the whats wrong with man united thread..

wheres me jumpa

next year will be a very tough year for chelsea.

retaining the trophy is very hard. everybody wanted them to win this year and were so happy for them simply because everyone is sick of united and arsenal dominating. next year teams will be out to beat chelsea.

im not taking anything away from them but i felt at times they had it very easy this year. there will be no easy games next year with mourinho coming under more presessure, we shall see how nice a guy he is then.

i personally predict a mourinho explosion next year, similar to the "i would love it if we beat them" incident.

jumpa

Jivin Turkey

The Muppet wrote:

I,m not convinced that the current Chelsea Squad can dominate the premiership for the next decade. I have yet to see them blow a team away like Arsenal or United did when they are at their best.

In all fairness this Chelsea squad is definately the best the premiership has ever seen in terms of the number of quality players. So many of their subs would walk into any premiership side.

And while I dont think the first XI is the best ever, the record amount of league points they are on course to amass would have a good argument against me. And while people might think the standard this year has been poor, for the first time ever there were 4 teams in the knock out stages of the CL, and also United this year (in third) are on course to eclipse the record amount of points ever achieved by a second placed side.

As regards blowing teams away, there was a period when United turned up the heat by beating Arsenal that Chelsea responded by winning seven and drawing two out of nine. They scored four goals in six of those seven wins. If that isnt blowing teams away I dont know what is. And also note the timing of the run, thats what won them the league.

The Muppet wrote:

Chelsea's success this season has been built on defence not attack and it has worked for them but as we saw this week when they are missing one or two key players they look decidedly ordinary and do not have the depth of squad to cope with that.

Built on defense yes. But they still have the second best attack in the league, and by a long way. Only nine goals less than Arsenal.

And taking nothing away from Liverpools performance midweek, Chelsea were missing four key players, not one or two. Duff, Robben, Ferreira, Bridge are their entire first choice wide man. Any team is going to struggle when missing all their first choice width.

The fact that these have been missing so much yet Chelsea are still doing so well is surely testament to their "depth of squad".

The Muppet wrote:

Of course they have the resources to rectify that but it's interesting that the players they have been linked to for this summer are defenders [Cole Ferdinand] and not forwards. It remains to be seen who they buy but if the indications so far are anything to go by I can see them being very hard to beat but lacking up front.

I dont think they have been linked with Ferdinand. It was a chance meeting I thought. They have however been strongly linked with Adriano and Joaquin, two very attack minded players, not to mention Steven Gerrard.

Obviously next year is going to be tougher for them, and it will be a measure of how good they are, but United will have to raise their standards considerably to challenge them. Which will involve making some decisions which put pressure on senior members of the side, because as it stands I can only see the gap between the two widening.

jesus_thats_gre

You are assuming that Chelsea are not going to strenghten there squad this summer also. If they get 2 or 3 of the players they are rumoured to be after then they will be even stronger next season. They will continue tweaking their squad every summer for the next few years while essentially keeping the spine of the team unchanged -

Cech
Terry
Makelele
Lampard

They just need a 20 a season goal scorer of Henry's or Ruud's standard and they will be unstoppable.

PHB

Well heres what I think will be Chelsea's problems next year:

Makelele is getting on a bit, and I think that may begin to weigh in on who I consider chelsea's most important player.
Their squad depth this year has been absolutely immense, but I think it won't be next year.
Imagine they buy their top 4 apparent signinings,
Cole
Gerrard/Alonson
Joaoquin/Vicente
Adriano

Imagine they get those, I think the following players will leave:
Cudicini(Obvious)
Bridge(Second choice to Cole, I doubt it)
Gallas(Who is not happy not playing CB, with Carvalho ahead of him)
Huth(Who doesnt want to be a bit part player)
Smertin(Might stay, not sure)
Geremi(Has to be leaving)
Parker(Definally leaving, would be stupid not to, unless MOurinho can convince him he is the next Makelele)
Kezman(Seems to be on his way no matter what)
Gudjohnson/Drogba(I think one of these could leave if Adriano is signed)
Duff/J Cole/Robben(I think one of these will leave if Joaoquin/Vicente is signed, possibly the latter after the stories we've heard)


I think they have had an amazing squad depth this yaer, despite avoiding major injuries to the spine, but have throughly deserved the win.
I don't think they can manage a squad this big next year

Big Ears

PHB wrote:

p.s.England:
Rio Ferdinand
Gabriel Heinze
Ruud Van Nist

Europe:
Ruud Van Nist

Terry is better than Ferdinand , Heinze for this season has been the best in England . Van Nistelrooy doesn't even come close in Europe and in the Premiership Henry is much better .

and Don't claim Henry is a forward and Nistelrooy is a striker , both of their jobs is to score goals .

