Everton Get Major CL Boost

MrJoeSoap

BBC wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/4515401.stm

The Football Association has confirmed the Premiership's top four will qualify for next season's Champions League.
The decision will come as a blow to Liverpool who could win the competition this season and not be able to defend the trophy if they finish fifth.

Everton are currently in fourth place in the top-flight and are three points ahead of the Reds with a game in hand.

But the FA says it will lobby Uefa for a fifth Champions League place if the Reds beat AC Milan in the 25 May final.

All the talk of Liverpool over the last few days seems to have taken some of the shine of Everton's great achievement (not to put a jinx on them). Great to see the FA has made what I see as the correct decision, and allowed the top 4 clubs to enter the Champions League.

uberwolf

MrJoeSoap wrote:

allowed the top 4 clubs to enter the Champions League.

allowed the top 4 in the league to enter the Champions League.


/opens can, slinks away

yop

allowed the top 4 in the league to enter the Champions League.

Hear hear, rightly so, best of luck to Everton in actually holding onto the 4th spot now.

MrJoeSoap

Nitpick!

You know what I meant!

Dub13

Dont be surprised if Everton get into the Champions League only to be knocked out in the qualifying round,then they could come up against Liverpool in the UEFA cup...

galwaydude

The FA have however said that they will lobby EUFA for a fifth spot if Liverpool do win the CL against the mighty milan in 3 weeks.

Can of worms still open.

A Dub in Glasgo

About time the English FA made a decision and the right one as well

MrJoeSoap

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

About time the English FA made a decision and the right one as well

Here here, can't say I had much faith in them to do it though. They can't seem to make a good decision for their lives these days.

Badabing

Dub13 wrote:

Dont be surprised if Everton get into the Champions League only to be knocked out in the qualifying round,then they could come up against Liverpool in the UEFA cup...

They could get Celtic, that would be some game.

Thanx 4 The Fish

Right decision :rolleyes:

Roll on the FA docking everton 9 points for some minor infringement to save themselves a headache.

Keano_sli

The right and fair decison, can't change the rules after the competition has started. Everyone know they were playing for 4th to get to CL, Liverpools lucky cup run shouldn't allow them to jump the queue!

Thanx 4 The Fish

And by the same token Evertons luck in the league shouldn't allow them to stop the champions getting in to defend.

Lex Luthor

Keano_sli wrote:

The right and fair decison, can't change the rules after the competition has started. Everyone know they were playing for 4th to get to CL, Liverpools lucky cup run shouldn't allow them to jump the queue!

I think also it is the right decision, but I wouldn't see it as jumping the queue...UEFA have allowed this to happen and they should make a provision for the winner of the cup.
After all, Harchester United played in the CL this year and they're in the lower division.

KdjaCL

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

And by the same token Evertons luck in the league shouldn't allow them to stop the champions getting in to defend.

I never seen such a bitter fan in my life, your posts regarding Liverpool and Everton would get any other user banned. Excellent job your doing there :rolleyes:


kdjac

uberwolf

I actually thought it was a reasonable tongue in cheek response to the nonsensical post before it. T4TF has already said it was the correct decision. It was the luck part he was responding to. Back in your box :rolleyes:

mr_angry

I think today's decision is only fair. They said at the start of the season that the top 4 would qualify for the Champions League and to move the goalposts now would be totally unfair. All the teams agreed to those rules at the outset.

I think the decision now rests firmly with UEFA. I don't see why England can't be awarded another spot in the 3rd qualifying round or something. And who would you rather watch in the group stages - the holders, or someone like Graz or Willem II? I'd say it will all work itself out in the end.

Guy:Incognito

mr_angry wrote:

I think today's decision is only fair. They said at the start of the season that the top 4 would qualify for the Champions League and to move the goalposts now would be totally unfair. .

I think thats liverpools point though, it wasnt actually set in stone, just assumed based on past years. As it was said in one of the other threads (backed up with a section from UEFA's rules) that the FA decide what teams to put into the CL.

