FG Launch safestreets.ie

aodh_rua

Not sure if this has made the papers yet, but Fine Gael are lauching a major campaign on anti-social behaviour. Unlike the normal bluster, they're planning on carrying out 100 public meetings around the country to get a broad range of input rather than just making noise. They're also launching a website safestreets.ie to give people an opportunity to air their experiences - just like their ripoff.ie site.

magpie

We will give the Gardaí discretion to impose on-the-spot fines of €50 – €100 where a person is found engaging in ASB as defined in legislation. Fines imposed on under-18s will be payable by parents. In the event of parental refusal to pay, incremental deductions from earnings or social welfare payments will be made.

Excellent

Fine Gael will amend the existing law to oblige the owners of defaced or dilapidated property (commercial and public) to repair any vandalism in public view within one week. If the repair is not carried out, the Local Authority will serve a Repair Notice, and if necessary, carry out the repairs, and except in exceptional circumstances, recover costs from the property owner.

Good idea

Fine Gael will put in place National Standards and a Code of Conduct to deal with anti-social tenants. On being allocated housing, local-authority tenants should be subject to the same standard of behaviour applicable to private housing tenants. In addition, they will be obliged to sign an agreement saying they accept any conditions attached to the tenancy and the resultant consequences of a breach which may include fines for initial offences and eviction for the most extreme.
An intensive programme of intervention, based on a successful scheme in Scotland, will be put in place to deal with extremely difficult families.

Ditto

Gets my vote. Though the site should nail its colours to the mast and call itself waronchavs.ie

Chalk

according to todays indom its only if they get elected.

i espsecially like the idea of getting reserve gards to look after concersts and matches and free up proper gards for actual police work.
would the GRA go for it tho? theyed still see it as police losing ot opportunities and the like.

I could also see this not being terribly effective without the 24hr courts, would community courts cover this?
and the idea of getting the vandaliser to repair damage to property seems a bit dodgy to me.
unless theres a 24hr watch on the offender he could make that a personal thing against the victim. we all know this happens, and its why a lot of crime goes unreported.

also,
there back on to banning alcopops again,
ffs do they not think kids will go back to mixing vodka and cordial if they cant get there alco pops????
proper control not prohibiton, this part , for me, makes the whole thing seem overbearing rather than reassuring.

Xterminator

I would agree with the above measures, but, .... there are enough laws on the books at the moment to allow guards deal with antisocial behaviour.

The proble is not the legislation, but the poor enforcement of the existing laws.

I dont see much point in bringing in new laws that can be equally as ignored!

The guards are not on the beat! Too many are bogged down doing paperwork etc, which is best done by civilians, freeing up guards to do their job, and fight crime!

The courts need to get tougher with repeat offenders. Spaces need to be made available for young offenders. I would personally like to see better use of things like electronic tagging in conjunction with probation, so that those released dont go back to their old habits.

X

Nuttzz

All common sense stuff, but if they were ever elected you would see these measure diluted somewhat

incremental deductions from earnings or social welfare payments will be made

you will probably find some high/supreme court action will be taken to prevent this from happening.

cdebru

I dont like the idea of on the spot fines for ASB seems to be another move away from peoples right to a judge /jury and a proper justice system

especially not without serious reform of the Gardai

you can only imagine how that could have been abused by the gardai in the mcbreaty case considering how many charges they brought against them in the courts

swiss

Doubtlessly, anti-social behaviour, or ASB as the website likes to call it is a pretty major problem in Ireland today. On the surface, most of the proposals to tackle ASB appear to be commonsense. However, I would have a few concerns with the implementation details of some of these ASB proposals.

One such concern I have is that of forcing the owners of defaced property to repair that damage. Responsibility is effectively abrogated away from the perpetrator to the victim. In the case of an individuals home being targeted repeatedly for acts of graffitti or vandalism, would it be fair to expect that individual to clean up every time, or face fines?