Or that Terry is a different type of centre back to Ferdinand , that may be so but they're both centre backs .

PHB

Van Nistelrooy doesn't even come close in Europe

Really?
Very odd statement, I'd like you to look at this.

Top Scorers. Champions League 2004/2005

Ruud van Nistelrooij 8
Adriano 7
Roy Makaay 7
Andrii Shevchenko 6
Sylvain Wiltord 6

And Adriano + Wilford + Makaay had an extra round, Shev has had 2
So when you said he doesn't even come close in Europe, you meant that nobody comes close to him in Europe? Shev will have to score 3 in the final to get the golden boot award, otherwise its going to this guy who doesnt even come close in Europe, eh? Someone who won this two years running before, in 2002/2003. What have you been drinking?

As for you cleverly preempting my arguements by saying not to say them, thats kinda silly.
Both the forwards jobs are technically not to score goals, they are to get the team to score goals.
If a forward has 40 assists and no goals, is he ****? No, he probably holds up the ball really really well, is useful for the direct route.
I could say, In reality, the only compo where Van Nist and Henry can be compared this year is the CL, since its the only place they've played the same amount of games against similar opposition, look who wins out.
But I ain't that silly, cause Henry is a playmaker/forward who scores a huge precentage of his goals from outside the box, and Van Nist has never scored for United from outside the box. Henry drops deep and runs at defenses, Van Nist stands in around defenses waiting for a chance. Henry stands outside the box in a corner or takes em, Van Nist stands beside the goalie to bug him. Different players! Why hasn't Van Nist equalled Henry this year in the scoring charts, I dont know is it the fact he has been injured for most of the season? Perhaps
To Compare Henry and Van Nist is like comparing Keano and Scholes, they do entirly different jobs, but hey, they are in midfield.

--

As for Terry and Rio, I think Terry has had a fantastic season, but I still think Rio is a better defender. Terry is a leader on the pitch, inspires people to total dedication, Rio however is a leader on the pitch, tells people what to do and makes our defense the 2nd best in England, and hopefully the best next season.

Big Ears

Van Nistelrooy has scored 8 because of the opposition United played , 4 against Sparta Prague was it ? , and not one of them wasn't because of a major error from Prague's defence .

Since Henry and Nistelrooy both play in the same league where they play the same oppositon I think its fairest to compare them in the Premiership .
In the last two seasons Henry has had more assists and goals in the Premiership than Nistelrooy and the year before than he had 1 less goal and 21 more assists , this leads to the conclusion that he is definetly the better player and it would seem to me also the better goalscorer .

If a forward has 40 assists and no goals, is he ****? No

no he's not **** but finnishing is possibly the biggest part of a fowards game and if he can't finnish he's playing in the wrong poisition .

If you think Rio is better than Terry than I don't even know why im boothering replying , its like saying Roque Junior is better than Nesta , or Nistelrooy is better than Shevshenko.....oh wait :eek:

PHB

Van Nist and Henry give totally different contributions to the team.
Henry can't head the ball for ****, does that detract from his ability? No, its not his position really.
Van Nist doesn't really drop deep and run at players, does that detract from his ability? No!
Shev is amazing at his position, but its more Henry esqkue than Van Nist. He plays inbetween those two positions.
I'd say he is a better player than both of them tbh.

Eh, ok so they were against Sparta Prague so they don't count?
Em, how many goals has Henry scored against West Brom/Palace?
Do they not count for some reason? If they don't, they have a look at the big games, and ask who scores when needed? Its not Henry, its Van Nist.

So what we've got is:

CL 2004/2005 - Top Scorer
CL 2003/2004 - 5th or 6th or something
CL 2002/2003 - Top Scorer
CL 2001/2002 - Top Scorer
Prem 2004/2005 - No Idea, [Henry ahead by maybe 15/20] Why? Injured for most of the season
Prem 2003/2004 - Third Scorer [Henry ahead by 10, fantastic season]
Prem 2002/2003 - Top Scorer [Henry behind by one]
Prem 2001/2002 - Joint Second [Henry ahead by one]
Europe 2004 -
Baroš 5
Rooney 4
Van Nistelrooij 4
Charisteas 3
Lampard 3
Joint second highest

no he's not **** but finnishing is possibly the biggest part of a fowards game and if he can't finnish he's playing in the wrong poisition .

