Mental training of martial arts

tomsie100

Just wondering if any of you had real mental training in martial arts.
Ive heard its pretty rare, would be great if there someone teaching it
in and around galway. Love to hear some stories.

Roper

I've gone mental a few times in training..........

pma-ire

tomsie100 wrote:

Just wondering if any of you had real mental training in martial arts.
Ive heard its pretty rare, would be great if there someone teaching it
in and around galway. Love to hear some stories.

What do you mean by "mental training" ??

columok

My opinion...

Mental development in Martial Arts training comes from facing yourself. Facing you ego and pushing yourself in training and competition allows you to cut away a lot of the bullsh1t that we bring into pretty much every activity in our lives. In the moment where you stop trying to do something and just do it you lose all the fronting and just do.

I dont believe that spiritual development through MAs and come through philosophising or special rituals. The benefit is in the doing and not in the talking about doing.

This is why I believe that any sporting activity or physical activity that pushes the individual beyond their safe zone can give spiritual development. The notion that martial arts are unique in this way seems crazy to me.

paddyc

NLP by any chance ???

read books on spartans... it much cheaper


go tell the spartans, stranger passing by.........

pma-ire

I'm not wanting to start one here with you (because I agree with the thrust of your comment).

But The below comment is self contradicting?

columok wrote:

I dont believe that spiritual development through MAs and come through philosophising or special rituals. The benefit is in the doing and not in the talking about doing.

This is why I believe that any sporting activity or physical activity that pushes the individual beyond their safe zone can give spiritual development. The notion that martial arts are unique in this way seems crazy to me.

There is ritual in everything we do, it's human nature! And ritual can lead to spiritual development (look at the Roman Catholic Church ). "Talking about" is also very important as you need to understand the "Why". Firstly "Why am I...", then "Why (How) did I..."

Eastern culture embraces this much more than western, and so the "TMA" that do follow this theory are only reflecting there own cultural norm.

Roper

No, let's start one. Thats what boards are for!

There is ritual in everything we do, it's human nature! And ritual can lead to spiritual development (look at the Roman Catholic Church ). "Talking about" is also very important as you need to understand the "Why". Firstly "Why am I...", then "Why (How) did I..."

Ritual is an attempt by humans to add substance to that which they do not understand. Throughout the ages humans have used ritual and mysticism to add meaning to instinct. That doesn't make it right!
In the martial arts sense, the why am I questions of so called "martial arts philosophy" are deeply and fundamentally flawed for the most part. Mostly because philosophy is best left to philosophers, but also because most people don't ask the right questions due to an obsession with maintaining ritual and regressive thinking. Hence the answers they give themselves fit in with whatever paradigm they operate in.

I feel a bit of a hypocrite here in a way as my class still bows in , though in itself it's more of a greeting or procedure than any ritualistic obsession.

In short, asking questions- good. Contriving answers for yourself rather than accepting truth- bad. Basing answers on unrealistic evidence of effectiveness- unscientific.

mark.leonard

tomsie100 wrote:

Just wondering if any of you had real mental training in martial arts.
Ive heard its pretty rare, would be great if there someone teaching it
in and around galway. Love to hear some stories.

Do you train in some martial art in Galway already Tomsie?

columok

In my opinion...

Organised religion stunts emotional and spiritual development because it places limits (based on tradition) on a persons growth.

Organised philosophy in Martial arts does the same in my opinion.

There is no contradiction in saying that do develop spiritually you have to let go of trying to develop spiritually.

Eastern culture embraces this much more than western, and so the "TMA" that do follow this theory are only reflecting there own cultural norm.

Eastern culture embraces this in an eastern way rather than a better or more evolved way.

Roper,

good points.

dent

Roper wrote:

I feel a bit of a hypocrite here in a way as my class still bows in , though in itself it's more of a greeting or procedure than any ritualistic obsession.

Bow in the Jujutsu club I'm in at the start and end of every class. Is this a ritual? I understand the reason I'm doing it etc and I don't think there is any harm in it.

The only type taught "spiritual development" I have come across in Jujutsu is when we where doing some sword kata's ( The only form of katas we do). One of the instructors said "Before you draw you must reach a level of perfect awareness", I nearly choked trying to keep in either laughter or horror. It was the first time I came across blatant BS in Jujutsu.

The other instructor wasn't there that night and I know he would have choked if he had heard it. Thankfully that kind of BS has not being repeated again.

