The Ol' Driving Test

klaus23

Hi all,

Don't worry... I passed my test a long time ago, first time and all. Now it's time for the younger siblings, so last week, my 17 year old brother heads into town to try and get his shaking hands on that elusive pink slip.

He's a useful driver and all. Taken plenty of lessons, no bad habits, considerate driver, excellent car control, slight beginners nerves but no worse than anyone who is expected to pass their test. Obviously I can't comment on his driving directly as I'm not a tester, but I am an IAM member having passed the advanced driving test in the UK, have driven over 300,000 miles and have never had an accident.

So he goes, and he fails, against the expectations of both his driving instructor and me.

Now before you all start with the conspiracy theories about young lads being failed first time anyway, have a read.

He had a female tester who was very snappy and direct. She asked him, as he said, all "the hard questions" in the test centre (which he all knew) and they then proceeded to the car. She had no interest in going through the underbonnet bits (thought that came in recently). As they were pulling off out of the car park she didn't give directions at the very first junction, and throughout the test was, as he said, very late in giving directions while approaching the roundabouts or junctions.

He failed because he got 10 Grade 2 faults. You pass with 9. The breakdown was that he got one for observation (most people do), one for speed (hit 31 mph), one for a late signal on a roundabout (fair enough), and the other six were: 3 for use of the clutch, and 3 for use of the handbrake.

Now these are very, very hard to quantify. I would fault almost every driver I know for clutch control and misuse of it. But what defines "use of the clutch"? We talked about it and I went through anything I could think of, eg slipping the clutch while moving off, resting your foot on the clutch pedal while driving, freewheeling, poor gear changes, but apart from a stall he said he was not doing any of these things. And I know he doesn't because he hasn't got bad clutch habits. Sure, his driving isn't super smooth, but that develops over time.

And use of the handbrake? Again, what does that mean? I asked him if he pulled up the handbrake when on an incline instead of hanging the car on the clutch or footbrake, and he said no.

Of course, you can't ask them, and usually they won't tell you. What puzzles me is that he failed by one mark, and the 'normal' failure reasons (observation) were all ok. It's enough to make me begin to believe that there might well be an agenda in the Driver Testing.

Also, the testers attitude must be questioned. Of course, they have to be a little matter-of-fact, perhaps even direct, but not rude. I had this discussion with my wife's family in England, 8 of them between relatives, husbands, boyfriends etc holding licences, and none said that their instructors were rude. They all commented that they were reasonably friendly and very professional. I mean, being plain ignorant to candidates must be a reason for people being nervous and it affecting their driving.

Thoughts?

Seth Brundle

I would appeal and also make a complaint about the behaviour about this tester. If indeed they were rude then make something of it!

from www.drivingtest.ie/drivingtest/HTMLContent/faqs.html
Q. If I fail the test can I appeal against the decision of the tester?
A. Article 33 of the Road Traffic Act, 1961 provides for an appeal to the District Court. The Court may affirm the decision of the tester or direct that a further test be offered to you free of charge.

Q. How can I make my views known to the Department about any aspect of the driver testing service?
A. Please refer to the Feedback link on this website for further information.

Alun

And use of the handbrake? Again, what does that mean? I asked him if he pulled up the handbrake when on an incline instead of hanging the car on the clutch or footbrake, and he said no.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Surely if you come to a standstill on an incline, the proper procedure is to apply the handbrake, and do a hill-start when moving off, rather than juggling your feet around trying to move your foot from brake to accelerator without slipping backwards. It was when I were a lad, anyway

30-6shooter

Definitely make a complaint. Dont let it go. If more people would complain when neccessary it would get noticed.

Alun

I doubt whether examiners make detailed notes regarding the exact reasons for each fault they tick off on their sheets as they go, so it would be difficult for them to argue a specific case after the fact like that. It would be better all round if they were obliged to go through all the faults one by one after the test while it was fresh in their minds.