I had a whole thing written out about that, but the records speak for themselves.
This season hasn't been great for him, but lets see what happens next season.
If you think hes not world class fine, but do so at your own folly. With any luck, the rset of the premiership will be that silly about Van Nist, that'd be great.

smemon

you cant doubt van nistelrooys class. his record speaks for itself. if your gonna have a pop at any big striker, aim your criticism at drogba, multi million pound 'goal machine' from france that has 'everything'. that was the build up of him at the start of the season.

his goal return has been poor when you consider the trophies and knock out stages chelsea have won/been in. plus he cant exactly blame the lack of service he gets.

Big Ears

smemon wrote:

you cant doubt van nistelrooys class. his record speaks for itself. if your gonna have a pop at any big striker, aim your criticism at drogba, multi million pound 'goal machine' from france that has 'everything'. that was the build up of him at the start of the season.

his goal return has been poor when you consider the trophies and knock out stages chelsea have won/been in. plus he cant exactly blame the lack of service he gets.

Im not having a 'pop' at Nistelrooy at all , he's a great striker no doubt , but I don't beleive he's the best in the Premiership and I don't beleive he is the best in Europe .(best in Europe pretty much means best in World aswell)

from france that has 'everything' , he may have come over from Marseille if thats what you mean but he's from the Ivory Coast/Cóte d Ivoire and I don't remeber anyone saying he had everything , I remeber most saying Chelsea had payed too much money and that Drogba wasn't worth that much .

He's not exactly lightning , his touch can be poor , his finsihing is far from prolific and for someone playing as the front man for this current Chelsea team shhould have scored alot more , TBH I think this is what most were expecting of him .

Henry can't head the ball for ****, does that detract from his ability? , well yes , if he was a great header of the ball it would give Arsenal more options , to get crosses in at head hight (which they never do) and to smack long balls up if nothing else works(they never do this and who knows if they had , maybe they would have beaten Bayern seeing as how **** they were in the air) , but most strikers miss something , Henry: heading , Nistelrooy: long range shooting , Shearer: pace , I think its one of the reasons Shevshenko is so great is he seems to have everything .

PHB

Can you name people you think that are better than Van Nist?

I think Shev is, but anyone else?

LegacyUser

Crespo is comparable to Van Nist. Schev is comparable with Henry/Ronaldo.

Different types of strikers who score goals. Van Nist is the best finisher in the world from inside the box.

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

LegacyUser

All I know is Frank Rijkard should be next United manager when Ferguson goes. I would be extremely excited to have him at United.

PHB

"I promise you it will not happen again next year," he said when reflecting on his resting of Ruud van Nistelrooy, Roy Keane, Wayne Rooney and Paul Scholes. "I will think seriously about the teams I am going to play."

Yay
A change in ideas hopefully
Maybe even a 4-4-2 :P

Bowser

PHB wrote:

"I promise you it will not happen again next year," he said when reflecting on his resting of Ruud van Nistelrooy, Roy Keane, Wayne Rooney and Paul Scholes. "I will think seriously about the teams I am going to play."

Yay
A change in ideas hopefully
Maybe even a 4-4-2 :P

So what does that mean? Does it mean alex ferguson underestimated his opposition ALL season? Complacency methinks!

SteM

Very interesting stats on the rednews site yesterday......

---

MEN on dropped point
Monday, May 9, 2005

Of 24 points available against sides now occupying the spots from 13th-placed Birmingham down to West Brom, United have surrendered an astonishing 18 points.

That alone would have been enough to lead Chelsea by a point.

Then consider that block of teams who have been contesting UEFA Cup places and the Champions League fourth place - Everton, Bolton, City, Middlesbrough and Spurs. United have dropped 13 out of a potential 18 points against that lot. That makes a fatal total of 31 points shipped from a possible 42.

---

I feel confident that a new midfielder, a winger to motivate Giggs and Ronaldo and perhaps goalkeeper will help United challenge for the league next season. It's good to be building a team for the future but I'd like to see players with experience being brought in. Then it's up to the manager and players that are currently there to raise their game. 4-5-1 or 4-4-2, it doesn't bother me (although my preference is 4-4-2) but I'd like to see a much more settled side next season.

Bowser

Alex ferguson has now siad there is no difference in quality between the two sides! He cleraly hasnt been keeping an eye on the premiership table this season!

PHB

When he talks about that, I always get the impression he is talking about it in a one match sense, i.e. top 11 vs. top 11 on any given day.

TheMonster

United top 11 playing well compares favourable with Chelseas as does Arsenals.