I guess I ( shock horror) agree with Columok on this one.

Roper

Organised religion stunts emotional and spiritual development because it places limits (based on tradition) on a persons growth.

Organised philosophy in Martial arts does the same in my opinion.

I won't get into the religious argument as whatever a person believes, they believe, more power to them.
What I will get into is the pseudo-religious aspect of MA, the fact that we've been comparing them up to now is symptomatic of the faith element required in many MA's. IMO, there should be no common ground, they should be as seperate as religion and science. After all that's what martial arts should be, science. Intertwining the two only serves to feed the argument and it annoys the hell out of me!

On a different point, but perhaps more on topic:
Even outside of somebody telling you about 'perfect awareness', there is a tendency of some MA instructors to impose their own moral code onto their students. I'm quite a strong willed, opinionated type (you don't say ) so any attempt in this regard by anyone and I've always just laughed it off or whatever. But kids, being the mental sponges that they are, can be extremely susceptable to ínfluence.
Anyone have any experience of this?

Clive

Much of the "mental training" in martial arts is supposed to develop what the Japanese call "mushin" - "no mind". The Koreans have a similar idea of "Ilyo".

Basically shutting off the noggin' and letting the body take over. To react unconsciously rather than thinking about it.

I'm sure anyone who's climbed into a ring or trained their ass off will know what it means.

No amount of meditation, sitting in seiza or pondering koans is going to give you that, IMO.

pma-ire

The Bowing thing is just logical! I can't go around to a big group of people in a session and shake all ther hands can I?

So it's just the way the asians say hello! Big Deal?

No mind can be found in direct combat! But to say that it is not also of worth to find it out of the combat enviorment and learn to use it to calm the body is something I can't agree with!

And not just for the MA world! But for life in general!

Even having this conversation is a waist of time, as it f*ckin' with my Karma man

dent

Clive wrote:

Much of the "mental training" in martial arts is supposed to develop what the Japanese call "mushin" - "no mind". The Koreans have a similar idea of "Ilyo".

Basically shutting off the noggin' and letting the body take over. To react unconsciously rather than thinking about it.

I'm sure anyone who's climbed into a ring or trained their ass off will know what it means.

No amount of meditation, sitting in seiza or pondering koans is going to give you that, IMO.

Yup could not agree more. Strange I think we are all on the same page on this one

Roper

The Bowing thing is just logical! I can't go around to a big group of people in a session and shake all ther hands can I?

So it's just the way the asians say hello! Big Deal?

You could say.... eh, howya all doin'.

Even having this conversation is a waist of time, as it f*ckin' with my Karma man

Get a job hippy!

pma-ire

Roper wrote:

You could say.... eh, howya all doin'.

I do that to! We only have bow at the end really with a clap

Roper wrote:

Get a job hippy!

You twistin' my melon man

Colm_OReilly

Nice Thread,

There is ritual in everything we do, it's human nature

When you say there's "ritual" in everything we do, that's culture. And culture is said to be shared practices, assumptions and believes that have developed due to shared experiences and perceptions of experiences over time. Examples can range from the very solid (shaking hands with the right hand) to the very abstract (I think and experience things through Irish-English)

Adding a ritual, as I understand Colum to have meant it, is performing some task that has no immediate or direct benefit to the practitioner, but done in a sense to overide existing culture and re-educate and individual (I'm getting a little heavy here I understand). So the "rituals" found in most ma's is an attempt to force another culture on top of one's own.

The first question that springs to mind in light of that is "What's the point?" If fighting is universal, and I think we can all agree it is, then we can take the essense of any delivery system/ma, without any of the attached "ritual".

"Talking about" is also very important as you need to understand the "Why".

I agree with this Paul, but it needs to be balanced. Otherwise you can stay stuck in the theoretical part of training, which a lot of ma's IMO are. As a base rule, this should be left to after training, and when the time comes to do it, do it. Or to paraphrase Colum "Stop Frontin' Holmes!"

Organised religion stunts emotional and spiritual development because it places limits (based on tradition) on a persons growth.

Agree with you there my man, as does Maslow. He stated that as organised religion makes certain things/processes sacred, it makes everything else de-sacred. He argued that this took away from the beauty and wonder of much of the natural world, and everything around us.

Bow in the Jujutsu club I'm in at the start and end of every class. Is this a ritual? I understand the reason I'm doing it etc and I don't think there is any harm in it.

