Honour system (pvp) opinions

Memnoch

dishonorable kills (loosing honor points) would probably be the most retarded thing you would implement in the game, because it would be so ridiculously open to abuse and exploitation and destroy any and all pvp in the game.

"Hey guys horde are attacking stormwind to kill the king!"

"oh no, quickly everyone log onto your level 10 alts and run to the king!"

Masses of level 10 alts run into horde aoeing the guards in storm wind. Masses of level 10 alts die and horde players get massive dishonor points for trying to raid the capital.

end result? death of pvp.

This is only one example there are many others of how dishonor would destroy PvP utterly, and i'm sure anyone with half a brain can figure them out.

DeVore

What about simply stopping them hitting them. My aoe's dont hit friendlies....

Currently its neither fish nor fowl. Its stopping people leveling solo, and its not really anything PVPish apart from mass AOE spam and huge lag. Hopefully it will quieten down.

I have to laugh though at the people saying "they will learn that they get nothing from greys". They used to get nothing from greys BEFORE the honor system... they STILL ganked greys on respawn.... why would they stop now?!

DeV.

Memnoch

DeVore wrote:

What about simply stopping them hitting them. My aoe's dont hit friendlies....

that's how it works on a PvE server. If you don't have a PvP flag on you don't get hit. So what's the point of a PvP server if u want to simply add the same features to it? As i said before, everything ppl are complaining about is availible on the PvE servers. Also again as i said that was just ONE example and anyone with half a brain could figure out a MILLION other ways to abuse the system. Lets say u are fighting an enemy group and there are enemy lowbies standing around. It's a tough fight and then as both groups are low on hp the enemies get healed by lowbie healers. I mean a level 45 priest can still heal a lvl 60 pretty well. So you say "once" they heal they are PvP enabled. and I say... this is HOW it works on the PvE servers. Also it's completely retarded, because that means you can't take out the enemy healers first you have to wait for them to start healing which ruins any sort of strategy of eliminating the enemy healers first. As i said, anyone with half a brain can see how many millions of ways there are of abusing a dishonor system in PvP. And as for making lowbies unkillable, that feature already exists on the PvE servers.

Currently its neither fish nor fowl. Its stopping people leveling solo, and its not really anything PVPish apart from mass AOE spam and huge lag. Hopefully it will quieten down.

the lag doesn't seem that bad anymore. And again it's not the fault of the honor system that people zerg. Play ANY mmorpg with PvP, in the majority of them inclduing DAOC/SWG you will find that people zerg. This has nothing to do with the honor system. This has simply to do with teh fact that people feel safer in large numbers and numbers confer an advantage in a fight, so people zerg. They will always zerg as long as they can, and this has NOTHING whatsoever to do with the honor system. All the honor system does in encourage PvP, it doesn't encourage zerging, in fact it discourages it since you earn less points in a zerg. Already the more skilled players are starting to hunt in groups of 2-5 players because its much better for farming points/.

I have to laugh though at the people saying "they will learn that they get nothing from greys". They used to get nothing from greys BEFORE the honor system... they STILL ganked greys on respawn.... why would they stop now?!

DeV.

Exactly - these people will gank no matter what. So don't blame the honor system for it. I'm not disputing that there are people who gank in the PvP server. And frankly i see no reason why they shouldn't be able to gank on a PvP server. But the FACT of the matter is that grey ganking has ABOSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the honor system. The reasons to gank or not to gank are the same as they were before. The only exception being big battle zones like SS-TM where u have to kill the greys as they are actually a part of the fight, and are healing the enemy + dealing damage to u

Dustaz

news just in from the US version.

If you dont get a certain amount of contribution points , your total is disregarded and reset, earning you no reward whatsoever. lmao.

Tusky

Dustaz wrote:

news just in from the US version.

If you dont get a certain amount of contribution points , your total is disregarded and reset, earning you no reward whatsoever. lmao.

are you serious ? that is rediculous.

Memnoch

ya but ur HK has to be stupid low for that to happen. This guy had like 20 HK or something. I mean u can get like a couple of hundred in an hour easy . I mean ppl in my guild had like 2k HK on the first evening. So even just PvPing for one evening u should be ok.

DeVore

Memnoch I have the strongest suspicion that along with fuming at the mouth you are missing my point. I dont want to play on a PvE server, I *like* PvP. I like always being able to hit someone and be hit/ambushed. Thats ok!

I dont think the honor system was a bad idea. I think it was a good and logical one. Implemented poorly.

I want to be able to war with the Horde but what I dont want is to consistently be prey to roaming hoards of, well, horde where I have no chance in beating them and get farmed for no reason except they want their trinkets. Its a BAD GAME when that happens (ignore analogies with real life, think of it from a game design viewpoint).

If I was going to implement this I'd make it no more then 5 levels below for honor kills, max with no upper level. I'd make groups pay a huge penalty for killing people below their average (ie: the HP they get should be divide not by their number of members but by, say, the square of them). What honor is there in five 48's ganging up on one 46? In mass zerging this would reward the mid and low levels for fighting their opposite numbers while the big guns targetted the big guns.

Its a difficult thing to get right but the rather uncomplicated "smack it and you might get some reward, ah what the hell smack everything, theres no downside" approach is simply pants.

The final nail in its coffin for me is that since its been introduced, the game isnt as enticing as it was before. The "battles" are spam-a-thons and before you say that isnt the Honor Systems fault, remember the honor system is Blizzards effort to make battles more then that. Its patently failed since while (as you point out) it hasnt made things worse, its certainly hasnt actually DONE anything to make it better. Its "failure by lack of success".