How many times were they able to
1) Play first 11 and
2) Play well
is the problem

Take it

Chelsea to me have a far better starting 11 then united the only problem id say with chelsea is up front which im sure they will sort out this summer,

Cech-v-Howard/Carroll = Cech
Terry-v-Rio = Terry(i know ppl will try agrue with this but he is player of the year)
Gallas-v-Heinze = Heinze
Cavalio-v-Silvestre = Cavalio
Lampard-v-Keane = Lampard
Makalee-v-Scholes = I'd say Scholes (its a tough one but i love Scholes)
Duff-v-Ronaldo = Duff
Robben-v-Giggs = Robben
Gudjohnson -v- Rooney = Rooney
Dorogba -v- Van = Van

cournioni

I think you'd be better comparing Keane with Makalele and Scholes with Lampard rather than the way you've posted it. Keane and Lampard are two totally different type of players.

Big Ears

PHB wrote:

Can you name people you think that are better than Van Nist?

'Stats' will probably disagree with most of this but we know they don't prove everything . : Shevshenko , Adriano , Henry , Maakay , Eto'o , Forlan(im not jokeing) , Ronaldo , Crespo , Inzaghi , Vieri , Miguel Owen and thats all I can think of now .

Big Ears

PORNAPSTER wrote:

I think you'd be better comparing Keane with Makalele and Scholes with Lampard rather than the way you've posted it. Keane and Lampard are two totally different type of players.

Very true but then I presume Lampard v Scholes= Lampard
Makelele v Keane= Makelele

eirebhoy

Take it wrote:

Lampard-v-Keane = Lampard
Makalee-v-Scholes = I'd say Scholes (its a tough one but i love Scholes)

Why are you comparing a DMC with an AMC and another DMC with another AMC?

/edit - oops. didn't see other posts.

PHB

I think Keano will bitch slap Lampard around tonight tbh.
That said, I'll imagine that Lampard will be very quiet the entire game then all of a sudden score a goal knowing him

As for all those players being better than Van Nist, I think you're absolutely nuts.
Stats don't prove anything, but they tend to highlight certain things very well, and you really can't argue with Van Nist's record.
He gets the goals

Big Ears

PHB wrote:

l, and you really can't argue with Van Nist's record.
He gets the goals

and I don't , he is a very good striker , the problem with comparing strikers is variables , e.g. league they play in players that play with them are they instructed to help more with assists or to shoot on site unless someones in a very good position , do they take penalties they they take free kicks , they they take corners(which makes it less likely for them to score) and so on .

MisterAnarchy

I watched Man Utd 'The Treble' DVD last night and I was struck by how much United have deteriorated as a team.
The pace and width they had back then was alarming.
Beckham was whipping in cross after cross and Yorke and Cole were on fire.
Sheringham and Ole were Gr8 too.
It was a joy to watch.
Teams were fearful of being routed at Old Trafford.
The present team is one paced,predictable and getting worse.
The main problem with the present team is that the players just arent good enough.
Its that simple.
They have dropped 18 points against the bottom 8 teams this season; most of whom are atrocious .
Rarely have I been excited watching Utd play this season as they have struggled against poor opposition over and over again.

Dcully

lol

Jivin Turkey

Big Ears wrote:

and I don't , he is a very good striker , the problem with comparing strikers is variables , e.g. league they play in players that play with them are they instructed to help more with assists or to shoot on site unless someones in a very good position , do they take penalties they they take free kicks , they they take corners(which makes it less likely for them to score) and so on .

But the one league that is common to all of them is the CL, and Ruud rules the roost their against all the players you mentioned.

As for the likes of Eto'o or Adriano currently being better than RvN? You are believing too much hype. Flair and skill are not everything. Adriano has never scored more than 15 league goals in a season. Eto'o breached the 20 goal mark for the first time this year.

As regards Vieri and Crespo. At one stage of their careers they were probably better than RvN but their wasnt much in it. And I know who Id rather in my team now. Vieri used to be one of my favourite players, but is an egotistical moron, who had it all but wasted such a talent. Crespo has been a shadow of the player he was in the last few years.

Makaay and Inzaghi, RvN definately for me. And probably most people.

Forlan is just trolling so I wont even respond with reasons.

There is also so much more to RvNs game than goals, he harrasses defenders, wins a huge amount of penalties, holds the ball up phenominally for not the biggest bloke, and assists in loads of Uniteds moves.

Big Ears

Jivin Turkey wrote:

But the one league that is common to all of them is the CL,

A 'league' where everybody doesn't play the same teams and doesn't play the same amount of games .

Forlan has scored about 20 league goals in Spain this year so I don't see how im trolling .

Jivin Turkey

Big Ears wrote:

A 'league' where everybody doesn't play the same teams and doesn't play the same amount of games .

