Todays Prem League Games (will include scores)

Third_Echelon

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

Awwww, must be awful to have no european glory because some English fans rioted twenty years ago and did not give ye the chance to be embarassed in European competition. Ye've had nothing, ye'll get nothing.

Ipswich, first division side, Uefa cup, surely they did not deserve that .....

Now big brother has spoken. (<--- Does this mean that it is supposed to have been a joke ?)

We have european glory. Cup Winners Cup in 1985. The start of the revolution.... but then.. well you know your history.

Ipswich got into the uefa cup through the fair play draw. Entirely different.

There's only one big brother. Charletons not accepted.

mike65

Draging Heysel into this is dubious to say the least.

If Liverpool win it they should have the chance to defend it. One solution which Everton would'nt like but proberly could live with, if UEFA could live with it, is to have a two-legged "pre-pre" qualifiing round between the two clubs. The winner plays Obscure Eastern European Team FC in the next round.

Mike.

Guy:Incognito

Third_Echelon wrote:

If the powers that be at Liverpool if this situation did arise should have some sense of morality and concede their claim to the CL spot,

No chance. You do realise thats it's nothing to do with football. No company, which is all football clubs are nowadays will just say "aah , go on Everton, you have the millions of pounds, we dont really want it" nevber going to happen.


Anyway, on todays game. Rafa has to realise how to play against the lower teams. Theyare going to kick **** out of you. The way to combat that is NOT to play poncy foreigners and kids. Gerrard is the man that should have been able to put it up to palace today and kick back. These games are not so much about the football as the battle, and the team liverpool had out today wasnt a battleing team. Biscan should have been in. Considering that Welsh and Potter will not be featuring majorly in the last few games, they should have been told, when it was obvious what way the game was going, to get physical and take a yelllow, thats what was required.

Third_Echelon wrote:

Some might say that things might be very different for Everton today if they had played in the European cup those 2 years????

Same could be said for Liverpool so. Plus if Hillsborough had'nt happened Dalglish might never have resigned and Liverpool may have carried on running the show.

Third_Echelon

mike65 wrote:

Draging Heysel into this is dubious to say the least.

Its relevant history, which i think everyone is 'over' at this stage. It was a long time ago, but it did have an effect on everton as well.

mike65 wrote:

If Liverpool win it they should have the chance to defend it. One solution which Everton would'nt like but proberly could live with, if UEFA could live with it, is to have a two-legged "pre-pre" qualifiing round between the two clubs. The winner plays Obscure Eastern European Team FC in the next round.

Why bother finishing 4th then? So we can play another 2 games so we can qualify for something that technically we were entitled to anyway???

With the World cup and Euro champs now the champions have to qualify for the next tournament. If they don't, tough luck. Why should it be any different for the champions league?

Why should a team who has done all that is required of them to qualify and give up their place for some team that has not met the criteria for qualifying for the next tournament?

I dont think that this scenario (pool winnning CL) will come to pass, so there shouldn't be too much to worry about

redspider

In terms of whether winners of the CL should qualify for next years CL, I think they definitely should. Thats the way it always was, for example with Liverpool and Nottm F both in the top european club competition, Liverpool being there by virtue of winning the domestic league and Forest there due to their european cup triumph.

I dont recall the details of what happened after the 1999 Man U win of the CL, whether england got an extra place or not. Perhaps it coincided nicely with the expansion of the competition as places for English teams were gradually increased from one to 2, then 3 and in recent years 4.

In terms of this years CL, I think Uefa could grant an extra place if it seems unfair. After all there is over 100 teams in the CL so one more wont make a bit of difference. I dont think that Liverpool will win the CL though, and I guess Uefa are thinking that too as are the FA.

BTW, I would also go further and propose that the runner-up of the CL also should qualify for the CL, perhaps the preliminary round. That is at least some sort of footballing compensation for getting close yet so far.

Redspider

Chucky the tree

Third_Echelon wrote:

I'm well aware of how the allocation works. The FA have set a precident by awarding the 4th champions league spot to the team that finishes 4th in the league. Why should it be any different?

Just imagine this scenario for a second:

-> Liverpool win champions league
-> Liverpool are relegated to division 1

that isnt the scenario, so its completely pointless in saying it.