Thanx 4 The Fish

KdjaC wrote:

I never seen such a bitter fan in my life, your posts regarding Liverpool and Everton would get any other user banned. Excellent job your doing there :rolleyes:


kdjac

No they wouldn't, would you like to know how I know they would not get somebody banned. It's because Talla and I do the banning and in the main part it has been for personal abuse recently. None of it has been for expressing an opinion in a civil fashion or even for mild sarcasm.

Would you care to explain why I am a bitter fan then lad ? I await with baited breath your reasoned explanantion of how me thinking that Everton are as lucky to get fourth as previous posters have said liverpool are to be in the final of the biggest club competition in Europe is bitter. I obviously would like to see the pool compete in the CL and think that they would deserve it just as much as Real did in 2000 if they were to win it.

Over to you kdjac.

Keano_sli

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

And by the same token Evertons luck in the league shouldn't allow them to stop the champions getting in to defend.

Cup football is knockout, you do need some luck to get all the way. The league on the other hand is the culmination of your performance over 38 games which at least balances out the element of "luck" and gives a fairer gauge of your season in realtion to the teams above and below you, I think you'll agree and lets not forget 1. Liverpool have the small matter of winning the final first which if the don't will negate the entire argument and 2. They can still finish 4th, 5th or possibly 6th which would be a fair reflection of thier season based on points scored relative to the other teams in the league.

Of course if Liverpool lose the final due some "disputable" decision, Penalty, Offside goal or Goal scored after Liverpool should have had a free etc.. Hpw many people will be saying that they were "unlucky".

Take it

I fell we aint heard the end of this yet IF liverpool win the CL they aint going to sit back and accept this no club would

Thanx 4 The Fish

Keano_sli wrote:

Of course if Liverpool lose the final due some "disputable" decision, Penalty, Offside goal or Goal scored after Liverpool should have had a free etc.. Hpw many people will be saying that they were "unlucky".

Probably all of the people who do not think it was just luck that got them there in the first place. If liverpool get beat off the pitch then obviously it would be because they were not good enough to beat AC but that would not lessen their achievement in getting there in any way at all. I have been accused of being bitter in this thread but surely somebody who says that Liverpool are "lucky" to be in the final after beating some of the best teams in Europe, convincingly in some cases, has some bitterness issues too

super_furry

The FA are hypocrites. Last season they were willing to change the rules for Chelsea and Arsenal, but now that it's Liverpool things have changed again.

http://www.thefa.com/TheFA/ContactUs/Postings/2004/03/European_Places.htm

"With the season about to reach its conclusion, we clear-up for you how the European places are awarded.

The Champions League


Number of places available: 4



Eligibility



The UEFA Champions League is open to each national association's domestic champions, as well as clubs who finish just behind them in the domestic championship table.

The number of clubs that can be entered by an association and their entry point in the competition depends on the association's position in UEFA's coefficient ranking list.



Who’s in?



The top two Premiership sides will qualify for the competition automatically, while the third and fourth placed teams will enter initially into the qualification rounds, as Chelsea and Newcastle United did this season.


What if?

Should Arsenal or Chelsea win the Champions League, they will automatically qualify for next season's competition but England will not gain an extra Champions League place, even if they finish outside of the top four in the Premiership.

In that scenario the fourth-placed team in the Premiership will play in next season's UEFA Cup. "

p.pete

Thanx 4 The Fish wrote:

I await with baited breath your reasoned explanantion of how me thinking that Everton are as lucky to get fourth as previous posters have said liverpool are to be in the final of the biggest club competition in Europe is bitter.

Lucky because at the moment the premiership isn't brimming with teams fighting to be at the top of the league. Lucky because an above average season for them sees them in a position way above what they might normally expect. Lucky because teams like Liverpool and Newcastle have dramatically under-performed in the league this season.