But the standard of teams played by all the players is in and around the same because of the seeding. And RvN stands head and shoulders above almost all the players you have mentioned. Particularly when you consider that the likes of Inzaghi and Im sure Crespo and Vieri would have played a considerable amount of games more than him.

Big Ears wrote:

Forlan has scored about 20 league goals in Spain this year so I don't see how im trolling .

Well if you aren't you must have the memory of a goldfish because he played in England for last number of years. And he was woeful, all the time. One good season doesnt put him ahead of one of the best goalscorers Europe has seen in the last decade.

Andy Johnsen has also scored 20 goals, so why dont we add him to the list. And Delron Buckley isnt far off the 20 mark either.

Big Ears

Jivin Turkey wrote:

But the standard of teams played by all the players is in and around the same because of the seeding. And RvN stands head and shoulders above almost all the players you have mentioned. Particularly when you consider that the likes of Inzaghi and Im sure Crespo and Vieri would have played a considerable amount of games more than him.


Well if you aren't you must have the memory of a goldfish because he played in England for last number of years. And he was woeful, all the time. One good season doesnt put him ahead of one of the best goalscorers Europe has seen in the last decade.

Andy Johnsen has also scored 20 goals, so why dont we add him to the list. And Delron Buckley isnt far off the 20 mark either.

Il deal with the second bit first , England didn't suit Forlan , everytime he went away on international duty he played well and often scored , just like Veron a world class player that just didn't fit into the league .

Milan or Man United
Barcelona- Lyon
Celtic-Sparta Prague
Shaktar Donetsk -Fenerbache

I would beleive that if all the teams on the left played all the teams on the right over two legs , at least 3 (and I think 4 ) of the teams on the left would win(note one of those ties did happen and the team on the left won)

The group on the left is much harder so seeding doesn't have the standard about the same .

Jivin Turkey

Big Ears wrote:

Il deal with the second bit first , England didn't suit Forlan , everytime he went away on international duty he played well and often scored , just like Veron a world class player that just didn't fit into the league .

Forlan didnt set the world alight in Argentina either. A goal every other game is hardly world class. And as for scoring on international duty, South American international football is very erratic, teams hammer other teams regularly. There is always lots of goals. He would want to be bagging a few.

As regards English football not suiting him. I could understand with Veron due to pace of the game and time on the ball etc.

But Forlan got chances, he just fluffed them on regular occassions. What next? Are you going to try and tell me it was the English grass, wind or footballs that were the problem?

Big Ears wrote:

I would beleive that if all the teams on the left played all the teams on the right over two legs , at least 3 (and I think 4 ) of the teams on the left would win(note one of those ties did happen and the team on the left won)

The group on the left is much harder so seeding doesn't have the standard about the same .

Perhaps in this extreme case, but you know as well as I do that you are glossing over the facts, and that in general the groups work out pretty fairly. Usually with one or two groups slighty harder on paper, and one or two slightly weaker.

That said, RvNs record in the CL is far superior to the players I have compared his to. Believe what you want but I know its not just because United have had easier draws to the likes of Inter or Milan.

Villain

Man United 20 points behind Chelsea in the league and beaten 3-1 at home by a weakened Chelsea side!

Now I think any United supporter would have to admit that by their standards this has been a very bad season so far and if they fail to win the FA Cup it will have been the worst in a long time.

I have great respect for Sir Alex but I think the time has come for him to step aside, I honestly believe that he doesn't know his best 11. He has changed the lineup a lot more this season than most, now injurys were of course part of that but not all of it.

I personally would like to see more of Alan Smith I like his high tempo style of play.

BaZmO*

Anybody see the head butt the referee gave Ronaldo last night? Absolute classic and funnily enough Ronaldo remained on his feet!

B.

Bowser

Man Utd were outclassed last night at home! They were nearly always on the back foot. If you watched the game last night (with Chelsea missing a number of players), you can still sea how relatively weak united are to Chelsea in many areas on the park.

eirebhoy

I don't know how reliable this paper is, I doubt it is at all but anyway (in Spanish):
http://www.sport.es/default.asp?idpublicacio_PK=33&idioma=CAS&idnoticia_PK=209549&idseccio_PK=616&h=050511

It basically says that negotiations initiated between representatives of both clubs in London yesterday. Minimum €30m price tag.

BaZmO*

eirebhoy wrote:

http://www.sport.es/default.asp?idpublicacio_PK=33&idioma=CAS&idnoticia_PK=209549&idseccio_PK=616&h=050511

Separated at birth?

Aphex Twin


Rio


B.

