Time to re-examine Council Housing?

magpie

dont know about dublin but down here your not entitled to rent allowance if your living in council housing. so theres where your $3.90 a week rent theory goes out the window.

I'm not talking about Rent Allowance.

I'm talking about the allowance of €64 that is deducted from 15% of your income (if you are a couple) in order to calculate your rent.

Like I keep saying, if you want to correct my calculations based on the information provided by Dublin City Council then please do so.

re-examining is different to "winding up" now isnt it.

Fair enough, I'll edit the title of the thread to see if we can get a rational discussion going on the pros and cons.

billy the squid

something in your calculation has to be flawed, there is not a single councle house in this country that is going for €3.90 a week some of the worst housing estates in the country have rents ten times that amount.

socondly, your making assumptions that if they were paying €3.90 a week rent, that they are doing nothing but spending it on drink, which is another misconseption the right have of disadvantaged people.

IMO there should be more houses built to accomodate people who cannot afford these ludicrusly priced houses being built at the moment.

magpie

something in your calculation has to be flawed

Either work it out and show me, or drop it.

they are doing nothing but spending it on drink

And UPVc Mock Edwardian Windows / 05 D Nissans

which is another misconseption the right have of disadvantaged people

Disadvantaged people can't afford Tudordwardian UPVc entensions
/ new cars. If they were disadvantaged I wouldn't have a problem with them having Council Housing. Its the fact that they are evidently and demonstrably not disadvantaged that's at issue.

billy the squid

why should I drop it. the last council rent book I have seen with under four pounds was from back in the days of LSD currency. you find me a rent book with €3.90 rent on it. the point im making is your calculations might be right but it is just not the reality of the case.

And UPVc Mock Edwardian Windows / 05 D Nissans

I doubt very much that those only able to afford council rents are at the levels you suggest are buying flash cars. those are more than likely houses that were or are under tennant purchase schemes. Do you have a problem with people buying the house they have lived in for several years? and when they get on in life, getting a good job etc, buying themselves a new car?

besides you dont need a hell of a lot of money to get an 05 nissan, if you get it on finance.

You will find that people who build their extensions and put their uPVC windows in have more than likely been living in that house for years, or inherrited them from previous tennants.

pete

magpie wrote:

OK, you do them for me and show me exactly where I'm wrong, or are you just relying on anecdotal evidence about hard-luck cases (surprise surprise) to back up your arguments?

Oh fair enough then - if you can't manage it yourself.

In your first post, you calculated a weekly rent of €90 on a €28k annual income. (28,000/52*17% = €91.53)

In post #5 you then took this €90 rent figure and applied the Dublin City Council method of calculating rent against that €90, rather than the €28,000 income. An income of €90*52= €4,580 a year, not €28,000.

Hence you arrived at your (rather obviously) incorrect rental figure of €3.90

QED

In fairness it's a simple enough mistake to make, but it's even easier to spot.

Since you've based the rest of your points since then on this figure, I assume you'll be retracting them.

magpie

Yes, my mistake, well spotted

€28K / 52 = €538

€538 - €64 (allowance) = €474

15% of €474 = €71.10 which is regardless of any other posts here a frankly ludicrously low sum to pay for rent, council or otherwise.

Since you've based the rest of your points since then on this figure, I assume you'll be retracting them.

That would have been the case had I started a thread suggesting all Council Tenants should pay more than €4 per week. My points, that I will not be retracting are:

a) paying rent based on a percentage of your income is ludicrous, it should be based on the value of the property

b) council housing should be reserved for those that obviously need it, not those with large disposable incomes.

doubt very much that those only able to afford council rents are at the levels you suggest are buying flash cars. those are more than likely houses that were or are under tennant purchase schemes. Do you have a problem with people buying the house they have lived in for several years? and when they get on in life, getting a good job etc, buying themselves a new car?

besides you dont need a hell of a lot of money to get an 05 nissan, if you get it on finance.

You will find that people who build their extensions and put their uPVC windows in have more than likely been living in that house for years, or inherrited them from previous tennants.

That's all assumption, in fairness.

pete

magpie wrote:

Yes, my mistake, well spotted

Hint: This is the part where you apologise to the people you had a go at for legitimately criticising your obviously dodgy maths.

