Star Trek Enteprrise, Season 4, Episode 18: In a Mirror Darkly

_Kaiser_

But if we assume that my earlier point is right, then we don't need a Mirror Enterprise-E as "our" Enterprise has already provided the help/damage (as we see in the movie).

It's after this that things start to go wrong (as seen in the intro to the episode) where Cochrane either:

(a) Shakes hands with the Vulcan - the original Universe we all know and love

(b) Shoots him - thus creating the Mirror Universe

and thus after this, Cochrane can indeed make the same speech about the Borg LATER in both universes. The difference is that he retracts it in the original Universe, but not in the Mirror, resulting in the Terran Empire.

MrPinK

If everything was the same up until that point then Cochrane would have been told by the Enterprise crew that the Vulcans come in peace and that they were going to form a peacful federation of planets together and save humanity from self destruction. It's a bit unlikely that he'd shoot the vulcan in that case. Actually, didn't the Enterprise crew stay and watch the first contact? I doubt they'd just stand there and watch the Vulcans get killed and the timeline get messed up.

While it's possible that the two histories were the same up until first contact, I don't think the borg/enterprise intervention could have happened in the mirror universe.

bizmark

MrPinK wrote:

While it's possible that the two histories were the same up until first contact, I don't think the borg/enterprise intervention could have happened in the mirror universe.

I'd say the enterprise-E was'nt even built in the Mu because the E-E we know of must of been layed down around the second seasion of ds9 if not earlier in order to make its first movie apperance and been in space of a year before that (as was said on screen) terran empire was destroyed years before that me thinks

_Kaiser_

MrPinK wrote:

If everything was the same up until that point then Cochrane would have been told by the Enterprise crew that the Vulcans come in peace and that they were going to form a peacful federation of planets together and save humanity from self destruction. It's a bit unlikely that he'd shoot the vulcan in that case. Actually, didn't the Enterprise crew stay and watch the first contact? I doubt they'd just stand there and watch the Vulcans get killed and the timeline get messed up.

While it's possible that the two histories were the same up until first contact, I don't think the borg/enterprise intervention could have happened in the mirror universe.

Heres where I think we run into plot inconsistencies rather than logic problems. From what we saw in the intro, First Contact was shown as the key point.. everything about it is the same until Cochrane shoots the Vulcan (including the extras?)...this is in fact our first clue that things aren't what we remember.

Now yes in the movie I think Picard and crew stuck around to witness it, but I'm assuming for financial/image reasons they couldnt include those scenes in the episode... similar to how Jadzia wasn't shown in the montage for the DS9 finale.

The Borg/Enterprise intervention didn't happen in the Mirror Universe so no, there is no alternate Enterprise-E as, to my mind, there WAS no Mirror Universe until Cochrane makes the decision to kill the Vulcan.

MrVestek

MrPinK wrote:

While it's possible that the two histories were the same up until first contact, I don't think the borg/enterprise intervention could have happened in the mirror universe.

Which is exactly the point I was trying to make.

Nietzschean

One thing i don't get is that in normal enterprise the vulcan's have shields, where as enterprise still uses hull plating even though the vulcan's are their slaves?

only reason i can guess at is that vulcans are ultra passivists so don't have shields?

doh.ie

Kaiser2000 wrote:

The Borg/Enterprise intervention didn't happen in the Mirror Universe so no, there is no alternate Enterprise-E as, to my mind, there WAS no Mirror Universe until Cochrane makes the decision to kill the Vulcan.

Makes sense. Ironically, it was the *LACK* of a Borg presence in the Mirror Universe (and the Enterprise crew's presence which would have occurred otherwise) which caused Cochrane to assume these aliens were the enemy. (Maybe if he'd contemplated the words "*Peace* and long life..." for a few more seconds.) In any case, bit of a rash decision on Cochrane's part. I think we agree the universes were identical (more or less so) up until First Contact, and the lack of the Enterprise-E's presence caused Cochrane and his followers to go nuts when the first aliens arrives on Earth. (Remember, too, this is just after World War III, so everyone on Earth wasn't exactly in a happy/peacey mood.

MrVestek

Just on a little side note, was the guy who played Cochraine even credited? I don't think so. This leads me to beleive that they just re-used footage from the movie up until that point, i mean the actors are practically the same and I dont think they'd be able to rehire the same actors as they'd be busy or whatever. If you actually notice when he takes out the phaser type weapon from his pocket we never get to see his face, and when he's spurring the others on to raid the ship, we don't get to see his face either. Just clever editing methinks :-)

doh.ie

I'm pretty sure it was the beared guy who spurred everyone one, as the acting rule is, "if you speak, you get credited and paid." James Cromwell and the actor playing the Vulcan guy agreed to accept "scale" (minimum clearance payment) for the use of the footage. (That's mentioned on the MP3 podcast of the episode.)

