Head phones while cycling got facts?

MorningStar

I know many people flip out about cyclists wearing head phones while on the roads. I have heard all the opinions on this view about car sound and how cyclists can still hear blah, blah, blah ...
Anyway has anybody got actual information? I am not looking for opinion pieces but actual facts. I don't mind what view the facts support I just want the facts. I have tried searching the net but strangely I haven't found any facts saying one way or the other.

rob1891

got this article off google:

http://www.headwize.com/articles/jallen1_art.htm

Kind of interesting, I cycle, I would have disapproved of wearing headphones but without giving it much thought. Is it banned? This guys reasoning seems 'sound' (heh heh). Not sure what kinds of facts you are looking for, but he briefly presents some information about the sound insulating properties of the types of headphones available.

Should drivers enjoy the distration of a radio if cyclists are not ...

MorningStar

Weird I read that before on a different web site and I think it had a different author. Either way it's an opinion piece while it all appears reasonable it's not fact. I have had people say you shouldn't wear headphones while cycling because of "common sense"! Without facts neither view can be considered right. I think that article is particularly good at pointing out the flaws in a ban without facts.

Kingsize

I used to do it years ago before helmets were widely available & overhead headphones were the norm. but i wouldnt now there are far more cars on the road & the standard of driving is sh-it .
i actually find having the headphones in my ear & worrying about dropping the walkman/ipod a distraction & an annoyance more so than loud music.
interesting point about radios in cars though i would imagine its a lot safer to be a deaf driver though than a deaf cyclist.

scargill

I've never really understood the argument about not wearing headphones while cycling. I usually wear them while out cycling.
I can't hear any less than I can when I'm in the car listening to the radio ?

And I don't really see headlines like.....'Yet another deaf cyclist killed today...'

Kingsize

Yeah by a blind motorist

MorningStar

Kingsize wrote:

I used to do it years ago before helmets were widely available & overhead headphones were the norm. but i wouldnt now there are far more cars on the road & the standard of driving is sh-it .
i actually find having the headphones in my ear & worrying about dropping the walkman/ipod a distraction & an annoyance more so than loud music.
interesting point about radios in cars though i would imagine its a lot safer to be a deaf driver though than a deaf cyclist.

I really am looking for facts because everybody has personal experience that gives them a view or a theory on what the danger is or is not.

Zaph0d

maybe this is useful to you:
(author claims headphones ain't so bad): http://www.headwize.com/articles/jallen1_art.htm

on the other hand, deductive logic tells you-
-hearing is an important sense for cyclists as they lack rear-view mirrors
-headphones reduce sense of hearing and distract the cyclist
-so...headphones increase the risk of cyclist accident
-cyclists come off worse in collisions with motor vehicles
-cyclists are overtaken many times by vehicles travelling at high speeds
-so...cyclists who wish to avoid death or serious injury shouldn't use headphones

MorningStar

Zaph0d wrote:

maybe this is useful to you:
(author claims headphones ain't so bad): http://www.headwize.com/articles/jallen1_art.htm

on the other hand, deductive logic tells you-
-hearing is an important sense for cyclists as they lack rear-view mirrors
-headphones reduce sense of hearing and distract the cyclist
-so...headphones increase the risk of cyclist accident
-cyclists come off worse in collisions with motor vehicles
-cyclists are overtaken many times by vehicles travelling at high speeds
-so...cyclists who wish to avoid death or serious injury shouldn't use headphones

Maybe you should read threads before posting. Your deductive logic also means nothing because you are basing it on the assumption cyclists hearing helps them . The article you posted (alreday posted earlier) even questions that assumption. I am looking for facts because people assume dangers yet have no proof. "Common sense" and deductive logic has created old wives tales and some equally stupid scientific theory.

Zaph0d

MorningStar wrote:

Your deductive logic also means nothing because you are basing it on the assumption cyclists hearing helps them . The article you posted (alreday posted earlier) even questions that assumption.