Based on league performance I think England deserves only 3 places this year - Everton, Bolton and Liverpool are all so far behind that it's a bit of a joke for them to get a place based on league performance.

That said, if they finish 4th then fair play to them on an excellent season - dito Liverpool if they win the CL.

p.pete

super_furry wrote:

What if?

Should Arsenal or Chelsea win the Champions League, they will automatically qualify for next season's competition but England will not gain an extra Champions League place, even if they finish outside of the top four in the Premiership.

In that scenario the fourth-placed team in the Premiership will play in next season's UEFA Cup. "

Excellent find :eek:

uberwolf

where is MIley byrne when you need him

miley wrote:

well holy god

re: FA. lol.

whats more I'd say thats a basis for a legal challenge right there

mr_angry

uberwolf wrote:

where is MIley byrne when you need him


re: FA. lol.

whats more I'd say thats a basis for a legal challenge right there

On the contrary, I think it is a fair interpretation of the UEFA guidelines. And in the FA's defense, they said they will lobby UEFA for an extra place - something they don't have to do.

uberwolf

The FA made a statement that English winners of the CL would play in the next seasons competition regardless of league placing. More explicitly they said that it would be at the expense of the 4th place team. That creates reasonable expectation. Which is actionable.

Guy:Incognito

Keano_sli wrote:

Cup football is knockout, you do need some luck to get all the way. The league on the other hand is the culmination of your performance over 38 games which at least balances out the element of "luck" and gives a fairer gauge of your season in realtion to the teams above and below you, I think you'll agree and lets not forget 1. Liverpool have the small matter of winning the final first which if the don't will negate the entire argument and 2. They can still finish 4th, 5th or possibly 6th which would be a fair reflection of thier season based on points scored relative to the other teams in the league.".

So what happens if Spurs miss out on Europe by one or two points? That would hardly be the season evening itself out over 38 games , that would be down too one bad decision. Plus the CL is a bit of both, a league first (albeit a small one) and then a knockout, and its against better teams than the ones everton beat to finish 4th (should it happen). Actually , from a quick glane I can see 4 wins by everton against teams in the top half of the table. So I reckon liverpool beating Chelsea, Juve, Leverkusen, Deportivo, Olympiakos and Monaco is a better achievment than Evertons league run. Not to mention that for the scenario to become reality, Milan will be added to that list.

Out of the 5 games everton have played against the top 3 english teams that qualified for the champions league (non of which are still in it) they managed to win one, and i reckon they are going to lose in the sixth game, hardly form that would suggest a great season.

Gangsta

Tbh I'd prefer liverpool getting the spot than everton.Liverpool will defintely qualify but I seriosuly doubt Everton would.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

yop

Can't see what all the whinging is about, the decision is made, 4th team will get through, if pool want to be in CL next year then let them figure out how to win in the league and get the 4th spot.
If the dont then they will not be in the CL next year, clear as mud, nuff said!

Just stop bloody whinging!

Mossy Monk

yop wrote:

if pool want to be in CL next year then let them figure out how to win in the league and get the 4th spot.
If the dont then they will not be in the CL next year, clear as mud, nuff said!

couldnt have put it better myself

TheMonster

yop wrote:

Can't see what all the whinging is about, the decision is made, 4th team will get through, if pool want to be in CL next year then let them figure out how to win in the league and get the 4th spot.
If the dont then they will not be in the CL next year, clear as mud, nuff said!

Just stop bloody whinging!

Hear Hear - Justice has prevailed

TheMonster

Gangsta wrote:

Tbh I'd prefer liverpool getting the spot than everton.Liverpool will defintely qualify but I seriosuly doubt Everton would.

So why bother give places to teams from the weaker countries = Cop onto yourself - that is the crappiest excuse yet I have heard.

If Everton finish higher than Liverpool they have proved to the better team in the competion that matters for qaulifcation. Liverpools league perfromances do not warrant a CL place.

BrookieD

From a die hard LFC fan if the Bluenoses get 4th spot then fairplay to them and best of luck.

