Increasing tensions between China-Japan

Rossonero

China and Japan had fallen out over Japan's war stance, but tensions have been increased.
Japan are complaining about China extracting natural gas on a piece of coast they say belongs to them.
There have been violent protests in China against the Japanese.

Sponge Bob

We Know . Anything else ?

sceptre

It probably won't turn into a discussion unless you've got some views on it Rossonero. Unless someone else has.

Hobbes

Its not just that. Recently school books in Japan appear to be 'adjusted' to paint Japan in a nicer light. Korea and China are annoyed over it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4411771.stm

Not that China can actually complain, it gets up to the same thing. Come to think of it most countries do.

aodh_rua

Isn't the natural gas thing that Japan have started selling exploitation rights to reserves China claims are on its territory.

From news.bbc.co.uk

On Wednesday, Japan further angered China by issuing drilling rights for oil and gas in a disputed area of the East China Sea.

Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Qin Gang called the decision a "serious provocation to the rights of China and the norm of international relations".

Here's the link if you want the whole story - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4447251.stm

patto_chan

I lived and worked in Japan for most of the 90s. The school history books argument would surface every year or two. Liberal elements in the education establishment would complain that the country was not being open about its history but would be over-ruled or ignored.

No, I don't think Japan has come to terms with its recent history. WW2 is like an unpleasant memory they want to leave behind.
Whereas Germany was involved in the EEC/NATO and this aided post-war reconcilliation Japan was isolated from its neighbours by cold war politics.

But no matter how many apologies are made now I don't think it will ease relations as it is all about who is going to be the dominant nation in East Asia in the future. China's star is rising while Japan seems to have plateaued for the last decade.

It is China's interest to have these demos just about the time Japan is campaigning for a seat on an expanded UN security council. Try organising a demo in Shanghai to complain about the appaling air quality and pollution and see how much encouragement you'd get from the authorities. You'd be in jail very, very quickly. Remember China is not a democracy.

Victor

Ultimately it's sabre rattling that won't go very far and both sides will settle for an honourable truce.

Actually there were pollution complaints in China recently and it did get public support, not that the official media gave them much credence, but China is gradually ... very gradually ... is moving towards a position where people are held accountable.

elvenscout742

Anyone else hear about these? Have an opinion?

I think China should just get over what happened in the past, and move on. Sure, what the Japanese troops did ... what, 60 years ago? 70? ... was bad, but it's not worth staying mad at them forever. And since it was so long ago, I don't think it justifies some of the atrocities I've read protesters in Beijing were committing (throwing bricks at restaurants, yelling things like "Come out, come out, little Japanese whores" and the like). It sounded almost like one of these KKK lynch mob things from the twenties or something.

The Saint

elvenscout742 wrote:

I think China should just get over what happened in the past, and move on. Sure, what the Japanese troops did ... what, 60 years ago? 70? ... was bad, but it's not worth staying mad at them forever. QUOTE]
Obviously you are not well up on Japanese attrocities in China or the rest of the Asia/Pacific region during WWII. Should the Jews just get over the Holocaust?

daveirl

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D-Generate

They should just forget the Rape of Nanking? They should forget Unit 731? You must be joking. They haven't apologised for either of those and no body has ever been brought to trial for the Unit 731 experiments even though they were so horrifying and so wrong even in war.
Japan has never owned up to their atrocities during WW2 and the Western World has heard of very few of them. Its ironic that Japan trying to sweep them under the carpet has opened up the publics eyes so much more.

Chong

The Saint wrote:

elvenscout742 wrote:

I think China should just get over what happened in the past, and move on. Sure, what the Japanese troops did ... what, 60 years ago? 70? ... was bad, but it's not worth staying mad at them forever. QUOTE]
Obviously you are not well up on Japanese attrocities in China or the rest of the Asia/Pacific region during WWII. Should the Jews just get over the Holocaust?

My sentiments exactly what a total moron.

daveirl

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mike65

You're all missing the point I think. This is'nt really about Japans failure to face up to its record of aggression against China in the 20th century. Its about Japans political ambitions for the 21st century. China is suddenly a big noise again after centuries in slumber while Japan is seeking to flex its muscles in a way not seen since its humbling in 1945.