€28K / 52 = €538

€538 - €64 (allowance) = €474

15% of €474 = €71.10 which is regardless of any other posts here a frankly ludicrously low sum to pay for rent, council or otherwise.

Why?

Are you suggesting that Dublin City Council should operate like an average private sector landlord - that they should focus on maximising profits and charge as much rent as they can?

Are you suggesting that those you deem unworthy of social housing should be forced out and either live on the streets or be royally screwed by private landlords?

You've repeatedly stated your objection to the great unwashed being housed - now what are your solutions to the housing issues?

a) paying rent based on a percentage of your income is ludicrous, it should be based on the value of the property

Why? Because you don't like it isn't really a good enough reason, you know.

b) council housing should be reserved for those that obviously need it, not those with large disposable incomes.

It is. Once again, please go back and read the guidelines you linked to.

That's all assumption, in fairness.

I'm guessing the irony of this statement is lost on you.

I think you should go away for a while and have a good long think about what exactly it is you have a problem with.

cdebru

magpie wrote:

Given that the average Irish industrial wage is now €28000 is it time to re-examine how Council Housing is run?

Rent is calculated based on the income of the family in residence, not the value of the property http://www.clare.ie/Calculation_of_Rent2.html and basically amounts to 17% of the income of the main earner.

For a €28k salary that means roughly €90 per week.

Given that many Council tenants get to live in houses in desirable city centre locations (e.g. South Lotts Rd) is it not time to make their payments more realistic?

A 2 bed house off South Lotts Rd in Dublin will cost you €385,000, so that woiuld give you a mortgage of €345,000 after paying a deposit. Weekly outgoings on a mortgage of this size would be in the order of €450 on a 30 year mortgage.

In other words if you are a council tenant you get your accomodation at approximately 20% of the minimum you should be paying for it, plus you get the advantage of being able to buy it at a reduced rate should you choose to do so. No wonder there's plenty of spare cash for a brand new Toyota Avensis and bedecking the house in UPVC chintz from top to bottom.

Does this give anyone else the hump?

can i just point something out here to you

someone who bought a house between say 8 to 10 years ago would be only paying roughly about 90euro aweek on their mortgage the same as someone renting from the council on the average industrial wage
they are about half way through paying their mortgage in another 10 years they will be finished and will own their own home
they currently live in a house that on average in dublin is valued at well over 300,000 euros

people renting from dublin city council will still be renting till the day they die

if renting from dublin city council is the utopia you believe it to be why are people buying houses instead of renting from the council and why when offered the chance to buy do the vast majority of council tenants jump at the chance

Sleepy

If you can afford to own a car, you shouldn't be in Council Housing. Social housing is for those on the breadline that cannot afford to house themselves and shouldn't be available to anyone else.

All the welfare state owes should provide is enough to feed, clothe and house yourself. Not a penny more (I believe education and health should be free to all). Living on the State should be a lot harder than it currently is in order to provide sufficient motivation for people to support themselves. Sure, it's tough living on minimum wage, but it can be done, thousands of decent people are doing it around Ireland as I type this. Why should they pay tax so some layabout can be fed, clothed, housed and have enough left over to have a social life, a Budget holiday trip to Majorca in the summer etc. etc?

cdebru

Sleepy wrote:

If you can afford to own a car, you shouldn't be in Council Housing. Social housing is for those on the breadline that cannot afford to house themselves and shouldn't be available to anyone else.

All the welfare state owes should provide is enough to feed, clothe and house yourself. Not a penny more (I believe education and health should be free to all). Living on the State should be a lot harder than it currently is in order to provide sufficient motivation for people to support themselves. Sure, it's tough living on minimum wage, but it can be done, thousands of decent people are doing it around Ireland as I type this. Why should they pay tax so some layabout can be fed, clothed, housed and have enough left over to have a social life, a Budget holiday trip to Majorca in the summer etc. etc?

so if someone is in council housing and they manage to get a job they should be evicted from the council housing how soon that day give them a week a month

the presumption you are working on is that everyone in council housing is on social welfare which is wrong

you also seem to be saying that if someone in council housing does something to improve their lot like finding employment they should be punished by losing their home no a very progressive society you want to build

i honestly think you are living in cloud cuckoo land if you believe that living on social welfare in Ireland is some sort of utopia and we need to make it harder for people

magpie

Hint: This is the part where you apologise to the people you had a go at for legitimately criticising your obviously dodgy maths.