I reckon that the chances are they'd just offer another test to anyone who complains, although with regard to the alleged brusqueness, I'd imagine that if too many complaints were lodged against one examiner, then alarm bells would begin to ring somewhere.

klaus23

Alun wrote:

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Surely if you come to a standstill on an incline, the proper procedure is to apply the handbrake, and do a hill-start when moving off, rather than juggling your feet around trying to move your foot from brake to accelerator without slipping backwards. It was when I were a lad, anyway

You are correct - what I mean is that he was following proper procedure in applying the handbrake, and not doing Riverdance trying to hold the car in place.

Alun

klaus23 wrote:

You are correct - what I mean is that he was following proper procedure in applying the handbrake, and not doing Riverdance trying to hold the car in place.

Sorry, I thought you were saying the reverse there I like the term 'Riverdance', though ... I'll have to remember that!

Stephen

I thought speeding (i know 31mph, nasty) was an instant fail rather than a grade 2 fault?

bp_me

A little off topic, but just to relate my own experience.

I had my first test aound mid february. I failed. 13 grade 2s I think.

I had my 2nd test 6 weeks later. Passed. 3 grade 2s.

It was the opinion of anyone I spoke to that I should have passed the first time. I admit I did have a few more lessons before the second one, but my instructor said that there wasnt much wrong and I should have passed on the day.

It seems to me that it depends on the tester you get and the mood he/she was in on the day.

seamus

Stephen wrote:

I thought speeding (i know 31mph, nasty) was an instant fail rather than a grade 2 fault?

How would a tester know you were doing 31mph? Most cars with digital readouts wouldn't face the passenger seat. Even then, expecting a person to hold exactly <= 30mph would be unreasonable.

bp_me

seamus wrote:

How would a tester know you were doing 31mph? Most cars with digital readouts wouldn't face the passenger seat. Even then, expecting a person to hold exactly <= 30mph would be unreasonable.

Well, hypothetically it could be seen in a c4 or any renault with a digital dash. Of course they are calibrated so that at 30mph indicated its 27-28 actual.

edit:
the speed section can also mean the inappropriate use of speed though. E.g. doing 30 down a narrow road with cars parked on both sides and two way traffic.

jhegarty

Stephen wrote:

I thought speeding (i know 31mph, nasty) was an instant fail rather than a grade 2 fault?

sorry, anyone notice the change of signs.. the speed limit is 31.06mph (50kph) now...so ask for that mark back...

Eoin

jhegarty wrote:

sorry, anyone notice the change of signs.. the speed limit is 31.06mph (50kph) now...so ask for that mark back...

Yeah, I was going to say the same - 31MPH is within the speed limit. I remember when I was doing my test, I was told to break the speed limit - do a steady 32-33 MPH or I would be failed for not making enough progress. There's no pleasing some people :rolleyes:

seamus wrote:

How would a tester know you were doing 31mph? Most cars with digital readouts wouldn't face the passenger seat. Even then, expecting a person to hold exactly <= 30mph would be unreasonable.

This is probably a total urban myth, but I seem to remember someone saying that certain cars like mine are not allowed in the test because they do not provide the instructor with a clear view of the speedo. Probably complete crap though.

Seth Brundle

No matter what car the test is done in the tester does not have a proper view of the (analogue) speedo. They are designed to be viewed by the driver and if looked at from another angle the speed can appear to be different from reality.

bp_me

eoin_s wrote:

This is probably a total urban myth, but I seem to remember someone saying that certain cars like mine are not allowed in the test because they do not provide the instructor with a clear view of the speedo. Probably complete crap though.

Correct, total urban myth. I did mine in a toyota yaris, in which it is impossible for the passenger to see the speedo at all.

I had heard the urban myth before hand, so checked it out. The answer is "they know when you are going too fast".

Every passenger knows this though. You can feel when the car is going to fast for the situation, and you really just want to hold on for dear life.

30-6shooter

Well Klaus,,, what did you do??? Apeal it did ya?