I agree there remains an issue about whether they were credited or not. They may have appeared on the official end credits, but UPN chops those off these days and makes their own to run a promo alongside. We may not know for sure until Sky One airs it. They're not credited on startrek.com's episode details, though, which makes me wonder if they're not, as even actors playing 'Crewman #1' and 'Orion Officer' are normally listed there.

I also wonder if, legally, they need to include 'Excerpt from Star Trek: First Contact - Written by Ronald D. Moore & Brannon Braga, Directed by Jonathan Frakes' in there, even though the ending is not the same...

They did just edit it so that it could fit with the footage, but not require Cromwell to have to return. Notice how when we next see him full-frame, he's shooting his rifle in the air, but his head is turned back towards the crowd.

MrVestek

doh.ie wrote:

They did just edit it so that it could fit with the footage, but not require Cromwell to have to return. Notice how when we next see him full-frame, he's shooting his rifle in the air, but his head is turned back towards the crowd.

Lol dude that's exactly what I just said. People on boards.ie seem to be just repeating what i've typed up lately :P But yeah all i meant was i didn't think they were redraughted in for the episode is all.

Goodshape

My theory : There was no Borg and no Enterprise-E in Cochranes mirror universe, for reasons others have pointed out. This means that the first warp flight went ahead without interference from either - no borg to mess things up, no Ent-E to forewarn them about the Vulcans.

So Cochrane's ship launches on time, Vulcans see warp signature and decide to pay a visit. Seen as Picard wasn't around to tell them otherwise, Cochrane's just doing it for the money.. when aliens land he sees the chance for some more and starts blasting (don't forget this is a war-torn Earth at this stage - they'd be used to shooting first).

You could argue that the E turned up before the change but this doesn't make sense to me as the mirror universe that Cochrane creates means there is no Enterprise E. Bit of a paradox that one - his actions on tuesday created the mirror universe on the previous monday sortofthing.

User45701

doh.ie wrote:

Is this established in an episode (and therefore canon), or is it a fan theory? (It's a damn good one if it is...) It's just that I don't remember this being spoken about on screen. Was it in one of the DS9 mirror universe episodes? I may need to go back and rewatch those.

It is what william shatenr wrote in one of his books (very good books i might add according to shater the borg did not threaten the teran empire for long)

MrPinK wrote:

Sounds like fan theory to me. The problem I see with it is that it doesn't fit the terran empire histroy shown in opening credits, where a terran empire flag is planted during the moon landing. If the empire was around since the 60's then that would go some way towards explaining how they conquered the vulcans. With a single military organisation ruling the entire world they probably would have made a lot of advancements in terms of weapons and defensive technologies.

ofcoarse that makes sence i just assumed that the flag was placed after 1st contact once man began to rebuild and enter space again

Kaiser2000 wrote:

It was a theory put forward in one of William Shatner's "Return" (of Kirk) books - can't remember which one - but given the opening sequence of this episode it seems that some of the writers have read it too.

It would fit in if you just presume that after the establishment of the Empire post First Contact, they reclaimed the moon as well - the spacesuit the astronaut has on seems more advanced than they had in the 60s too which would support this

Well spoted i didnt think of that the space suti was more advanced supporting whati said above that they reconquerd the moon as they reentered space

Achilles wrote:

Well erm, to be honest I can't see how that would have happened in the Mirror Universe. We've seen no evidence so far that there was a Mirror Universe Enterprise-E, and even if there were I doubt they'd care enough to go back in time to help Cochraine defeat the borg. I don't think the empire has had to deal with the borg.... yet. Or possibly not at all, seeing as if the whole time travel thing hadn't happened then going by 'Regeneration' the borg never would have been able to send a signal to the Delta Quadrent more than 100 years after 1st contact.

no no no the therey runningat the the mo is that there was once only 1 timline the know star trek ti line but when the enteprise travled back in time a 2nd timeline split (this has happned countless times in star trek but this event was unquie because it caushed our univerce and the mirror univerce to stay somehow linked in a unusual way. when the enteprise travled backm in time and the univerces split both time lines both cochaines where awhere of the enterprise

Kaiser2000 wrote:

Heres where I think we run into plot inconsistencies rather than logic problems. From what we saw in the intro, First Contact was shown as the key point.. everything about it is the same until Cochrane shoots the Vulcan (including the extras?)...this is in fact our first clue that things aren't what we remember.