The Muppet

I'm amazed that the FA actually made the correct decision. As for Everton being lucky to be in fourth I think thats very disingenious to them to say the least. The league doesn't lie as the luck balances itself out over the season. Liverpools dire league performances are the reason they are in the position they are, it has nothing to do with Everton being lucky.

Ronan|Raven

I have never been able to understand what all the hustle was about. Im a liverpool fan and id dearly love to see them in it next year but if and it hasnt looked likely for a long long time that they will finish 4th then so be it. The team who finishes in the relevant position should get the place.

Winning it will cushion the blow somewhat

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

redspider

super_furry wrote:

Should Arsenal or Chelsea win the Champions League, they will automatically qualify for next season's competition but England will not gain an extra Champions League place, even if they finish outside of the top four in the Premiership. In that scenario the fourth-placed team in the Premiership will play in next season's UEFA Cup.

That is very interesting. I remember there was some talk at the time although I didnt realise that the FA had published anything about.

Something of interest, that page has now been removed from the FA website. Its still in the Google cache however! It was written by Jerry Newman. Wednesday, 10 March 2004. entitled "The road to Europe" in the FAQ section.

Whether it has any legal standing or not is another issue though. It may be an "opinion" piece and treated as journalism by an FA employee, if it was not officially sanctioned.

Overall though, I think that the Uefa Executive (who meet on June 17th) will grant an extra place to England and Liverpool should they win the CL. Up until that point everyone will be saying that te rules wont change, etc. However, the UEFA Executive have it within their powers to make change, although there may be a requirement to put it to a vote from national representatives. We'll just have to wait.


In terms of other issues, such as the effects of luck, etc on Cups and on league competitions. My school of thought on this is that luck DOES play a big factor in winning leagues, even over 38 games, as 38 games is just too short statistically for luck to "even itself out". A league can be won by 1 or 2 pts, or in some cases on goal difference. It is impossible to balance luck out over a mere 38 games for such a fine-rained and narrow difference, when you have penalty decisions, offside decisions, free kicks etc handed out subjectively by humans (ie: refs and linesmen). My hypothesis is that lady luck will indee balance out over 1000 games or so, but thats nearly 30 seasons. But not in one season.

I classify that if two teams finish within 5 pts of each other, they are more or less of the same ability in terms of the league and beating other teams. I think leagues would be much fairer if teams are close that they instead do a play-off. It would also add to the excitement.

In terms of cups, there is a huge luck factor in the draw. It is true that to win a cup you have to beat everyone who has beaten everyone else, but teams forms may dip, a weaker team may play oyut of their skins to beat a better team, a so-called giantkiller, only to se their form dip subsequently and get knocked out. A cup which is not played over two legs has a huge amount of luck involved, such as the FA Cup.

Another aspect that differentiates cups from leagues is the head to head aspect. For example, in football it is not true that if Team A beats Team B, and Team B beats Team C, then A should beat C. An example of that this year is in fact Liverpool and Chelsea. Chelsea have won many "easy games" against the likes of a Birmingham, etc. Liverpool have lost to teams like Birmingham. Yet, in all the games that Liverpool have played against Chelsea, they have shown that they have the capability to beat them, even the two 1-0 losses and the 3-2 loss in the Carling Cup. Teams play with systems, and players that can adapt to their opposition differently. Thats just the nature of football.

At the end of the day we just have to accept that Cups and leagues are different. All are difficult to win, and the aim for all teams is to win them.

~Rebel~

In reality i have to say its the right decision (and im another massive liverpool fan). In my own opinion though i would like to see a provision that the winners gain automatic qualificatioin too. Id imagine that, just as everyone assumed at the start of the season that the top 4 qualify, everyone assumed winning it would gain entry too. well i did anyway..Just think the winner should be allowed in at some level (even if had to go thru a rake of qualifiers or something) irrespective of the country they're representing as they're not gonna be qualifying from the league so it shouldn't matter that there happen to be 5 from england as its still 4 from league and 1 from champs league.

yop

BrookieD wrote:

From a die hard LFC fan if the Bluenoses get 4th spot then fairplay to them and best of luck.

