Honour system (pvp) opinions

Dustaz

Memnoch wrote:

solution - Play on a PvE server, and when you want to be attacked while questing and leveling simply turn on your PvP flag. When you've had enough, turn it off again.

Once again, no. I like pvp servers and i like pvp. What exactly pvp is and 'should be' ill get into later.

the old system was crap. There was no reward for PvPing, only for PvEing. Which is kind of silly on a PvP server. hell if they made it possible to only gain exp by PvPing on the PvP server i'd be in favor of it. The reason you didn't get attacked much before was because PvP was largely pointless. What's the point in killing someone when they will just res in a few seconds with nothing to loose and nothing for you to gain. Now you gain honor points, which can lead potentially to some nice items, which is great. If you want to do other stuff go in instances, there are pleanty around for each level. Otherwise the PvE servers await. TBH though once the battle grounds are implemented in a month or two (max), then this will no longer be a problem as most PvPers will spend their time there. Meanwhile this gives those of us who have hit level 60 and are tired and bored of constantly farming instances something fun to do.

I think this is the fundamental point were disagreeing on. Bliz's current system rewards and incentivizes pvp with no risk/reward system. It rewards and incentivizes the type of pvp that many people do not like. It encourages zerg raiding, which is just not fun. It encourages 5v1, which is not fun. It encourages the type of play more commonly seen on counterstrike servers. It turns the game into honour farming.

Battlegrounds should fix the zerging in most areas, but i fail to see how it will stop gank squads. The path of least resistance will not be in battlegrounds, it will still be in winterspring, felwood and areas like that.

Lastly, I fully agree that the end game that blizzard have provided gets boring. I spent my last 2 levels running the same instances on the US and can see that without a decent guild to do MC and onyxia, the other instance runs can get boring quick. The lack of advancement is a problem at 60. Thats why i think that HK's should only apply to lvl 60 players. It provides advancement and allieviates all the other major problems with the honour system. Its a pity that blizzard have put their head under the sand and more or less said 'wait till battlegrounds'.

Let me see.. play the WoW intro... what does it say? "The tenuous pact between the horde and alliance has failed. The drums of war thunder once more". drums of war .

So the voiceover on the game now takes precedence to the manual where it says ' the factions are not in open war'? Or where it says theres a system of dishonour?

The point of a PvP server is to PvP.

Again, thats a matter of opinion. In your opinion it is. In mine and many others the point of a pvp server is not solely pvp. Apparently not in blizzards either because there answer to these problems is that when battlegrounds come in, the problems im complaining about will stop (I just dont think they will, but well see)

CivilServant

Until blizzard sort out group ganking, there'll be no honour in pvp. The usual scenario is victory by number not skill. Luckily I'm a mage like memnoch and can aoe, thereby tagging a group of enemies let my alliance buddies kill them off and still get HKs for them. Rogues are goin on the the rampage now. They were already too strong in before the patch, but now they're totally overpowered. Sinister crits for 600+ with one button push, backstab 1000+, eviscerate, forget about it. There is no balance is the current pvp iteration.

Bliz shoud put the honour system on hold until battlegrounds comes out. There I can see it working well, because everyone there will a) be up for pvp fighting b) have an even playing field. Atm bliz doesn't take into account 5 players taking on one player.

On a more positive note I do like participating in giant raids, epsecially in Tauren Mill. The ebb and flow of alliance v horde from TM to SouthShore and back again for 4 hours yesterday lol. It was a lot of fun, racked up 400 HKs. This is what I hope battlegrounds will be like. With strategic points to capture and hold. It was greating standing just behind the front lines and see a hundred horde vying for blood. But what I don't like is a grp of 5+ horde ravaging people who are questing. The days of soloing are over, and if you want to get any decent questing done you're forced to grp much like the EQ days where u basically had to grp to get anything done.

Lvl 56 mage, Mannoroth US server.

Matt Simis

CivilServant wrote:

Until blizzard sort out group ganking, there'll be no honour in pvp. The usual scenario is victory by number not skill. Luckily I'm a mage like memnoch and can aoe, thereby tagging a group of enemies let my alliance buddies kill them off and still get HKs for them.