Given the above definition, it is a ritual. Why do it? Why not just say "hi" and maybe shake hands?

Karl Tanswell summed up these rituals once when I was over training with him. He said they served as a distraction to why you were there.

Roper,

I suppose I do that with the kids class (and adults too). I try to de-emphasize the need to win every match/game/drill and just enjoy it. In a sense I'm trying to force my opinions on them.

The Bowing thing is just logical! I can't go around to a big group of people in a session and shake all ther hands can I?

Paul, it's not logical. If it is, can you take me through the logical argument behind it? Or do you mean to say "practical".

Instead of bowing to a large group of people, why not just say "Hey, let's get started" or something to that effect?

Peace and Love Y'All,
Colm "Long Post" O'Reilly

dent

Colm_OReilly wrote:

Given the above definition, it is a ritual. Why do it? Why not just say "hi" and maybe shake hands?

Yes that it another option. I think it more of a tradition than a ritual though. Its just paying respect to the originators of the art and I think its a nice touch. So I guess in this context its acceptable to me.

I don't see this as an example of one culture being forced onto another. I guess I would I had to bow to someone instead of shaking hands before sparring.

I do have to emphasise that’s the only tradition we follow and I understand that there are clubs that take it to the extreme and actually force people to comply.

pma-ire

Colm_OReilly wrote:

I agree with this Paul, but it needs to be balanced. Otherwise you can stay stuck in the theoretical part of training, which a lot of ma's IMO are. As a base rule, this should be left to after training, and when the time comes to do it, do it. Or to paraphrase Colum "Stop Frontin' Holmes!"

Taking off the blindfold while training should be the main focus of any Fighting System. Indeed down playing ritual in MA has almost become rituatised in itself

Colm_OReilly wrote:

Maslow... ...stated that as organised religion makes certain things/processes sacred, it makes everything else de-sacred. He argued that this took away from the beauty and wonder of much of the natural world, and everything around us.

I can't see that as being a reflection of eastern religion (the pagan/witch religions in the west being more akin with nature as is most of the eastern ones). BTW, my own personal view of religion is that it an emotional crutch for the human mind!

Colm_OReilly wrote:

Given the above definition, it is a ritual. Why do it? Why not just say "hi" and maybe shake hands?

Colm_OReilly wrote:

Paul, it's not logical. If it is, can you take me through the logical argument behind it? Or do you mean to say "practical".

Instead of bowing to a large group of people, why not just say "Hey, let's get started" or something to that effect?

Partly habbit, partly practical!

But we was talking with Musashai and Rick last week about how funny it was that westerners took on the asian MA along with all the faction fighting between countries and individuals. He don't even like bowing or saying Oos or whatever it is they say?
[/QUOTE]
Peace and Love Y'All,
Colm "Long Post" O'Reilly[/QUOTE]

All this emotion!! No wonder you love to get up close and huggy with your fellow man

columok

Paul,

Indeed down playing ritual in MA has almost become rituatised in itself

It can be. There could potentially be a "whatever you do dont be traditional" mindset. Ive never seen this in a BJJ, Wrestling or Boxing gym however. You go in, you say hello to whoever is there, you train, you leave.

I can't see that as being a reflection of eastern religion

ANY religion with trappings, rituals, special "sacred" ways of doing things and indeed traditions is imposing limits on a person. Eastern, western, northern and southern religions do this. Calling yourself a catholic, muslim, buddhist, daoist whatever is imposing a limit on yourself. Example I was having a conversation with a friend. I explained my religious beliefs. He replied "thats very close to the daoist way of thinking. you must be daoist". I replied "Im not anything. Im just me."

I think it more of a tradition than a ritual though.

Something done for traditions sake with no cultural relevance to the practitioners is a ritual. You werent brought up (AFAIK ) bowing in Ireland so doing it in an MA class is out of context with your standard social practices!

I do have to emphasise that’s the only tradition we follow and I understand that there are clubs that take it to the extreme and actually force people to comply.

If everyone in the class is doing it then surely you arent being "forced" to comply whether directly (You must bow to Sensei) or indirectly (We bow at the end of class.)

Roper

I suppose I do that with the kids class (and adults too). I try to de-emphasize the need to win every match/game/drill and just enjoy it. In a sense I'm trying to force my opinions on them.