Hint: Stop being so patronising.

I had a go at 'people' for being too lazy to try and do the sums themselves, rather than relying on apocryphal evidence of hard luck cases. And just to clarify when we're talking about 'people' we mean 'you'. So if you think I owe you an apology why not just ask for one? So I can dignify it with the response it deserves.

Incidentally, your dubious explanation of how I made an error is completely incorrect, so I don't know what you're being so smug about.

The mistake I made was to deduct the €64 allowance after working out 15% of the weekly wage, rather than deducting it from the weekly wage and taking 15% of the total. It had nothing to do with your utterly spurious explanation, which if you work it out doesn't even add up.

The difference between you and me is I wasn't pedantic enough to point this out to you originally but rather had the good grace to accept I'd made a mistake.

But seeing as how you had to be so petty about it and attempt to crow over your little victory for the week I am forced, unwillingly, to point out that it was in fact you with the wafer-thin grasp of basic arithmetic.

Hint: Don't try and be the big man on campus.

I think you should go away for a while and have a good long think about what exactly it is you have a problem with.

See above.

the great unwashed

Nice. Is this what your Mater and Pater call them?

pete

magpie wrote:

The mistake I made was to deduct the €64 allowance after working out 15% of the weekly wage

Hmmm. An "utterly spurious explanation", eh?

(€28,000/52) = €538.46

€538.46*15% = €80.769.

As you can see that's €80, not €90. Which begs the question - where did that mysterious €90 in post#5 come from then, if not from your calculated rental figure in post#1? This was the flaw in your calculations I pointed out.

Now, I may have a "wafer thin grasp of basic arithmetic", but i'm not the one ranting about the great injustice of Dublin City Council rents based on shonky figures.

As for claiming you actually made a different mistake, so that's alright then...? Weak.

I'm going to ignore the rest of your post (much like you chose to ignore the questions i asked previously) so i don't get banned (again).

cdebru

magpie wrote:

Hint: Stop being so patronising.

I had a go at 'people' for being too lazy to try and do the sums themselves, rather than relying on apocryphal evidence of hard luck cases. And just to clarify when we're talking about 'people' we mean 'you'. So if you think I owe you an apology why not just ask for one? So I can dignify it with the response it deserves.

Incidentally, your dubious explanation of how I made an error is completely incorrect, so I don't know what you're being so smug about.

The mistake I made was to deduct the €64 allowance after working out 15% of the weekly wage, rather than deducting it from the weekly wage and taking 15% of the total. It had nothing to do with your utterly spurious explanation, which if you work it out doesn't even add up.

The difference between you and me is I wasn't pedantic enough to point this out to you originally but rather had the good grace to accept I'd made a mistake.

But seeing as how you had to be so petty about it and attempt to crow over your little victory for the week I am forced, unwillingly, to point out that it was in fact you with the wafer-thin grasp of basic arithmetic.

Hint: Don't try and be the big man on campus.



See above



Nice. Is this what your Mater and Pater call them?

lol

magpie thanks for the laugh

you make a complete arse of the maths and base your whole arguement around it
then when your arithmetic is corrected for you you accuse the person who actually corrected your dodgy maths of having a wafer-thin grasp of basic arithmetic

classic

billy the squid

@sleepy

a policy such as that would discourage people from going out to work for fear of being evicted. Increasing the rent to reflect the income is a far faier system.

something could be done to make the shared-ownership scheme easier for low-income earners, allowing them to buy privately built houses at rates that they can afford. would be a good idea. this would also free up existing council housing for those on the list.

Oh and for some people who are working, a car is a necessity to get too and from work. not every town en the country has public transport. As well as that cars can be bought on finance meaning you dont have to have 12,000 in the bank to acquire one. you can get a three or four year old nissan for €3000 in the buy and sell.

As for your views on giving money to the health service. the health service is a black hole for money, its been swallowed up by the amount of pen pushers and administrative staff working there.

Blub2k4

So Magpie is still in the position he was in on Thursday only more people are laughing at him now.

Debate my ass.

magpie

As you can see that's €80, not €90. Which begs the question - where did that mysterious €90 in post#5 come from then, if not from your calculated rental figure in post#1? This was the flaw in your calculations I pointed out.