HK dont really mean anything however.. your rank is not based on that HK figure. Rogues are talked up a lot on forums, but are really more of a concern if you solo a lot. As half of a Mage-Warlock (lvl54) duo, rogues are extremely annoying, but not overpowering..


Matt

Caliden

cant wait till all those ganking noobies find out they get **** all honour points cause of the level difference.
will probably sort it out, once they find out they got 5 points for ganking 200 level 20's and under

tobi

I think it would be nice to see some structured pvping in areas like Gurubashi Arena instead of the current craziness. Hold tournament formats such as 1v1, 2v2 and 5v5 each player pays to enter the tournament with the eventually winner taking the pot and possible winning an epic item. The duelling system is already in place so it shouldn’t be too hard to implement.

DRakE

Dustaz I think the only option for you is to just go play on a pve server...

if u cant take d pain from d horde then u shudn't be on PvP!

Drakar

Interesting blue post on the message boards btw:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?FN=wow-general&T=2761331&P=1

Dishonor for killing unimportant npcs will be introduced in the next patch (no dishonor for killing players though), battlegrounds (plural) will be in too which they seem to think will reduce the gankage enough, and also a crude estimation of the contribution points added will be displayed after each kill (yay).

Fenster

Well the US servers are a few days ahead of you guys. Other than isolated ganking and big raids (talking SS-TM and Chillwind-Bulwark), 5v5 seems to be the format people are settling on. I spent a good two hours running around WPL earlier in a full party. I got maybe 50 kills in that time (died six times, rawr), all of which, I gather, will count for more than spamming AoEs at TM.

The Corinthian

I’ll have to say I agree and disagree with both Memnoch and Dustaz in various degrees here. I’m on a Normal server, largely because I already had friends playing on it, but also because I had a feeling that playing on a server that had an emphasis on PvP game play was going to cause problems. So now, on the server I’m on, I can still PvP when I fancy or quest / xp if I prefer. So to a degree, what Memnoch says is true - I think too many people jumped onto the PvP servers without considering what it would mean once the honour system kicked in and now they’re regretting their decision.

So to Dustaz I would suggest moving to a Normal server and stop whinging so much. Terenas has a good few Bordsies on it

On the other hand from what I can see the PvP servers are now becoming unplayable for characters between levels 20 and 45-ish. Soloing is out, for a start, and even with company, you still have a good chance that you’ll get whacked and spawn-camped by some level 60 adolescent who lives in some depressing German industrial town where mullets are still fashionable. Or Memnoch. This leaves us with a situation where level progression has become painful to the point of unplayable on PvP servers for the poor sods who are forced into the contested zones without a paddle. Here I just think that Blizzard just hasn’t got the game balance right yet - indeed they seem to admit this and that they are banking on the introduction of the battlegrounds to redress the issue. And if this fails to solve it, then I think that the rules will likely be changed for PvP servers before too long.

So to Memnoch I would suggest starting an alt and seeing how playable it is to work up from level 20 onwards on a PvP server before pontificating any further

Drakar

Levelling is quite possible, but now it needs to be done in groups, and or instances. Solo quests outside of instances require alot of patience and luck. I really wouldn't like to be someone who had the kill 100 spiders so that one might drop something silly in TM quest at the moment though :P

I for one would not be regretting my choice of a PvP server (I think the others might say the same). I think what people are just pointing out is that suddenly it's become alot more difficult than it used to be. Hopefully the scale of this difficulty increase is purely because of the lack of battlegrounds. IMO it will still be more difficult even when battlegrounds come in and take off, but I think that will be ok. What people object to at the moment is that a large proportion of the population are running around purely to gank people, instead of the previous "incidental" gankage.