SteM

eirebhoy wrote:

I don't know how reliable this paper is, I doubt it is at all but anyway (in Spanish):
http://www.sport.es/default.asp?idpublicacio_PK=33&idioma=CAS&idnoticia_PK=209549&idseccio_PK=616&h=050511

It basically says that negotiations initiated between representatives of both clubs in London yesterday. Minimum €30m price tag.

Woodgate/Ferdinand central defence next year

Grimlock

ziggy67 wrote:

Chelsea with their resources will be a tough nut to crack but there is no reason at all why Utd shouldn't finish above Arsenal) or win the CL.

Yes there is Arsenal have a better first team, their week in week out performances have proved that, just as chelsea have proved to be a better team than arsenal. Win CL your dreaming!

BaZmO* wrote:

You have to consider where Utd. would be if RA hadn't of bought Chelsea. They would be still in the running for the Premiership title.

IF,IF IF, fact is RA has bought into chelsea and UTD and Arsenal now have to compete with them AND even IF RA hadn't bought into chelsea then No UTD still wouldn't have won the prem, they are 9 points behind Arsenal with 1 game to go and a 21 deficit as regards goal difference. (you do the maths)

BaZmO* wrote:

As has been said a million times before, AF and Utd. have not suddenly become a crap team, it's just that Chelsea and Arsenal have raised their game considerably! Hell, just look at last seasons champions, they went the whole season unbeaten and this years champions won it almost tipping the 100 points mark!!!

Why is that? Because they are better! Face it Utd are third and can have no complaints about their position. If chelsea and arsenal up their game Utd have to up their game to if they intend to compete. That's like saying the liverpool team of the mid late 90's was no worse than the one in the 80's and early 90's except they couldn't compete with Utd, it's pure fantasy and you know it. Utd just haven't been able to compete due to an aging squad and some very poor buys and a complete lack of youth system break throughs.

TheMonster wrote:

In the last 2 years in the league - it has only been Arsenals form last years and Chelseas forms this year that has been so far ahead of the rest that have caused Uts to slip up.

Same as above.

United are a team in decline have been for the past 4 years, They've won 1 prem title (a title gifted to them by arsenal bottling an 11 point lead) other than that they haven't finished in the top 2, they haven't competed in europe and have only 1 FA cup. That's 2 trophies in 4 seasons.
And if the current UTD team played the team of 99, ask yourself, honestly, who do you think would win?

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

SteM

Grimlock wrote:

Win CL your dreaming!

Mmmm, that's what I would have laughed at a Liverpool fan if he had said to me they were going to be in the CL final at the start of the season. It seems like a tournament where anything can happen now, if you're in it theres a chance you can win it.

I'm not a big fan of football365 but there was a good opinion piece posted there that someone sent on to me....

http://www.football365.com/opinion/john_nicholson/story_152067.shtml

'I'm Mourning The ManYoo Malaise...'
Wednesday May 11 2005

To me Man United are the epitome of gritty Northern glamour. Yes it's about
money and success but its more than that. It tends to be more in your face
than London glamour, it doesn't forget its roots and it usually has a
redoubtable ‘f*** you’ attitude to go with it, borne out of the default belief
that if you grow up working-class and poor in the north, you will stay that
way for the rest of your life.

It's like you're destined to be a failure and be looked down on by the more
prosperous, more healthy and long-living south of England.

Things have changed economically in recent years but culturally it remains
true. So when you make it big, you feel like you've beaten the odds somehow
and Man United has always been part of that northern glamour. The most money,
flash players, the biggest ground, the biggest club.

Well, that was yesterday, today things are looking quite different and I for
one really regret their clear decline.

This is no blip anymore. Finishing third three times in four years is no mere
blip in form .It's a clear trend. Yes, most of us would kill to be third once
in the Premiership. But Man United's standards are higher than most. After
such an extended period of domination and success, third feels like nowhere.
Especially when you're 20 points behinds the winners.

It's like when Led Zeppelin released Houses of the Holy. Their first four
albums were steam-rolling, genre-defining classic rock records that
established their legend status. When 'Houses' came out we couldn't believe
it. It was less than perfect. A couple of classics were still there but there
was, for the first time, some dodgy filler tracks.

Zep pulled it round by the time of their next album, the monumental statement
of searing rock and roll that is Physical Graffiti, and that's the exact same
type of recovery Man United now need to make.

They rarely seem to play well. They seem to huff and puff a lot but get
nowhere. Like an old prize fighter they've dragged themselves up for the big
fights with Arsenal but rather than inspire them to success again, it seems to
have sapped them of their strength.

