Time to re-examine Council Housing?

magpie

Given that the average Irish industrial wage is now €28000 is it time to re-examine how Council Housing is run?

Rent is calculated based on the income of the family in residence, not the value of the property http://www.clare.ie/Calculation_of_Rent2.html and basically amounts to 17% of the income of the main earner.

For a €28k salary that means roughly €90 per week.

Given that many Council tenants get to live in houses in desirable city centre locations (e.g. South Lotts Rd) is it not time to make their payments more realistic?

A 2 bed house off South Lotts Rd in Dublin will cost you €385,000, so that woiuld give you a mortgage of €345,000 after paying a deposit. Weekly outgoings on a mortgage of this size would be in the order of €450 on a 30 year mortgage.

In other words if you are a council tenant you get your accomodation at approximately 20% of the minimum you should be paying for it, plus you get the advantage of being able to buy it at a reduced rate should you choose to do so. No wonder there's plenty of spare cash for a brand new Toyota Avensis and bedecking the house in UPVC chintz from top to bottom.

Does this give anyone else the hump?

seamus

magpie wrote:

Does this give anyone else the hump?

Yep. But you;ll always get those who'll give out about persecuting the disadvantaged and moving people away from their neghbourhoods. **** them. If you can't afford to buy a house where you grew up, you leave the area. That's what everyone else has to do. If you must ask the Government to house you, then you don't get a choice where you live. You'll be housed in adequate accomodation with reasonable local facilities at minimal cost to the taxpayer.

A Dub in Glasgo

Basing it on the value of the property is not something that is a viable alternative. People are only miffed now because the property situation in Dublin is quite ludicrous. The council housing areas would not have been described as desirable 10 years ago. There is an argument to base it on the cost to the state of providing the accommodation.

What is the mean (not average) wage/salary in Dublin? in Leinster? in other parts of the Republic? in the Repuiblic as a whole?

meditraitor

magpie wrote:

Given that the average Irish industrial wage is now €28000 is it time to re-examine how Council Housing is run?

Rent is calculated based on the income of the family in residence, not the value of the property http://www.clare.ie/Calculation_of_Rent2.html and basically amounts to 17% of the income of the main earner.

For a €28k salary that means roughly €90 per week.

Given that many Council tenants get to live in houses in desirable city centre locations (e.g. South Lotts Rd) is it not time to make their payments more realistic?

A 2 bed house off South Lotts Rd in Dublin will cost you €385,000, so that woiuld give you a mortgage of €345,000 after paying a deposit. Weekly outgoings on a mortgage of this size would be in the order of €450 on a 30 year mortgage.

In other words if you are a council tenant you get your accomodation at approximately 20% of the minimum you should be paying for it, plus you get the advantage of being able to buy it at a reduced rate should you choose to do so.

Does this give anyone else the hump?

You put a lot of thought into this maggie,

In answer to your question(hump?) NO

Average wage ¬28,000 were would you get a mortgage for €345,000(as above) on this wage

Dont know the statistics but I would bet my lucky lego underware collection that the average wage of the councill tenent is a lot(much whatever) less than the Industrial average..

Most council houses are not in desirable city center locations.

And even if they were, it would not be necessarily a bad thing, social inclusion and all.

Thats only for starters, not in the humor to elaborate,,, but your post made me laugh anyway, ta

magpie

What is the mean (not average) wage/salary in Dublin

Depends if you include the range of other State Benefits Council House tenants avail themselves of.

Also depends if you base your figures on declared or actual income. For instance an uncanny number of taxi drivers declare income of €8900 per annum, just below the threshold where you have to pay tax.

Average wage ¬28,000 were would you get a mortgage for €345,000(as above) on this wage

That's exactly the point isn't it? What if you don't qualify for Council Housing and yet you're still on this wage? You have 2 choices, either rent or move out to Blanch and beyond. So why is it one case for say, someone in their first job after 4 years in university and another for someone who depends on state hand-outs?