The author - a cycling enthusiast writing for a headphone enthusiasts web site - questions the extent of the usefulness of hearing to cyclists under various environmental conditions. If hearing really does not help cyclists at all then my conclusions are wrong. Everyone makes decisions for themselves about what's safe and unsafe and natural selection is the final arbiter.

snappieT

Pedestrians often wear headphones. And they play with fire by crossing the road with them on!

I feel the need at this point to make reference to the 'Cycle Radio' that attaches to your handlebars on sale in Lidl earlier this week.

Personally, when I do cycle, I listen to music. Just like a motorcyclist, a driver and a pedestrian.

leeroybrown

I never wear headphones while cycling (urban commuting mostly) as I believe that anything that could distract me or reduce my awareness is bad. Of course that is purely a matter of personal opinion and as there is no restriction preventing deaf people from driving or cycling normally I don't see why a cyclist shouldn't wear headphones so long as they doesn't distract them.

Also, someone pointed out that cyclists don't have rear view mirrors. I contend that we have something far better - a pivoting neck joint and a clear field of vision...

Kaboogie

Earphones whilst out cycling is really asking for trouble. How can you hear a morotist blow his horn at you? (they do keep beeping at you).
I have cycled through the 32 counties of Ireland without head phones.
Enjoy your cycle, be it for a leasure spin or for competitive reasons. :rolleyes:
I have done both and it is one of the best sports around. So dont start getting us more bad publicity, by listening to those silly LR stations.

cyclopath2001

MorningStar wrote:

I know many people flip out about cyclists wearing head phones while on the roads. I have heard all the opinions on this view about car sound and how cyclists can still hear blah, blah, blah ...
Anyway has anybody got actual information? I am not looking for opinion pieces but actual facts. I don't mind what view the facts support I just want the facts. I have tried searching the net but strangely I haven't found any facts saying one way or the other.

I can relate the facts of why having tried to cycle with headphones, I always cycle without.

I found they affected my concentration & balance. Not just hearing what was coming but being able to distinguish different sizes of vehicles so that I could start looking for escape routes if something big was coming up behind & not slowing. Hearing the boom-boxes of boy-racers in 1 litre Puntos. Listening for gear changes if I'm behind somebody.

Also handy to be able to hear a car starting to change down while overtaking & is preparing to cut-in. This saved me from a collision this evening after a lady in a Fiesta overtook, turned across my path & then stopped half-way into a left turn, blocking the cycle lane. Because I heard her changing down while she overtook, I was already preparing to take evasive action before she stopped.

She didn't apologise, never even acknowledged that her manouevre was illegal.

MorningStar

Hello!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I stated at the start of this thread and have repeated. I am looking for facts! Personal experience is not fact it's perception. I am not questioning anybodys' beliefs. Nobody knows better than anybody else here as there are no facts.

Zaph0d

Morningstar wrote:

the assumption cyclists hearing helps them

The International Journal of Rehabilitation Research has an article on the effect of hearing impairment on cyclists and pedestrians from March 2004. I don't have a URL but I have a copy of the article in front of me.

ijrr wrote:

43% had difficulties in detecting vehicles and 71% had difficulties detecting sounds and localisation. Half of the respondent group had difficulties in separating sounds from motor vehicles and buses.

the hearing-impaired are more vulnerable than others because they have difficulty in locating the sounds produced by cyclists and motorists (especially emergency vehicles, buses and lorries).

A New Zealand study of hearing impaired children concluded that their risk of injury as pedestrians was doubled by having a hearing impairment. http://ip.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/abstract/1/1/12

A Canadian study of factors predicting helmet usage amongst cyclists...
http://ip.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/5/3/183?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=headphones&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1113556416299_149&stored_search=&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=1&journalcode=injuryprev

The finding of 43 riders using headphones while riding may indicate an emerging safety issue for cyclists. The increasing popularity of headphones among teenagers and young adults may become problematic if use while cycling becomes widespread. Including this issue in a helmet promotion initiative may prevent a large scale problem from developing. This issue has not been addressed in other studies.

