Sinn Fein criticise Irish Government Minister for interfering in UK internal affairs

monument

Milo wrote:

Does anybody see the irony of a right wing party (fianna fail) and a party that makes fianna fail look communist (the PD's) canvessing for the Social and Democratic Labour Party??

Just a thought!

Most of the SDLP mindset is on par of that of FF.

Cork

monument wrote:

Most of the SDLP mindset is on par of that of FF.

But heavens no party has links to an illegal army like SF.

monument

What on earth, heaven, or hell, has that got to do with what I said?

Cork

Point taken - we should not thank anybody.

Democratic partys should not have links to or have illegal armys.

cdebru

monument wrote:

What on earth, heaven, or hell, has that got to do with what I said?

corks posts rarely have anything to do with what anyone says

sceptre

Cork wrote:

But heavens no party has links to an illegal army like SF.

Cork, I'm not going to tolerate you trying to drag this off-topic just because you feel like talking about illegal armies or stabbings (if that was going to be next). Take your hobby horse outside or to a thread where it's half-relevant.

Milo

Nuttzz:

"Ever hear of the National Socialist German Workers' Party? Best socialists ever!"


I'm confused...are you comparing the SDLP to the NAZI's or just the PD's and Fianna Fail????

Anyway Dermot Ahern campaigning on behalf of the SDLP will only hasten the demise of that party as most nationalists in the north have never relied on the government down here for anything and it will only reflect negatively on the SDLP in the long run.....the fact that they need government support betrays alot about there grass roots activities.

cdebru

Milo wrote:

Nuttzz:

"Ever hear of the National Socialist German Workers' Party? Best socialists ever!"


I'm confused...are you comparing the SDLP to the NAZI's or just the PD's and Fianna Fail????

.

i think what he meant was national socialists were not actually socialist and the SDLP are not actually a labour party

just because a party calls itself a particular name does not mean it actually bears any resemblance to that name kinda of like progressive democrat or indeed soldiers of destiny

sceptre

Milo wrote:

Does anybody see the irony of a right wing party (fianna fail) and a party that makes fianna fail look communist (the PD's) canvessing for the Social and Democratic Labour Party??

I'm not so sure it's all that relevant these days but the only reason the word "labour" is in the party name is that Gerry Fitt said he wouldn't join unless it was. Given that Fitt's main reason for leaving the party was ostensibly the abandonment of the early social policy the word is there pretty much because it has always been there. So the SDLP aren't Labour and FF aren't soldiers. That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as politiciany.

Milo

cdebru:

"i think what he meant was national socialists were not actually socialist and the SDLP are not actually a labour party"

Well the SDLP has been refered to many times by successive leaders of the Labour Party of Ireland as it's sister party in the north and it's affiliations within Europe would seem to suggest it thinks of itself as a labour party.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SDLP

"The Social Democratic and Labour Party (SDLP — Irish: Páirtí Sóisialta Daonlathach an Lucht Oibre) is the smaller of the two major nationalist parties in Northern Ireland. The SDLP is also a social democratic party, and is affiliated to the Socialist International. It is a member of the Party of European Socialists"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_of_European_Socialists

Socialist International: is an international organisation for social democratic and democratic socialist parties

http://www.pes.org/

What is the PES?

The Party of European Socialists (PES) brings together the Socialist, Social Democratic and Labour Parties of the European Union (EU). Its aims include:

* the strengthening of the socialist and social democratic movement in the Union and throughout Europe;
* the development of close working relationships between the national member parties, their parliamentary groups, the Parliamentary Group of the PES and the Party;
* the definition of common policies for the European Union; and
* the adoption of a common manifesto for elections to the European Parliament.

There are 32 member parties from 25 nations of the new Europe and Norway. In addition, there are eight associate and five observer parties. The PES was founded in 1992 following the Treaty on European Union and the recognition of the importance of political parties at a European level in Article 191 of the Treaty. It succeeded the Confederation of Socialist Parties of the European Community, which had been set up in 1974.

And just to compare:

http://www.labour.ie/international/

The Labour Party is fully committed to solidarity with working people throughout the world. For that reason we are active members of the the Party of European Socialists and the Socialist International.