Third_Echelon wrote:

Who deserves to progress to the champions league next year from the premiership?

The clearly better team who finished 4th or the Division 1 side who were relegated?

Just playing devils advocate here, but you can see where I'm coming from.

By finishing 4th last year Everton would have qualified for the CL. Why not this year (if liverpool win CL)?

Milwall were given a UEFA cup spot spot last year, they were in division one, and they didnt even win the FA cup.

Third_Echelon wrote:

If the powers that be at Liverpool if this situation did arise should have some sense of morality and concede their claim to the CL spot, as after all it was their fault that Everton could not play in the European cup on two occasions during the 80's with probably the best team in europe at the time.
Some might say that things might be very different for Everton today if they had played in the European cup those 2 years????

Lineker stays? Win European Cup? A very differnet 90's for Everton.....

Liverpool; Pay your dues if the situation arises.

That will be all.... Big Brother has spoken

How was it liverpools fault? Did gerrard, carra, rafa, moores, parry all riot during heysel?! I think not, so it really isnt their fault.

Third_Echelon wrote:

Why should a team who has done all that is required of them to qualify and give up their place for some team that has not met the criteria for qualifying for the next tournament?

How have they done all that is required? there is nothing in the FA rule book that says 4th place will get a CL spot, so they havent met the criteria since there really isnt any.

Third_Echelon

Chucky the tree wrote:

that isnt the scenario, so its completely pointless in saying it.

Not really. Finishing 20th is the same as 5th. Still dont qualify for the CL.

Chucky the tree wrote:

Milwall were given a UEFA cup spot spot last year, they were in division one, and they didnt even win the FA cup.

That was through cup competition. Not awarded on league position

Chucky the tree wrote:

How was it liverpools fault? Did gerrard, carra, rafa, moores, parry all riot during heysel?! I think not, so it really isnt their fault.

Didnt mention any players. Club was responsible though

Chucky the tree wrote:

How have they done all that is required? there is nothing in the FA rule book that says 4th place will get a CL spot, so they havent met the criteria since there really isnt any.

Going on previous seasons and it was known that this season finishing 4th was a spot for the CL.

Chucky the tree

Third_Echelon wrote:

Going on previous seasons and it was known that this season finishing 4th was a spot for the CL.

it wasnt known, they just presumed. A english team hasnt won the CL in a previous season though.

Third_Echelon

Chucky the tree wrote:

it wasnt known, they just presumed. A english team hasnt won the CL in a previous season though.

Man Utd 1999?

Chucky the tree

Third_Echelon wrote:

Man Utd 1999?

sorry, i meant a team that has finished outside the top 4 hasnt one the CL before.

Third_Echelon

id doubt if it has ever happened in any of the european leagues since the expansion of the champions league....

usually good teams win the CL

Guy:Incognito

Third_Echelon wrote:

. Club was responsible though.

How exaclty are a club responsible for their fans. before you say it I know they are punished if their fans step out of line.

But the fact of it is, a club has no power over who decides to buy their shirts and turn up for their games.

Guy:Incognito

Third_Echelon wrote:

usually good teams win the CL

Aah the last resort of a fan whos team are knocked out or didnt qualify. For the record I don't think Utd were the best team in 99. I reckon they were extremely lucky to win it, so whats the difference with Liverpool. End of the day if they wion it, it's theirs. They might not have been the best team in it but they beat everyone they needed to. If they do end up winning it by beating Jve, Chelsea nd then Milan, I don't think anyone can begrudge them the win.

Third_Echelon

Stekelly wrote:

How exaclty are a club responsible for their fans. before you say it I know they are punished if their fans step out of line.

Of course they are responsible. Usually in the modern game for away trips such as european away ties tickets are distributed to the official fan club members etc, so they know who is and isn't getting tickets. These plans aren't 100% fullproof but its the best they can do...

Certain 'fans' are banned from grounds in england etc. It can be done, but is harder to patrol away from home.

Stekelly wrote:

But the fact of it is, a club has no power over who decides to buy their shirts and turn up for their games.

True on the shirts thing. They can control who comes to the home games. As I said harder for the away games.

