Liverpool -v- Everton next season's CL places

LegacyUser

Alright...here's the question.

A - In the event of Liverpool winning the CL, and finishing outside the top four in the PL, should they be entitled to entry in next seasons competition?

Vote Yes

B - Should Everton retain 4th place, they should therefore assume entry into next seasons CL based on domestic league positions.

Vote No

Keano_sli

Wow 100% of people agree with me, Oh wait no I am just the only one who has voted yet!!

~Rebel~

Keano_sli wrote:

Wow 100% of people agree with me, Oh wait no I am just the only one who has voted yet!!

sorry not anymore. to be honest i said liverpool but dont agree with the actual option i voted for (everton being relegated to uefa cup). both should get in, everton as domestic qualifier, liverpool as champions irrelevent of country they're representing. should just be a mechanism for an extra team.
sigh, stupid uefa making it so very needlessly complicated, why didn't they get it sorted after the real incident in 2000?

mr_angry

This poll is desperately missing an "Atari Jaguar" option.

Perhaps you missed last week's poll on the exact same subject. I suggest using the "search" feature sometime.

LegacyUser

mr_angry wrote:

Perhaps you missed last week's poll on the exact same subject. I suggest using the "search" feature sometime.

Is is this poll.?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=245697

~Rebel~

to be honest there have been loads of threads on this general topic, this being another poll on it
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=250791

Third_Echelon

mr_angry wrote:

This poll is desperately missing an "Atari Jaguar" option.

Perhaps you missed last week's poll on the exact same subject. I suggest using the "search" feature sometime.

That poll was slightly different...

The question was which was better? Win CL or Fin 4th.

LegacyUser

I'm not voting because I don't want Everton banished if they got fourth but it is only natural for Liverpool to defend their trophy if they win it.

Serbian

Personally I think that the cup champions should be there to defend it. However, I think that it would be unfair on Everton if they were to finish 4th, that they would have to put up with UEFA cup football next season.

If you had asked anyone on day one of the season: If Everton finish 4th, will they be playing in the Champions League next season and the answer would have been a unanimous yes.

Maybe it was the short-sightedness of the English FA, or maybe people just assumed that if you were good enough to win the Champions League, you would be good enough to finish in the top 4 in the league, but without a precedent of a team finishing outside the top 4 but still qualifying for the Champions League, there is no chance for Liverpool going back in next season should they defeat PSV / Milan in the final.

The unfortunate part of this for Liverpool, and for any other team who may find themselves in a similar situation, this season will set the precedent, so it's unlikely to change.

super_furry

Honestly, I think that IF (and that's a huge IF) Liverpool win there should (and possibly will) be an exception made and both Liverpool and Everton will enter next season's competition. Johansson has already hinted at this and honestly, I can't see how you can have a Champions League, without The Champions.

fade2black

I think it's madness that a team that finishes fourth in their domestic league should be allowed anywhere near a champions league competition to be honest. If Liverpool win the Champions league then without a doubt they should be there the next season to defend it.

mayordenis

well in fairness if liverpool win then they are champion if everton come 4th are they champions of anything?

Memnoch

I still think we should wait on this debate until AFTER liverpool win the league, then there will be pleanty of time to debate the issue

mike65

I'll say it again - Everton and Liverpool should have a two legged play off tie before the 3rd qualification round is drawn. The winner goes in, the looser enters UEFA Draw.

Mike.

Third_Echelon

mike65 wrote:

I'll say it again - Everton and Liverpool should have a two legged play off tie before the 3rd qualification round is drawn. The winner goes in, the looser enters UEFA Draw.

Mike.

According to the FA guidelines as I pointed out in this post ->
Linky in this thread -> Linky, if the CL winners are even considered for entry, they get an automatic qualification spot.

This would mean that the 2nd place team (Arsenal) in the league would lose their direct entry spot and would have to enter a qualifying round along with the 3rd place team (Man Utd) with the 4th place team (Everton) going into the UEFA cup.

Scenario:
So should there be a playoff between 3rd (Man Utd) and 4th (Everton) for the last qualifying spot with the loser going into the UEFA cup?

