Irish Catholic bishops offer their wisdom again

Yoda

From the Irish Times

Bishops offer to consider laws for couples
Joe Humphreys

Ireland's Catholic bishops have said they are willing to consider legislative proposals allowing for State recognition for cohabiting couples.

Representatives of the bishops told an Oireachtas committee yesterday that while they would consider such proposals, they should be framed in a way that did not "dilute" the institution of marriage.

Fr Tim Bartlett, speaking on behalf of the bishops' committee on the family, said the needs of cohabiting couples and same-sex unions could be addressed "more effectively" in legislation rather than in a change to the Constitution.

Such legislation would have the flexibility and breadth to adjust to the different forms of relationship, and be more comprehensive. But, he said, church bodies would be unable to give their support to any set of legislative proposals without first having had time to study them.

Asked about a legislative proposal by Senator David Norris (Ind) for gay couples to be allowed to engage in a civil partnership short of marriage, Fr Bartlett replied that they would want to give it "more consideration".

However, "one of the issues that would arise is how could those issues be addressed in other ways".

In their written submission, the bishops alluded to "the legal changes that have already taken place and the fact that two people can make private legal provision covering many aspects of their lives together, including joint ownership of homes, living wills and powers of attorney".

They also said a scheme of State recognition for cohabiting couples "might be judged to be an incentive not to marry". The bishops have expressed strong opposition to any amendment to the Constitution to provide for same-sex marriages, noting the church taught that marriage "is exclusively between a man and a woman".

The Constition does not forbid same-sexc marriages, whatever the church may teach.

rsynnott

Hmm, this IS strange; there's no constitutional prohibition to same-sex marraige. Wonder what planet the bishops are living on.

Yoda

Kindly indicate the text in Bunreacht na hÉireann which DOES specifically prohibit same-sex marriage. You will find none.

damien

Where does it allow it in that text ?

moridin

There's no consitiutional prohibitation, however there is legislation which specifically states that two people of the same gender can't get married.


EDIT See thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=201387

rsynnott

damien.m wrote:

Where does it allow it in that text ?

It doesn't HAVE to allow it, it just has to not prohibit it. And it doesn't.

damien

rsynnott wrote:

It doesn't HAVE to allow it, it just has to not prohibit it. And it doesn't.

It doesn't prohibit me from marrying my fridge does it ? Does that mean I can marry my fridge ?

Disclaimer: I do not have a fridge fetish.

Sleepy

And what do the Bishops have to do with legislation? Do they think we're still living in the forties where they are supposed to be consulted about the running of this country?

Hmm_Messiah

It;s all a matter of language, and I think this concept of Natural Law and precedent.

The term Marriage is not define in the constitution and so there is no prohibition on Same sex marriages within the constitution.

If the State?Judiciary were to accept same sex unions as "marriage" then the Constitution recognises same.

Further Article 40. 1 says "all citizens shall, as human persons, shall be held equal before the law"

However the It contines that the government is allowed have regard for differences of capacity, physcial and moral, and of social function.

ixoy

damien.m wrote:

It doesn't prohibit me from marrying my fridge does it ? Does that mean I can marry my fridge ?[/SIZE]

Maybe not but the Church wouldn't let ya and the new Civil Registration Bill would say your fridge would have to of sound mind and understand the ceremony (although I can't find the clause that says the two must be of a different gender).

ixoy

Right, the Constitution may not forbid it but the Law seems to. From what I understand, the Civil Registration Bill 2003 is the defining source for marriage ceremonies.

From Part 1 - Subsection 2 - (2):

For the purposes of this Act there is an impediment to a marriage
if—
(a) the marriage would be void by virtue of the Marriage Act
1835 as amended by the Marriage (Prohibited Degrees of 40
Relationship) Acts 1907 and 1921,
(b) one of the parties to the marriage is, or both are, already
married,
9
Regulations.
10
(c) one or both, of the parties to the intended marriage will be
under the age of 18 years on the date of solemnisation of
the intended marriage and an exemption from the application
of section 31(1)(a) of the Family Law Act 1995 in
relation to the marriage was not granted under section 33 5
of that Act,
(d) the marriage would be void by virtue of the Marriage of
Lunatics Act 1811, or
(e) both parties are of the same sex.

So, whilst on a Constitutional level there's nothing to prohibit it, the legislation seems to say otherwise.

rsynnott

ixoy wrote:

Maybe not but the Church wouldn't let ya and the new Civil Registration Bill would say your fridge would have to of sound mind and understand the ceremony (although I can't find the clause that says the two must be of a different gender).

Whether or not the church will let you is largely irrelevant; marraige in this context is a civil institution and nothing to do with the church. If various religions choose to perform gay marraige that's their own business; if they don't, they shouldn't be compelled to.

There's no law specifically forbidding same-sex marraige, but there's also no law or legal framework ALLOWING it.

That's the only change that really needs to be made, but it won't be an easy one to make, what with interference from the church and insane people who feel that gay marriage would "devalue" marriage.

ixoy

rsynnott wrote:

There's no law specifically forbidding same-sex marraige, but there's also no law or legal framework ALLOWING it.

Well the piece of legislation I quoted above seems to say you can't although I'm no lawyer.

dahamsta

damien.m wrote:

Disclaimer: I do not have a fridge fetish.

Liar.

moridin

Well the piece of legislation I quoted above seems to say you can't although I'm no lawyer.

Despite not being a lawyer, you are correct... and you saved me having to look up the exact section of the bill in question.

Well done Ixo

moridin

dahamsta wrote:

Liar.

I hear he likes washine machines a lot more. Something about them being a bit more of a bumpy ride. :eek: