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Suns Response to Microsoft
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23-08-2001 10:56am#1
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A fair arguement Kealan, but...<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kayos:
Sorry to say this but Sun wants the exact same thing. Microsoft change Java a bit and bang Sun sue them saying there not allowed. Surelly its through change that technologies improve Sun migh know this but they can not accuse MS of trying to control java when thats exactly what they are doing.</font>
HELLO!?!?!? That's complete toss - Java (last time I looked) was not open source and as such, the only people who have a right to change it are Sun. MS deserved the court time on this issue and your saying that MS shouldn't have been sued shows your complete biased opinion
Microsuck deliberatly tried not to take control, but to dominate someone elses good idea and they were (quite rightly) punished for it.
Anyway. The rest of your arguement is rock solid and I can only think of one reason - Java is indeed the language of choice for most colleges I know and while students and developers are indeed going to download a JVM, Joe Soap Student might write something and can't distribute it as Freeware because he can't include the Microsoft Copyright JVM along with it. Maybe there'll be licencing issues within colleges because they have XP and unlicenced JVM's (or something daft like that - you can see my point without needing exact details).
Solution:
I think MS should include runtimes for all the popular languages - Java, VB, C, C++ etc..
All the best!
Dav
@B^)
So Bob Hoskins was about to roll a spliff when in walks Dana with her 3 foot Bong
[honey i] violated [the kids]
When the Beefy King arrives, I shall be paying homage with Puunack The Receiver in a haze of green curry.0 -
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
HELLO!?!?!? That's complete toss - Java (last time I looked) was not open source and as such, the only people who have a right to change it are Sun. MS deserved the court time on this issue and your saying that MS shouldn't have been sued shows your complete biased opinion
</font>
Right what I was saying here was meant to be read as follows Sun are complaining about MS tring to control java and that MS doesn't like the openess of Java again I quote
Sun are the ones that control it and they even comment on Javas openess. But surely if was open third parties would be allowed alter and improve upon the Language. Basiclly Sun wanted MS to stay away from Java and they have they have totaly dropped it. Only now Sun realise that without MS to blame they are the fall guys and they now have to support a Windows JVM. Also as an aside I seem to remember some saying to me that the MS JVM was one of the fastest around but I honestly dont know. Also you remember westons problem with JDBC he could not get a JDBC driver for his project without paying for it. While MS will give ODBC drivers away without a penny crossing hands be the driver for professional or student use. I'm not talking as a MS head here so dont call be Biased.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Microsoft wants to control the innovation and openness that java technology promotes
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thank you for the complament, being the stubborn SOB that you are it means my post was really good cause I know how anti MS you are.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Anyway. The rest of your arguement is rock solid
</font><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
...and I can only think of one reason - Java is indeed the language of choice for most colleges I know and while students and developers are indeed going to download a JVM, Joe Soap Student might write something and can't distribute it as Freeware because he can't include the Microsoft Copyright JVM along with it. Maybe there'll be licencing issues within colleges because they have XP and unlicenced JVM's (or something daft like that - you can see my point without needing exact details).
</font>
I think you've totaly missed the point here there will no longer be a MS JVM and the Sun one is free so thats not going to stop ppl making freeware. You would honeslty think Sun would be happy with people using their JVM. They are taking back control of Java, as I said they wanted MS to back off and MS are doing what they asked.
You muppet can you imagine the untold amount of steaming **** that would cause. Installing all these files would cause untold amount of security risks mainly thinking of VBS here. Anyway I'm open to anyones point of view to try and make me see Suns side of things. And also Al j00 mupp3t whats your opnion on all this....<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Solution:
I think MS should include runtimes for all the popular languages - Java, VB, C, C++ etc..
</font>
BTW Kix forget the lunch money .Net is robbing the pig*** bank
kayos
When you get to hell tell them I sent you,
you'll get a group discount...
tribes.gameshop.ie0 -
Oh No here comes Java biased Java guy PHOBOS!
Kealan those were fair points that you mentioned. But you've rambled on so much I had to go back and read seamus's original post just so I could remember what the hell we are on about.