Japan has serious intentions be become a permenant member of the UN Security Council and that alone is pissing China off. It seem the two are going to be engaging in a "Who can pee higher" contest for several decades to come.

The way the Beijing authorities have handled the protests and riots is interesting. One the one hand they are happy enough to see Japan under critical scrutiny on the other they are scared of the protests running out of control and turning into another 1989. The riots have got almost no official media coverage while old anti Japan movies play on the TV.

Mike.

sceptre

Willem D wrote:

My sentiments exactly what a total moron.

Take a week off and read the rules before you post here again please.

sceptre

Threads merged. One thread tended towards coherency a little more than the other so in this new combined thread I'm sort of hoping for something coherent lest it be closed.

elvenscout742

I am quite familiar with some of the atrocities of the Imperial Japanese Army, and I am appalled by them. That does not mean I think people should forever hold grudges about things like this and not just move on to a better future. Japan isn't suddenly going to start slaughtering Chinese again (and if it was I don't think Heika Tennō would be an appropriate scapegoat - his father certainly wasn't :mad: ). The hostile actions of some of these protesters are an issue of the present; the hostile actions of Japan's army are an issue of the past. If any of ye don't agree that the world would be a better place if people would just make peace, then...

D-Generate wrote:

They should just forget the Rape of Nanking? They should forget Unit 731? You must be joking.

I was careful not to use the word "forget". I said "get over". You know... "don't hold a grudge", "let by-gones be by-gones", etc., etc.. They're as free to remember what the Japanese did as the Jews are to remember what the Nazis did, but you don't see the Jews trying to make the Germans put together their history books so as to paint all Germans as evil villains each as individually responsible for the Third Reich as Hitler himself.

The Saint wrote:

Should the Jews just get over the Holocaust?

Well, if the Jews ever started picking out and attacking Germans simply for being members of the same ethnicity as those who brought about the Holocaust, or even attacking fellow Jews for working in German companies, yes, I would indeed be saying that.

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

What about all those people tried and executed for war crimes? And what about poor old Shōwa Tennō, whom many wanted to bear the whole brunt for those atrocities, which, while sickening, were by no means ordered by him? Maybe Japan should put more emphasis on what it did, but you don't see Chinese history books focusing on their own cultural imperialism in Japan, and Japan doesn't hold that against them, precisely because it was such a very long time ago (a much longer time ago than the 30s, but still...).

netwhizkid

It looks dangerous to me, i think japans ticked off at chinas increasing afflunence and economic power. The whole area is a tenderbox, Bush squaring up to North Korea, China threatning Taiwan and now Japan and China begining a war of words. I think that things could out of control very quickly, and if does america can't intervene very easily being bogged down in Iraq and Europe dosen't care or want to. I don't know but i think there should be economic sanction but on China as they are flaunting human rights plus at the rate its going there shall be nothing manufactured outside of china anymore eg. MG/Rover , those jobs would be as good in Europe/US as they would be over there plus worker exploitation is rife in china.

My tuppence worth,

Regards netwhizkid

elvenscout742

Hobbes wrote:

Not that China can actually complain, it gets up to the same thing. Come to think of it most countries do.

At last, someone who agrees with me! It's not like Japan is the only country that does it.

Victor

mike65 wrote:

One the one hand they are happy enough to see Japan under critical scrutiny on the other they are scared of the protests running out of control and turning into another 1989.

I think this is more 1999-style (post Belgrade Embassey bombing) rioting than 1989-style. It is like a tap that can be turned on and off officially.

daveirl

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elvenscout742

Oh, you seem to misunderstand. I was defending my view by pointing out that I had not said the Chinese should forget everything. I then said the Chinese are perfectly free to remember what the Japanese did to them back then, as long as they don't start attacking random Japanese now over it.

Sand

Oh, you seem to misunderstand. I was defending my view by pointing out that I had not said the Chinese should forget everything. I then said the Chinese are perfectly free to remember what the Japanese did to them back then, as long as they don't start attacking random Japanese now over it.

Youre missing the point with your comparison - the Japanese have never fully confronted the actions of their armies throughout Asia, certainly not on the scale that the Germans have confronted the actions of the Nazis against the Jews. They're not entirely alone in that - the Chinese view of their own history blatantly ignores the tens of millions killed by the Communists. However, that doesnt exscuse the wilful ignorance of the Japanese.