MorningStar

You are mashing various different information together to come up with information to match your theory. I don't think you can say a cyclist with head phone is equal to somebody with a hearing impairment. Stick on a pair of head phones on and see if you can still hear around you. I have heaphone on right now and I can hear the keys on the keyboard.
The last article doesn't actually state what the problem with having headphones are just that it's a worrying trend. Again it's an assumption that there is a danger without proof.
I am looking for a study about cyclist wearing heaphones and the actual dangers. So far it's all opinion or irrelivant detail. There may never have been a study done. I don't want to debate the subject I just want to know if there are any facts.

kenmc

Fact : I wear headphones while I cycle to work. I also ensure that the volume is not so loud that it drowns out whats around me. Actually the volume is at such a level that i can comfortably talk to someone whilst wearing my headphones. I also listen to music snowboarding. It's all MP3s, not some talk show or something where someone is likely to say something to make me laugh or react in any way - all music I like. I find it gives me a rhythm and makes the commute a bit less boring.

cyclopath2001

MorningStar wrote:

Hello!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I stated at the start of this thread and have repeated. I am looking for facts! Personal experience is not fact it's perception. I am not questioning anybodys' beliefs. Nobody knows better than anybody else here as there are no facts.

What I and others have related to you are facts. We relate facts about incidents and facts about the actions we took. These are not perceptions, these are facts.

If you want statistics or studies that interpret facts, then ask for them instead.

MorningStar

cyclopath2001 wrote:

What I and others have related to you are facts. We relate facts about incidents and facts about the actions we took. These are not perceptions, these are facts.

If you want statistics or studies that interpret facts, then ask for them instead.

I know why I started the the thread. You don't seem to understand what I am looking for. Yes I am looking for studies and statistics commonly refered to as facts. What people are stating is anicdotal (and studies that don't relate). If somebody says "I found they affected my concentration & balance" it isn't fact it's perception. If you fell over and said it was because they effected your balance it still wouldn't be fact it's your perception that they were the cause. The fact would be you fell over while wearing headphones and cycling your conclusion could be it was caused by the headphones but it still wouldn't be fact.
To a certain extent it is semantic but because somebody tells you a story about their feeling it is not fact. People over the legal limit can say it hasn't effected them! I am therfore looking for a study on the effects of cycling with headphones. I will gladdly take statistics or study proving people get in accidents due to head phones while cycling

I don't mean to be aggresive but I don't want to argue about the point I want to make a logical decision based on fact and I would hope that if there is a law in place it was done on the same basic idea


http://www.allwords.com/query.php?SearchType=3&Keyword=fact

http://www.allwords.com/query.php?SearchType=0&Keyword=perception

cyclopath2001

MorningStar wrote:

I am looking for studies and statistics commonly refered to as facts.

You've been given evidentiary facts and have dismissed them as being perceptions. Very existentialist.

I think that if you are looking for 'studies and statistics commonly refered to as facts', you are unlikely to be successful as, in road safety, the studies and statistics are themselves partly interpretations of facts and guesswork and amount to a perception as to what they represent.

For example, statistics/studies that purport to represent facts of death 'due to not wearing a helmet' would fall into this category.

If you do respect primary sources and omit to treat 'studies and statistics' with some cynicism, you will be misled.

DubTony

cyclopath2001 wrote:

I can relate the facts of why having tried to cycle with headphones, I always cycle without.

I found they affected my concentration & balance. Not just hearing what was coming but being able to distinguish different sizes of vehicles so that I could start looking for escape routes if something big was coming up behind & not slowing. Hearing the boom-boxes of boy-racers in 1 litre Puntos. Listening for gear changes if I'm behind somebody.

Also handy to be able to hear a car starting to change down while overtaking & is preparing to cut-in. This saved me from a collision this evening after a lady in a Fiesta overtook, turned across my path & then stopped half-way into a left turn, blocking the cycle lane. Because I heard her changing down while she overtook, I was already preparing to take evasive action before she stopped.

She didn't apologise, never even acknowledged that her manouevre was illegal.