Sell off the Council Housing, increase mobility in the market, make housing more affordable to those who fend for themselves.

EDIT/ Seems I overestimated the amount of rent payable by Council Tenants in Dublin. If you are a couple you get a €64 allowance and then pay 15%. In other words €90-€64= €26 x 15% = €3.90 http://www.dublincity.ie/living_in_the_city/your_home/housing_services/rent_assessment.asp

Now tell me this isn't taking the piss royally.

A Dub in Glasgo

magpie wrote:

Depends if you include the range of other State Benefits Council House tenants avail themselves of.

Also depends if you base your figures on declared or actual income. For instance an uncanny number of taxi drivers declare income of €8900 per annum, just below the threshold where you have to pay tax.

Doesn't really depend on anything else other than what companies are paying and what people are declaring.

The average is not a good indication as it may mask large variations in the wages. The median or mean is more appropriate.

Selling off the council housing is not going to help your particular situation as the prices for housing will still be sky high and off the radar for a lot of people in Dublin. I am in a similar situation as I cannot afford to move back to Dublin and buy a family home.

magpie

Selling off the council housing is not going to help your particular situation as the prices for housing will still be sky high and off the radar for a lot of people in Dublin. I am in a similar situation as I cannot afford to move back to Dublin and buy a family home.

At least there will be a level playing field rather than some people paying €3.90 a week rent and blowing the rest on drink.

I particularly enjoyed reading about how the Govt made 'hardship' grants to Council House tenants affected by flooding a couple of years ago. Of course those people with mortgages have to have house insurance, if you're a Council Tenant you don't have to. And why be responsible when the government keeps bailing you out?

meditraitor

magpie wrote:

Depends if you include the range of other State Benefits Council House tenants avail themselves of.

Also depends if you base your figures on declared or actual income. For instance an uncanny number of taxi drivers declare income of €8900 per annum, just below the threshold where you have to pay tax.



That's exactly the point isn't it? What if you don't qualify for Council Housing and yet you're still on this wage? You have 2 choices, either rent or move out to Blanch and beyond. So why is it one case for say, someone in their first job after 4 years in university and another for someone who depends on state hand-outs?

Sell off the Council Housing, increase mobility in the market, make housing more affordable to those who fend for themselves.

EDIT/ Seems I overestimated the amount of rent payable by Council Tenants in Dublin. If you are a couple you get a €64 allowance and then pay 15%. In other words €90-€64= €26 x 15% = €3.90 http://www.dublincity.ie/living_in_the_city/your_home/housing_services/rent_assessment.asp

Now tell me this isn't taking the piss royally.

See i have a different veiw,, I reckon the council should build more houses, It might put a stop to the housing crisis that has gripped this little island and
has put thousands of people in hock to banks for the rest of their lives,,,,

If renting was affordable people wouldnt feel obliged to go out and get 1/4 million euro (in the end costing 1/2 million euro ,interest and the likes)loans of bank and spend the next 30 years stressing out about the volatile employment situation which is not going to get better.....

magpie

See i have a different veiw,, I reckon the council should build more houses, It might put a stop to the housing crisis that has gripped this little island and
has put thousands of people in hock to banks for the rest of their lives,,,,

If renting was affordable people wouldnt feel obliged to go out and get 1/4 million euro (in the end costing 1/2 million euro ,interest and the likes)loans of bank and spend the next 30 years stressing out about the volatile employment situation which is not going to get better.....

Unfortunately the people you're talking about with 1/4 million euro loans are not, and never will be eligible for council housing. Its 16 year-olds up the duff with no education, ambition or aspiration who get council housing.

Blub2k4

magpie wrote:

Unfortunately the people you're talking about with 1/4 million euro loans are not, and never will be eligible for council housing. Its 16 year-olds up the duff with no education, ambition or aspiration who get council housing.