What enraged the Chinese - understandbly - is the whitewashing of history by Japan where it pretends Unit 731, which rivals the Nazis experiments on concentration camp prisoners, didnt happen or isnt worthy of note. The Rape of Nanking isnt remembered as a massacre of 300,000 civillians but as an "incident" brought about by the stiff resistance of the Chinese army!

The Chinese remember what was done to them by the Japanese, they dont need anyones permission to remember. But the Japanese should also remember what happened. Otherwise, what are they learning from their history? Yes, youre correct, the protests shouldnt stray into violence - and its clear the Chinese government became alarmed at how the demonstrations were moving out of control.

That alarm seems to have done a fair bit to motivate the kiss and makeup were seeing now. Hopefully, when the two premiers meet at the Asian summit theyll be able to patch up some deal whereby China compensates Japanese firms for damages in the riots and Japan revises the history books - again, and makes some statement of recognition of the actions of the Imperial army. When tempers cool, the economic reality of Sino-Japanese links and Japans desire to at least win Chinas agreement not to oppose their bid for Security Council membership should win out.

I think the events of the past few weeks demonstrates that when the Communist party falls, the political enviroment in China will be charged with nationalism - and possibly militant nationalism at that.

elvenscout742

Well, I've never read a Japanese history book so I'm not certain on the specifics, but I'm quite sure that many Japanese at least are aware that the Imperial Army did some atrocious things (otherwise, why would Koizumi have done this?).

(BTW, I personally think Junichiro Koizumi should be allowed visit Yasukuni Jinja. He's not doing it just to annoy people, or to worship class-A war criminals. He does it to honour one of his relatives, who died defending his country.)

Quantum

daveirl wrote:

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This is right on the money.
Japanese society is based on honour and doesn't deal with shame at all well, to say the least.
Germany did great things to face up to their actions, and have faced up to them ever since - some would say more than they need to.
Japan is stubbornly trying to gloss over the past, in China, Korea and south asia.

Also I think that China's dictator party has been looking for something to focus the attention of their people on and away from freedom thoughts.
They organised the first demonstration along these lines, but it got out of hand and they found they had started a fire storm.

The Japanese response was as usual completely confused. The PM 'almost' apologised, but then the governing party's MPs went to the very controversial cemetary yet again, knowing how inflamatory it is. And until they do someting about the education system and it's history books, nothing will change.

Manach

And yet there seems to have been muted to non-existant protests by other countrys in the region and in Hong Kong. Would it not be the case that Japan to-day is militarily quiet whilst Mainland China is building up a large oceanic naval and pursuing territorial claims (eg its recent anti-Taiwan independence law) - akin to the Imperial policy of Japan in the 20s and 30s.
This is the country that the EU are preparing to allow arms sales.

Victor

Manach wrote:

Would it not be the case that Japan to-day is militarily quiet whilst Mainland China is building up a large oceanic naval

The PLAN (People Liberation Army Navy) is a long way from being an oceanic force and even pacifist Japan out-guns it's navy substantially.

and pursuing territorial claims (eg its recent anti-Taiwan independence law) -

As are Japan, Vietnam, Phillipines and various other countries.

Oh, remember we have similar disputes with the UK and Denmark. But no one is screaming "OMG. teh V1k1ng5 are teh c0m1ng.

akin to the Imperial policy of Japan in the 20s and 30s.

So who have the Chinese actually invaded recently?


This is the country that the EU are preparing to allow arms sales.[/QUOTE]

Manach

China has in recent months aquired 23 amphibious assault vessels, 13 attack subs and commisioned the first in a new class of nuclear-powered subs - hardly the act of a , pacific fleet.

Perhaps we in Ireland don't have much to fear from the Danes, apart from their lager, but the Danes are not at present surpressing minorites, unlike muslim areas in the west of China.

Victor

Manach wrote:

China has in recent months aquired 23 amphibious assault vessels, 13 attack subs and commisioned the first in a new class of nuclear-powered subs - hardly the act of a , pacific fleet.

Details?

Manach

Newsweek - 25 April: They wrote a segment on the Japan/China.

Thankfully at present, events seem to be cooling off - till the next time anyway.