Making it an offence to sell spray paint to under 18 also seems to be a good idea. However, what if the minor wants to use it for an art project, for example? Or for private use? As unlikely as it may seem for a youth to use spray paint for such a purpose, the principal measure of such legislation would be to impose a blanket ban on a particular product because it can be used for anti social purposes. I can use a hammer for anti social purposes. Are they going to ban hammers?

In a similar vein, I don't think banning the sale of 'alcopops' from off licences is necessarily a good idea. Do they think that kids are going to stop drinking alcohol because it doesn't taste as sweet as before? What next, ban sugar? The principle behind the idea is well intentioned - that is to stop the sale of the favorite alcoholic drinks of minors in order to stop them drinking them. The problem is that it mitigates against adults who drink alcopops (yes I know a few), and that ultimately there is little indication that it would be an effective measure to curb underage drinking.

With regard to on the spot fines, I wouldn't necessarily agree that these would be a judicially sticky issue. On the spot fines have been issued to drivers for traffic offences such as speeding and running red lights for a long time. The issue of abuse of these legislative powers touches on the wider area of crime detection and prosecution, and can be ameliorated through effective police ombudsmen.

In spite of these concerns, I do think there is merit in some of the proposals. I especially like the idea of providing the option of rehabilitation to drug misusers as opposed to arbitrarily sentencing them to prison or community service. I think the proposals need some work, but they could form the basis of a very effective and fair anti social behaviour policy.

dathi1

there may be a glimmer of light on the horizon...http://www.bnp.org.uk/policies/policies.htm#crime wishfull thinking

Sparks

I'd love to see how they plan on defining anti-social behaviour in legislation in a way that wouldn't have brought a tear to a dictator's eye...

AngelofFire

I have never read such sensationalist populist crap in my life.

We will give the Gardaí discretion to impose on-the-spot fines of €50 – €100 where a person is found engaging in ASB as defined in legislation. Fines imposed on under-18s will be payable by parents. In the event of parental refusal to pay, incremental deductions from earnings or social welfare payments will be made.

This gives increased powers to a gardai force that is currently under investigation for corruption and misconduct. First of all what evidence would a garda need to show that this person was in breach of the law?, his or own subjective opinion. Is it really wise to give the gardai powers of initiative that they have shown in the past that they cant be trusted to use.

Fine Gael will ban the sale of so-called alcopops in off-licences.

A drachonian measure which will disproportionatley limit the freedom of the vast majority of people who consume alchopops who dont end up in the A&E or cause violence on the streets.

cdebru

Sparks wrote:

I'd love to see how they plan on defining anti-social behaviour in legislation in a way that wouldn't have brought a tear to a dictator's eye...

my point exactly how do you define exactly what ASB is

on the spot fines for a car in excess of the speed limit or parked illegally are easy to define and prove

would someone raising their voice be anti social or loitering or just having a look that a particular garda did not like

billy the squid

We will give the Gardaí discretion to impose on-the-spot fines of €50 – €100 where a person is found engaging in ASB as defined in legislation. Fines imposed on under-18s will be payable by parents. In the event of parental refusal to pay, incremental deductions from earnings or social welfare payments will be made.

eh only social welfare recipients will be nailed if their child is acting the bollix. what about working people, it should be direct debited out of their wages also.

We will extend the existing law so that a parenting order can be issued compelling parents to attend parenting courses or counselling, where the child has been the subject of an ASB Order

This should be done on the birth of a child. and done again if their child is being a little bastard.

Where a person is known to have engaged in ASB (e.g. harassment or intimidation) we will empower the courts to grant an order preventing him or her from frequenting a particular area, or associating with particular people.