Third_Echelon

Stekelly wrote:

Aah the last resort of a fan whos team are knocked out or didnt qualify. For the record I don't think Utd were the best team in 99. I reckon they were extremely lucky to win it, so whats the difference with Liverpool. End of the day if they wion it, it's theirs. They might not have been the best team in it but they beat everyone they needed to. If they do end up winning it by beating Jve, Chelsea nd then Milan, I don't think anyone can begrudge them the win.

Fair enough if they beat chelsea and milan. But leverkusen and juve were bum teams. Both were cr@p to be honest, but all you can do is beat what's put in front of you i suppose....

Anyway i think this thread is enough off topic. I guess we can reopen it or start a new one with a game or two to go and after the european ties to see if the scenario has changed or looks likely...

Guy:Incognito

Third_Echelon wrote:

Certain 'fans' are banned from grounds in england etc. It can be done, but is harder to patrol away from home..

Most trouble is usually caused by away fans, as , strangly enough, even hooligans seem to have a certain respect for their own clubs facilities. All an away club can do is advise the home club and police, they have no power wit respect to the stadium and who gets in. Finals have a certain percentage of neutral tickets that are freely available.

hooligans have no problems getting tickets for games from various sources which don't include club, therefore the club have no control.

Guy:Incognito

Third_Echelon wrote:

Fair enough if they beat chelsea and milan. But leverkusen and juve were bum teams. Both were cr@p to be honest, but all you can do is beat what's put in front of you i suppose....QUOTE]



What makes Juve any better/worse than the team they are level with at this stage of seria A? (thats Milan btw)

Third_Echelon

it'll be interesting to see if the ticketing system for the 2006 world cup will work... only the person whose name on the ticket can get in. This could stamp out a lot of touts and the wrong type of people getting the tickets...

Third_Echelon

Stekelly wrote:

What makes Juve any better/worse than the team they are level with at this stage of seria A? (thats Milan btw)

I take it you actually saw the two legs of the liverpool vs juve tie?

That makes them worse at the time. Thats all the can be judged on. They were shocking to be honest.

Guy:Incognito

Third_Echelon wrote:

it'll be interesting to see if the ticketing system for the 2006 world cup will work... only the person whose name on the ticket can get in. This could stamp out a lot of touts and the wrong type of people getting the tickets...

Did they not try that at other tournaments? I'm nearly sure they did so it obviously didnt work. Unless they have something new up their sleeves. I gues we'll have to wait and see.

Third_Echelon

Stekelly wrote:

Did they not try that at other tournaments? I'm nearly sure they did so it obviously didnt work. Unless they have something new up their sleeves. I gues we'll have to wait and see.

Some sort of microchip/smartcard technology. Just read a short article about it... they say it'll be effective..

Guy:Incognito

Third_Echelon wrote:

I take it you actually saw the two legs of the liverpool vs juve tie?

That makes them worse at the time. Thats all the can be judged on. They were shocking to be honest.

So depending on how well Milan play in the final, decides how much Liverpool deserve to win and how it rates as a win? winning the champions league is winning it. I honestly couldnt care less who they play and how well the teams play against Liverpool, as long as they win. Everyone is saying how great Milan are, so if Liverpool beat them, it's irrleevant how well or bad Milan play, they are still a great team and Liverpool have beaten a great team.

Everyone can't be reduced to the level of a "bum team" just because Liverpool beat them.

Guy:Incognito

Third_Echelon wrote:

Some sort of microchip/smartcard technology. Just read a short article about it... they say it'll be effective..

It's going to have to be good, touts have managed to survive every other measure over the years. No matter what technology seems to be employed, criminals always seem to find a way to circumvent it.

Third_Echelon

Stekelly wrote:

So depending on how well Milan play in the final, decides how much Liverpool deserve to win and how it rates as a win? winning the champions league is winning it. I honestly couldnt care less who they play and how well the teams play against Liverpool, as long as they win. Everyone is saying how great Milan are, so if Liverpool beat them, it's irrleevant how well or bad Milan play, they are still a great team and Liverpool have beaten a great team.

Everyone can't be reduced to the level of a "bum team" just because Liverpool beat them.

