Airgun Target Shooting - Cant

Rovi

NO, not a 'Derek and Clive' reference!


A question though-
I see in a lot of the airgun target shooting pictures that shooters are holding the guns with a fair bit of cant (off vertical).
Like this one from the Target Photos sticky thread-

I'm just wondering if this is correct form, or were the photos taken at a bad moment?
You guys are shooting at a fixed known distance all the time (I think???), so I suppose that once the sights are zeroed, it wouldn't matter what way it was held so long as it was the same every time.
Sideways 'gangsta grip' anyone?

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Sparks

No, no, that's correct form.
And I've now committed the cardinal sin in saying that there is a correct form

Basicly, the rule of thumb is that you bring your rifle in to meet your head, while keeping your head upright. The idea is that if your head is upright, your inner ear works properly and you can keep your balance more finely, whereas tilting your head over to meet the rifle can screw that up and you'll be prone to tipping over.

However, there are several world class shooters who manage to shoot with head positions that are truely awful by that measure, and they get along just fine, so there are exceptions. On the other hand, these guys would go through a few thousand rounds a week in training, so they have much more time than most to get used to the position!

You'll find as well that the sights for the rifles can be canted in many cases so that they're upright when you're in position. (ie. you cant to the left by 15 degrees, the sights are canted to the right by 15 degrees). That way, adjustments to the sights don't have to take the cant angle into account.

(and yes, fixed distance every time for air rifle - 10 metres).

Barry Aldwell

Considering the level of accuracy required, would it not raise problems with the sights being at a tangent (ie not directly above the barrel)?

Sparks

It definitely does introduce some inaccuracy, but it's of sufficently small magnitude compared to what not canting the rifle introduces that it's worth it. Plus, the inaccuracy is smaller than most people's hold will normally wobble anyway. But, since there are the odd few who'd find it useful, there are sights (Centra make them among other companies) where the rear and foresight both rotate with the axis being in the centre of the bore. End result, the sights are directly above the barrel when the rifle's canted:

Is it just me, or does that foresight look to be straight (not canted)? wouldnt that really screw up your sight picture?

Also, you if you dont cant the rifle, you have to drop your head which really screws up your zero point - change of balance, shift in weight and your body naturally follows your head so canting the rifle gives you a rock solid position and thus good scores

Rovi

Ah, it makes sense now, in a crazy 'alternative reality' target shooting way
As you can rotate your sights so that windage and elevation are adjusted through the true horizontal and vertical, it doesn't make any difference at what angle the gun is held. Things would get very complicated very fast if you had to adjust for different ranges though.

I think I'll stick with keeping the rifle as close to vertical as I can

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Sparks

Thing is Rovi, not all the sights can be adjusted that way - the two rifles I shot on before I got my own both used non-cantable sights. You just remember that to go up a ring on the target is so many clicks right and so many clicks up is all. And you use your sighters to put the group on target at the start of the match and that's pretty much it for air rifle. Smallbore is a bit more complicated by wind and light outdoors, but people handled remembering how to adjust the sights for a long time before canted sights came out!

Ri_Nollaig

do u always use peep sights? i got a tau200 .177 and mess around with it shotting at a gamo pellet trap :P it came with loads of different stuff but i normaly just use the iron sights or scope is peep sights always used at pro level?

Sparks

Always peep sights Ri. And always open sights for ISSF pistol. No magnifiying lenses allowed (the one exception being that you're allowed wear a single corrective lens for your eye, but it can't be mounted in the sights it has to be worn like glasses. Hence the very odd shooting frames you see which are designed to hold the lens directly in front of the rearsight when you're in position. They're so odd-looking in fact, that they get a cameo in a Mad Max film

There is one discipline (running target) that uses a telescopic sight, but it's been dropped from the olympic programme and outside Germany isn't as popular as the other disciplines (it takes up a lot of room on the range - four or five firing point's worth).

But for everything else, from 10 metres out to 300 metres, it's all peep sights for rifle and open sights for pistol.

Ri_Nollaig

wow guess u covered that fairly clear

Sparks

Well, that was one of the ideas for the forum initially Ri, to answer questions about the sport. Glad to see it's working!

Rovi

Sparks is 'da maaan'



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rrpc

Sparks wrote:

No, no, that's correct form.
And I've now committed the cardinal sin in saying that there is a correct form

There is one other factor to take into consideration when canting a rifle. I used to cant my target rifle considerably, but found over time that the point of impact of recoil in the shoulder was sufficiently off-centre with the bore of the rifle as to introduce an alarming ' double kick' on firing which placed the shot usually at either 11 o'clock or 5 o'clock on the target, depending on the violence of the reaction. The sights would leave the point of aim in line with the angle of cant upwards, then downwards before coming to rest back on the target. The point of impact could be anywhere on that line usually on the eight ring :mad:

Because the rifle was canted, the butt plate had to be adjusted in the opposite direction of the cant to provide contact with the shoulder in the position as if the rifle was held upright, hence the point of recoil in the shoulder being off-centre with the bore, and hence the 'wild' recoil. This would not be a factor with air rifle, as modern precharged air-rifles exhibit no recoil whatsoever. Keeping the butt plate in line with the stock in the prone position is not possible as it would come in contact with your collarbone when canted. This would not present a problem with the standing position, as the butt plate is lowered and would not touch the collarbone.

I have taken most of the cant off the rifle, and now it is steady through each shot. The problem at the moment is that I now have to 'relearn' my position, as I have been shooting with the cant for about eight years, and struggling with these 'yips' almost as long.

On the plus side, the long struggle has honed all other parts of my technique to the extent that I can now call, extremely accurately where a shot has landed without checking my scope :cool:

Sparks

Found a few neat articles (though they're a bit heavy) on the details of this question. Good to read, though you'd want to print them out and leave them somewhere where you'd get a bit of uninterrupted time to read them

SPORT SHOOTING: THE EFFECT OF RIFLE CANT ON THE POINT OF IMPACT
EFFECT OF CANT ANGLE VARIATION ON POINT-OF-IMPACT IN AIR-RIFLE SHOOTING
LINE-OF-SIGHT HEIGHT AND THE CANT ANGLE EFFECT IN AIR-RIFLE SHOOTING
Enjoy...

Sparks - would you recommend using two sets of raiser blocks and then canting the rifle? Or is that going to send your shots well off the bull if you cant it too much?

Sparks

I'd say that if you need the two raiser blocks to keep an upright head position (and I'm thinking air rifle here, as rrpc points out, it's a different kettle of fish in .22, though I'd still use raisers on .22 for standing), then use the two raisers. Remember, though, that there's a limit on the size of raiser blocks for air and standard rifle - 60mm from centre of bore to centre of foresight.

Basicly, the upright head is more important for accuracy with air rifle than the cant angle being zero. With smallbore and fullbore, cant angle becomes more important than for air because of recoil considerations, but there you generally have a free rifle stock and so you have more adjustments to allow a better position than with air rifle.