No I wouldn't agree. I do similar and when I do I am creating the best possible environment in which they can train. I'm not enforcing some set of life rules. At the end of the day you're the teacher and are entitled to set the tone of your class.
An example of the kind of thing I'm referring to is the emphasis on student 'loyalty' in some schools or organisations.

But we was talking with Musashai and Rick last week about how funny it was that westerners took on the asian MA along with all the faction fighting between countries

I said below that philosophy is best left to philosophers, I should probably extend that to politics too. martial artists make lousy ones.

Tim_Murphy

I don't really see anything wrong with the bowing thing myself, although it is a little unneccessary. It don't see why its a big deal one way or the other. I've been training with a judo club where the bowed at the start and at the end. No biggie, they just got on with training. I think the problem is that with a lot of the traditional arts is that the bowing and the ritual become a part of the actual training itself.

When I was training TKD in Tralee there was always a few flags put up at the top of the hall during training. When we put our pads on and came back on to spar we'd always line up in two lines down the hall, face the top of the hall and bow, and then turn and face our partner and bow again. What was very weird is that when we moved to a new hall where they didn't put the flags up, we still bowed to the top of the hall before sparring. I started to feel pretty stupid doing that

Roper

What was very weird is that when we moved to a new hall where they didn't put the flags up, we still bowed to the top of the hall before sparring. I started to feel pretty stupid doing that

HA!
Used to train in a club, and on one of the nights in the main hall there'd be no flags. A mate of mine came up one night to watch and wondered what the fook we were doing bowing to the bricks on one wall! He thought there was something to it!

pma-ire

Roper wrote:

I said below that philosophy is best left to philosophers, I should probably extend that to politics too. martial artists make lousy ones.

And no one more than the Koreans eh' !

pma-ire

Tim_Murphy wrote:

When I was training TKD in Tralee there was always a few flags put up at the top of the hall during training. When we put our pads on and came back on to spar we'd always line up in two lines down the hall, face the top of the hall and bow, and then turn and face our partner and bow again. What was very weird is that when we moved to a new hall where they didn't put the flags up, we still bowed to the top of the hall before sparring. I started to feel pretty stupid doing that

Now bowing to another countries flag is a culture imposing itself on another!! Flags are nice, if you have someone visting from another country. But bowing to a countries flag that you are not a kin of is madening!! :mad:

memphis

Some interesting points being thrown around here.

Good thread, and of what I read (didn't read it all) its a good read!

I like Colm's idea of Culture above. I think culture can be interpreted as society norms. MA like everything in life is about mental training, for example a kid is thought from an early age what is right and wrong, what is appropraite behaviour. Martial Arts, regardless of the art... (my opinion only) teaches some form of mental training. It teaches respect and coutesy, it teach you right from wrong, it teaches you how to react to certain events, be it an attack from an opponent in a competition, or some muppet on the street. And to go further, and most if not every experienced MAer will say it teaches you self assertiveness... the whole idea of beating your best.

I could go on about this for days as I have strong believes that training in MA is not just about paying a bloke to show you do some fancy kicks and sh!t so you can ward off some guys giving you funny looks in a pub/club or whatever. There is an understanding and dedication involved... and that is the key to learning (even in life in general). And that my friends takes mental training!

pma-ire

memphis wrote:

Some interesting points being thrown around here.

Good thread, and of what I read (didn't read it all) its a good read!

I like Colm's idea of Culture above. I think culture can be interpreted as society norms. MA like everything in life is about mental training, for example a kid is thought from an early age what is right and wrong, what is appropraite behaviour. Martial Arts, regardless of the art... (my opinion only) teaches some form of mental training. It teaches respect and coutesy, it teach you right from wrong, it teaches you how to react to certain events, be it an attack from an opponent in a competition, or some muppet on the street. And to go further, and most if not every experienced MAer will say it teaches you self assertiveness... the whole idea of beating your best.

I could go on about this for days as I have strong believes that training in MA is not just about paying a bloke to show you do some fancy kicks and sh!t so you can ward off some guys giving you funny looks in a pub/club or whatever. There is an understanding and dedication involved... and that is the key to learning (even in life in general). And that my friends takes mental training!

Good Points!

columok

memphis wrote:

Martial Arts, regardless of the art... (my opinion only) teaches some form of mental training.