This is a load of rubbish, any chance you could back up your posts with some stats or something beyond the chip that you've developed on your shoulder cos you cant afford a house?
With regard to the taxi drivers, they have been addressed already and unless they now provide tax clearance certificates their psv licenses are revoked, they are now legally obliged to provide a printed receipt, sure there are still fiddles for them but nothing like it used to be.

magpie

Try reading the entire thread

cdebru

magpie wrote:

Depends if you include the range of other State Benefits Council House tenants avail themselves of.

Also depends if you base your figures on declared or actual income. For instance an uncanny number of taxi drivers declare income of €8900 per annum, just below the threshold where you have to pay tax.



.

you seem to have an opinion that all council housing tenants are 16 year old pregnant taxi driving not declaring their full income tax avoiding alcoholics


may i make a suggestion if you think they have it so good may i suggest you start drinking get yourself pregnant avoid your tax get a taxi and join them in the luxury of fatima mansions or whatever other penthouses they have available to them

Blub2k4

magpie wrote:

Try reading the entire thread

Actually I did and still come out with the same opinion and still think you are whining cos you have a chip and loe and behold there comes another poster who agrees.

So any chance you could provide some proof beyond your self-pitying whine?

Sparks

Of course, there's the point that the problem isn't that council houses have low levels of rent, but that ordinary housing is stupidly expensive and that the problem we should be solving isn't one of making everyone pay the same high amount, but making everyone pay the same low amount...

billy the squid

I would love to know where they are paying €3.50 a week rent. even the rents in places like O'Malley Park are higher than that.

sceptre

magpie wrote:

Given that the average Irish industrial wage is now €28000

Are people on the average industrial wage eligible for council housing?

magpie

Are people on the average industrial wage eligible for council housing?

From http://www.cidb.ie/live.nsf/0/802567ca003e043d80256e97004ee88e?OpenDocument

1.2.1 Housing Need
To be eligible for consideration for an offer of accommodation from the City Council an applicant must, in the opinion of the City Council, be in need of such accommodation. In determining need the City Council will have particular regard to applicants in the following categories:

persons who are homeless,
persons living in accommodation that is unfit for human habitation or is materially unsuitable for their adequate accommodation,
persons living in overcrowded accommodation,
persons sharing accommodation with another person or persons and who in the opinion of the City Council have a reasonable requirement for separate accommodation,
young persons leaving institutional care or without family accommodation,
persons in need of accommodation for medical or social reasons,
Single persons under 55 years who are not homeless but who have serious medical or social problems and where in the opinion of the City Council their existing housing conditions are unsatisfactory.
persons who are elderly,
persons with disabilities,
Travellers,
persons who, in the opinion of the City Council, are not reasonably able to meet the cost of the accommodation which they are occupying or to obtain suitable alternative accommodation.

Of course this is to get into a council house in the first instance.

However if your parents have a council house then you automatically receive tenancy regardless of your income / circumstances.

So in reality there are 2 things involved here:

1) People who need council housing out of dire necessity, in which case OK.

2) People who for generations have inhabited the same council house and are capable of purchasing / renting their own property but instead pay €3.90 a week rent. These are the people I have a problem with.

On the death or departure of both parents the tenancy will normally be given to a son or daughter, irrespective of number in the household, provided that he/she has been living in the dwelling for at least two years immediately prior to the death or departure of the tenant.

I would love to know where they are paying €3.50 a week rent. even the rents in places like O'Malley Park are higher than that.

You've seen the links to the relevant official sites, you seen the formulae, you do the maths and tell me if you come up with anything different

may i make a suggestion if you think they have it so good may i suggest you start drinking get yourself pregnant avoid your tax get a taxi and join them in the luxury of fatima mansions or whatever other penthouses they have available to them

Again this assumption that council housing = squalor, which is completely unfounded.

Of course, there's the point that the problem isn't that council houses have low levels of rent, but that ordinary housing is stupidly expensive and that the problem we should be solving isn't one of making everyone pay the same high amount, but making everyone pay the same low amount...

Which would be easier to resolve? Use the money from increasing Council House rents to increase availability of affordable housing.