We currently have one sitting MEP - Proinsias De Rossa - in the European Parliament who plays an active role in the PES (Party of European Socialists).

Sand

Does anybody see the irony of a right wing party (fianna fail) and a party that makes fianna fail look communist (the PD's) canvessing for the Social and Democratic Labour Party??

Well, first of all FF arent right wing, theyre a populist centre party - effectively theyll jump on whatever bandwagon keeps them in power. Secondly, the stakes in nationalist Northern Ireland are higher than mere economic right and left.

Theres a battle going on in Northern Ireland - In Unionism its a battle between moderates and hardcore unionists, but in Nationalism its a battle between legitimate democratic politics and terrorists/gangsters in suits. The Government is representing our best interests, and the best interests of all lawful voters North and South by supporting the SDLP, and thus legitimate politics.

i think what he meant was national socialists were not actually socialist

They mightnt have been international socialists, but they were most definitly nationalist socialists. Their economic program wouldnt look too out of place in an Old Labour manifesto. Bar the enslavement and harvesting of non-Aryans of course.

cdebru

Milo wrote:

cdebru:

"i think what he meant was national socialists were not actually socialist and the SDLP are not actually a labour party"

Well the SDLP has been refered to many times by successive leaders of the Labour Party of Ireland as it's sister party in the north and it's affiliations within Europe would seem to suggest it thinks of itself as a labour party.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SDLP

"The Social Democratic and Labour Party (SDLP — Irish: Páirtí Sóisialta Daonlathach an Lucht Oibre) is the smaller of the two major nationalist parties in Northern Ireland. The SDLP is also a social democratic party, and is affiliated to the Socialist International. It is a member of the Party of European Socialists"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_of_European_Socialists

Socialist International: is an international organisation for social democratic and democratic socialist parties

http://www.pes.org/

What is the PES?

The Party of European Socialists (PES) brings together the Socialist, Social Democratic and Labour Parties of the European Union (EU). Its aims include:

* the strengthening of the socialist and social democratic movement in the Union and throughout Europe;
* the development of close working relationships between the national member parties, their parliamentary groups, the Parliamentary Group of the PES and the Party;
* the definition of common policies for the European Union; and
* the adoption of a common manifesto for elections to the European Parliament.

There are 32 member parties from 25 nations of the new Europe and Norway. In addition, there are eight associate and five observer parties. The PES was founded in 1992 following the Treaty on European Union and the recognition of the importance of political parties at a European level in Article 191 of the Treaty. It succeeded the Confederation of Socialist Parties of the European Community, which had been set up in 1974.

And just to compare:

http://www.labour.ie/international/

The Labour Party is fully committed to solidarity with working people throughout the world. For that reason we are active members of the the Party of European Socialists and the Socialist International.

We currently have one sitting MEP - Proinsias De Rossa - in the European Parliament who plays an active role in the PES (Party of European Socialists).

i think you missed the point calling themselves a labour party being a member of the PES does not make them a socialist party

next you will be trying to tell me tony blair is a socialist ffs

cdebru

Sand wrote:

They mightnt have been international socialists, but they were most definitly nationalist socialists. Their economic program wouldnt look too out of place in an Old Labour manifesto. Bar the enslavement and harvesting of non-Aryans of course.

what the banning of trade unions
the removal of women from the work force those kind of policies

the nazis wanted total control over every aspect of life in germany and that included the economy that does not make them socialist


what particular aspects of economic policy do you believe were socialist

Milo

Sand:

Well, first of all FF arent right wing, theyre a populist centre party - effectively theyll jump on whatever bandwagon keeps them in power

So you reckon that FF will go all "left wing pinko", to quote a former finance minister, just to stay in power?? I think not! Fianna Fail consistantly espouse right wing economic policies eg privatisation, tax breaks for the rich, planning scandals..need I go on?