Because this is basically what is being asked of Everton fans. What would man utd fans think of this.

Now that would be an interesting poll????

I don't think Man Utd would allow that to happen. Do you?

uberwolf

IMO - Everton should have entry. And UEFA should offer Liverpool the spot - their absence devalues the contest should they win it.

And teh rules should be clarified. They obviously thought of the situation in the past, why they hadn't prescribed for it escapes me.

Drag00n79

I agree with Überwolf. The winners of the Champions League should gain entry the following season and that country should then have an extra place in the Champions League that season. I think Everton deserve to qualify if they finish 4th.

Lex Luthor

fade2black wrote:

I think it's madness that a team that finishes fourth in their domestic league should be allowed anywhere near a champions league competition to be honest. If Liverpool win the Champions league then without a doubt they should be there the next season to defend it.

I have to agree here.....I think that anything outside the top 2 should be playing UEFA cup, but the money men don't see it that way.
Nevertheless, in any cup competition, the winner should always be invited back to defend the trophy..
But if the 4th place team is entitled to a CL play-off place, then they should get that too.
UEFA should make provisions for this even though it won't happen that often.

p.pete

Well apparently UEFA don't think that Liverpools absence would devalue the competition, which is a might unfortunate as a Liverpool fan. I think it's fair enough that the Uefa coefficients give 4, 3 or however many places to each country but the place going to the competition winner should be independant of this.

At the moment however, UEFA aren't offering a direct place to the winners - similar to the World Cup so it seems to be their current fashion on how to run things but I don't agree on it as being a good idea.

Serbian

p.pete wrote:

The place going to the competition winner should be independant of this.

As far as I know, the winner of the Champions League has never failed to qualify in following season before. This means that it has never been a requirement to hold a specific place for the champion. If they were to decide that the champion must re-enter the competition the following season, that would mean if a situation arose (like is possible with Liverpool) where the champion does not qualify, they would need to take a place from somewhere to award it to the defending champion. Do you think any other country in Europe would be happy to surrender their Champions League place to accommodate the champions?

super_furry

Serbian wrote:

As far as I know, the winner of the Champions League has never failed to qualify in following season before. This means that it has never been a requirement to hold a specific place for the champion. If they were to decide that the champion must re-enter the competition the following season, that would mean if a situation arose (like is possible with Liverpool) where the champion does not qualify, they would need to take a place from somewhere to award it to the defending champion. Do you think any other country in Europe would be happy to surrender their Champions League place to accommodate the champions?

Yes, Spain. In 2000 Real Madrid won the Champions League but finished in fifth place with Real Zaragoza in fourth. The decision was taken to send Real Zaragoza into the UEFA Cup and Madrid took their place in the Champions League. So, as you can see, there's a precedent.

Serbian

super_furry wrote:

Yes, Spain. In 2000 Real Madrid won the Champions League but finished in fifth place with Real Zaragoza in fourth. The decision was taken to send Real Zaragoza into the UEFA Cup and Madrid took their place in the Champions League. So, as you can see, there's a precedent.

That decision was taken by the Spanish FA not by UEFA. There's no precedent in England.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

case n basket

Ideally both, but I'm leaning towards Liverpool if forced to choose. I don't think 4th place finishers should get entrance to the CL in the first place.

TheMonster

Looks like the FA will see sense

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/4515401.stm

The Football Association is set to decide on Thursday who will take the final Champions League spot for next season if Liverpool win the tournament.
If the Reds beat AC Milan in the final and finish behind Everton in the league the FA would have the final decision.

Uefa has said it would not allow five English clubs to take part but will look into changing the rule in future.

Everton are currently lying in fourth place in the Premiership, three points ahead of Liverpol in the table.

The FA's professional game board is meeting at Soho Square to finalise their position if Liverpool are crowned European champions.

Uefa has stated it would not allow Rafael Benitez's team to automatically enter next season's Champions League as holders.

"You cannot change the rule at this late stage of the season," insisted Uefa spokesman William Gaillard.

"For future seasons, say from 2006-2007, the executive committee may look to change the rule. But for next season the rule stays at it is.