Any activity where you must better yourself be it chess or boxing or rock climbing cultivate being a more rounded individual. I think many martial arts steeped in ritual impinge on the learning.

memphis wrote:

It teaches respect and coutesy, it teach you right from wrong, it teaches you how to react to certain events, be it an attack from an opponent in a competition, or some muppet on the street.

I think many MAs teach horrible violent ego and instill violence and nastiness in their students. The students become fixated with proving themselves and doing horrible things to random thugs. Many martial arts teach wrong. However it is not the place of MAs to teach morality. Morality is dictated by society starting with the formative family years.

memphis wrote:

And to go further, and most if not every experienced MAer will say it teaches you self assertiveness... the whole idea of beating your best..

Competition, regardless of the format, is the most effective way of bettering yourself in this way.

There is an understanding and dedication involved... and that is the key to learning (even in life in general). And that my friends takes mental training!

This is again true of anything. Martial Arts are not unique in this sense.

memphis

columok wrote:

Any activity where you must better yourself be it chess or boxing or rock climbing cultivate being a more rounded individual. I think many martial arts steeped in ritual impinge on the learning.

Absolutely, which is why I say twice in my post "as like in anything in life" or words to that effect! But I don't believe it impinges the learning, more like ENCOURAGES the learning.

I think many MAs teach horrible violent ego and instill violence and nastiness in their students. The students become fixated with proving themselves and doing horrible things to random thugs. Many martial arts teach wrong. However it is not the place of MAs to teach morality. Morality is dictated by society starting with the formative family years.

That I can't deny, but I think you'll agree that any MA that teaches such wrongs seldom survive! An instructor can well afford to lose a student such as the above.

Competition, regardless of the format, is the most effective way of bettering yourself in this way.

Yes and No, simply because it is the training in MA for these competitions, etc, that boost ones confidence and assertiveness!

This is again true of anything. Martial Arts are not unique in this sense.

Yes it is true of anything, and I like to think that MA, while it may not be unique, aids this mental learning.

dent

columok wrote:

Something done for traditions sake with no cultural relevance to the practitioners is a ritual.

OK fair enough not that this really matters. But what about the ritual of Mass. I say that has a lot of cultural relevance here in Ireland.

columok wrote:

You werent brought up (AFAIK ) bowing in Ireland so doing it in an MA class is out of context with your standard social practices!

How do you know I also think doing any MA is outside of standard social practices. Like I said though its at the start and end of the class and is just a sign of respect for the orignator of the art and as a mark of that we use his sign of respect, a bow.

I think your example would be more relavent if I was bowing before sparring instead of shaking hands or touching gloves.

columok wrote:

If everyone in the class is doing it then surely you arent being "forced" to comply whether directly (You must bow to Sensei) or indirectly (We bow at the end of class.)

Its a good point but I have never seen anyone being singled out for not bowing. To be honest though I don't think anyone minds given the context.

tomsie100

First off i agree with what everone says so far.
But i have a few points.
I know of self defense such as geoff thompson website they talk
alot about fear and the body and mind reaction to extreeme street violance, this is different to the combat sports i have done i never felt really afraid of my life.
He developed a good science on this its interesting reading.

In the use of our martial arts, he develop our skills to protect ourself and others not to harm and that is a good reason to develop skill and put time into martial arts. Its not all the time about Me Me Me what i get out of it you are serving others.

These are Martial skills if you were trained in say sword fighting years ago. You would have to kill people and risk the threat of being killed. I heard that the samari in japan meditated untill they were deteached from death and so had no fear of it.

I agree with what everone else has said, but there more to this subject.

tomsie100

id just like to mention that with ritual it doesnt matter what you do its the mind you do it with. If you bow to a person out of respect for them as a equal being with a soul with limtless compassion and love. It means something bow ing for no reason with out any intention is just a waste of time anything with a mind of faith can be a spirtual ritual.

pma-ire

tomsie100 wrote:

id just like to mention that with ritual it doesnt matter what you do its the mind you do it with. If you bow to a person out of respect for them as a equal being with a soul with limtless compassion and love. It means something bow ing for no reason with out any intention is just a waste of time anything with a mind of faith can be a spirtual ritual.

Interesting point! Thanks

Roper

anything with a mind of faith can be a spirtual ritual.

But faith in what? Martial Arts shouldn't require faith.

