Champions League Qualification Playoff

The Rooster

The FA to hold a Champions League qualification playoff between Liverpool and Everton (or maybe Bolton) on the same weekend as the Charity Shield in a neutral venue - in the event that Liverpool win the Champions League and don't come 4th in the league.

Could this be a runner?

UEFA have insisted that there is no way there will be an extra team allowed.

- It would be unfair on Everton not to allow them into the Champions League if they finish 4th.
- Equally it would be unfair on Liverpool not to be given a chance to defend the trophy.
- Spanish precedent says the CL winners should get the place.
- Soundings from UEFA have been favouring the 4th place league team.
- The FA have been very quiet on the issue, no doubt hoping that either Liverpool finish 4th or dont win in Turkey, so the issue goes away and they dont have to make a decision.
- The head of the FA is a lifelong ardent Liverpool supporter. It seems he doesnt have a vote in committee meetings, but no doubt has lots of influence. Will he favour his team? Or favour the other team just to prove he's impartial?
- Its a genuine 50/50 decision that could go either way.
- Surely everyone involved would prefer that it be settled on the football pitch rather on the whim of a few individuals.

A playoff would be the fairest way to decide it.
Comments?

KdjaCL

There is no precedent that says Champions of CL must defend their trophy only Real bitching and the Spanish FA allowing them.

Whoever comes 4th should get the place, the CL nowadays is not for defending champions. The idea is you win it after getting into it so for Pool to get into it they must come 4th.

Or another way of putting it , you earn your place by your league placing Pool have lost 13 games and won 16, everton have lost less and won more.


Kdjac

PHB

UEFA have insisted that there is no way there will be an extra team allowed.

http://skysports.planetfootball.com/list.asp?hlid=273681&CPID=5&CLID=&lid=15&title=Boost+for+Merseyside+duo&channel=Champions_League
They have walked this back a while ago actually.

Equally it

no it wouldn't be equally unfair. This is everton's chance to get into the CL, liverpool will prolly be back next year in 4th place, Everton wo't be without this cash boost.

Spanish precedent

is irrelevant

- Its a genuine 50/50 decision that could go either way.

It's really not. UEFA totally favour the 4th place team. Legality, to an extent, favours the 4th place team. Only Liverpool fans favour Liverpool
The FA are on the fence because they hope they won't have to solve the issue, and there is no reason to make this decision unless its required cause it could cause ruptures.
Liverpool have no support for it at this moment in time, and while the head of the FA is a liverpool fan, that might actually be abad thing, cause he may have to recuse himself for obvious reasons.

Playoffs would be completely.
It has been settled on a football pitch, over about 38 matches. Ever hear the phrase the league table never lies. It's cause you can't fluke it constantly, its just about consistantcy, something that Liverpool havn't had this year.
Playoff's would be unfair because what makes a great team is not by beating Juve, Chelsea, Leverkusen, its beating Crystal Palace on a crap december day, something Liverpool couldn't do whiel Everton could.
You only want playoff's because you know Liverpool have a much bettter chance of winning em

uberwolf

soundings from UEFA are that the fifth team may be allowed before closing the backdoor in favour of the holders on a more permanent basis.

For what it's worth I don't favour a playoff.

The whole point of qualification is that it is based, for either team, on their performances over the season in the respective competitions.

My take would be that as champions Liverpool would be 1st English seed, not 5th anyway. Leave Everton vs Utd/Arsenal to determine the last place!

Third_Echelon

uberwolf wrote:

My take would be that as champions Liverpool would be 1st English seed, not 5th anyway. Leave Everton vs Utd/Arsenal to determine the last place!

Liverpool as first seed? They will finish more than 30 points behind the league champions. This isn't the form of a first seed team to be honest.

Time to remove those red tinted glasses methinks :rolleyes:

~Rebel~

In fairness if they are to be allowed in, then it only makes sense they'd be 1st seed as they'd be qualifying as current Champions and not anything to do with the league.

uberwolf

What is seeding based on? and what is it a measure of?