"The English Premiership has four places and it would be unfair to tell another national association that they have lost one of theirs."

Washout

abd hopefully the sense is the place going the fourth place

PHB

The fact that Liverpool have come 4th and are now in the final should show people why you should allow all these non champion teams into compo.
Its not about last years champions of europe, its about next years. The best way to ensure that the best teams in europe of this year are in the compo is to give 4 places to italy spain and england

20 Times 20 Times

In fairness i think milan wil beat liverpool so really it aint going to come to that , but in the event that is does then everton came 4th liverpool uefa cup please

my 2 cent

uberwolf

Would LFC walk teh UEFA cup next season?

WhiteWashMan

fade2black wrote:

I think it's madness that a team that finishes fourth in their domestic league should be allowed anywhere near a champions league competition to be honest. If Liverpool win the Champions league then without a doubt they should be there the next season to defend it.

what place did liverpool come to get into the champions league out of interest?

20 Times 20 Times

without stevie gearad ?

LFCFan

Why are we even debating this. Newcastle will draw with Everton on Saturday and we'll do the double over Arsenal on Sunday, putting Liverpool 1 point behind. Arsenal will then beat Everton the following Wednesday which is their game in hand. That leaves Liverpool 1 point behind, same games played. Then on the final day, we'll beat Villa at Anfield while Bolton and Everton draw. We get 4th spot on 61 points, Everton on 60

20 Times 20 Times

LFCFan wrote:

Why are we even debating this. Newcastle will draw with Everton on Saturday and we'll do the double over Arsenal on Sunday, putting Liverpool 1 point behind. Arsenal will then beat Everton the following Wednesday which is their game in hand. That leaves Liverpool 1 point behind, same games played. Then on the final day, we'll beat Villa at Anfield while Bolton and Everton draw. We get 4th spot on 61 points, Everton on 60

dream world easy to say m8
have liverpool not lost every domestic game pld after the champions league this season ?

Washout

Sarge wrote:

In fairness i think milan wil beat liverpool so really it aint going to come to that , but in the event that is does then everton came 4th liverpool uefa cup please

my 2 cent

We said Liverpool wouldnt beat Juventus, we then said Liverpool wouldnt beat Chelsea but yet here we are with them in the final against Milan.

Watching Milan last night didnt give me any confidence to say that Milan will be walking out of Istanbul champs.

If liverpool play with the same style and passion that they did against chelsea tthen I cant see Milan coping. with breaking down the pool tight defence.

I pray for a Milan victory to end this CL qualification dibacle thats now been going on for fair too long. it should have been nailed on the head when t he same situation arised in Spain.

now UEFA are saying they will change the laws or at least make current rules a lot clearer but not before 2006/2007

LFCFan

Sarge wrote:

dream world easy to say m8
have liverpool not lost every domestic game pld after the champions league this season ?

they haven't lost them all. Plus, our game on Sunday is against Arsenal and we are due a win in Highbury and we'll be up for it. No distraction this time and still on confidence high after reaching the final. Arsenal won't know what hit them. We'll stun them and then they'll go out and hammer Everton in retaliation

Jimboo_Jones

To be honest, having the 2nd, 3rd and 4th teams in the 'champions' league is a mockery. If they change the rules to allow the winners of the cup and the top four of the league to gain entry the year after that will just lead to countries sending five teams anyway (say if the winner of their league wins the cup - they will then give their 5th place team a place)

eirebhoy

Liverpool knew at the start of the year the would have to finish in the top 4 of the premiership to qualify for the CL.
Brazil knew they would have to finish in the top 4/5 of their South American league to qualify for the world cup.
Greece know they will have to finish in the top 2 in the next Euro's qualifying to make it to Euro 2008.

I don't see how a team has to defend its title. Porto getting knocked out didn't make a blind bit of difference to anyone.

uberwolf

if you cann't defend the trophy why should you return it?


/which of course ignores the point that if liverpool win they get to keep the cup.

The Rooster

eirebhoy wrote:

Liverpool knew at the start of the year the would have to finish in the top 4 of the premiership to qualify for the CL.