Science doesn't require faith, and Martial Arts should be a scientific process, not a religious one. If you believe in say, a God, the more you believe in him, the more that God 'works' for you in whatever way. That's the message of religion.
The more you believe in MA, eh, well, nothing happens. You have to train, train, and train again for any effectiveness. All the faith in the world can't help you then.
I can attach spiritual importance to having the cup of coffee beside me at the moment, but that doesn't make it more effective at waking me up, or any tastier. The difference is in my perception, and how I percieve my martial arts skills is of no importance to the guy fighting me.

I accept that your original point was more to do with a Self Defence mindset and the mental approach of that (another discussion entirely) but I felt I had to comment on that one point you've made.

columok

Memphis,

Absolutely, which is why I say twice in my post "as like in anything in life" or words to that effect! But I don't believe it impinges the learning, more like ENCOURAGES the learning.

How can ritual incourage learning?

That I can't deny, but I think you'll agree that any MA that teaches such wrongs seldom survive!

I fundamentally disagree there. A lot of modern martial arts schools talk about gouging eyes or shredding testicles like its some kind of game or some kind of fun empowering hobby. Its brutality.


Dent,

I also think doing any MA is outside of standard social practices.

I dont agree. Combat sports and competitive sports as a whole are an intrinsic part of western society be it the Olympics, gladitorial combat, boxing, football etc. etc.

columok

Tomsie,

this is different to the combat sports i have done i never felt really afraid of my life.

What combat sports have you done? What level have you competed at. Admittedly training can be relaxed and MAY be unintimidating but fear and concordantly adrenaline kick in the minute you step onto competitive mats, ring, cage etc.

In the use of our martial arts, he develop our skills to protect ourself and others not to harm and that is a good reason to develop skill and put time into martial arts. Its not all the time about Me Me Me what i get out of it you are serving others.

How are you learning to serve others by doing a MA? You could have a greater societal good in running a soup kitchen or learning first aid!



I agree with Roper in saying that faith has no place in martial arts. Self defence/martial arts/combat sports are a science and should not have religious practices associated with them.

Roper

People get wrapped in the idea that by doing the martial arts, they are becoming a better person. Yes, it is possible to improve yourself mentally, by relieving stress, by becoming more confident, by relaxing, and by finding it in yourself to train hard.
Make no mistake though, this is available in any sport. Where martial arts differs is in the faux spirituality that some people bring to it. There is spirituality in training MA if you look for it. Does it make you a better person? More willing and capable to of helping others? That would depend on the person. There is spirituality in sprinting. The thought of being faster than you've ever been, of crossing the finish line, of looking back exhausted at where you've come from. If you look hard enough, there's something everywhere for the person who wants to attach meaning to things.

Personally, I think it's all bullsh1t.

pma-ire

columok wrote:

How are you learning to serve others by doing a MA? You could have a greater societal good in running a soup kitchen or learning first aid!

How about MA'ist that have helped developed anti-rape, anti-abduction, anti-abuse and anti-bullying programs?

Martial Art Schools in some areas take kids in and give them a purpose in there life, where they could instead turn to drugs, drink or crime? (I agree that sports can do that also!) Also the training can change a young person from a shy "victim" into a confident protector of there persona. I have seen this happen with a youg lad that was brought to my old instructors club my his father because he was always being picked on, and he had a serious neg ego. I met him a few weeks ago at the old club and he's a different young man!!

Roper

How about MA'ist that have helped developed anti-rape, anti-abduction, anti-abuse and anti-bullying programs?

Profit! And is there any proof they work? I know of one anti-bullying programme which is pure Bullsh1t and is likely to get the kid more picked on.

Martial Art Schools in some areas take kids in and give them a purpose in there life, where they could instead turn to drugs, drink or crime? (I agree that sports can do that also!)

Then it's not relevant here. In Ballymun they have horses and stables, but nobody tries to say that tries to make them 'a better person'. It's an activity which keeps them off the streets and gives them something to focus on/train for.

Also the training can change a young person from a shy "victim" into a confident protector of there persona.

And in some cases, turn them from that confident protector to an aggressive paranoid individual.

Time for a story (sorry!), anecdotal evidence proves nothing and everything of course, but I thought this might be relevant here.
A guy I used to train with told me a story of how he used to be bullied in school. Awful stuff really, made his early teens a nightmare. Point is, to try to stop it he joined an MA, kung fu I think though I can't really remember. It didn't stop, only when he eventually left school. He told me, 'and the MA made me more confident, I felt better about myself'. Years later when he was about 30, he met one of the bullies in a bar and went for him without provocation and ended up on an assault charge.