If you bothered reading the posts you would see that came from the Clare County Council site, who charge 17%, hence €90, unlike DCC who charge 15% hence €90. Understand now?

when your arithmetic is corrected for you you accuse the person who actually corrected your dodgy maths of having a wafer-thin grasp of basic arithmetic

Read the posts: he still doesn't understand where the mistake was. And neither do you evidently. Yes I made a mistake, unfortunately nobody else spotted where it was. Hence the only correction made was by myself.

Here's what happened, posted again for your benefit. I've even put it in bold so its easier for you to read, and hopefully grasp.

The mistake I made was to deduct the €64 allowance after working out 15% of the weekly wage, rather than deducting it from the weekly wage and taking 15% of the total.

Now you tell me, does this bear any relation to the 'correction' offered by Pete? That's right, it doesn't.

So Magpie is still in the position he was in on Thursday only more people are laughing at him now.

Go back to the Refectory and do your prep Clongowes Boy :rolleyes:

MrPudding

Someone coming into this forum for the first time might think that Magpie was a total prick.

Of course this would not be my opinion. His posts do seem, however, to be worded in such a way as to try to elicit some abuse in return. Trying to frustrate opponents in the debate into posting negative comments resulting in a ban is, I suppose, one way of winning the debate.

MrP

magpie

Mr Pudding, glad you could join us. You seem to follow me around calling me a prick. Methinks the lady protests too much.

billy the squid

interesting site that clare county council one. did you notice that people earning over 180 e a week lose all their allowances. so someone earning 28,000 a year would not have any allowances on their rent.

magpie

According to the SWP Dublin City Council is planning to sell off its entire housing stock to Property Speculators, so if the loony left are to be believed this topic may be moot in a couple of years http://www.swp.ie/html/election04/Shay/Shay-election%20leaflet.pdf

pete

magpie wrote:

If you bothered reading the posts you would see that came from the Clare County Council site, who charge 17%, hence €90, unlike DCC who charge 15% hence €90. Understand now?

So one charges €90, but the other charges €90? I'll assume that's a typo, then.

And we're still none the wiser why you're using the rental figure from your Clare calculations as an income figure in your Dublin calculations.

I'll stop now.

MrPudding

magpie wrote:

Mr Pudding, glad you could join us. You seem to follow me around calling me a prick. Methinks the lady protests too much.

I didn't call you a prick.

MrP

magpie

I'll assume that's a typo, then.

Yep

And we're still none the wiser why you're using the rental figure from your Clare calculations as an income figure in your Dublin calculations.

Clare was the first one that came up under Google and I wasn't paying attention. My mistake for which I apologise

I'll stop now.

Me too, this is silly.

Blub2k4

Any chance you could get past whining and insulting people and actually put a point together that could be debated?

I made a legit point, your posts do not amount to anything more than a whine, no basis in fact and summed up you are pissed at the proles for getting a house when you cant afford one, I'm surprised the mods left it open they normally drop crap like this.

If you are insulted at the insinuation that you are whining the floor is open to prove it otherwise, although three pages have passed now and you are still unable to debate anything, apart from peoples tenuous grasp at mathemathics, yourself included.

It wasn't Clongowes by the way, but dont let that bother you.

cdebru

magpie wrote:

If you bothered reading the posts you would see that came from the Clare County Council site, who charge 17%, hence €90, unlike DCC who charge 15% hence €90. Understand now?

no maybe you should put it in bold letters

magpie wrote:

Read the posts: he still doesn't understand where the mistake was. And neither do you evidently. Yes I made a mistake, unfortunately nobody else spotted where it was. Hence the only correction made was by myself.

Here's what happened, posted again for your benefit. I've even put it in bold so its easier for you to read, and hopefully grasp.



Now you tell me, does this bear any relation to the 'correction' offered by Pete? That's right, it doesn't.

that was one of the mistakes you made

EDIT/ Seems I overestimated the amount of rent payable by Council Tenants in Dublin. If you are a couple you get a €64 allowance and then pay 15%. In other words €90-€64= €26 x 15% = €3.90
http://www.dublincity.ie/living_in_..._assessment.asp

what about this where you presumed the income for a couple was 90e i believe may have been what pete was correcting you on


in fairness your arithmetic is fairly good it is the ability to follow simple guidelines that you completely lack
maybe dublin city council should have printed them in bold letters for you







:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]