Dubhthamlacht

For me, lvl 28 Hunter (Muineachain) on Bladefist, the PVP has gone bonkers over the weekend. I couldn't walk around Ashenvale or Hillsbrad without some lvl 60 Alliance bashing me around the head. I enjoy the PVP action but high levels picking on low levels is just a pain in the butt. I know I wouldn't waste my time doing likewise when I hit the higher lvls. I accept that I will get ganked from time to time and god knows, I know I've blasted some alliance to kingdom come when they were mining/fishing/middle of a quest so I'm okay with that. Thats fair game to me but for all the high lvl juvenile muppets with nothing to do they really oughta know better

Dustaz

The Corinthian wrote:

So to Dustaz I would suggest moving to a Normal server and stop whinging so much. Terenas has a good few Bordsies on it

Yeh, i realise i do come across as a total whinger, but thats fine. I just cant believe blizzard made the mistakes with this system that they did. I also doubt id move to a pve server even if they did offer transfers purely because i like pvp and wanted that ruleset.

Incidentally, does anyone else whos played other pvp games find the idea of people calling this system 'true pvp' laughable?

Matt Simis

I would like to mention that after playing every day since the patch was introduced.. things arent so bad.

If you want to get huge Honor Kills (pointless as they are).. goto Tarren Mill. If you want quest, dont solo (solo'ing - which I have to admit is almost anti-RPG). Im pleasantly surprised that people still wave, when out and about questing and they dont want to fight. Unlike others here, I respect that and usually wave back and move on.

Could be very different on other servers (Deathwing here), but the honor patch added a benefit to defending against the ganking.. now when ambushed by higher lvls and winning (or even only killing one), there is some satisfaction that it counts for something.

Funny Moment post-patch:
Lowbies asking for help in SunRock, lvl?? attacking. So I (lvl54 at the time) went there and "supported" the 8 lvl25s against an attack by 3 lvl60s (who obviously dont know they get no points for killing lvl25s). The lvl60s noticed they were taking a lot of damage/DoTs, but couldnt pick out the high lvl player in the mob. They ran and got swarmed and killed by the low lvls.. a good boost to morale for all!



Matt

koneko

Went quite well this weekend. Tarren MIll must be a nightmare to quest in, but to be honest, you don't need to quest there, go somewhere else. I think I did maybe 2 quests there ever, so just avoid the place altogether for now (unless you're raiding), as it's generally the Battlegrounds area atm (on our server anyway - Deathwing).

It'll settle down imo after a few weeks (maybe even less), but I've had some interesting battles that would have just been pass & wave before. Nothing bad so far, but it might be a totally different story for lower levels. Had fun killing 60s yesterday (stupid noob paladins).

Memnoch

cornithian - I think you actually hit the nail on the head there. I think a lot of the people whining now had a very wrong idea of what the PvP server was meant to be like.

The truth is before the honor system there was hardly any difference between PvP and PvE servers except that occasionaly someone would gank you. Whereas in the PvE server no one ever ganked you.

I knew that this is what it would be like once there was an incentive to PvP. And PvP "progression" was in game. So i got to level 60 long ago. And tbh I know pleanty of casual gamers that are level 60 by now.

However there are a couple of common misconceptions that people keep moaning about with regards to the honor system.

1) Honor system encourages grey ganking. This has to be by far the stupidest thing anyone has said about World of warcraft. You get 0 points for killing greys. The fact is that there is no more incentive or reason to kill greys now than there was before the honor system. So to say that the honor system makes level 60's run around killing level 20's is stupidity in the least and purposefully misleading at most. In fact believe it or not the honor system does actually discourage killing greys. Because people would rather spend their time getting honor points. Now off course there are some idiots who don't understand how the honor system works and they "think" that ganking greys will help them somehow. But you can't blame blizzard or the honor system for the actions of such morons.

2) Honor system is causing people to kill all quest npcs. Again retarded. Quest NPC's don't give honor. The only places quest npcs die are big PvP town raids in SS/Tm. And since these are kind of the "unofficial" battle grounds u might as well quest/exp elsewhere. Anyways they are adding in dishonor for low level NPC kills next patch so that should discourage this even more.