DeV.

BKtje

What i think would help enormously would be to actually show how many points you get after every kill (i realise you can't get a rank till end of week) as this would show every player that a raid group of 20 killing a handful of guys a lot lower than them gives them so little in contribution points that its not worth their while. People may realise this anyway in a few weeks when they realise how few points they got but then again they may not.

koneko

I liked the idea of dishonour points initially, and was disappointed when they weren't implemented, but then when a bunch of lvl30s decided to raid Splintertree and kill our lvl20s, we were the only people around that could help them. With dishonour points, I would have been stuck saying "sorry lads, can't help yes, you'll have to die, I'll get dishonour points otherwise".

It's very tricky, and I don't see a perfect solution.

quozl

DeVore wrote:

I have to laugh though at the people saying "they will learn that they get nothing from greys". They used to get nothing from greys BEFORE the honor system... they STILL ganked greys on respawn.... why would they stop now?!
DeV.

Tadaa! You just made my point for me. You said the honour system was to blame for people farming greys, whereas people having been killing greys since day one. The honour system actually discourages people from killing greys as they can now kill non-greys and get a reward. So why waste time killing or camping a lowbie?

And like I said earlier in the thread, you'll always have a few rogue twats stealing around ganking newbies. The honour system won't affect that mindset at all.

Thanks Dev

Drakar

Ooooh, the flames they burn!! The goggles they do nothing!

Apparently in the next patch you will be able to get a rough estimation of how many CPs earned each time you make a kill.

Also (from Blizzard Insider), here's some stuff from the devs on why they decided not to go with a dishonour system for the moment (looks like there are ways around it though...): http://www.wow-europe.com/en/pvp/pvp-rewards-interview.html

The PvP seems to be quietning down a bit too methinks. Occasionally I get ganked, that was happening before though so I'm not losing sleep over it. I think the honor system has just given people more focus, where previously many people had a "if they leave me alone I'll leave them alone" attitude. I think I've had more fights initiated by people who are around level than are way over. Maybe I've just been lucky though.

[edit] Oh, and instead of free graphics cards and free gametime like they are getting in the US, for the EU pvp competition, the top ranked player for each race gets a special tabbard.

CodeMonkey

quozl wrote:

Tadaa! You just made my point for me. You said the honour system was to blame for people farming greys, whereas people having been killing greys since day one. The honour system actually discourages people from killing greys as they can now kill non-greys and get a reward. So why waste time killing or camping a lowbie?

And like I said earlier in the thread, you'll always have a few rogue twats stealing around ganking newbies. The honour system won't affect that mindset at all.

There's potential for an increase of greys being ganked because of all the PVP activities. The honour system doesn't encourage people deliberately going out hunting greys but it doesn't discourage gangs killing every grey they come across. I think people are just annoyed with blizzard's concept of the honour system. There is no honour in killing someone because you ambushed them or because you outnumbered them 5 to 1. I hate the fact that when I die under those circumstances I am contributing to a honour kill. It does nothing to change the immature kiddie mindset. It should just be renamed to just kills and reserve honour kills to duels or arena fights with people around your level. Then again that's just me. I am sure all ya hardcore PVPers disagrees.

Ivan

Bost post of this thread ^^

D

Personally I feel that honour penalties are a bad idea, like what most people say making the honour you recieve from killing lower level players or outnumbered lower level players a hell of a lot less. Also I'd actually like to see AoE attack friendlies.

Static M.e.

It will all right itself in time and the mayority of people will stop ganking lowbies simply due to the fact that they get nothing for it and its waste's Mana \ energy when their could very easily be a lvl 60 around the corner who they need to be always ready for.

As more and more people ding 60 PvP will become the focus \ battlegrounds etc where they will have the chance to earn lots of points against people their own lvl rather than the few you might get running around the xp area's.

Their will of course always be gankers and you always have the fear when you pull one to many mobs that a rogue is waiting for you or by some random event someone higher than you happens to pass your way and kills you.

And since everyone is throwing in a solution to the madness ! here's mine
If you kill to many lowbies consistently allow the player to be targeted by both sides "No where to run to baby, no where to hide .... "

Ivan

I had the most fun I've ever had, pking last night. Was wondering around STV in druid catform with track humanoid. Amazing skill, especially when its combined with stealth

The amount of people I ass raped while they xp'ed, it felt so dirty but it was SO enjoyable. People dont appreciate the effort rogues have to put into kills (sometimes). I stalked 5 alliance around for 30 minutes before another rogue came and we were able to slaughter them in perfectly timed ambushes.

Still, my favourite point of the whole day was when I ganked a 38 rogue (me being 34 druid) while he was bandaging.

LoLth

personally i think you should be able to loot corpses or get awarded an item off the guy you kill. Have a certain amount of items taggable as "soulbound" - just a useful phrase for my purposes, not the way blizzard eman it, ie: they dont get looted. the rest is fair game, or perhaps several random items get awarded to the victor from your inventory.

Duelling should have a stakes option (I bet my sword vs your armour in a duel).

This point building just encourages the massacre of lower levels and not combat against opponents of equal or higher level as they will have items of most use to you.

Just my opinion.

DeVore

That would be cool but since the swords and whatnot are worth real money.... you run into the Wire act of AMerica where a chunk of states arent allowed to gamble over the phonelines (it affects online poker too, which is also a game of skill, like PVPing).

I'd love to be able to loot the bodies of an item, would make all those lone 60's fear groups of marauding 48's

DeV.