Italians shot in Iraq by US. update. ( Caliari )

Capt'n Midnight

The report into this was released in pdf format and censored but not well enough. Hidden details are visible by copying the text to another app. including the name of the shooter on page 34

http://www.repubblica.it/2005/d/sezioni/esteri/niccal3/rapportomiss/rapportomiss.html
report http://download.repubblica.it/pdf/rapportousacalipari.pdf 256KB in english

obligatory conspiracy theory link http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/032205Madsen/032205madsen.html

So is this just pure incompetance or is there more involved like a sacrifical offering to the Italians ? There is still some bad feeling about the pilots who flew an A6 into a cable car cable and caused the deaths of many skiers http://www.cnn.com/US/9902/26/marines.cable.car.02/ Going further back Italy had the largest communist party in a country where communists did not rule and some blame the US for reintroducing the mafia back after WWII.

It's hard to say yet how this will affect the US-Italian relationship. But I can't see it helping.

RagShagBill

No, this is, to put it simply, absurd. Why would they kill them? Because of some hard-feelings over a bad pilot? We all may like to think Americansare that irrational, but it's just not true. I admit that the blanking out in the report is pretty pathetic, but that happens in a lot of reports, usually for other reasons.

Remember where this thing started out, the woman who the bodyguard was helping, in the newspaper she writes for - Il Republica - a communist paper. We all know how are much the far-left will go to get a scoop on how BUSH IS TEH NAZI!!!!11

The Mafia theory is just a little too far-fetched for me. Killing a bodyguard, who is employed by an ally, because of something that happen 60/70 years ago? Some might say that perhaps the soldier in question haad a relative killed by the mafia and was taking his anger out on this lad, but I just can't believe that.

I put this down to plain incompetence. I would usually jump on the US for it's mistakes, faults etc but I think the left is just exploiting the European anti-Americanism that has grown since the invasion with far-fetched theories.



I realise how rambly that was, I was thinking while I went along. You get the jist of it.

Scruff

Wonder why it was called "Route Irish" ? To do with the amount of roadside attacks the British came under in the North or just coincidence?

swiss

I put this down to plain incompetence. I would usually jump on the US for it's mistakes, faults etc but I think the left is just exploiting the European anti-Americanism that has grown since the invasion with far-fetched theories.

Although incompetence was the primary reason why this tragedy happened, I don't think American incompetence is the issue, but American discrepancies in their accounting of the incident, which is suspicious at best and biased and arrogant at worst.

The most obvious incompetency was that of the position of the checkpoint, which by all accounts was relatively discreet. The point of putting checkpoints into obvious positions is to give incoming vehicles advanced warning of the checkpoint so that they can slow down and stop. By forcing vehicles to position themselves closer to the checkpoint before they see it, it means that security personnel have less time to decide whether the vehicle poses a threat or not, thus raising the overall chances of something like this happening.

The second most obvious incompetency, which was in the "censored" parts of the documents, was the lack of communication between the outpost and command, who were signalled that the Italian agent and the reporter were en route. Obviously, if the troops at the checkpoint expected the duo, it would have been very unlikely that they would have opened fire on their vehicle.

However, the discrepancies between the US report and the reporter who survived the incident, Ms Sgrena are quite stark. According to the report, the car was travelling at approximately 80km/h, while according to a parallel investigation by the Italians, the car was travelling at half that speed. The Italian report also notes that the vehicles were removed immediately and that the soldiers log reports were destroyed, making "objective conclusions" impossible. Other discrepancies were noted, and most of them are detailed at the following link:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4325253.stm

I don't know what to make of all of this yet, but it seems to me that the US have a habit of washing their hands of affairs such as this (incidents of this kind have occurred before) without really learning from them, in an apparant culture of back scratching and exoneration that - as we have just seen - is costing lives.

Capt'n Midnight

Have to agree that it's handling of the incident that is causing more problems than the incident itself.

The Corinthian

I wanted to wait until Berlusconi’s speech to parliament before commenting on this topic.

The conspiracy theories are unlikely to say the least - ultimately they don’t add up because, if anything, it was against US interests for this to happen as it has resulted in strained relations with one of the US’s last remaining major real allies (as opposed to all the ones who say they are). When attempting to determine the most likely cause we’re probably best, as Napoleon Bonaparte once noted, to "never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence."