I don't think it really made him feel better about himself. Might have been better off in a sports based MA methinks.

pma-ire

columok wrote:

Memphis,

How can ritual incourage learning?

Did you not go to school? The ritual that a teacher has towards the taking of a class forms a habit of learning in the student! If a teacher is not thinking about helping the student learn to make themselves better then they should not be teaching!

columok wrote:

I fundamentally disagree there. A lot of modern martial arts schools talk about gouging eyes or shredding testicles like its some kind of game or some kind of fun empowering hobby. Its brutality.

No! Thats reality! Sorry if it's upsetting you? Most of us folk who don't have the time to train more than 2 times a week due to families, would like to still be able to defend themselves in a real fight? That means that we might not have the muscle development to pick up or throw people to the ground, or the cardio and speed of a focused comp fighter. So we mortals need some levellers and eye gouging and shredding testicles is just one way of doing that.

I can hear you already "we don't train it cause it's no fun" and "thats not healthy". Thats because you know that if you get caught with a bang to the balls your fight is over! If you get a mucky finger in the eyes you won't be able to see right for a day or two and might miss things in work or college?

I totally agree with you about the fact that hav'ing "game" (sound delivery) is the most important thing. But you have to think about MA for everyone, not just for the few.

columok wrote:

Dent,

I dont agree. Combat sports and competitive sports as a whole are an intrinsic part of western society be it the Olympics, gladitorial combat, boxing, football etc. etc.

I agree with you there :eek:

pma-ire

Roper wrote:

Profit! And is there any proof they work? I know of one anti-bullying programme which is pure Bullsh1t and is likely to get the kid more picked on.


Then it's not relevant here. In Ballymun they have horses and stables, but nobody tries to say that tries to make them 'a better person'. It's an activity which keeps them off the streets and gives them something to focus on/train for.

And in some cases, turn them from that confident protector to an aggressive paranoid individual.

Time for a story (sorry!), anecdotal evidence proves nothing and everything of course, but I thought this might be relevant here.
A guy I used to train with told me a story of how he used to be bullied in school. Awful stuff really, made his early teens a nightmare. Point is, to try to stop it he joined an MA, kung fu I think though I can't really remember. It didn't stop, only when he eventually left school. He told me, 'and the MA made me more confident, I felt better about myself'. Years later when he was about 30, he met one of the bullies in a bar and went for him without provocation and ended up on an assault charge.

I don't think it really made him feel better about himself. Might have been better off in a sports based MA methinks.

Where there is Yin there will always be Yang!

I'm sure all your experiences are just as real as the ones I have. But "stories" are important if a person is to give an insight as to why they are thinking in a certain way. Two people will not even remember an event in the same way!

dent

columok wrote:

Dent,
I dont agree. Combat sports and competitive sports as a whole are an intrinsic part of western society be it the Olympics, gladitorial combat, boxing, football etc. etc.

True, Maybe I misunderstood your point. I was referring to the fact that its not standard social practice to punch, kick or armbar your fellows

On the point of MA making you a better person. I'd say take a look around at the people you train with. I can certainly say its not made any of them worse ( In my experience). In fact I have seen people who where very aggressive become more relaxed. It definantly did that for me. But that also may have being part of growing up

Other activitys also this to. If something can take kids of the street and turn there attention from joy riding or taking drugs then I think it makes them a better person or certainly more socially acceptable.

Does anyone here train with anyone that has become paranoid and aggresive as a result of doing MA?

dent

Roper wrote:

It's an activity which keeps them off the streets and gives them something to focus on/train for.

Yes and it teaches them responsibility amongst a range of other positive things. I think the activity does make them better people

Roper

Other activitys also this to. If something can take kids of the street and turn there attention from joy riding or taking drugs then I think it makes them a better person or certainly more socially acceptable.

I would agree, but my whole point was that this is available through most activities.

Does anyone here train with anyone that has become paranoid and aggresive as a result of doing MA?

I couldn't comment on what they were like before, but yes, I know of a couple. In ones case MA just brought out aggression where previously there was shyness.

Roper

Did you not go to school? The ritual that a teacher has towards the taking of a class forms a habit of learning in the student! If a teacher is not thinking about helping the student learn to make themselves better then they should not be teaching!

You're confusing ritual with format. Very different things.