So any chance you could provide some proof beyond your self-pitying whine?

a) Try attacking the post, not the poster
b) Proof of what exactly?

I would have thought someone like you who attended "one of the top boarding schools in Ireland" would understand the fundamentals of debating.

The Muppet

magpie wrote:

Depends if you include the range of other State Benefits Council House tenants avail themselves of.

Which for anyone on €28.000 would be ZERO.

jhegarty

next time you drive by one of these estates look out for car with 04 or 05 regs... bet you will see loads of them...

Zaph0d

Large scale council housing is socially divisive. It would be a mistake to build any more giant gulag style estates and populate them entirely with the poor. Children in these areas were crippled by being constantly surrounded by those identified by officialdom as economic losers. The schools in these areas are dysfunctional.

Other countries have avoided a situation where the state plays the role of paternalistic landlord by instead paying the rent or mortgage of people when they fall on hard times with the understanding that this arrangement is temporary until the person in question starts to get it together again.

The government is now caught between two stools: on the one hand cheap and abundant housing would make it easier to acquire or rent a house, yet the last thing they want to do is reduce property prices when half the country secretly believe they are worth half a million on paper.

20 years ago the situation seemed hopeless. The affluent middle class, whose members were the architects, planners and politicians that -without malice -had designed these people dumps, subconsciously regarded council tenants as a lower species incapable of fending for themselves. They participated in a system where council tenants had no choice about where to live, were sent to car dependent areas without any public transport and told to ring the council like children every time their jacks was blocked.

It's great now to see cars outside the houses, to see young people with the 'wrong accents' holding jobs and to see young middle class people buying ex-council houses.

Irish socialists at one time saw progress in terms of the number of council houses built each year. I remember Joe Duffy, great intellectual pygmy of our time, saying he wouldn't be happy until there was a row of corporation houses across trinity college.

pete

magpie wrote:

EDIT/ Seems I overestimated the amount of rent payable by Council Tenants in Dublin. If you are a couple you get a €64 allowance and then pay 15%. In other words €90-€64= €26 x 15% = €3.90 http://www.dublincity.ie/living_in_the_city/your_home/housing_services/rent_assessment.asp

Seems you need to get your facts straight, more like.

Taking a real world example from my own personal experience.

A husband and wife in their 60's. One is on Invalidity Pension, the other Old Age Pension. Dublin City Council assess their rent on their 2 bedroom house in Cabra at ~€31 a week.

pete

seamus wrote:

Yep. But you;ll always get those who'll give out about persecuting the disadvantaged and moving people away from their neghbourhoods. **** them. If you can't afford to buy a house where you grew up, you leave the area. That's what everyone else has to do. If you must ask the Government to house you, then you don't get a choice where you live. You'll be housed in adequate accomodation with reasonable local facilities at minimal cost to the taxpayer.

Except it's not a case of people being housed where they grew up - tenancy rights pass to one of the existing tenants who gets housed where they currently live.

Unless you're actually suggesting that when both parents have kicked the bucket, everyone else in the house gets evicted?

uncivilservant

magpie wrote:

From http://www.cidb.ie/live.nsf/0/802567ca003e043d80256e97004ee88e?OpenDocument



Of course this is to get into a council house in the first instance.

No, actually you've quoted the qualifying criteria for being considered for inclusion on a waiting list. There's quite a difference between getting a place on the waiting list and getting a place of your own.

Incidentally, you seem to have ignored section 1.2.2 "Capacity to Afford Accommodation from Own Resources"

An applicant whose household income exceeds the maximum income limit to be eligible for a local authority house purchase loan under section 39 of the Housing Act 1966 (single persons limit, shared ownership scheme) will not qualify for City Council accommodation.

Income will generally be determined on the basis of the applicant's P.60 for the previous year where this represents normal earnings. Deductions may be made for exceptional overtime. Self employed persons will have their incomes assessed on the basis of the income related rents system at present used by Dublin City Council. Applicants with incomes coming within the guidelines may not be entered on the Housing list where their employment or profession is such that it would normally allow them to provide housing from their own resources.