I cycled as a kid and for the very reasons stated above I never used headphones. I think it also depends on what people listen to as they cycle and drive. (I guess I'm going off topic)

Many of the ads on radio today contain everyday sounds. I've lost count of the times I've heard a revving engine, a car horn and even an ambulance siren as I drive. A quick look in the mirror usually revealed nothing out of the ordinary and so I needed to look around to see if the noise was coming from nearby or if I could safely ignore it. It's a bit annoying after all that to realise that the sound's actually coming from the car radio. My radio only goes on in heavy traffic these days.

Cyclists obviously need to be more cautious when they hear these sounds, and the inability of some of them to look over their right shoulder without cycling into the middle of the road is frightening. I'd suggest that all road users need as few distractions as possible to ensure they can get around safely. It's getting worse out there.

Tony

DubTony

MorningStar wrote:

..... The fact would be you fell over while wearing headphones and cycling your conclusion could be it was caused by the headphones but it still wouldn't be fact. ..........

........I will gladdly take statistics or study proving people get in accidents due to head phones while cycling

How can the statistics or studies determine for sure that people get in accidents due to head phones while cycling when, according to your logic, they couldn't really know if the headphones were a factor in the accident.

Tony

MorningStar

cyclopath2001 wrote:

You've been given evidentiary facts and have dismissed them as being perceptions. Very existentialist.

For example, statistics/studies that purport to represent facts of death 'due to not wearing a helmet' would fall into this category.

If you do respect primary sources and omit to treat 'studies and statistics' with some cynicism, you will be misled.

Read all of the thread and mark where people have stated fact and not perception. There are lots "I belive" and "I found" based on experience this is simply not fact it's perception. No body has stated facts supporting thier points. No proper study would say death caused by not wearing a helmet. It might mention number of deaths of individuals not wearing helmets it then may conclude that these deaths are a result of not wearing helmets, it would be seperate from the facts but in the study.

If you are going to just complain about how I asked a question I would prefer if you didn't post in this thread. It is quite clear now I am looking for a study or statistics. I will dismiss personal stories and beliefs because that is not the point of the thread. If you feel different go off and start another thread. You either do not understand what I want or do not accept my thinking either way you don't need to interfer. Send me a PM if it is really a big deal but leave it off the thread.

Zaph0d

MorningStar wrote:

I am looking for a study or statistics.

A study is a collection of observations as perceived by the researcher combined with some analysis. This does not constitute an absolute truth or a fact.

Statistics are a function of the original perceptions used to gather source data.

MorningStar

Zaph0d wrote:

A study is a collection of observations as perceived by the researcher combined with some analysis. This does not constitute an absolute truth or a fact.

Statistics are a function of the original perceptions used to gather source data.

It's what I am looking for if you can't handle that go away. I am not prepared to argue the English language and the merits of scientific research.

cyclopath2001

MorningStar wrote:

You either do not understand what I want or do not accept my thinking either way you don't need to interfer. Send me a PM if it is really a big deal but leave it off the thread.

MorningStar wrote:

It's what I am looking for if you can't handle that go away. I am not prepared to argue the English language and the merits of scientific research.

I look forward to reading the results of your research, which I hope you will share with us here & give us the opportunity to discuss your findings.

mackerski

Like most respondents, I can't point you to a thesis about this either, but stay with me...

I know that, if I'm in a room with a radio on (speaker some distance away from me) at a sane volume, I can hear other sounds in the room quite well - conversation, the washing machine, the creak of a bookshelf about to fall on me, whatever. I also know that when the radio comes at me from headphones, I can't hear those other things as well. Maybe that's because the headphones screen out sounds simply by being in or on my ears. Maybe it's because the radio sounds are closer to my eardrum. Either way, the effect exists.

Now let's get back to bikes and cars. A radio via speakers in a car need not (and should not) drown out other sounds. When driving a car, I want to be able to hear:

* the response of my own engine
* the tyre-on-road noises
* horns and engine sounds of other traffic
* screeches of other peoples' brakes
* Any yells, slaps on roof or anything else urgent from pedestrians or cyclists.