My understanding is that it is a figure to position a club in terms of their relaitive strength in that competition over the past few years. Liverpool are the top ranked English side in Europe as Eirebhoy will testify. Therefore I'd conclude they were the English team most likely to win the trophy based on previous seasons form in that competition.

If they qualified UEFA would have them in the top group of seeds.

edit: linkee not even including last nights result.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method3/trank2005.html

Dont be at yourself

PHB wrote:

no it wouldn't be equally unfair. This is everton's chance to get into the CL, liverpool will prolly be back next year in 4th place, Everton wo't be without this cash boost.

Have you just contradicted yourself in the same sentence? You're saying that Everton must go through in order that they qualify the season after, while you also say that Liverpool will probably go throuh the season after (in 4th place, no less). The only way to resolve those two stances would be that you'd see Everton finishing 3rd (or, gasp, higher), and who would that be at the expense of?

is irrelevant

Why is the spanish precedent irrelevant? It would be the exact same situation, with the decision that faced the Spanish FA mirroring the one that might face the English FA come the end of May. When it comes to Europe, do you believe that the solution to an issue taken by the Spanish FA, and approved by UEFA, cannot be used as a basis for a solution to the exact same issue by the English FA? Sure, there are other solutions, but the spanish precedent is hardly irrelevant.

It's really not. UEFA totally favour the 4th place team. Legality, to an extent, favours the 4th place team. Only Liverpool fans favour Liverpool

UEFA have said that they'd prefer to see the 4th place team go through. Then, they said it would be unfair to Liverpool, should they win it, that they don't go through. UEFA have not given a clear stance on the issue, and are passing the buck to the English FA, as always.

Liverpool have no support for it at this moment in time, and while the head of the FA is a liverpool fan, that might actually be abad thing, cause he may have to recuse himself for obvious reasons.

They have no public support for it at this moment in time, but that's understandable. Nobody is going to commit either way unless this scenaria becomes reality. Nobody except the Premier League, who are in favour of the 4th CL spot remaining with the league. But then, they're probably a little biased, eh?

Playoffs would be completely.
It has been settled on a football pitch, over about 38 matches. Ever hear the phrase the league table never lies. It's cause you can't fluke it constantly, its just about consistantcy, something that Liverpool havn't had this year.
Playoff's would be unfair because what makes a great team is not by beating Juve, Chelsea, Leverkusen, its beating Crystal Palace on a crap december day, something Liverpool couldn't do whiel Everton could.
You only want playoff's because you know Liverpool have a much bettter chance of winning em

Right, so you believe that Liverpool have fluked their way to the final, and that it's an acievement undeserving of merit?

As for the league table showing the truth, does it show how many points we dropped on the back of European trips to Greece, Germany and Italy? If Liverpool hadn't been busy fluking their way all over Europe, do you really think they'd still be behind Everton?

I'm also curious as to why you'd give Liverpool a better chance of winning the play-off. Is it because Liverpool are a stronger team than an Everton side who are largely relying on pre-Christmas form, influenced no end by the departed Graveson? Or is it because Liverpool have a better chance of fluking it? If it's the former, what's the problem? The best team would go through. If it's the latter... remove the head from your arse.

Third_Echelon

~Rebel~ wrote:

In fairness if they are to be allowed in, then it only makes sense they'd be 1st seed as they'd be qualifying as current Champions and not anything to do with the league.

qualification for the champions league is based on the previous seasons league placing. Nothing to do with the previous CL winners. So its all about the league in fairness.

uberwolf

Third_Echelon wrote:

qualification for the champions league is based on the previous seasons league placing. Nothing to do with the previous CL winners. So its all about the league in fairness.

you are missing the point. This is a debate about a theoretical situation. In that situation the FA have wavered, refused to make a decision. So it's play off time. That is the winning of the CL has been accepted as sufficent to qualify them. In that situation Liverpool are first seeds for the competition.