ALL the honor system does is to encourage PvP. The fact is that two-three level 48's can easily gank a level 60 caster or run away from a level 60 warrior should they want to.

Also ppl that are worried about "gank squads" when battle grounds come out are also morons. Anyone who wants to farm honor points will try to do this in the most efficient way possible. This will be in the battle grounds. Running around winterspring etc ganking 5-10 lowbies an hour for **** all points is a waste of time.

And yes, the whingers don't belong on PvP servers. All this quest in peace business wrecks my head :P

CivilServant

Matt Simis wrote:

HK dont really mean anything however.. your rank is not based on that HK figure. Rogues are talked up a lot on forums, but are really more of a concern if you solo a lot. As half of a Mage-Warlock (lvl54) duo, rogues are extremely annoying, but not overpowering..


Matt

HK is significant, better to have HKs than not to. Of course contribution points are where the real calculations are done. And I'm saying rogues vs cloths users, esp mages, 1v1 are overpowered. Because when they get the jump on u, blink, frost nova, sheep, then all ur outs are gone and all you can do is kill them or run away. Sap, gouge, cheap shot, kidney shot, blind, sprint, vanish how can u beat that? Rogues have too many options to kill you and/or get away if things go wrong.

So 1v1 they are overpowered, but the more you have in your group the more it evens the playing field.

The Corinthian

Memnoch wrote:

I knew that this is what it would be like once there was an incentive to PvP. And PvP "progression" was in game. So i got to level 60 long ago. And tbh I know pleanty of casual gamers that are level 60 by now.

That’s all very well for you, but for the poor suckers under level 60, it’s little comfort as they find that progression becomes practically impossible. And like it or not, if it get to be unplayable for long enough, then you and the other players who managed to get to level 60 in time will be the only one’s left.

But you can't blame blizzard or the honor system for the actions of such morons.

Well you can - if a game isn’t balanced, it isn’t balanced and it’s their fault. Remember, what we’re supposed to have in WoW is two factions that have antipathy towards each other (a cold war of sorts), what we have at present is out and out war.

Presently PvP is new and everyone’s at it. We can only hope that it’ll die down to a degree as people go back to questing. The eventual introduction of battlegrounds and dishonour points will hopefully further calm the present situation, but until then if you’re between level 20 and 50 or so, you’re screwed - simple as that. And this assumes that these eventual patches actually do solve the problem.

And the longer it remains unplayable for players between level 20 and 50 or so, the more will walk away. After all, games have fallen from favour for less in the past.

quozl

The few lvl 60s who are too dumb to have realised that ganking greys gets them nothing will work it out given a bit more time. Things seem to be calming down a tad in the US aready. I honestly think the cries of impending doom are a bit pre-mature and people need to wait to see how it pans out.

Once battlegrounds comes out that should get a lot of the people who want to pvp out of the levelers hair as well. Though you'll always have the odd rogue twat who likes to stealth around ganking newbies.

quozl

The Corinthian wrote:

And the longer it remains unplayable for players between level 20 and 50 or so, the more will walk away. After all, games have fallen from favour for less in the past.

This I particularly wanted to argue with. The players I know who aren't level 60 are still doing just fine leveling up. Even with the honour system/new toy rush at the moment.

I think you're deliberately being over-dramatic or you need to stop questing in Tarren Mills/STV till people calm down

Caliden

im going on 32rd and im dreading going to STV @_@

feking rogues

DRakE

Ditto,

going on 29

DeVore

STV is a disaster on our server. I totally agree with Dustaz and I dont think the rather high handed and imperious pronouncements from the pro-"PVP"ers are helpful.

I wanted to fight with the horde. I'm on a PVP server and god knows I have a knack for orchestrating all our f*ckin' wars as Amp will testify

However I dont want to be *farmed* with no chance of EVER winning, regardless of my skill at the game.

The problem as I see it is the lack of downside for killing greys, theres a certain sense of "kill 'em all , God will know his own!" .. ie: gank everything, if I get a HK, cool, if not ah well, another dead enemy.

DeV.