I agree that MS don't have to include support for Java in their new OS's but I think thats a big mistake from a development perspective (over user one). A lot of the mega J2EE Enterprise systems that are in use by (the Fortune 500, I hear you say), are bound to have their clients hosted on an MS platform. The kind of power that you can command with the Java language is incredible. I'm not saying that the likes of the .NET family can't do similar, but with Java you gain more flexibility, from a platform perspective. It's only now since the introduction of J2ME, Sun is finally getting back on track of what they initially set out to do with Java. Now I know when we start talking about embeded techonology such as phones and stuff, it doesn't have anything to do with MS. But wait and see, I bet that MS will soon realise the potential of wireless and release some kind of OS for the 3G platform. Eventhough right now we're do that with Java.
One thing that I will promote MS for is that, YES!, we probably would be still in stone age computing if it wasn't for them. Because of them non techies can get a piece of the action. But by removing support for Java from their OS, it is denying the non-technical (or couldn't be arsed) person from using the power of Java computing on their systems.
Now if I were to write some small freeware software in Java and want a public release, I would distribute a Sun JVM with it. So the person wouldnt need to bother downloading it. I can see this happening with Java products more so, when XP gets properly released.
I do agree with Dav, that MS do want complete control over Java. If you remember all those years ago, MS didn't have any software that connected to the web. The internet was just something that they didn't bother with. So along came Netscape and developed a web browser that enabled clients access remote HTTP servers and browse the web. This was a great idea, and everybody had Netscape clients. Then MS decided they wanted a piece of the action, so they tried to dominate the web, by forcing IE on everybody. Once again an example of an idea that wasn't theirs, and in they come and try to dominate the market.
Al, where the fuk are you man!
;-phobos-)0 -
Lots Originally posted by kayos:
Sorry to say this but Sun wants the exact same thing. Microsoft change Java a bit and bang Sun sue them saying there not allowed.
Yea, it's this crazy thing called "Standards" that MS try to change. If you have fixed standards on how things work and you as a company change that standard then lock out your competitors then it destroys the whole aspect of what is Java.
Sun migh know this but they can not accuse MS of trying to control java when thats exactly what they are doing.
Well Sun own Java so I guess they can tell MS to go screw themselves if the want.
They are not providing, for want of a better term runtime files/VM for Java in their OS anymore.
That's correct and actually that was a good thing because MS JVM is so prehistoric I'm glad it's got dumped.
However IE have changed thier latest browser to stop it working with NS plugins, which I think Java is as well. So I think Sun will have to write a wrapper? (I'm not too versed on what was happening there).
But the funny thing is they dont provide runtimes for VB in their OS's
They don't have to, it can either be downloaded or most packaged VB apps have the files in them. Don't think it's one of the most used languages though?
Microsoft are getting a raw going over these days due to including things in their OS and forcing ppl to use them.
Yea loosing freedom to choose tends to do that to people.
To be honest what is happening here imho is Sun have just soiled their undergarmends to rob a term from Dav.*snip*
Not at all. While Sun did blow it up a bit that "MS is being bad!" when it was actually a good thing, MS dropping Java in thier browser does not kill Java. Might kill those crappy pop-up adverts that try to do nasty things.
JVM still downloads in XP as far as I know, but means having to download it every single time you update your system.
and thats applets but they died a death years ago.
Applets are still very much alive. Just thankfully crappy 3 months experience bouncy ball Java applets.
What Sun are really saying here is this ok windows is starting to catch up on Unix for preformance and stabilty
Buhahaha!
W9* are steaming piles of dog poo. W2K + NT on the other hand are extremly stable.
Windows looses on the server end but is winning on the Client side end. That will change/is changing. Linix is a long long way from the days of a console interface.
(I have never seen a BSOD in Win2K).
I have, but you really have to try hard to do it.
Windows is an easier enviroment for people to use.
Not true. It's all to do with what your used to. I play with a lot of different OS. I would say KDE (Linux GUI) is just as easy to use as Windows. I would say the Mac OS is probably the easiest to use of the three.