If you're not entertaining that possibility then don't respond. If you have thoughts about that situation then post away. It's pointless going it won't happen - non issue.

IMO it's less likely that liverpool will win the CL than it is this situation occuring.

LegacyUser

This was my first post in the soccer forum, and I'll still stand by what I said then...

Thanks to Shamrok & Badabing for the sponsorship by the way...

bruachain wrote:

IMO whatever happens in the remainder of the CL, the fourth placed team in the Premiership should be awarded entry into next years competition, be it Everton, Bolton or Liverpool.

The Champions League, while it has been changed over the last few years from an out-and-out knockout cup competition to more of a mini-league/two-legged ties, still remains a cup competition. The aim of the competition is to bring together the top club teams in Europe to compete in the one tournament. The criteria for entry has always been based on the league positions of the home country, and AFAIK at one stage the winners were granted automatic entry.

The fundemental difference between league and cup football is the nature of the match. League championships are won over 8 months of games and 35-40 matches. Endurance and ability, coupled with strength and depth are what win league titles. Cup, on the other hand, is a competition designed to cause upsets. These tournaments are where skill & ability are replaced by spirit, heart and getting the tactics right on the day, and a favourable draw! It is for reasons such as this that Milwall were in last years FA Cup final, and why teams like Liverpool and PSV are in the semi-finals of the CL while the so-called top teir of teams like Man U, Arsenal, Real & Barcelona are watching the remainder of the competition from the comfort of their living rooms.

What I'm trying to say, IMO clubs should be given entry into the lucrative CL based on their league position; their result in the previous year's tournament is irrevelant. You earn the right to play in this competition by beating the likes of Crystal Palace/West Brom/Norwich (sorry fans!) away from home on murky Tuesday nights in November and December. While I wish Liverpool all the best, I disagree with any notion that says that Liverpool, or any other club for that matter, should be automatically entitled to entry into the CL if they win it the previous year. While they have had fantastic results this year (e.g. Juve ); if you cant get a result against the lower teams every Saturday week-in, week-out (e.g. Palace last Sat), then you really have nothing to complain about.

Thanks for listening...!

KdjaCL

NekkidBibleMan wrote:

As for the league table showing the truth, does it show how many points we dropped on the back of European trips to Greece, Germany and Italy? If Liverpool hadn't been busy fluking their way all over Europe, do you really think they'd still be behind Everton?

Oh ffs thats like whinging about playing too many games, stop winning games then. Are liverpool the 1st team to suffer bad results after CL games, no i dont think so, are they the 1st to win Cl games but still be rank in teh PL, yes they would be.

Cup teams are good at playing cup games, but play 38 in a season and lose 13 you do not deserve to finish 4th and qualify for CL.

kdjac

TheMonster

Its UEFAs problem - they do not have a mechanism for the holders to be automatically qualify,in line with every other major competion(World Cup, Euro Champs,UEFA cup).

The PL should put the top 4 forward and if that were not to include the previous winners then it is up to UEFA to find a way to include them.

Spanish precedence has no relevance as the rules state that the individual countries decide - UEFA had no bearing on it. Same was as different rules apply in different countries.

BTW Is there any non Liverpool fans that think Liverpool if it occurs should be allowed replace Everton, doubt it.

KdjaCL

TheMonster wrote:

Its UEFAs problem - they do not have a mechanism for the holders to be automatically qualify,in line with every other major competion(World Cup, Euro Champs,UEFA cup).

The precedence is winners DONT qualify.

France were the last team to qualify as holders for anything hence Brazil playing qualifiers for WC2006 and next year Greece be playing qualifiers for Euros.

kdjac

Third_Echelon

uberwolf wrote:

you are missing the point. This is a debate about a theoretical situation. In that situation the FA have wavered, refused to make a decision. So it's play off time. That is the winning of the CL has been accepted as sufficent to qualify them. In that situation Liverpool are first seeds for the competition.