Only way I can see this being enforsed is they were to electronicly tag the offender, and his friends. although electronic tagging might keep them out of areas where they are causing trouble.

ine Gael will allow the courts to impose two types of curfew order relating to people and place.
Firstly, the courts will be able to impose a curfew order on a particular person to ensure that he or she is prevented from either initiating or taking part in ASB. Secondly, in the case of clearly identified problem areas, the court will have the power to impose a curfew order on all under 18s within the limits of that area, for a limited time. These curfews will not apply to children accompanied by a responsible adult.

The problem here is that not every adult is responsible. In the areas where you are likely to have this type of behaviour the kids are picking it up from the likes of people in their 20s, and hanging around with people in their late teens and early 20s. Ban all kids after a certain time in a trouble area.

stopping the sale of alcopops in off licences will just encourage bootleg products comeing in over the border, putting money in the back pocket of the criminals.

sceptre

billy the squid wrote:

eh only social welfare recipients will be nailed if their child is acting the bollix. what about working people, it should be direct debited out of their wages also.

I can see "earnings" up there too.

This should be done on the birth of a child. and done again if their child is being a little bastard.

Agreed.

No points for FG for deciding that alcopops are a big big issue and worthy of a section on its own in their new campaign.

oscarBravo

AngelofFire wrote:

This gives increased powers to a gardai force that is currently under investigation for corruption and misconduct.

As I recall, there is a small number of members under investigation out of a force of over twelve thousand. Restricting the effectiveness of the entire force on that basis seems a little short-sighted.

AngelofFire wrote:

First of all what evidence would a garda need to show that this person was in breach of the law?, his or own subjective opinion. Is it really wise to give the gardai powers of initiative that they have shown in the past that they cant be trusted to use.

Hundreds - if not thousands - of gardaí use their initiative on a daily basis. Is it really wise to curb their scope to do so based on the actions of a few?

By the same token, there are a small handful of people who can't be trusted to act in a socially responsible way - should the entire population be confined under house arrest as a result?

MadsL

I dont like the idea of on the spot fines for ASB seems to be another move away from peoples right to a judge /jury and a proper justice system

Correct. Kiss goodbye to your civil liberties. Look at how far the UK has moved along this road, The Criminal Justice Act was just the start, and ASB orders have reduced civil liberties furthur. Bring on an ID cards and the UK is now more like (hesitates to use the words) a police state than any other EU state.

What is needed is NY's zero-tolerance, with instant processing of offenders. Can't wait to suggest night court to our suburban judges however.

Boggle

Mixed reaction to this. At least they are addressing the problem but they seem to be a little misguided in their ideas...

Fine Gael will amend the existing law to oblige the owners of defaced or dilapidated property (commercial and public) to repair any vandalism in public view within one week. If the repair is not carried out, the Local Authority will serve a Repair Notice, and if necessary, carry out the repairs, and except in exceptional circumstances, recover costs from the property owner.

So the victim gets placed under financial pressure in this case.

In a similar vein, I don't think banning the sale of 'alcopops' from off licences is necessarily a good idea. Do they think that kids are going to stop drinking alcohol because it doesn't taste as sweet as before?

When is the last time that anyone was harassed by a gang of youths drinking anything BUT Dutch Gold?? Should we ban that too?
Lets face it, alot of "legal" drinkers like the stuff too so why should they be punished?? It should be enough that all teens found drunk in the streets are punished...

With regard to on the spot fines, I wouldn't necessarily agree that these would be a judicially sticky issue. On the spot fines have been issued to drivers for traffic offences such as speeding and running red lights for a long time. The issue of abuse of these legislative powers touches on the wider area of crime detection and prosecution, and can be ameliorated through effective police ombudsmen.

You mean they've been getting away with it. Anything that tries to scare you off from defending yourself in court by means of stated distinct punishment levels is counter your rights as as an Irish citizen.

Sparks

Er, parenting courses? Run by whom, exactly? And if everyone has to go to them on the birth of their child, how much fun is it going to be to be getting some "D4 luvvies" or "Howth Dahlings" to go to the same course as the "Sherrif Street Skangers"? You'd have riots from both sides of the social divide...