Teams can be lucky and get other teams on bad days. This seems to have happened to liverpool twice so far in the previous 2 rounds. As i said, you can only play what is presented in front of you, and if you beat them you beat them.

I'm not saying they were reduced to a bum team just because liverpool beat them. They were just a bad team in that particular tie, no matter who they would have played...

PHB

I think Juve played fantastic in their second match and just couldn't get a break. Liverpool were fantastic though.

The microchip technology is really cool.
One of the ideas was to get everyone with football fans ID cards, issue it based on social security numbers, and then sell the tickets to the ID cards. It means that you can only ever get one card, although obviously you can get em replaced if you loose them. It means you can just swipe your card to get into matches, it removes a ****load of stewarding jobs, so it's kinda cost efficient too. Also it allows for easy banning

uberwolf

Third_Echelon wrote:

id doubt if it has ever happened in any of the european leagues since the expansion of the champions league....

usually good teams win the CL

you doubt wrong. The precedent has been set. In 2000-2001 Madrid were holders but missed out on automatic qualification. The number of league qualifiers was reduced by 1 to facilitate the holders. Some recognition that winning the competition has an impact on league performance - and so it shouldn't prevent winners defending their trophy.

I don't expect Liverpool to win the CL, but if they do they will be allowed to defend it.


http://www.nozdrul.plus.com/zfeweb/ecuparch/ucl/ucl200001tms.html

the relevant part.

UEFA Champions League Entrants 2000-01

The 2000-01 UEFA Champions League retains the format introduced for the 1999-2000 season.

UEFA regulations stipulate that no country may have more than 4 entrants in the UEFA Champions League. Since the 1999-2000 winners, Real Madrid, had not already qualified for the 2000-01 competition via the Spanish League, only three Spanish teams qualify via league placings and consequently Real Zaragoza who would normally have been eligible for the UEFA Champions League will play in the UEFA Cup instead. This leaves one place unfilled in the 3rd Qualifying Round, this will be filled by the Swiss Champions FC Sankt Gallen who will enter the competition at that stage instead of the 2nd Qualifying Round. To complete the competition format, the Champions of Israel and Slovakia (Hapoel Tel-Aviv and NK Maribor) will enter directly into the 2nd Qualifying Round.


further if Liverpool were to win the CL they would have beaten the top 3 favourites to do it. And consequently be deserving winners. Something your begrudgery couldn't mask.

PHB

If Liverpool win, then fair ****ing dues to them. But this isn't what I think the CL is about. Its the top 4 in the league over the year. A league reflects who is better much much more than a cup ever can.
Liverpool might beat Chelsea, they might beat Milan, but they lost to Crystal Palace, so imo they don't deserve to be in the CL next year.

Guy:Incognito

PHB wrote:

.
One of the ideas was to get everyone with football fans ID cards, issue it based on social security numbers, and then sell the tickets to the ID cards. It means that you can only ever get one card, although obviously you can get em replaced if you loose them. It means you can just swipe your card to get into matches, it removes a ****load of stewarding jobs, so it's kinda cost efficient too. Also it allows for easy banning

They'd have the civil liberties hippies up in arms if they tried to bring in id cards.

uberwolf

champions deserve to be allowed defend their trophy.

Sure look at the WC or EC. Automatic.

BTW I think this is all hypothetical for this year as I don't want to get my hopes up too much re: liverpool.

UTD lost to Norwich - so they shouldn't go through? Yes Liverpool have been ****e most of the season. But if they win those 3 games it shouldn't even be up for debate. How else can the trophy be returned?

[trivia]btw if Liverpool win the CL they will retain the trophy for winning it 5 times.[/trivia]

TheMonster

uberwolf wrote:

champions deserve to be allowed defend their trophy.

Sure look at the WC or EC. Automatic.

Check your facts m8 :rolleyes: World cUp defintely doesn't and pretty sure EC doesn't either.

uberwolf

TheMonster wrote:

Check your facts m8 :rolleyes: World cUp defintely doesn't and pretty sure EC doesn't either.

ah thanks 'm8'

yes indeed the WC has changed - for the next holding.
Like you I cann't find out re: EC.
My understanding was that the lack of competitive games was a disadvantage to teams. Not a prob for club competitions. Also Liverpools problem is that the games are too competitive.