That's not true Eirebhoy.
Every single champion of the European Cup/Champions League have been allowed to defend their trophy (unless they were banned for some other reason). The only time it has happened since the CL started that a team won the CL and didnt qualify through their league placing, the CL champions did qualify.

As for the United fan who maintains that the Spanish precedent has no relevance. That's not true. The legal term is "persuasive precedent". i.e. the English FA are free to make their own decision but account should be taken of the Spanish case and the reasons for their decision. So it definitely has some relevane, the degree of relevance is up to the FA.

eirebhoy

The Rooster wrote:

That's not true Eirebhoy.
Every single champion of the European Cup/Champions League have been allowed to defend their trophy (unless they were banned for some other reason). The only time it has happened since the CL started that a team won the CL and didnt qualify through their league placing, the CL champions did qualify.

But there was no rule down saying if you win the CL you qualify for it automatically. I actually doubt Greece will qualify for Euro 2008. So be it.

fade2black

Well it's confirmed - we won't be seeing Liverpool in next year's champions league

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

galwaydude

we still have a few games yet to catch everton but i doubt.Anyways liverpool are reported to have made 25+ million from the champs league so who cares.
Cant see evrton doing anything in the champs league but fair play if they get their.

yop

Cant see evrton doing anything in the champs league but fair play if they get their.

Ah well Porto and liverpool have proven that small teams can make it

smemon

yop wrote:

Ah well Porto and liverpool have proven that small teams can make it

lol hey, porto aren't a small team!

nlgbbbblth

simple solution

if Liverpool win the Champions League and Everton finish 4th - then let both teams into the competition next year. Just don't let the third place team in - assuming its Man Utd - because of their arrogant refusal to play in the FA Cup in 2000.

Take it

nlgbbbblth wrote:

simple solution

if Liverpool win the Champions League and Everton finish 4th - then let both teams into the competition next year. Just don't let the third place team in - assuming its Man Utd - because of their arrogant refusal to play in the FA Cup in 2000.

lol thats quality

is it true that years ago, everton won some sort of european cup they kicked some team out that was above them in the league to let everton defend the cup? just heard that and trying to research it and see if its true!

Third_Echelon

Take it wrote:

lol thats quality

is it true that years ago, everton won some sort of european cup they kicked some team out that was above them in the league to let everton defend the cup? just heard that and trying to research it and see if its true!

Everton won the Cup Winners Cup in 1985. You have to win a domestic cup to qualify for that again. As far as i know the winners were allowed to re-enter the next season in the UEFA cup I think, but that never got to happen....

The case you are talking about is with the UEFA Cup back in the early 80's. At that time it was known as the Intercity Fairs Cup. I think it was being renamed to the UEFA Cup that season, or it had just happened. Something like that anyway... The rules from the old intercity fairs cup stated that only one team from any city may enter.

Liverpool and Everton finished in the qualifying spots for the cup. Liverpool finished above Everton, so because they were both from the same city and liverpool finished higher, liverpool were qualified for the cup and Everton weren't allowed in. Stoke City I think it was, finished a place behind Everton (outside of the qualifying spots) and they were give the UEFA cup spot.

Everton, and rightly so, deemed this to be unfair and the rule shouldn't apply for the new UEFA cup. They appealed the ruling and won and got their rightful spot back.....

Bowser

Since The FA confirmed that 4th place would get the Champions League spot, check this out:

Google this:
http://www.thefa.com/TheFA/ContactUs/Postings/2004/03/European_Places.htm

(it needs to be the full link so click on th elink then copy and paste the url into google.)

and click on the googles Cached htm page. It refers to last year stating that if Arsenal or Chelsea won the Champions League but didnt finish in the automatic qualification position, they would still be allowed to play at the expense of the 4th place team!!

fade2black

Also check these out:

http://football.guardian.co.uk/News_Story/0,1563,1478164,00.html

http://football.guardian.co.uk/News_Story/0,1563,1478328,00.html

super_furry

The FA have dug themselves into a major hole here -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/europe/4522235.stm

www.football365.com/news/story_151630.shtml

http://www.rte.ie/sport/2005/0506/championsleague.html