Just lok at the companies these year Sun have asked their employees not to surf the net and they have had two week shut down have MS???
Well it's all cost saving to make Quarters for your share holders. In case you didn't notice the US is in a massive recession. Also comparing a Sun to MS is like comparing a coffee shop to a supermarket. Sure the supermarket sells coffee, might not be as good as the coffee shop, but they sell other stuff too.
Microsoft have every right not to supply a piece of third party software with there OS.
Also MS HAVE hit the jackpot with .NET.
.NET sucks for so many reasons.
Sun are acting like kids when MS tried to play ball with them they took the ball away and told mammy that MS were bold and now that MS dont want to play with them their cring.
More like MS took Suns ball painted it a different color then got upset when Sun wanted thier ball back.
MS are no angels but they have given so much to the IT sector.
Like?
If it wasn't for MS we would still be in the dark ages and using a computer would be a black art
Doubtful, considering Apple where making nicer machines before MS. I thought it was more to do with the court case that IBM was in? and MS getting luckly owning the license to the OS?
But speaking of dark ages and MS. I recall reading in the findings of Fact that Intel built this really cool Multimedia software that was years ahead of anything else (which they were going to release for free) and MS had it killed by threatening to not support Intel, simply because they saw the software as threat.
Right just to summerise I think Sun are being like ickle kids because MS wont ship suns run time files with a MS product.
The JVM has never been Suns? It was a MS JVM which had to follow a standard laid out by Sun in order to be certified.0 -
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OK Hobbes now that swhat I call a long post so heres my reply...
They don't have to, it can either be downloaded or most packaged VB apps have the files in them. Don't think it's one of the most used languages though?
Why dont they package up the JVM as well so and stop complaining. As for being one of the most used langs check it out you will be surprised it is...
Well Sun own Java so I guess they can tell MS to go screw themselves if the want.
Well MS own windows so they can support what they want and sun can go screw themselfs and stop complaining about it
W9* are steaming piles of dog poo. W2K + NT on the other hand are extremly stable.
Windows looses on the server end but is winning on the Client side end. That will change/is changing. Linix is a long long way from the days of a console interface.
Yes Win 9* is crap and so is ME but NT and 2k are what I'm talking about here. I honestly dont know why you say windows looses out on the server end have you ever used/seen or read about WIN2K Datacenter Edition on a unisys box? Windows 2K and SQL2K out preform Orcale on Unix.
(I have never seen a BSOD in Win2K).
I have, but you really have to try hard to do it
Ok let me at a unix box and I bet I could get it to blow up. I wasn't talking about having to try really hard to do it I mean in the normal everyday world.
Windows is an easier enviroment for people to use.
Not true. It's all to do with what your used to. I play with a lot of different OS. I would say KDE (Linux GUI) is just as easy to use as Windows. I would say the Mac OS is probably the easiest to use of the three.
Ok maybe I put this wrong put a total newbie in front of a empty computer (be it alpha/PC/mac) and hand him the discs he needs to do a install of an OS(unix/linix/windows/Mac OS) dont give him the manuals and dont tell him anything. OK lets be nice make sure he knows how to get the cd working. Which OS will he have less problems with? I would say windows.
In case you didn't notice the US is in a massive recession
Ahhh I do know that and its all dubbys fault
Also comparing a Sun to MS is like comparing a coffee shop to a supermarket
Why??? Sun do software so do MS whats the difference? Sun are meant to have put the dot in dot com they sponser a F1 car they are as big as MS if not bigger. Why wont you compare them?
.NET sucks for so many reasons.
You have just done the one thing that really gets on my nerves.
Kid 1: "I dont like you"
Kid 2: "Why?"
Kid 1: "I just dont"
If you are going to say something back it up why do you think .Net sucks??? I'll tell you why its good imho. VB is fully OO and more powerful. C# is a very very nice language. The CLR is a very very nice idea. Its open so far there is ppl working on PHP/Perl/Java/cobol for .Net and a free BSD CLR
More like MS took Suns ball painted it a different color then got upset when Sun wanted thier ball back.
