[Article] European parliament agrees motion to fund McCartney civil action

MT

…but guess which party’s MEPs refused to join the call.

Euro-MPs want cash to bring McCartney murderers to justice

Euro-MPs overwhelmingly called for EU cash today to bring the murderers of Robert McCartney to justice.


An unprecedented motion adopted in Brussels demanded the use of EU budget money to back a civil action being planned by Mr McCartney`s sisters.

The motion will be debated in the European Parliament in Strasbourg on Monday, in the presence of the campaigning McCartney sisters who have already visited Brussels seeking EU backing.

Leaders of political groups representing 627 of the European Parliament`s 732 members have hammered out the terms of the motion at talks in Brussels.

Those refusing to join the call include the left-wing GUE group, which includes the two Sinn Fein MEPs.

The motion condemned "violence and criminality by the self-styled Irish Republican Army in Northern Ireland, in particular the murderers of Robert McCartney".

The 33-year-old father of two was stabbed to death on January 30 in Belfast.

The nine-point motion includes a request, which requires European Commission approval, for the use of funds already set aside in the EU budget to help victims of terrorist acts.

Until now, that provision has never been applied to efforts to bring terrorist criminals to justice.

But the motion urges that "providing that the police service in Northern Ireland is unable to bring about a prosecution in relation to the murder of Robert McCartney, the European Union grants a financial contribution in conformity with the financial regulation toward the cost of the legal fees incurred by the McCartney family in their quest for justice by way of civil proceedings".

Following Monday`s debate on the motion, the full Parliament will vote on Tuesday, almost certainly triggering the clearance of funds which would be crucial in the McCartney family`s ability to carry on fighting its case.

UTV (4/5/05)

Full marks to the European parliament for adopting such a robust stance on this repugnant murder. And at last someone is able to stand up after the long months this sordid affair has been drawn out over and call a spade a spade. The violence and criminality of the ‘self-styled Irish Republican Army’ deserves nothing other than condemnation.

It’s heartening to see this body of real democrats, including all Irish members, stand firm in the face of thuggish tyranny. Except of course, and predictably, the members belonging to Sinn Fein and its GUE group. Not for them, this daft business of finding justice for a brave Irish family. I mean, doesn’t the European Union know to back off. This took place in a Sinn Fein fiefdom where these pesky Eurocrats have no business poking their noses. The McCartneys have a cheek going beyond the Republican tribe in their search for the truth. If Gerry’s boys aren’t careful Europe will get the ludicrous idea that a good deal of the ‘oppression’ in NI emanates from the jackboot of the IRA or something. Heaven forbid!

The hypocrisy and the barely concealed malevolence of the Republican Movement throughout this whole sickening affair never cease to amaze me. Yet again, Gerry Adam’s pious words on the search for ‘truth and justice’ are shown up as nothing more than empty lies. But what can we expect – SF’s armed wing butchered the man, SF’s armed wing intimidated witnesses and destroyed evidence, SF told us only they could determine what constituted a crime, SF members present during the slaying claimed to have seen nothing and to top it all the Republican Movement initiated a whispering campaign to portray the courageous McCartney sisters as nothing more than ungrateful ‘traitors’. By yet again failing to aid Robert’s family in their search for justice, the party simply confirms what has become clear this past year – that SF couldn’t give a fiddler’s for justice.

Maybe UTV could have got a quote from Aengus O’Snodaigh on the suffering of women in society. But then the party quickly buried that crusade when the McCartney sisters had to be dealt with.


Here’s a more detailed wording of the motion from Richard Delevan via Slugger O’Toole :

1. Condemns violence and criminality by the self-styled "Irish Republican Army" (IRA) in Northern Ireland, in particular the murder of Robert McCartney;

2. Stresses in the strongest possible terms that the sisters and partner of Robert McCartney deserve the fullest support in their pursuit of justice;

3. Calls on the leadership of Sinn Féin to insist that those responsible for the murder and witnesses to the murder cooperate directly with the Police Service of Northern Ireland and be free from the threat of reprisals from the IRA;

4. Deplores the insidious whispering campaign aimed at intimidating and discrediting the sisters and fiancée of Robert McCartney in their fight for justice[emphasis added]

5. Calls on the Council and Commission to provide all appropriate assistance to law enforcement authorities in Northern Ireland to see that the murderers of Robert McCartney are brought to justice.

6. Proposes that, if the Police Service of Northern Ireland is unable to bring a prosecution in relation to the murder of Robert McCartney, the European Union grant a financial contribution, in conformity with the Financial Regulation, toward the cost of legal fees incurred by the McCartney family in their quest for justice, by way of civil proceedings;

7. Asks in this connection that the Commission should make such a contribution from the budget line in the general budget of the EU intended for aid for the victims of terrorism;

8. Instructs its President to forward this resolution to the Council, the Commission and the governments and parliaments of the Member States and candidate countries, and the Council of Europe.
The European Parliament

Note numbers 3 and 4. These points explain exactly why Sinn Fein refused to back this motion. After all, the party has done nothing but thwart the police investigation from start to finish. Furthermore, it’s highly likely that the scurrilous whispering campaign – thankfully highlighted by the MEPs – was instigated by the party itself. And of course we all know who prompted the IRA’s intimidation. So of course, SF weren’t going to support such a motion when it clearly undermines all their ‘hard’ work. And worse still, might even lead to prominent members of the party/armed wing being forced to dip into that £26.5 million slush fund after losing a costly civil suit.

Oh, and no doubt the party objected most strenuously to the parliament’s slandering of the brave freedom fighters in the IRA. Not to mention the cheek of describing the community defenders as a ‘self-styled Irish Republican Army’. Doesn’t that pack of continental buffoons realize that Gerry and the peacemakers are the real Oglaigh na h-Eireann.