I'm not missing the point to be fair. The questions was 'would it be fair?'. I don't think it would be and therefore my point is very valid. Never mind your imaginary situations. You finish 5th. You dont get in. Pool's european seeding wouldn't really matter then.

uberwolf wrote:

If you're not entertaining that possibility then don't respond. If you have thoughts about that situation then post away. It's pointless going it won't happen - non issue.

I am posting my thoughts on the situation. You're just not accepting them. My viewpoint is that this 'imaginary situation' shouldn't even occur.

BaZmO*

The Rooster wrote:

A playoff would be the fairest way to decide it.

No it wouldn't.

The fairest way to decide who goes through to next years CL would be for the FA to take out their rule book and see what criteria they set out for qualification and they will see that the 4th place team goes through. End of!!!

Then, if the FA have any sense they would ammend the rule book for next year to state that "if" a team wins the CL and doesn't finish within the first 4 teams the 4th place team has to forfeit their place so that the winners can defend their title. That way every team knows what they are getting themselves into at the beginning of each season.

All this does raise an interesting question though that I've asked in another thread. If the FA let Liverpool take Everton's place does that mean that they go into the competition as a 4th place team? If so would that mean they would have to qualify? Or would they get bumped up to 2nd meaning that the second place team would get demoted to 3rd and have to go into the qualifiers?

B.

Third_Echelon

BaZmO* wrote:

All this does raise an interesting question though that I've asked in another thread. If the FA let Liverpool take Everton's place does that mean that they go into the competition as a 4th place team? If so would that mean they would have to qualify? Or would they get bumped up to 2nd meaning that the second place team would get demoted to 3rd and have to go into the qualifiers?

B.

Very good point. I don't see Man Utd or Arsenal rolling over and giving an automatic qualification spot to liverpool just because they are CL winners and have a seeding etc that was mentioned earlier.

Just because its little old Everton, people think they can be pushed about. The FA wouldn't even dare mention such a thing to Man Utd. Utd would have lawyers all over them like flies on sh1t.

uberwolf

magnanimously I've also said it wouldn't be fair. I completely agree it should be decided on the football field this year.

I'd take winning it this year and not qualifying next year very firmly, squarely on the chin

My take on CL qualification based on the league is that it is the most open mechanism available to determine which teams are the strongest in the land and therefore the most likely to bring the trophy back to that league. Winning the trophy is a better judge of quality than coming 4th in the league.

The 'and therefore' clause is obviously up for debate.

The European Cup was created to decide the best team in Europe. It was expanded to include more teams - but the premise was the same, an association sends its strongest representatives to challenge.

The rules should be in place already. Rendering our discussions moot. But they're not.

opr

BaZmO* wrote:

No it wouldn't.

The fairest way to decide who goes through to next years CL would be for the FA to take out their rule book and see what criteria they set out for qualification and they will see that the 4th place team goes through. End of!!!

B.

Can you provide a link with this set of rules please ?

Because its not " END OF " the rules make provisions for this . Where is the rules that states if you finish 4th you get a champions league spot ?

This is what the rules actually state.

If an English team wins the Champions League and do not finish in the top four, The FA can request that this team qualify automatically for the Champions League, but the fourth-placed team in the Premiership is entered into the UEFA Cup.

Rules

Nuttzz

The champions league should be for champions, not this bs of "we came fourth", Leage champions and defending cup winners. Nowadays 4th seems to be the new 1st

Third_Echelon

From the link opr provided:
http://www.thefa.com/TheFA/NewsFromTheFA/Postings/2005/02/EuropeanQualification.htm

THE FA wrote:

If an English team wins the Champions League and do not finish in the top four, The FA can request that this team qualify automatically for the Champions League, but the fourth-placed team in the Premiership is entered into the UEFA Cup

This would suggest that the winners of the CL would get the second automatic spot (which is currently awarded to 2nd place) and the teams that finish 2nd and 3rd in the premier league would go into the qualifying round, with the 4th place team going into the UEFA cup.