Not quite the freeloaders free for all you're making it out to be, is it?

magpie

Not quite the freeloaders free for all you're making it out to be, is it?

Depends. What is the maximum income to be considered eligible?

Unless you're actually suggesting that when both parents have kicked the bucket, everyone else in the house gets evicted?

No, the other occupants should be allowed to remain provided they fit the criteria. If not then they should have a choice of getting a mortgage and puraching the house, or getting out and leaving it for someone who actually needs the housing.

Seems you need to get your facts straight, more like.

Taking a real world example from my own personal experience.

A husband and wife in their 60's. One is on Invalidity Pension, the other Old Age Pension. Dublin City Council assess their rent on their 2 bedroom house in Cabra at ~€31 a week.

I'm taking my facts from the Dublin City Council website. If you think their rent is being unfairly calculated then maybe you should do something about it. Alternately they may have other income you don't know about. (if €31 is 15% of their income minus €64 then €31+€64= €95 which is 15% of €635, or €33,000 per annum).

Either way €31 per week is a ludicrously low rent for a 2 bed apartment anywhere in Dublin, probably about 15% of the going rate.

pete

magpie wrote:

I'm taking my facts from the Dublin City Council website. If you think their rent is being unfairly calculated then maybe you should do something about it.

No, actually i'm saying you've misunderstood the assesment calculations and/or can't do simple sums.

No, the other occupants should be allowed to remain provided they fit the criteria. If not then they should have a choice of getting a mortgage and puraching the house, or getting out and leaving it for someone who actually needs the housing.

So that's a yes, then? Forced to buy the house, or forced out? You do realise that the rent would be re-assessed based on their income as the principal earner, don't you? (see below)

Either way €31 per week is a ludicrously low rent for a 2 bed apartment anywhere in Dublin, probably about 15% of the going rate.

So what? Isn't that the whole point of council housing? Or would you prefer to see a couple of pensioners in a cardboard box on the streets?

In any event, as can be clearly seen on the page you referenced, council rents for 2 bedroom houses can be up to € 234.66 per week (or €1,016 per month, if you prefer) depending on income. Which is something similar to the rent on "a 2 bed apartment anywhere in Dublin", don't you think?

billy the squid

magpie wrote:

From http://www.cidb.ie/live.nsf/0/802567ca003e043d80256e97004ee88e?OpenDocument



Of course this is to get into a council house in the first instance.

However if your parents have a council house then you automatically receive tenancy regardless of your income / circumstances.

So in reality there are 2 things involved here:

1) People who need council housing out of dire necessity, in which case OK.

2) People who for generations have inhabited the same council house and are capable of purchasing / renting their own property but instead pay €3.90 a week rent. These are the people I have a problem with.






You've seen the links to the relevant official sites, you seen the formulae, you do the maths and tell me if you come up with anything different



Again this assumption that council housing = squalor, which is completely unfounded.



Which would be easier to resolve? Use the money from increasing Council House rents to increase availability of affordable housing.



a) Try attacking the post, not the poster
b) Proof of what exactly?

I would have thought someone like you who attended "one of the top boarding schools in Ireland" would understand the fundamentals of debating.

you stated it again but failed to provide sources. which estates charge €3.90 a week rent?

rent is means tested and tennants are not entitled to any intervention from the health boards, afaik.

equasions and statistics are great but they dont reflect reality.

A Dub in Glasgo

magpie - I just seen the following in the business/economy forum from yourself. If what you post there is your true reflection of the housing market, this thread sounds like a load of sour grapes and jealousy to me - but maybe i'm wrong.

magpie wrote:

to fail to grasp is that house prices in Ireland are fuelled by steady demand. Also houses were seriously undervalued here until the late 90s, and are just catching up with everywhere else, hence year-on-year jumps in value.