Drakar

There's a competition on the US website where players win tickets into a draw for prizes based on their pvp ranking. This isn't overly interesting on its own, but they do provide a table of how many tickets you get for each rank, which must be somewhat tied to the proportion of people they expect at each rank... (ie I'm thinking one can use it to guesstimate how difficult it would be to reach the different PvP rankings through the collection of CPs)
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/contests/05-04-19-honorsystem/

quozl

DeVore wrote:

However I dont want to be *farmed* with no chance of EVER winning, regardless of my skill at the game.

The point is that you won't be. People will learn that they get nothing for killing greys soon enough. If they do get contribution points then you can reasonably gang up on them and kill them.

2 level 48s should kill a level 60 unless their classes happen to be the rock to the level 60s classes paper.

JohnMcMahon

I like it - there's a real element of danger to contested areas now.

I'm a 33 Tauren Warrior on Bloodscalp and I'm easygoing when it comes to PVP - don't attack lower levels or even start with folks in or around my own level. Since the patch, I've been in several PVP scraps and they've all been fun - gets the old blood pumping - there's a genuine sense of danger when (say) I'm stalking through the marshes of the Wetlands.

I still don't get why 'skull lvl' players hunt down and kill folks they won't get any HP for but some guys'n'gals are just born arseholes.

Dustaz

JohnMcMahon wrote:

I still don't get why 'skull lvl' players hunt down and kill folks they won't get any HP for but some guys'n'gals are just born arseholes.

Blizzard in their INFINITE wisdom made it so that in some cases, when you see ?? as someones level, you are still green to them (ie lvl 48 to a 60). This is one of the particularly retarded things about the system. People are starting to realise that someone 12 lvls below you wont give MUCH honour but even the little they give is enough incentive for some people.


Ive gotten used to the system a little since its started. Been basically running instances and doing zone quests very late at night or in a 5 man. The utter pain about it is that since i dont have a lot of time to play because of work, i have to hope that my regular 5 man group hasnt gone ahead without me by the time i get home. It has seriously curtailed the solo aspect of the game i enjoyed.

kipple

I would like to see the ratio of Kill/Deaths taken into account.

The PvP award system is not very satisfying for me; it is all about individuals getting individual awards. A quick fix that has no real substance.

Also player tests suggest that the system is not working as advertised in regards to points getting split between players in groups.


T.

Ivan

kipple wrote:

The PvP award system is not very satisfying for me; it is all about individuals getting individual awards. A quick fix that has no real substance.

Well, thats really only because the group aspect isnt really encouraged. Wait until battlegrounds or head to Tauren Mill, STV or ashenvale during peak times and ask to join a raid group. You'll usually get one...

kipple

Wait until battlegrounds or head to Tauren Mill, STV or ashenvale during peak times and ask to join a raid group.

Battlegrouds I hope so. My point was that there is no game mechanic that allows a raid to achieve anything other that get points for the people on the raid. Sure you can cause an annoyance for the other side, you are just as likely to provide entertainment for them.

I think a lot of the people whining now had a very wrong idea of what the PvP server was meant to be like.

To be fair the game is out 6 months (?) in the US and then there is a big change and people hate change. Blizzard never really published a vision for the PVP system.

But really it is still a carebear system. How about you lose a level and all you stuff if killed in PvP. That would really give people something to complain about.

I would like to see more element of risk in the game in general. I dont like the current PvP system but I also think the game is too easy in a lot of ways.


T.

Caliden

kipple wrote:

But really it is still a carebear system. How about you lose a level and all you stuff if killed in PvP. That would really give people something to complain about.

I would like to see more element of risk in the game in general. I dont like the current PvP system but I also think the game is too easy in a lot of ways.


T.

losing exp? if that actually happened i would seriusly stop playing the game.
can you imagine level 60 rogues farming STV by praying upon lower levels and they drop stuff.

super retarded tbh but nice try.

sihonourable kills tbh, and that 48 -vs- 60bug where their level is a skull is ****ed up as the 48 appears green to the 60 @_@

needs to be fixed