And though I know it's sacrilegious to say so, I think Fergie must take a lot
of the blame for this drift. He doesn't half mess around with his team
selections.

I've never been a fan of squad rotations. I don't really buy the idea that
players are so tired after playing a few matches consecutively that they need
to put their feet up. It's certainly far too easy for them to use this as an
excuse for lacklustre performances.

But worse than this, the squad players are just nowhere good enough. It's
clear now.

They have had rotten injuries to Ruud van Nistelrooy and Louis Saha and the
Rio fiasco hasn't helped but realistically they just don't have enough
top-quality players anymore and they don't seem to organise themselves well
enough to beat sides even like lowly West Brom.

Am I imagining this? Didn't they have the most success playing 4-4-2 with two
wide players and two up front? Can’t their slow decline be traced back to the
decision to start playing one up front with one in the hole? I know this was
Fergie's decision to try and be more successful in Europe but surely they won
the thing in 1999 by precisely not playing that way?

I 'm no tactical expert but it looks to me that much of the time they just
don't seem to know what they're supposed to be doing.

They're not the invincible crushing red machine of a few years ago, they look
like a disjointed assembly of a few great talents and as such they rely on
great individual efforts like Rooney's strike against Newcastle. But you can't
build success on flashes of brilliance, you need, as Chelsea have so perfectly
illustrated, a quality collective effort more than you need individual
brilliance.

Am I imagining this - that the decline started with the sale of Stam? It feels
that way. And without Beckham they just don’t score from dead ball situations.
He could rescue them with one well-placed free-kick. Now that's gone.

Add this basic lack of cohesiveness to the fact that too many players are not
top class and we see the reasons for failure. We all know who the rubbish
players are - Kleberson appears to be taking the p***. World Cup winner,
you’re having a laugh.

But I'd also like to add to the list Ryan Giggs. I know I don't see Man U as
much as their fans do, but I can't be the only one who sees him as a liability
now. While earlier in the season he had a couple of months of inspiration
while he was trying to prove he was worth more than a one-year contract, too
much of the time he cross poorly (as he, in truth always has done) he doesn't
make penetrative runs, is too easily dispossessed and misplaces too many
passes.

Maybe he suffered with the change of tactics but I know, when I was at Old
Trafford to see Boro a couple of years ago, Man United fans were even then
expressing frustration with him and calls for him to be sold were rife.

Man United, for me, despite their eclipse by Jose's Giants, are still the
biggest band in the world and on a good day when it clicks, there's still
nothing like them. For me the northern glitterati will always shine brightest
of all, but it happens far too infrequently now and I want to see their
decline halted. They've already fallen too far. This isn't a team in
transition as is often said, its a team in slow decline.

But here's the worrying thing. It'll take way more money than is available to
correct the problems. With a goalkeeper, central defender, creative
midfielder, holding midfielder, left winger and at least one top-class striker
to buy, how can that be funded? The squad is full of average players. This
hasn't just happened, it’s the result of several years of poor transfer
choices.

If the signings of Rooney and Ronaldo prove anything, it's that it’s worth
saving your money up and getting top notch. And maybe their scouts need to
work harder on finding superb young talent for good money. Wenger does a much
better job at finding it. It is out there. Fergie doesn't seem to tap in to
it.

And maybe that's at the core of it all. Fergie. A giant of the game. All-time
legend. There's no arguing that. But we need to at least consider that it’s
all getting away from him. That his powers are diminishing.

Change is inevitable, maybe now is the time to call Celtic and invite Mr
O'Neill down for a chat. Because I have a horrible feeling that Man U have
further to fall without something radical being done and that'd be bad because
as mad as it might sound, I think the game in this country benefits from its
big, gritty, even ugly northern glamour clubs and Manchester United are the
biggest and most glamorous of all. Still.

jank

John Nicholson the guy who wrote the article is a joke!! He makes dunphy look like the most reasonable pundit ever.
Didnt he write at the start of last season that arsenal would battle it out for 5 spot with spurs!!! lol
His reasoning was that get this that highbury is too small a stadium for champions to play in. He had to right a big applogy and a retraction at the end of last season which was quite funny to say the least. In other words he is full of ****!

Yea a very "northern mind" gives it away alright!

SteM

jank wrote:

John Nicholson the guy who wrote the article is a joke!! He makes dunphy look like the most reasonable pundit ever.
Didnt he write at the start of last season that arsenal would battle it out for 5 spot with spurs!!! lol
His reasoning was that get this that highbury is too small a stadium for champions to play in. He had to right a big applogy and a retraction at the end of last season which was quite funny to say the least. In other words he is full of ****!