MrPudding

magpie wrote:

A 2 bed house off South Lotts Rd in Dublin will cost you €385,000, so that woiuld give you a mortgage of €345,000 after paying a deposit. Weekly outgoings on a mortgage of this size would be in the order of €450 on a 30 year mortgage.

And where does the deposit come from? You are assuming that everyone in council housing has 30K just kicking around. Plenty of people can afford large mortgages, myself for example, just don't have the required deposit.

Given that the people who tend to be council tenents also tend to not be big earners I think it is likely they will not have large saving.

MrP

meditraitor

magpie wrote:

Given that the average Irish industrial wage is now €28000 is it time to re-examine how Council Housing is run?

Rent is calculated based on the income of the family in residence, not the value of the property http://www.clare.ie/Calculation_of_Rent2.html and basically amounts to 17% of the income of the main earner.

For a €28k salary that means roughly €90 per week.

Given that many Council tenants get to live in houses in desirable city centre locations (e.g. South Lotts Rd) is it not time to make their payments more realistic?

A 2 bed house off South Lotts Rd in Dublin will cost you €385,000, so that woiuld give you a mortgage of €345,000 after paying a deposit. Weekly outgoings on a mortgage of this size would be in the order of €450 on a 30 year mortgage.

In other words if you are a council tenant you get your accomodation at approximately 20% of the minimum you should be paying for it, plus you get the advantage of being able to buy it at a reduced rate should you choose to do so. No wonder there's plenty of spare cash for a brand new Toyota Avensis and bedecking the house in UPVC chintz from top to bottom.

Does this give anyone else the hump?

See you've changed your post since I first laughed at it,,,

a) Try attacking the post, not the poster
b) Proof of what exactly?

I would have thought someone like you who attended "one of the top boarding schools in Ireland" would understand the fundamentals of debating.

I poked enough holes in it to make it sink Maggie,, did that escape your notice

debate my hole,, Its a stupid argument and only a sophist would consider it winnable(IS THAT A REAL WORD YOU MIGHT ASK)

magpie

No, actually i'm saying you've misunderstood the assesment calculations and/or can't do simple sums

OK, you do them for me and show me exactly where I'm wrong, or are you just relying on anecdotal evidence about hard-luck cases (surprise surprise) to back up your arguments?

council rents for 2 bedroom houses can be up to € 234.66 per week

Yes, if your income is €1560 per week, in which case you shouldn't be in council housing.

Like I said, if I'm doing the sums wrong, you do them.

poked enough holes in it to make it sink Maggie,, did that escape your notice

debate my hole,, Its a stupid argument and only a sophist would consider it winnable(IS THAT A REAL WORD YOU MIGHT ASK)

I hate to deflate your ego, but that comment wasn't directed at you Meditraitor. Unless you're logging in under 2 names.

And where does the deposit come from? You are assuming that everyone in council housing has 30K just kicking around. Plenty of people can afford large mortgages, myself for example, just don't have the required deposit.

Given that the people who tend to be council tenents also tend to not be big earners I think it is likely they will not have large saving.

MrP

So why, when you cannot afford housing, are you treated differently to those in Council Housing?

you stated it again but failed to provide sources. which estates charge €3.90 a week rent?

rent is means tested

You said it yourself. Rent of €3.91 per week is based on a single-income couple earning the National average industrial wage of €28,000 and receiving a €64 per week allowance towards rent.

Maybe you want to do the sums based on the formuale given on the website yourself? Get back to me when you've done that.

It amazes me the number of horrified reactions that you get from daring to suggest that the sacred cow of council housing be re-examined, especially when so many of you are by your own confession unable to afford housing yet ineligible for council housing.

billy the squid

dont know about dublin but down here your not entitled to rent allowance if your living in council housing. so theres where your $3.90 a week rent theory goes out the window.

It amazes me the number of horrified reactions that you get from daring to suggest that the sacred cow of council housing be re-examined, especially when so many of you are by your own confession unable to afford housing yet ineligible for council housing.

re-examining is different to "winding up" now isnt it.