And now they have it back they found out its not much fun playing on your own.
MS are no angels but they have given so much to the IT sector.
Like?
Ahhhhh easy to use software, the most popular OS for home PCs without windows most of todays IT sector would not have even started yet. And of course the big employer IT support jobs
The JVM has never been Suns? It was a MS JVM which had to follow a standard laid out by Sun in order to be certified.
Ok I'll rephrase I think Sun are being like ickle kids because MS wont develop/support/distrubute run time files which support a third party language with a MS product.
Sun have a windows JVM. A more up to date, extra functionality and faster and cleaner JVM.
I never siad they had to develop one I know they have one but what I said was they now have to support it and that adds a overhead
I'm not an expert on DB's, but isn't ODBC just a bridge to other DB's to allow you to program a common language which you must pay for? For example, I could use ODBC to write a program to connect to a DB2 server but I would still need a license for DB2?
Ok ODBC allows you to connect to a DB be that DB SQL/access/orcale/db2/excel/textfile any DB that has a ODBC driver and nearly all of them do. I was not saying that with ODBC everything was free but the ODBC drivers are unlike the JDBC drivers. If you were in college and the college had a DB2 server and Java development tools but did not have a JDBC driver to allow the students to develop apps to talk to the DB2 database the college must then pay for that driver. But ODBC is free...
kayos
When you get to hell tell them I sent you,
you'll get a group discount...
tribes.gameshop.ie0 -
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Hmmm....
Sorry Weston, but I won't be responding from my current location...
bbl.
Al.0 -
Why dont they package up the JVM as well...
They do. As I mentioned Sun's post is a bit of scaremongering. There is nothing that can stop you from downloading Java. However the way XP is set up (and the new IE) it makes it extremly painful to download and run (if possible). But we are just talking about Browser.
MS have gone as far as making it so Java can't be linked into thier latest browser.
As for being one of the most used langs check it out you will be surprised it is...
No. I would say the most used would be C/C++. Unless your just talking about Windows in which case I would probably still C++.
Well MS own windows so they can support what
Oh so I pay $100 for a lets say a Acme wordprocessor. Microsoft changed thier Operating system so it no longer works, but thier wordprocessor does. Is that fair?
I honestly dont know why you say windows looses out on the server end have you ever used/seen or read about WIN2K Datacenter Edition on a unisys box? Windows 2K and SQL2K out preform Orcale on Unix.
Large (Fortune 500) don't use NT as thier main servers, they tend to use mainframes. Apache is more popular then IIS.
Ok let me at a unix box and I bet I could get it to blow up.
Yes, if you had root access. You might find it a lot harder to blow up if you didn't.
I wasn't talking about having to try really hard to do it I mean in the normal everyday world.
Oh in normal everyday world I'd say Unix is better. Actually I would say AS/400 is more stable then the two of them.
But please lets distingush between "Home use" and "Business use".
Ok maybe I put this wrong put a total newbie in front of a empty computer
Have you tried to install the latest version of Redhat recently? I assure you it is as easy or easier then Windows to install. Even without manuals. Try it.
Likewise with Corel Linux (which I installed on another box over a year ago). It's installer was very easy to use.
Certainly an idiot could install it.
Mac comes pre-installed and what idiot lets a complete newbie install an OS anyway?
Which OS will he have less problems with? I would say windows.
I would say the Mac and then Windows/Linux equal. Remember if the newbie has never used windows they are going to be screaming "WHERES MY C DRIVE?!!" when they are installing linux.
Why???
Sun and microsoft are not the same company. They don't offer the same services, they may offer services in certain areas but they don't certainly don't sell the same products across the board.
with that in mind it is easy to leverage your sales of one product to get a foothold in another field (re: MS giving IE away for free)
You have just done the one thing that really gets on my nerves.
.NET sucks because it is designed for the newbie in mind (something while Apple have been doing for years btw).
However a lot of what they have done goes against what I consider fair. It could make brekfest every morning but if that meant that the OS would purposely destroy files that it considers I shouldn't have then I don't see why I should give up my freedoms I currently have.