So if liverpool win the CL and finish 5th. Man Utd and Arsenal would go into the qualifying round? There's going to be war over that from the Arsenal and Man Utd camps in fairness.....

But i think the important thing to remember is that this is at the request of the FA! They could ignore the above clause to keep man utd and arsenal 'happy'.

Third_Echelon

Also interesting to note about the UEFA Cup is that the winners if they do not qualify through the league or cup are entered into the next UEFA cup to defend their title:

THE FA wrote:

If an English team wins the UEFA Cup and qualifies for the Champions League by their Premiership placing, then they qualify for the Champions League.

If they win the UEFA Cup and qualify for the UEFA Cup through the Premiership or the cup competitions, then England does not gain an extra place.

If they have not qualified for Europe through the Premiership or the cup competitions, then they qualify for the UEFA Cup as an extra team.

....also from link in last post

MisterAnarchy

Everto dont deserve Champions league football to be honest.
They are a very poor footballing team.
The winner of the Champions League should be allowed to play at all costs.
Being a Man U fan if Liverpool win the Champions League then they deserve to qualify for next seasons Champions league .
Imagine if Tiger Woods won the US Masters but only finished 5th on the Order of Merit yet wasnt invited to the following Masters...

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

LegacyUser

TBH with all the furore over the possibility of this scenario arising, after cheering Liverpool on last night, I'm beginning to hope that winners of tonights tie win the f*cking competition, so that I dont hear any more pointless arguing.

If the shoe was on the other foot and Everton were in the CL final, whereas Liverpool were ahead of them in the league, there would be blue murder if the FA entered Everton on the basis they won the CL, but failed to qualify in the domestic league!

uberwolf

bruachain wrote:

so that I dont hear any more pointless arguing.

welcome to this forum. All that is talked about are matters that we have no say in, principally involving matters beyond our countries borders.

But matters we all have a passion for. You're right this may all be rendered moot by Liverpool losing in Istanbul and securing 4th place in the league.

And by next season the rules will be tightened. Meantime if Liverpool win and Everton secure 4th the rules state a decision has to be taken. The teams have to be decided between. The rules say that. So it is not moot, pointless.

Pigman II

ziggy67 wrote:

Does anybody see the irony that they are arguing that a team who finishes 4th in a league should get in at the expense of the winners of the CHAMPIONS league?

I don't think it's ironic in the slightest. In fact I think Everton getting the place over Liverpool would be entirely in keeping with the misleading moniker of the tournament.

When you consider the 'Champions League' usually contains a majority of teams who haven't even won their domestic championship to qualify then it would seem wholly suitable (and a natural extension of this process) to omit the Champion of 'champions' themselves.

~Rebel~

Third_Echelon wrote:

qualification for the champions league is based on the previous seasons league placing. Nothing to do with the previous CL winners. So its all about the league in fairness.

My point had nothing to do with that, im just saying in the event that liverpool were allowed in, then they wouldn't be the 4th team from england they'd be seeded 1st as champions as that is how they'd be entering, nothing to do with league placing as thats not how they'd be qualifying. weither its right or wrong that they'd be allowed to qualify isn't wht i was talking about.

LegacyUser

Lets have a vote on it

A:) IN the event of Liverpool winning the CL, and finishing outside the top four in the PL, should they be entitled to entry in next seasons competition?
B:) Everton retain 4th place and therefore assume entry into next seasons CL based on domestic league positions.

Can some one set it up?

Dont be at yourself

KdjaC wrote:

Originally Posted by NekkidBibleMan
As for the league table showing the truth, does it show how many points we dropped on the back of European trips to Greece, Germany and Italy? If Liverpool hadn't been busy fluking their way all over Europe, do you really think they'd still be behind Everton?