Now yes in the movie I think Picard and crew stuck around to witness it, but I'm assuming for financial/image reasons they couldnt include those scenes in the episode... similar to how Jadzia wasn't shown in the montage for the DS9 finale.

The Borg/Enterprise intervention didn't happen in the Mirror Universe so no, there is no alternate Enterprise-E as, to my mind, there WAS no Mirror Universe until Cochrane makes the decision to kill the Vulcan.

good good i like that has my mind spinning mabe the exact moment on first contact wasent the turnign point mabe something small happend like ur womman in FC mabe she died onbaoprd the entperise and cochraine never trusted any aliens r the enteprise crew or mabe in the alterd timline the enterpise self destructed or something who knows

doh.ie wrote:

Makes sense. Ironically, it was the *LACK* of a Borg presence in the Mirror Universe (and the Enterprise crew's presence which would have occurred otherwise) which caused Cochrane to assume these aliens were the enemy. (Maybe if he'd contemplated the words "*Peace* and long life..." for a few more seconds.) In any case, bit of a rash decision on Cochrane's part. I think we agree the universes were identical (more or less so) up until First Contact, and the lack of the Enterprise-E's presence caused Cochrane and his followers to go nuts when the first aliens arrives on Earth. (Remember, too, this is just after World War III, so everyone on Earth wasn't exactly in a happy/peacey mood.

mabe it does make sence mabe there was something elce completly unrelated to the borg and ent - e
perhaps something elce changed things like mabe a victor in ww3 the nation that evuently becomes the terran empire cause if the event had nothing to do with the borg then the borg wouldent have sent any ship back in time and then the borg ship wouldent have sent a signal to the delta quadrent like in FC so then the borg where never awhere of the threat of humans

Achilles wrote:

Just on a little side note, was the guy who played Cochraine even credited? I don't think so. This leads me to beleive that they just re-used footage from the movie up until that point, i mean the actors are practically the same and I dont think they'd be able to rehire the same actors as they'd be busy or whatever. If you actually notice when he takes out the phaser type weapon from his pocket we never get to see his face, and when he's spurring the others on to raid the ship, we don't get to see his face either. Just clever editing methinks :-)

phaser type thing? looked liek a standerd shotgun to me lol but yes ur right it was just editing

Goodshape wrote:

My theory : There was no Borg and no Enterprise-E in Cochranes mirror universe, for reasons others have pointed out. This means that the first warp flight went ahead without interference from either - no borg to mess things up, no Ent-E to forewarn them about the Vulcans.

So Cochrane's ship launches on time, Vulcans see warp signature and decide to pay a visit. Seen as Picard wasn't around to tell them otherwise, Cochrane's just doing it for the money.. when aliens land he sees the chance for some more and starts blasting (don't forget this is a war-torn Earth at this stage - they'd be used to shooting first).

You could argue that the E turned up before the change but this doesn't make sense to me as the mirror universe that Cochrane creates means there is no Enterprise E. Bit of a paradox that one - his actions on tuesday created the mirror universe on the previous monday sortofthing.

very much like the sumary i was planning to have.

i love the mirror univerce but lets face it

there was
1 TOS episode
4 DS9 episodes
2 ENT episodes

7 episodes
7x45mins = 5 hours and 25 mins thats all we have thats cannon thats very little so unless they rveal allot in part 2 we will have to wait till the next star trek series to find out

I love the mirror univerce and time travel and all this i cant get enough of temperal paradoxs. the mirror univerce is a mystery in shatners books 2 spoks talked about it and agreat that the key event took place around first contact with humans and vulcans and this would make sence being brutally suppresed owuld have made the cardassians and klingons brutal and angry to humans
one of the best battles i ever heard described was in shatners books there was another battle of wolf 359 in which tghe teran fleet battled against the alliance forces in dfence of earth the battle lasted for several days and resulted in massive deaths and once the fleet fell the alliance forces broke through and laid wastte to earth with 3 days of constant bombardment ( the klingons where pissed off) the ocearns boiled and became deserts and all forests where burned to the ground humans that wernt on earth where enslaved.

a movie based in the mirror univerce would be very popular and would explain allot

MrPinK

User45701 wrote:

i just assumed that the flag was placed after 1st contact once man began to rebuild and enter space again

That would make sense, except it happens before the first warp flight in the credits, which are supposed to be a chronological look at history. But that might just have been a mistake rather than something significant.

halenger

You're right about the crediting. If you read what TVTome says about the two episodes it's very interesting stuff. Maybe it came from startrek.com but I've not looked at that stuff yet. A stand-in did the shooting etc for Cochrane. The rest was stock footage.
The intro was great. I'm so glad that some Sci-Fi/show in general went to the effort. It really adds to the atmosphere. Fantastic stuff.