Of course the problem has now been compounded with the handling of the investigation. My understanding is that the White House was amenable to finding the soldiers in question negligent, but ultimately the Pentagon steadfastly refused to allow this. The result has been an even greater worsening of relations between the US and Italy and a political standoff that has left Italy unsatisfied.

This of course just makes matters more difficult for Berlusconi and his speech today has not changed matters. The origins for Italy’s support (the real ones rather than the platitudes) are suitably Machiavellian and opportunistic. Italy has for a number of years been suffering from the fact that she did not punch her weight diplomatically - although populous and economically powerful, this was not reflected in how she was viewed on the international stage, something that La Farnesina (the Italian Foreign Service) has been complaining about for years. As an aside, Ireland has for a number of years been seen to punch well above her weight diplomatically (a frightening concept for anyone to have witnessed the patrons of Horicans at closing time on a Friday night).

So when the opportunity came about, to latch onto a more powerful ally on a military adventure, in the hope of a maximum political gain for a minimum of effort, Berlusconi gambled and jumped on the bandwagon. He wasn’t alone, in Europe, Spain and Bulgaria did the same thing. Unfortunately, Italy has not really gained much from the adventure, no one has really; all the prize reconstruction contracts and jobs are going to the Americans and very little is going elsewhere. Italy is now also relatively isolated in Europe - remember the European coalition members are technically in competition with each other to get a slice of the pie, while those who opposed the war are far more united. As for additional political power, it’s Germany and not Italy who’s in the running for a permanent UN Security Council seat.

On the expected down side it was never a popular move in Italy. Ironically the only time when it did increase in popularity was as a result of a surge in stubborn patriotism following the suicide bombing of the Italian HQ in An Nasiriyah in November 2003. However it has continued to be grow in unpopularity as the whole sorry affair has dragged on and it has become increasingly apparent that the reasons for being there have either been proved false or simply just been amended. The last nail in the coffin was the death of Calipari and a diplomatic notice to withdraw came soon afterwards.

Another downside has been that Italy’s traditionally strong diplomatic influence with the Arab World has suffered. Her lack of involvement in Libya is a telling example of this - bare in mind that Libya is a country I once heard joked of that if you weren’t in the employ of the Libyan secret police, you were probably in the employ of the Italian secret service.

What will happen next, unforeseen events notwithstanding is pretty much understood. To begin with, it is unlikely that Italy will be as forthcoming in it’s support of the US (sound bites and platitudes aside) in the future. Also, as long as the left in Italy don’t screw up and start infighting again (which is not that unlikely) they’re likely to, in the next general elections, defeat the right - many of whom, and I’d count myself in this group, don’t think it would be such a bad thing to be in opposition for a few years. It won’t make any difference to policy over Iraq (Italy will have already pretty much withdrawn by then), which is as well because what little benefit this American adventure has gained for Italy would be lost, as was by Spain in her rather undiplomatic withdrawal.

So ultimately Berlusconi’s gamble has not paid off and he is already suffering for it. I can understand his logic, but would have thought that he might have learned from the experience of one of his predecessors who made a similar gamble in 1940. So I don’t have a lot of sympathy for him.

MeatProduct

Incompetence allows people to get away with anything it would seem. Intentional or not this man was killed and as always the valuing of life comes at the bottom of the list.

Nick

Zombrex

I find it very hard to believe that the US soldiers intentionally shot the Italian intelligent agent. I would say it is far more likely they shot at the car because it was a moving car and the US Army has a policy of fire first ask questions later in Iraq.

Countless innocent Iraqis have been killed in similar circumstances at checkpoints around Iraq because the Americans treat everyone as a potential enemy and open fire at even a hint of a threat. This incident is just well know because it was Italians not Iraqis that were shot at. But unfortunatly there is nothing unique about this incendent and certainly nothing that would imply it was anything more than not properly trained US service men with itchy trigger fingers.

They do seem to be attempting, rather unsuccessfully, to cover it up though. I find it doubtful that an Italian secret service agent was knowingly speeding at 80mph towards an Army check point.