PHB

It wouldn't be a civil liberty thing, it'd like be a tesco club card style thingy

Third_Echelon

uberwolf wrote:

further if Liverpool were to win the CL they would have beaten the top 3 favourites to do it. And consequently be deserving winners. Something your begrudgery couldn't mask.

I'm not begrudging liverpool at all. why should I? Bit quick on the presumption there i think uberwolf.

I'm defending my teams right to represent their country in the CL.

The points I made were not begrudging, they were true. Leverkusen and Juve were brutal. If they beat a chelsea and a milan on full song, then fair play, but i honestly dont see that happening if the two teams are performing at top ability.

Third_Echelon

uberwolf wrote:

ah thanks 'm8'

yes indeed the WC has changed - for the next holding.
Like you I cann't find out re: EC.
My understanding was that the lack of competitive games was a disadvantage to teams. Not a prob for club competitions. Also Liverpools problem is that the games are too competitive.

France had to qualify for Euro 2004 as far as I know..

Jivin Turkey

Third_Echelon wrote:

I'm not begrudging liverpool at all. why should I? Bit quick on the presumption there i think uberwolf.

I'm defending my teams right to represent their country in the CL.

The points I made were not begrudging, they were true. Leverkusen and Juve were brutal. If they beat a chelsea and a milan on full song, then fair play, but i honestly dont see that happening if the two teams are performing at top ability.

Liverpool were stunning home and away against Leverkusen. They didnt let them play and played to their own full potential. Liverpool made Leverkusen look brutal, Im sure they would have done the same to anyone who played them either of those days.

Juventus looked a very good side in Anfield, and played very well in the second half. However Liverpool were again going full steam ahead and were better for the first half and it was enough to win the tie. In the second leg Liverpool went to Turin to do a job which they did. They soaked up everything Juventus had and hit them on the break. If Milan had put in the same performance you would need a stick to beat the plaudits off.

No matter what Liverpool seem to do, some people are just claiming that the opposition is crap. And I know it will be the same if the beat Chelsea. Credit where its due.

If they go on to win the CL they should be in it next year regardless of their league position. If thats at the expense of the 4th place team so be it. I think the winners should qualify automatically and I cant understand why the rule was changed in the first place as it only gives rise to potential scenarios as we have here.

People are talking about court cases and precident, but as has been shown the only other time this happened the CL winners were put in at the expense of the 4th place team (Real and Zaragoza). If UEFA want to grant another place then fine (and probably what should be the case anyway) but unless that happens in my opinion there is no way that a team that finishes 4th in the league should be given a place over the winners of the competition.

uberwolf

from koptalk


The Football Association will meet tomorrow to try and decide who will go into next year's Champions League competition should Liverpool win the tournament.

F.A. bosses must decide whether the qualification place should go to Liverpool as holders (should they win) or to Everton (should they finish 4th in the Premier League). Under such circumstances only one team could be entered into the Champions League next time around.

The good news is that new F.A. chief executive Brian Barwick is a Liverpool fan! It would also be criminal for a team that finishes fourth to be preferred over the winners of the competition.

There's still a long way to go but the F.A. must have a decision in place should it happen.

PHB

hmm

Uefa have confirmed that The Football Association will have the final say on who will be England's fourth representative in the Champions League.

Everton are currently in pole position to claim the fourth and final spot through The Premiership, but the waters have been muddied as there is the possibility of Liverpool going all the way in this season's competition.

The rules as they stand mean that Liverpool would not be present in next year's draw, despite being holders, and this has led to suggestions that the criteria should be changed.

There have been suggestions that various legal challenges could be made by both sides, and Europe's governing body are prepared to leave the decision to The FA - although they favour entry through The Premiership.

"There is no way England can have more that four teams so in the first instance we would refer it to the English FA to make the decision if it arises," Uefa chief executive Lars Christer Olsen told the Daily Express.

"But normally I would say that it's more important if you are qualified through your national league position than if you have won the competition."
Liverpool will have to bypass the sizeable obstacle that is Chelsea if they are to keep their dreams of winning this season's competition alive - with the two sides set to meet in the first leg of their semi-final at Stamford Bridge on Wednesday.