Yea a very "northern mind" gives it away alright!

Well jank he writes 'opinion' pieces and everyone's allowed have one so what can you do?

I know that there are more than a few United fans that would agree with some of the stuff especially this section....

They rarely seem to play well. They seem to huff and puff a lot but get
nowhere. Like an old prize fighter they've dragged themselves up for the big
fights with Arsenal but rather than inspire them to success again, it seems to
have sapped them of their strength.

And though I know it's sacrilegious to say so, I think Fergie must take a lot
of the blame for this drift. He doesn't half mess around with his team
selections.

I've never been a fan of squad rotations. I don't really buy the idea that
players are so tired after playing a few matches consecutively that they need
to put their feet up. It's certainly far too easy for them to use this as an
excuse for lacklustre performances.

But worse than this, the squad players are just nowhere good enough. It's
clear now.

They have had rotten injuries to Ruud van Nistelrooy and Louis Saha and the
Rio fiasco hasn't helped but realistically they just don't have enough
top-quality players anymore and they don't seem to organise themselves well
enough to beat sides even like lowly West Brom.

Am I imagining this? Didn't they have the most success playing 4-4-2 with two
wide players and two up front? Can’t their slow decline be traced back to the
decision to start playing one up front with one in the hole? I know this was
Fergie's decision to try and be more successful in Europe but surely they won
the thing in 1999 by precisely not playing that way?

I 'm no tactical expert but it looks to me that much of the time they just
don't seem to know what they're supposed to be doing.

They're not the invincible crushing red machine of a few years ago, they look
like a disjointed assembly of a few great talents and as such they rely on
great individual efforts like Rooney's strike against Newcastle. But you can't
build success on flashes of brilliance, you need, as Chelsea have so perfectly
illustrated, a quality collective effort more than you need individual
brilliance.


as this is a 'the whats wrong with man united thread..' I thought I would post the piece but I now see I was wrong for trying to keep a discussion going.

jank

Everyone is entitled to his opinion but im just stating that his opinion is usually full of ****.

SteM

jank wrote:

Everyone is entitled to his opinion but im just stating that his opinion is usually full of ****.

Why, because he wrote something ridiculous that pi**ed you off once?

Come on, this is the 'the whats wrong with man united thread..' not the 'the whats wrong with John Nicholson thread..' so why don't you give us your opinion of what's wrong at United rather than jumping on someone elses?

I'd be interested to hear an Arsenal fan's take on things.

The Muppet

That's good honest article IMO. I don't agree or maybe it's that I dont want to agree with some of it but you can't really argue with it TBH.

jank

Just look at his previous articles and you will know the standard of his bull****.

Didnt i already give my opinion on this?
Anyway whats wrong with utd is their midfield and fergies misguided loyalty to keane. keane is well passed it now and can only play well in a 5 man midfield, along with the aging scholes, giggs. They have no class in midfield anymore and they cheap wenger style buys lately havent worked out.

They spent 28 million on rooney who is a great player but the money should have gone on the midfield and a keeper. The team however should be based around rooney now rather then keane and RVN.

Another problem is the lack of young players vieing for positions in the team. Have there been any lately apart from fletcher, who is **** imo.

They cant buy there way out of trouble as before becuase now chelsea can out bid them all the time everytime.

There are a number of things wrong with utd and the problem is more serious then one might imagine. I think its going to get worse before its going to get better. Most of all though fergie is no longer feared in the utd dressing room. Players are getting away with playing below par far too often, hence the drop in standard.

There may be more ideas of mine to come.....cant think of any more now though

So what you think stem

mr_angry

I've seen Nicholson write some stupid pieces at times, but I think he's on the money with this one. With one exception: they don't need another striker.

Throughout the 90's, United always played with the mantra of attacking football, often attracting criticism that they were too cavalier. But they always seemed to find a goal when they most needed it. Whats more, this put the opposition under so much constant pressure, they hardly ever got out of their own half to attack. Now, it looks like United can hardly even buy a goal. They're not even putting the opposition under that much pressure, and almost every game I see the opposition wasting good chances against United, and not really caring! These are chances they would have been praying for a few years ago.

People might slate Dunphy aswell, but he made a very valid point at the end of the PSV vs Milan match last week - "Great teams have the right mix of grit & determination and skill. Some teams have more grit & less skill, like Liverpool, and some have more skill and less grit, like Chelsea. One thing's for sure, if you haven't got the right mix, you aren't guaranteed anything". I think this applies to United too - plenty of skill in certain areas, but no real grit & determination anymore, especially in midfield. They certainly don't have the fear factor they used to.