Ronan|Raven wrote:

I have never been able to understand what all the hustle was about. Im a liverpool fan and id dearly love to see them in it next year but if and it hasnt looked likely for a long long time that they will finish 4th then so be it. The team who finishes in the relevant position should get the place.

Winning it will cushion the blow somewhat

Well said lads, common sense at last, at least if ye finish in 4th then ye deserve to be in the CL, if not then Everton have played well enough all season to merit it

uberwolf

yop wrote:

Well said lads, common sense at last, at least if ye finish in 4th then ye deserve to be in the CL, if not then Everton have played well enough all season to merit it

through the league absolutely. The number of times Liverpool were handed the opportunity to claw back points and weren't capable :mad:

however, I find it interesting that the FA removed that page. Which I have saved for posterity

~Rebel~

uberwolf wrote:

however, I find it interesting that the FA removed that page. Which I have saved for posterity

You should email it to every address you can find at liverpool..just to be on the safe side uefa as well..It would actually be a shame for everton to be turfed out but may sway a little towards liverpool deserving to be in it on precedent and make a 5th spot..

WhiteWashMan

good call by the FA i think.
whoever deserve to be there at the end of season, deserves to represent the country in the CL.

Ardent

Everton, if they finish 4th, deserve to be in the CL qualifiers.

I just hope UEFA make an exception to the rule should Liverpool pick up the CL trophy. It's bizarre in any sport not having the reigning champions defending their title.

WhiteWashMan

wolrd cup doesnt have it now, do they? dont brazil have to requalify?

LFCFan

The way I see it though is, if Liverpool hadn't been in the CL, we would have won a lot more games which were played after our CL games. If this had happened, we'd have 4th place wrapped up by now. So in a sense, by getting to the CL final, we have inadvertantly lost out to 4th spot (if that's the way it pans out). Ironic don't you think!

Jivin Turkey

WhiteWashMan wrote:

wolrd cup doesnt have it now, do they? dont brazil have to requalify?

When will people realise that the World Cup is totally different and it was changed following pressure from champions that they were disadvantaged by qualifying automatically?

Its not comparing like with like.

IMO if Liverpool win the Champions League they are far more deserving to defend it than a team that finishes 4th in a domestic league. The fact that Everton have been a surprise package and have done incredibly well this year doesnt make a difference, and Im sure if it were Liverpool struggling for 4th and Everton going to win the CL the views of many here would be very different.

Having said all that if Liverpool are not granted entry to the CL next year if they win it, I wont be too disappointed, because (1) they can have a proper go at the league, and (2) I dont mind Liverpool being reigning CL champions for another year

uberwolf

does anyone know a site where I can put a tenner on Liverpool for next seasons Uefa Cup?

Ardent

Don't bother. Liverpool will win their last two league games and Everton will lose two of their remaining three games. They'll make the CL qualifiers on goal difference.

The Rooster

Well at least the FA have finally come out and made a decision. Its opposite to what Spain did, and its opposite to what the FA's rule is on winning the UEFA Cup (i.e. the winners get in at the expense of a side who came higher in the league), but they had the right to make whatever decision they wanted. I certainly would not begrudge Everton a place if they do come 4th - it'll be nice to see someone different in it, and I genuinely hope they make it through to the league stage.

I think a factor that weighed heavily on the FA was that if they picked Liverpool then Everton would have no chance. But by picking Everton, Liverpool still have a chance, i.e. UEFA could change the rules so the winners have some method of entry. They would have to think of something whereby no other country would be disadvantaged. Probably less than a 50/50 chance of this happening though.

Interesting that since Stevie G scored the winner against Olympiakos, Liverpool have dropped 15 points in the 6 league games that immediately came after CL games.