VB is fully OO and more powerful. C# is a very very nice language.
Erm, they are programming languages not part of an operating system.
And now they have it back they found out its not much fun playing on your own.
LOL. They have had the ball back for years. MS gave it back and pretty much dropped updating Java a long time ago. That's why the MS JVM sucks donkeys nads and the current version of Java is even used to program OpenGL based FPS games.
Ahhhhh easy to use software, the most popular OS for home PCs without windows most of todays IT sector would not have even started yet. And of course the big employer IT support jobs
Your mixing home pc's up with office pc's again. IT sector has been around a long long time before Windows ever appeared.
It is the most popular home Operating System because there is no other choice for anyone? Windows is preloaded, so unless the person is somewhat savvy in what a computer is they are going stay with whats on the machine.
Easy Software? Have you ever sat a person who has never used a computer before in front of windows and tell them to write a letter? Easy in what way?
DOS based software from years back was just as easy to use as windows software.
But you didn't really answer my question.
Ok I'll rephrase I think Sun are being like ickle kids because
Well the runtime was actually MS that they dropped.
I said was they now have to support it and that adds a overhead
They have already been supporting it? I'm confused. Do you mean they will have to update thier software everytime MS make changes to thier browser that *accidently* break thier JVM? In which case I agree with you.
Ok ODBC allows you to connect to a DB...
Ok so we agree on that. ODBC is nothing but a bridge between Windows and other 3rd party databases (which people have to pay for).
If you were in college and the college had a DB2 server and Java development tools but did not have a JDBC driver to allow the students to develop apps to talk to the DB2 database the college must then pay for that driver. But ODBC is free...
Erm? Are you sure? According to Suns site I can download JDBC and use it free. It also supports ODBC which means you can do JDBC-ODBC-DB2 (assuming you can't go JDBC-DB2).
Can someone who uses JDBC confirm this?
Btw, kind of funny that I agreed with you on some points and you took them as an attack.
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Pirates of Silicon valley is kind of hollywood'ish though. Still fun to watch.
There is a TV series called "revenge of nerds" or something like that (not the movie). They interview everyone who was big during those years. It's pretty cool to watch.
The DOS was made by one guy who was out for the day when IBM called to buy it. Either it was because they wouldn't wait or the fact he hated IBM (like MS in those days) they didn't get it. Then MS came and bought it and sold to IBM.
The series is good because it's the only time you'll see a guy from MS openly admit they screwed the guy out of serious amounts of cash and knew it (all legal though).
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Right... me rolls up his sleeves<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kayos:
See its not just me who thinks Sun are soiling their undergramends
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/21285.html
If you look at the closing line it echos one of my points
</font>
Wow, "The Register"? If they said it it must be true...
Ok, just so as to take a particular example (and not do that think that so annoys you)<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally from The Register:
Sun does appear to have a co-ordinated anti-Microsoft policy. It has proved that it can and will resort to litigation.</font>
What kind of tripe is that? I'm wondering whether to laugh or cry at the stupidy of this. If one business signs a contract, breaks it, and gets sued wtf have they got to complain about? He's harping on here in some "poor little M$" vein. Get real!
Sun is a very diverse company, and sells hardware, operating systems, server and client-side applications amongst other things. (it's not as big as M$ though, who is still about 1/5 the size of IBM (which is smaller financially admittedly)). Sun is a competitor to M$ in quite a few markets, e.g. the server OS market (Sol8 vs NT/Win2K), the web back-end market (JSP vs ASP etc). Of course they have a fricking anti-M$ strategy!! Dunnes Stores have an anti-Quinnsworth strategy for gawd sake, thats what business is about. But you shouldn't have to hurt your customers or break the law to do business.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Hobbes:
The DOS was made by one guy who was out for the day when IBM called to buy it. Either it was because they wouldn't wait or the fact he hated IBM (like MS in those days) they didn't get it. Then MS came and bought it and sold to IBM.
</font>
IBM really missed the boat on that one, fools... MS still laugh at them, and who could blame them.<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Enygma:
As for Suns response I think it's basically petty and immature, even if they have every right to so it. A company shouldn't become successful by dissing its rivals.