That said, from having seen my own mother reduced to near-tears because of parents sending their kids to her school hungry because they were too hung over to make breakfast, and the general poor nutrition of kids in general, making home economics classes mandatory right through to Leaving Cert level wouldn't be a bad idea. That and civics - I mean if you can't feed yourself and don't know how the state works, just how educated are you? And this is on topic y'know - diet has a proven effect on behaviour, with poor diets tending to exacerbate ADD-like conditions.

magpie

As per Jamie's School Dinners.

Originally school dinners were provided because parents were too poor to feed their kids, now they're too lazy/drunk/indifferent.

billy the squid

Sparks wrote:

Er, parenting courses? Run by whom, exactly? And if everyone has to go to them on the birth of their child, how much fun is it going to be to be getting some "D4 luvvies" or "Howth Dahlings" to go to the same course as the "Sherrif Street Skangers"? You'd have riots from both sides of the social divide...

not if the courses were run in the community. The D4 Luvvies would do their course in D4 and the sheriff street people would be thought in Sherrif Stret.

It could be made as rutine as applying for childrens allowance. Do D4 people go to the same post office as the Sherrif Street people to get the application form?

monument

oscarBravo wrote:

As I recall, there is a small number of members under investigation out of a force of over twelve thousand. Restricting the effectiveness of the entire force on that basis seems a little short-sighted. Hundreds - if not thousands - of gardaí use their initiative on a daily basis. Is it really wise to curb their scope to do so based on the actions of a few?

Serious claims and partly proven claims ranging from the apparent conduct of individuals to the apparent conduct of the force at large…

[EDIT: for clarity, this is a sample list of claimed individual cases (mostly involving high-profile cases) that apparently amounts to wide-spread corruption and abuse, it in no way reflects on every single garda or even on the majority of the force...]

Apparent attacks on innocent protesters (Dublin) [source: most of the media]… attacking people on a night out and arresting them because of “arrest targets” set by superiors (Dublin) [s: PrimeTime]… claims members of the force that speed cameras are placed with gaining money in mind and not stop deaths (nationwide?) [s: Today FM news]… to threats of arrest if payment is not made (Castlebar) [S: the Irish times]… to planting evidence and lying under oath (Donegal) [source: most of the media]… apparent collusion with paramilitary ending with deaths [source: most of the media]… claims that the garda (as well as the RUC) let a bomb go to protect their informer which again ended with deaths (Donegal?/Garda HQ) [s: the Guardian/Observer] etc etc etc…

But the problem is not really these individual cases, but rather a denial that there is anything wrong, a serious lack of willingness (by goverment and the force) for investigations into such cases, and a worrying state of mind that some garda have of being above the law [note the reaction in the past day to officers been in court on assault charges, most of whom where acquitted].

And it’s not just the likes of myself who has doubts about the Garda - last year (possible the year before) a judge practically said she could no longer trust a garda’s word – the frount page of the Western People was devoted to the story, so you could have possible seeing that.


Anyway, first giving the garda the numbers of officers they need, and then have the Garda engaging in community policing (that’s where they don’t just zoom by in patrol car) would be nice suggestion from a party, but such suggestions wouldn’t be very FG [Irish Conservatives] sounding, and they wouldn’t be that populist and topical (in other words headline catching).

monument

monument wrote:

Serious claims and partly proven claims ranging from the apparent conduct of individuals to the apparent conduct of the force at large…

still minor out of a force of 12,000 though and comparable to other countries if not considerably better than some

Apparent attacks on innocent protesters (Dublin) [source: most of the media]…

The reclaim the streets thing? yup badly caught out there, but there was court action and if anything, it did serve to make recurances less likely

attacking people on a night out and arresting them because of “arrest targets” set by superiors (Dublin) [s: PrimeTime]

Could you be a bit more specefic about the "attacking people" please as that could be construed as a further unfair attack on the whole 12,000 of them

claims members of the force that speed cameras are placed with gaining money in mind and not stop deaths (nationwide?)