Oh ffs thats like whinging about playing too many games, stop winning games then. Are liverpool the 1st team to suffer bad results after CL games, no i dont think so, are they the 1st to win Cl games but still be rank in teh PL, yes they would be.

PHB's point was that the league table, and only the league table, is the measure by which you judge the quality of the team. I am arguing that, as the league doesn't take into account external factors (like, two long cup runs), you can't say Everton are a more deserving team of the CL spot.

I fully accept that Liverpool's league form has been well short of what is expected from a Champion's League standard team, but I don't accept at all that league form should be the only way in which a team's quality is measured.

At the end of the day, it's in everybody's interests to see the best teams in the Champions League and, looking at the season as a whole, Liverpool would appear to be the better team.

LegacyUser

Here's a poll, let me hear the voices of the proles...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=252506

The Rooster

PHB wrote:

what makes a great team is not by beating Juve, Chelsea, Leverkusen, its beating Crystal Palace on a crap december day

That's really very funny

Interesting that Johansson has said there is a possibility of 5 teams for next year. I don't believe him though - if they didnt change the rule for Spain and Zaragoza, I can't see them changing them for England and Everton/Liverpool.

As for the question if Liverpool did get a place and Everton did not, I believe that Liverpool would still be required to play in the qualifying round, but if they qualified for the group stages then they would be ranked number 1 seeds. The defending champions have always been ranked number 1, regardless of their co-efficient. Which is interesting in itself, i.e. they do in certain aspects make a special case for the champions.

I firmly believe that the decision is still 50/50 despite what some "neutrals" above think. Any Everton fans out there? If it was your decision, would you agree to a playoff or would you hold out and hope the FA chose you ahead of Liverpool?

PHB

Why is the spanish precedent irrelevant? It would be the exact same situation, with the decision that faced the Spanish FA mirroring the one that might face the English FA come the end of May. When it comes to Europe, do you believe that the solution to an issue taken by the Spanish FA, and approved by UEFA, cannot be used as a basis for a solution to the exact same issue by the English FA? Sure, there are other solutions, but the spanish precedent is hardly irrelevant.

Because it's the Spanish FA. It has absolutly no relevance to the English FA. It would be like copying a legal precedent in a murder case from Spanish courts to English courts. It is entirely irrelevent.

UEFA have said that they'd prefer to see the 4th place team go through. Then, they said it would be unfair to Liverpool, should they win it, that they don't go through. UEFA have not given a clear stance on the issue, and are passing the buck to the English FA, as always.

No they have given a clear stance. They have said they would prefer the 4th palce team to go through. They also said it would be regrettable if liverpool won and weren't in it, but at no point have they said they would prefer Liverpool to the 4th place team.

Right, so you believe that Liverpool have fluked their way to the final, and that it's an acievement undeserving of merit?

No I never said that. You just assumed.
I think its deserving of merit, some sort of cup or something might be an idea. Yeh some sort of cup. Maybe silver, some celebration or something.

I'm also curious as to why you'd give Liverpool a better chance of winning the play-off. Is it because Liverpool are a stronger team than an Everton side who are largely relying on pre-Christmas form, influenced no end by the departed Graveson? Or is it because Liverpool have a better chance of fluking it? If it's the former, what's the problem? The best team would go through. If it's the latter... remove the head from your arse.

Everton are living on pre-Chirstmas form.
Liverpool havn't been able to match that form.
Liverpool are a better team on the night I think than Everton. That said I personally believe that Man Utd are a better team than say Arsenal, and have beaten them on the night on two occasions. Yet Arsenal are ahead of them right?
So by this sorta logic, United should get the automatics since we beat Arsenal in the head to heads. Thats not how it works. The league table is a better reflection on the whole than a cup table, since cup's have the element of chance to who you play, i.e. you might avoid playing the best team till the end or something, while in a league you play every team equally.
To highlight the point, which has a better chance of happening.
Everton winning the FA Cup?
Everton winning the Premiership.