With a radio at moderate volume, I can. With headphones at a useful volume, I couldn't, so I won't wear headphones while in control of a car. For the same reason, I wouldn't wear them on a bike either.

Anybody who has accepted the reasoning so far must now decide whether a sense of hearing will add to your safety. I happen to believe it will, because it has contributed to mine over many years. I know that deaf people may both drive and cycle, just as persons of restricted mobility may drive with hand controls. In these cases of reduced senses or control (remember how important they always tell you it is to have both hands on the wheel?), there's a compromise involved. Anybody who chooses to be underway with headphones on is (IMHO) voluntarily compromising on safety in a way that I wouldn't.

Dermot

MorningStar

Read the article posted earlier it makes equally logical arguement against your reasoning.
If there have been laws put in place I assume there is more to them than just reasoning that may be flawed. I can't find any study, report etc... that actually takes the matter in hand.
To give you an example of how people assume things (and get it wrong) look at this thread. I specifically asked for facts yet people assumed I wanted to hear thier opinions and reasoning.
You are assuming somebody wearing head phones can't hear any of the sounds you mentioned which I suggest you test by putting on head phones and walk close to a road. You can still hear!

mackerski

MorningStar wrote:

I specifically asked for facts yet people assumed I wanted to hear thier opinions and reasoning.

Your attitude in this thread makes me indifferent to what you want to hear. But there are others on the thread and it's a public forum. Feel free to ignore what you find distasteful.

As to still being able to hear other sounds while wearing headphones, yes, maybe, depending on the volume. But I know (having tried) that I can hear less. In much the same way that when I drive with one hand on the wheel I have less control. Or if I close one eye, I can see less. Or if I drink alcohol, I can judge less. Out of these factors comes my personal choice.

Dermot

MorningStar

mackerski wrote:

But there are others on the thread and it's a public forum. Feel free to ignore what you find distastefull

It is a public forum but the thread has a point which I created. You are off point, if you have another point to discuss go start one with your point. I find nothing you said distastefull just off point and specifically mentioned several times from the start as not the point of the thread. I agree I have been a bit abrupt but I consider it rude to keep pushing your point in somewhere that states it isn't wanted.

mackerski

MorningStar wrote:

I consider it rude to keep pushing your point in somewhere that states it isn't wanted.

In recognition of this, having made my point precisely once, I will make sure not to keep pushing it in.

Have a nice day, y'all,
Dermot

Edit: PS: do you always insert mis-spellings in quoted text?

Hotblack Desiato

MorningStar wrote:

If there have been laws put in place I assume there is more to them than just reasoning that may be flawed.

In Ireland, that's a pretty big assumption...

Zaph0d

This paper from the British Medical Journal may be of interest to the OP. It challenges the old wives' tales about parachute use.

OfflerCrocGod

I always listen to my tunes when out on my bike and I've never had any difficulty reacting to road hazards. To me it's the equivalent of listening to your music in a car. Of course it affects your reaction times but if you are safe driver/cyclist then it shoudn't make any huge difference. Without music I doubt I would ever want to travel anywhere - using a bike, bus or car!

isolde

snapscan1212p wrote:

Personally, when I do cycle, I listen to music. Just like a motorcyclist, a driver and a pedestrian.

are motorcyclists allowed to?

~isolde.

mackerski

isolde wrote:

are motorcyclists allowed to?

Well...

They are allowed to wear big padded helmets that exclude many sounds, and it's not uncommon to wire helments for sound for purposes of two-way radio. Some of the bigger, Ford-Fiesta-sized bikes also have radios with loudspeakers.

In any case, if a biker wears a walkman, who'll know?

Dermot

vector

you need your wits about you when cycling anything that interupts your senses, and doesn't provide information of a value exceeding that which its delivery excludes is bad.

you don't need a study to know this

Hotblack Desiato

mackerski wrote:

Some of the bigger, Ford-Fiesta-sized bikes also have radios with loudspeakers.

Comparing a GoldWing to a Fiesta?!? Can you get a Fiesta with a 1.8 engine?