That wouldnt surprise me.

[s: Today FM news][S: the Irish times]… to planting evidence and lying under oath (Donegal) [source: most of the media]… apparent collusion with paramilitary ending with deaths [source: most of the media]… claims that the garda (as well as the RUC) let a bomb go to protect their informer which again ended with deaths (Donegal?/Garda HQ) [s: the Guardian/Observer] etc etc etc…

The McBrierty stuff? again as already stated, it's not a representative example of Garda behaviour.

But the problem is not really these individual cases, but rather a denial that there is anything wrong, a serious lack of willingness (by goverment and the force) for investigations into such cases, and a worrying state of mind that some garda have of being above the law [note the reaction in the past day to officers been in court on assault charges, most of whom where acquitted].

Yes but there are plenty of gardaí who have been arrested and convicted of crimes, some of which have been in the national papers and some in the locals and some in none, but they're not something I'd like to hold up, wave about and say "hey we have a good justice system" either,its just another example of justice being served rather than justice being better because it convicts Gardaí aswell.
Similarally,I wouldn't complain about a justice system that doesn't in some cases convict Gardaí, as there are probably lots of cases where it fails to convict civilians either.
Criminal convictions against Gardaí are just another part of the demographic occurance of unacceptable behaviour, albeit, more morally unacceptable when it involves someone who is supposed to be upholding and enforcing the law.

And it’s not just the likes of myself who has doubts about the Garda - last year (possible the year before) a judge practically said she could no longer trust a garda’s word – the frount page of the Western People was devoted to the story, so you could have possible seeing that.

Indeed, but there are examples of judges too who have wronged, and given that there are a lot less judges than there are Gardaí , should we condemn all our judges too because of the mideameanours of a few here and there ? I think not.

Anyway, first giving the garda the numbers of officers they need, and then have the Garda engaging in community policing (that’s where they don’t just zoom by in patrol car) would be nice suggestion from a party, but such suggestions wouldn’t be very FG [Irish Conservatives] sounding, and they wouldn’t be that populist and topical (in other words headline catching).

I'd agree that some of the measures outlined by this FG campaign are laudable and worthwhile.
I'd also find it refreshing that they as an opposition party would at last be a bit more pro active in finding policy ground for themselves, it's a bit better that their more recent and usual weak efforts.

monument

Earthman wrote:

Could you be a bit more specefic about the "attacking people"

Peoples reports vie Primetime claimed that police officers were attacking people and then arresting them saying that the people attacked them – it was pretty unbelievable stuff. This reported practice within the centre of Dublin was said not to be confined to one or two people and not just one type of people.

Earthman wrote:

please as that could be construed as a further unfair attack on the whole 12,000 of them

I've made that clearer in my post, if you don't feel it's adequate please edited it further – the list of claimed events, or events, is in no way supposed to reflect on every member of our police force.... most of who do an outstanding job under huge pressure, with less then adequate resources from government.

mycroft

Earthman wrote:

still minor out of a force of 12,000 though and comparable to other countries if not considerably better than some
The reclaim the streets thing? yup badly caught out there, but there was court action and if anything, it did serve to make recurances less likelyCould you be a bit more specefic about the "attacking people" please as that could be construed as a further unfair attack on the whole 12,000 of them That wouldnt surprise me.The McBrierty stuff? again as already stated, it's not a representative example of Garda behaviour.

Just on an aside the criminal cases aganist the gardai relating to the reclaim the streets have all been resolved and one garda has recieved a one month suspended sentence, which he's appealing.