Cup run = impressive
League run = much much more impressive.
Thats why Chelsea are a better team than Liverpool in most people's eyes. Despite the fact that Liverpool just beat them.

At the end of the day, it's in everybody's interests to see the best teams in the Champions League and, looking at the season as a whole, Liverpool would appear to be the better team.

Why?
Actually its not in everyone's interest to the see the best teams in the CL. Ask Fulham who'd they rather have in, Everton or Liverpool and they'd say everton because it allows littler clubs to break in.

Liverpool have played Everton twice, lost once won once.
There is nothing there.
In a head to head decision between Everton and Liverpool, the only meter we have is the league.
Everton never had the chance to play in Europe to beat Leverkusen or Chelsea or Juve. Who are you to say they wouldn't?
There is only one measure of who is the better team between Liverpool and Everton, and Everton have won it, whether you like it or not.

I fully accept that Liverpool's league form has been well short of what is expected from a Champion's League standard team, but I don't accept at all that league form should be the only way in which a team's quality is measured.

Give me another way to decide.
Everton weren't in the CL this year. They didn't have the chance to show off like Liverpool did. Does a semi final place in the CL not warrent similar levels of respect?
If Liverpool can get to the semi final of the CL and Man Utd couldn't does that make Liverpool a better team? More deserving of being there next year? What about Arsenal? Same thing applies.

Simple fact of the matter is Liverpool couldn't cut it in the league this year, they have nobody to blame but themselves.

p.s. If this was a choice between United and Liverpool, Liverpool wouldn't have a chance. It is just the big boys pushing around the little clubs.

BaZmO*

PHB wrote:

The league table is a better reflection on the whole than a cup table, since cup's have the element of chance to who you play, i.e. you might avoid playing the best team till the end or something, while in a league you play every team equally.

Exactly.

Look at the FA Cup last year. Are Millwall a better team than Arsenal? No!!! They just had a good cup run.

B.

Third_Echelon

NekkidBibleMan wrote:

PHB's point was that the league table, and only the league table, is the measure by which you judge the quality of the team. I am arguing that, as the league doesn't take into account external factors (like, two long cup runs), you can't say Everton are a more deserving team of the CL spot.

Correct it doesn't take into account cup competitions. Every team has to deal with this. If you want to compete on all fronts then you better have the squad to cope. Going by your arguments here you are suggesting that Liverpool don't have the squad for this. That should have no concern on Everton if liverpool cannot facilitate competing in more than 3 competitions. Should we really care if liverpool cant do this?

There can be no grey areas when deciding on qualification. How do you suggest that 'external factors' should be included into the league system to accomodate cup runs and unjust FA/UEFA decisions, just because liverpool finish outside the required position?

1 point for a loss after every league defeat after a CL midweek game? That sounds about fair....

Its based on 38 games over a 10 month period. And if they get the 4th spot then YES THEY DO DESERVE THE SPOT!

Going by your logic, then Arsenal and Man Utd are no more deserving of a CL spot than Everton. Everton (if they finish 4th) have done what it takes to qualify for the champions league and they have EARNED the right to be there. They have shown a consistent form over periods of the season to keep them in 4th or higher since September and if that isn't deserved of CL qualification, then I don't know what is.

NekkidBibleMan wrote:

I fully accept that Liverpool's league form has been well short of what is expected from a Champion's League standard team, but I don't accept at all that league form should be the only way in which a team's quality is measured.

It is. Get over it.

NekkidBibleMan wrote:

At the end of the day, it's in everybody's interests to see the best teams in the Champions League and, looking at the season as a whole, Liverpool would appear to be the better team.

Everybody's best interest? My @rse! Liverpool's best interests you mean... I've never heard such rubbish in all my life....