</font>
Ok, just to be clear, I am assuming that you have not read this: http://www.microsoft.com/java/issues/openletter.htm
Surely in that light, Suns response is perfectly justified.
Should a company become successful by doing the following -- changing standards (both public and proprietary) (ie Java, html, the list is endless), destroying competitors by forcing them out of the market (ie Netscape), by threatening PC manufacturers unless they bundle your OS (ie Dell, Compaq etc), by refusing to support standards if they don't like them (ie POSIX -- imagine how easy porting apps would be if they decided to support this back when they were developing NT? Hey Dav, remember The Boss? That question for the M$ muppet ... he couldn't answer )
Anyway, back to the 2nd part of that: dissing its rivals? This is Scott McNealy we're talking about, the acknowledged tech sector King of the Sound-byte Of course he's going to diss MS. He spoke against them at the *anti-trust* case for gawd sake! <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Hugh:
Sun have a reason to be angry, but why should Microsoft include it ?
BTW, what is this . NET thing ? Or is it obvious and Im slow ?
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M$ should include it because in dropping it they are dropping the most popular platform for new code development (someone post the link for that will ya please).
Read more of McNealys take on it
Just don't post any more of that Register crap, please!
Alo.0 -
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Hobbes:
There is a TV series called "revenge of nerds" or something like that (not the movie). They interview everyone who was big during those years. It's pretty cool to watch.
</font>
Yeah that was called "Triumph of the Nerds" and was on Channel 4 a couple of years ago. I saw it and yes it was better than POSV. I always remember watching it at a friends house one night when I was younger (during a sleep over). I was glued to the screen while it was on. When it ended I looked around the room and everyone else had fallen asleep. Lightweights
I have been trying to get this on video everywhere, but no joy. I would love if they showed it on TV again.
;-phobos-)0 -
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Cheers m8,
But that link points to Amazon in the US (which has the NTSC version, no good over here). But I had a quick look @ .co.uk and they had it, in all of PAL's glory. Cheaper too with 2 tapes. Christ it was made in 1996, that reminds me of a time when C programming was my life (*sniff*)
;-phobos-)0 -
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OK OK the Reg might not be the best place to gain news but they are not shy of slating MS themselfs...<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Ok, just to be clear, I am assuming that you have not read this: http://www.microsoft.com/java/issues/openletter.htm
Surely in that light, Suns response is perfectly justified.
</font>
Ahhh I think your putting the cart before the donkey here that letter was in responce to the Sun Open Letter and the ads in the American national press.... So surely in that light MS's response is perfectly justified...........
If you want to find out about .NET try http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/nextgen/default.asp
But just to give you a quick run down of some features- Common Runtime Libary (CLR) between all Langs (VB/VC/C#/Perl/Phyton/Cobol/Java and more)
- Portability as code is just compiled to byte code and the CLR then compiles on the fly on the taget platform.
- Third Party Langs can be written into .NET ie someone could write smalltalk for .NET
- No more DLL Hell for Com developers
- VB is now fully OO
And Al your one to talk you Sun muppet you..
kayos
When you get to hell tell them I sent you,
you'll get a group discount...
tribes.gameshop.ie0 -
This is odd, almost 30 posts and it hasn't degenerated into a flame-fest
Should a company become successful by doing the following -- changing standards (both public and proprietary) (ie Java, html, the list is endless), destroying competitors by forcing them out of the market (ie Netscape), by threatening PC manufacturers unless they bundle your OS (ie Dell, Compaq etc), by refusing to support standards if they don't like them (ie POSIX -- imagine how easy porting apps would be if they decided to support this back when they were developing NT?
Agreed, absolutely, but it still doesn't justify Suns response in my opinion. Sun should be concentrating on getting Vendors like Dell etc. to install the newest JVM during manufacturing. They should also be working on streamlining the update process.
.NET looks like an extension of the Java principle.
Java - write once, run anywhere.
.NET - write once (in almost any language), run anywhere.
That right? Sounds cool.0 -
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