On top of this there are over 20 civil cases for assault aganist the Gardai arising from the matter and I'm assured that gardai will settle out of court in the majority of these cases. the Prime time last year lets us know the average figure is (approx) 15,000 to 250,000€ and we can assume out of court settlements are more generous than in court (on the assumption the garda/anyone are paying to avoid legal costs/media exposure. So aside from the cost of the failed criminal cases of the gardai, we the tax payer will front the cost of what could conservatively be 200,000€ and possibly run into millions despite no garda being convicted of assault.

Yes I'm aware of the irony of anti capitalist protestors suing for justice
, but the fact remains, of the 150 Gardai there are on the day 123 refused to co-operate with the GCB investigate and 17 offered no explaination for their failure to wear ID. 7 get slaps on the wrist as part of the GCB investigation, the Gardai who were part of the criminal investigation get off scot free. And we the tax payers get to pay the bill for civil cases.

This event occured two weeks before a General Election. Every party made gardai accountability an election pledge. Even FG. Mc Dowell's Garda bill makes a hamfist of the Garda ombudsman. This strikes me as another get tough on crime attitude which always gets some votes. But the fact remains we lack a reliable system for holding gardai accountable. 2001-2003, 179 assault charges made aganist gardai, two reach the DPP, both charges are dropped pre trial.

I'm not happy giving the gardai more powers when they lack accountability and a proper structure to make complaints aganist the gardai which will be taken seriously, We have the finest example of a complaints authority on the planet in the NI ombudsman, the fact that FF and PDs have taken three years to reach this hamfisted attempt that is the Garda bill and FG have forgotten their election pledge, and instead offered this.

cdebru

another point that would concern me is that these fines and ASBO could be taken and used in an area that they are not originally intended

for example could striking workers picketing a factory be considered to be harrassing or intimidating and be subject to on the spot fines or ASBOs

or any political protest could we see gardai dishing out fines to mobile phone mast or anti bin charges protesters or indeed them being subjected to ABSOs

mycroft

cdebru wrote:

another point that would concern me is that these fines and ASBO could be taken and used in an area that they are not originally intended

for example could striking workers picketing a factory be considered to be harrassing or intimidating and be subject to on the spot fines or ASBOs

or any political protest could we see gardai dishing out fines to mobile phone mast or anti bin charges protesters or indeed them being subjected to ABSOs

thru gritted teeth. He has a point. I've friends who've thrown illegal raves on government land over the past ten years. The wardens love em the leave the grounds in better shape than they when they started and the garda are the most part fine, but occasionally the garda get pissy, and agressive, an abos would be a fine way of destroying something that doesn't hurt anyone

oscarBravo

cdebru wrote:

could striking workers picketing a factory be considered to be harrassing or intimidating and be subject to on the spot fines or ASBOs

I've seen behaviour on picket lines that should be subject to prison sentences, never mind fines.

cdebru wrote:

or any political protest could we see gardai dishing out fines to mobile phone mast or anti bin charges protesters or indeed them being subjected to ABSOs

We can live in hope. But then, stupidity isn't a crime yet, is it?

cdebru

mycroft wrote:

thru gritted teeth. He has a point. I've friends who've thrown illegal raves on government land over the past ten years. The wardens love em the leave the grounds in better shape than they when they started and the garda are the most part fine, but occasionally the garda get pissy, and agressive, an abos would be a fine way of destroying something that doesn't hurt anyone

holy **** nuttz agreed with me yesterday and mycroft today whats happening to me

cdebru

oscarBravo wrote:

I've seen behaviour on picket lines that should be subject to prison sentences, never mind fines. We can live in hope. But then, stupidity isn't a crime yet, is it?

there are already laws there to deal with public order offences what i am talking about is people being deprived of the right to picket or peaceful protest irrespective of wether you or I think they have a valid arguement or not

coolhandluke

Surely ABSO's are aimed at juvenile offenders.

Macker

eh only social welfare recipients will be nailed if their child is acting the bollix. what about working people, it should be direct debited out of their wages also.

deductions from earnings or social welfare payments will be made.

Macker

ziggy

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