Indeed aren't they a member of the Union for a Europe of Nations....a nice group in the european parliament including:
(i)The National Alliance (Alleanza Nazionale) a right-wing Italian party with links to Mussolini,
(ii)The Danish People's Party (Danish: Dansk Folkeparti) a party which has an anti-immigration platform and wants Denmark to leave the European Union, (iii)Gathering for France (French: Rassemblement pour la France) is a French political party of the right whose leader was named in corruption scandals concerning the public housing projects (sounds familiar.... a la Liam Lawlor and Ray Burke me thinks!) of the Hauts-de-Seine and who also allegedly received corruption money from Saddam Hussein's government in Iraq during the Oil for Food programme.

So for a centre populist party they seem to be keeping bad company... and if they want to be popular maybe they shouldn't be building roads through Tara and the like while changing the routes of others to prevent them from affecting any of their major contributors and closing hospitals !

Sand:

The Government is representing our best interests, and the best interests of all lawful voters North and South by supporting the SDLP, and thus legitimate politics

How is the government representing "our" best interests by supporting a party which has no influence or for that matter voters?? Is it that you would prefer a nice cosy settlement between the SDLP and those terribly nice (and not terrorists) DUP while single handedly ignoring Sinn Fein? I don't think that wouldv'e gotten us very far do you??

Sand

what particular aspects of economic policy do you believe were socialist

This is in real danger of going off-topic, so Ill just link you to the 25 Points which formed the idealogical bedrock of Nazism. From about point 9 on its all very Socialist/Communist - the first 8 points are the ultra nationalism/racism that was all that differentiated them from run of the mill socialists. Though point 7 places the burden of ensuring citizens wellbeing upon the state, which is socialist also.

Like I said, its going off topic. If you want to comment/disagree please pm me or open a new thread.

So you reckon that FF will go all "left wing pinko", to quote a former finance minister, just to stay in power?? I think not! Fianna Fail consistantly espouse right wing economic policies eg privatisation, tax breaks for the rich, planning scandals..need I go on?

That would be the former finance minister who was shoved off to Europe because he was seen as too right? Can you go on and discuss the new tension between the PDs ( who are the only idealogical center right party in the country ) and FF who were flying kites like entering government with the IRA over the PDs?!?!? Let alone Labour. If anything, FF are more left than FG.

FF have swung in recent memory from coalitions with Labour to coalitions with the PDs who are at opposite ends of the idealogical spectrum in Ireland. Theyre political prostitutes, desperate to keep the civil war spirit alive and keep them blueshirt FGers out! Trying to assign them an idealogy beyond that is only an insult to the political idealogy in question.

they want to be popular maybe they shouldn't be building roads through Tara and the like while changing the routes of others to prevent them from affecting any of their major contributors and closing hospitals !

The Tara road will win them votes in that area and it wont cost them that many elsewhere. All politics is local.

How is the government representing "our" best interests by supporting a party which has no influence or for that matter voters?? Is it that you would prefer a nice cosy settlement between the SDLP and those terribly nice (and not terrorists) DUP while single handedly ignoring Sinn Fein? I don't think that wouldv'e gotten us very far do you??

Are we very far now milo? Institutions collapsed, negotiations stopped in their tracks, moderate politicians like Trimble and Hume/Durkan either retired or politically annialated, a hardliner like Paisley now representing Unionism, consitutional nationalism being crushed by terrrorists like SF/IRA who are still killing people, still engaged in criminality, still terrorising communities, still issuing death threats against 13 year olds?

Yeah - hasnt the strategy of undermining the moderates and appeasing the terrorists worked ****ing wonders. Wouldnt it have been great if the December negotiations had worked out? Because then wed have the prospect of SF/IRA running the IRA *and* running the security forces in Northern Ireland! Brilliant eh?

The government is representing our best interests, by recognising that they are best served by a democratic Northern Ireland where the norms of civillised government and debate occur. The stakes are highest in the nationalist community - the DUP might be hardliners but theyre democratic hardliners, who work within the boundaries of the law. SF/IRA on the other hand are unreformed terrorists who actively attempt to undermine the legal system. If they come to represent nationalist Ireland over constitutional democracy then settlement is impossible. Hence the government is operating in everyones interests to support democratic politics in the shape of the SDLP.

oscarBravo

Milo wrote:

Fianna Fail consistantly espouse right wing economic policies eg privatisation, tax breaks for the rich, planning scandals..

Planning scandals are a right wing economic policy?