No! Thats reality! Sorry if it's upsetting you? Most of us folk who don't have the time to train more than 2 times a week due to families, would like to still be able to defend themselves in a real fight? That means that we might not have the muscle development to pick up or throw people to the ground, or the cardio and speed of a focused comp fighter. So we mortals need some levellers and eye gouging and shredding testicles is just one way of doing that.

I train a WHOLE lot less than I used to. My own training (not teaching) takes up about 2 hours a week and these days I focus on technique and sparring and allow the inherent cardio to look after me. By sparring, rolling or whatever, I'm constantly reassessing my positioning, balance and all the things sparring give me. Thats what's going to save me in a fight, positioning myself to strike, be it a stiff jab to the nose or a stiff finger to the eyes, it's all good. But my position is the same. Most throwing is technique by the by.

here comes my famous analogy:
Training for the street or real fight is like shuttering your windows. You're safe inside but you're in the dark.
There is so much more fun, enjoyment and good vibes to be had, coming from someone who's been on both sides of the fence.

memphis

The whole point I was tryin to make above (may not have been very clear) was that while there are many ways in life to increae mental learning/training, MA aids this and encourages you to use your mind, know right from wrong, or act with integrity.

MA teaches one to perseverve, to tackle the odds, to beat your best, to be assertiveness.

Hope that makes a little more sense.

Zanshin

Tim_Murphy wrote:

I don't really see anything wrong with the bowing thing myself, although it is a little unneccessary. It don't see why its a big deal one way or the other. I've been training with a judo club where the bowed at the start and at the end. No biggie, they just got on with training. I think the problem is that with a lot of the traditional arts is that the bowing and the ritual become a part of the actual training itself.

When I was training TKD in Tralee there was always a few flags put up at the top of the hall during training. When we put our pads on and came back on to spar we'd always line up in two lines down the hall, face the top of the hall and bow, and then turn and face our partner and bow again. What was very weird is that when we moved to a new hall where they didn't put the flags up, we still bowed to the top of the hall before sparring. I started to feel pretty stupid doing that

The bowing to me signifies respect. Martial Arts in general can be very dangerous if the element of respect is ignored.

Zanshin

dent wrote:

Bow in the Jujutsu club I'm in at the start and end of every class. Is this a ritual? I understand the reason I'm doing it etc and I don't think there is any harm in it.

The only type taught "spiritual development" I have come across in Jujutsu is when we where doing some sword kata's ( The only form of katas we do). One of the instructors said "Before you draw you must reach a level of perfect awareness", I nearly choked trying to keep in either laughter or horror. It was the first time I came across blatant BS in Jujutsu.

The other instructor wasn't there that night and I know he would have choked if he had heard it. Thankfully that kind of BS has not being repeated again.

I guess I ( shock horror) agree with Columok on this one.

I believe the phrase quoted by your instructor "Before you draw you must reach a level of perfect awareness" is far from being BS. To dismiss it as being BS without understanding it is a sign of narrow mindedness.

It is a very significant comment. If you are not in a state of total awareness in battle you will most likely be killed. This applies to defending yourself in general.

It also applies to all areas of life, living in the moment as it's known. To live in the 'now' and not in the yesterday or tomorrow prevents the dispersion of your available energy to anything but the present moment. This inevitably results in a job done better, no matter what that job is. It also results in higher energy levels - you will be less tired.

Tim_Murphy

The bowing to me signifies respect. Martial Arts in general can be very dangerous if the element of respect is ignored.

I get the bowing signifies respect thing, but touching gloves at the start of sparring does the same thing. I don't think bowing to a wall at the top of the hall signifies anything (even though I did have a lot of respect for that wall ), it's just blind, pointless ritual.

memphis

Slightly off topic but maybe I'm going mental but when did Amz become Mod of MA? Or is he just Mod of all of the sports forums?

Does this mean I'll never become Mod of this forum

*** Goes off and sulks in corner!!!***

Zanshin

Roper wrote:

No, let's start one. Thats what boards are for!


In short, asking questions- good. Contriving answers for yourself rather than accepting truth- bad. Basing answers on unrealistic evidence of effectiveness- unscientific.

I think that developing answers for yourself is an integral part of self-realisation. To merely accept thruth as contrived by another human being is in my opinion unrealistic. Truth varies accordng to the individual.

Self-realisation in my opinion is an integral part of a more complete Martial Arts training.