What’s that chanting I hear… ‘European oppression, European oppression, European oppression…’
Next we’ll have Martin telling us that Eurocrats are intent on undermining the ‘peace-process’.

seamus

If this goes through, it could pave the way for other similar groups to get funding/backing from the EU, namely the Omagh victim support. The IRA/Sinn Fein could be toppled by civil action!

Milo

Role on EU funding for the state sanctioned murders of Pat Finucane, Rosemary Nelson, the Dublin and Monaghan bombings families as well as the prosecution of people like Lee Clegg! Well done EU!!!!

Lets not stop there however...lets start providing EU funding for victiums of other terrorist acts like well the colonoisation of Africa and the Holocaust. Jaysus this is going to get expensive!

MT

seamus wrote:

If this goes through, it could pave the way for other similar groups to get funding/backing from the EU, namely the Omagh victim support. The IRA/Sinn Fein could be toppled by civil action!

Yes, it’s no wonder the SF are so hostile to the European Union. But, speaking of Sinn Fein, haven’t they been remarkably reticent over this development. Not their supporters in the North, however. They're almost incandescent with rage over this aid for the McCartney family.

Cast even the most casual glance over talkboards for NI and the theme of Republican comments becomes wearily familiar. Endless whataboutary – the most pervasive failing in a failed society. Apparently, this motion by the EU is to be condemned in Republican’s minds not because it doesn’t go far enough or anything like that but because there’s no balancing wording that seeks to screw over the other side equally as much. This, as usual, is par for the course in a place where all that matters is ethnic one-upmanship and tribal vendettas.

The message from northern Republicans to the EU seems to be – fúck off because the McCartneys are traitors deserving of all that we throw at them; fúck off because you didn’t target the Orange bastards, 'when are you gonna get the Unionists, whatabout the Unionists'; fúck off because this happened in our fiefdom and no one, not the European parliament, the PSNI or Free State bastard ministers have the right to poke their noses in our territory.

In their minds it seems that justice for Robert McCartney is a mere side issue in the Movement’s relentless drive for power. If this is any indication of what life will be like under a Sinn Fein government I think we can forget about justice and human rights.


More on this from RTÉ:

EP tables motion on IRA criminality

04 May 2005 17:01

Sinn Féin is to come under renewed pressure at next week's session of the European Parliament in Strasbourg.

Five political groups in the parliament today tabled a strongly worded resolution for next month's plenary session condemning IRA 'criminality and violence' and the murder of Robert McCartney.

The joint resolution is tabled by groups from across the political spectrum from the Socialist Group on the left to the centre right European People's Party.

The liberal ALDA and the UEN, of which Fianna Fáil is a member, have also signed the resolution.

The motion outlines the events surrounding the McCartney murder and points out that Sinn Féin has not called on those responsible or who witnessed the killing to co-operate fully and directly with the police.

It also deplores what it calls the whispering campaign aimed at discrediting the McCartney sisters and the dead man's fiancée.

The resolution says that if the PSNI cannot secure a conviction then the European Commission should help fund the McCartney sisters in any civil proceedings.

The five groups represent 627 of the 732 members of the European Parliament.

The European Left grouping, of which Sinn Féin's two MEPs are members, has not joined the resolution.

It will be the first item on the agenda at Monday's plenary session in the parliament.

RTÉ

Apparently, there are also moves afoot to impose sanctions on the two Sinn Fein MEPs due to the ongoing activities of the party’s private army, not to mention the entire movement’s appalling actions this past year.

Meh

Milo wrote:

Role on EU funding for the state sanctioned murders of Pat Finucane, Rosemary Nelson, the Dublin and Monaghan bombings families as well as the prosecution of people like Lee Clegg! Well done EU!!!!

Lets not stop there however...lets start providing EU funding for victiums of other terrorist acts like well the colonoisation of Africa and the Holocaust. Jaysus this is going to get expensive!

The European Court of Human Rights has found against the British Government in several cases related to Northern Ireland (Castlereagh detention centre, Gibraltar Three, Pat Finucane). So there for your whataboutery.

MT

Meh wrote:

The European Court of Human Rights has found against the British Government in several cases related to Northern Ireland (Castlereagh detention centre, Gibraltar Three, Pat Finucane). So there for your whataboutery.

The remarkable thing about the whingeing from Republicans on this - no doubt P O'Neill will waste little time penning a letter about his hurt feelings - is that it appears to ignore completely the great deal of help the EU has offered the North over the years in terms of financial aid. As you highlight, someone would be forgiven for assuming from the reaction of Republicans that the EU had a history of bias against them. Whereas, in truth it has attempted time and time again to take an impartial stance or as is the case here, rightly censure one tribe when they deserve it.


Similar reporting on this story from BreakingNews.ie:

Euro MPs want cash to convict McCartney murderers
04/05/2005 - 14:32:27

Euro-MPs overwhelmingly called for EU cash today to bring the murderers of Robert McCartney to justice.

An unprecedented motion adopted in Brussels demanded the use of EU budget money to back a civil action being planned by Mr McCartney’s sisters.

The motion will be debated in the European Parliament in Strasbourg on Monday - in the presence of the campaigning McCartney sisters who have already visited Brussels seeking EU backing.

Leaders of political groups representing 627 of the European Parliament’s 732 members have hammered out the terms of the motion at talks in Brussels.

Those refusing to join the call include the left-wing GUE group – which includes the two Sinn Féin MEPs.

The motion condemned “violence and criminality by the self-styled Irish Republican Army in Northern Ireland, in particular the murderers of Robert McCartney”.

The 33-year-old father of two was stabbed to death on January 30 in Belfast.

The nine-point motion includes a request – which requires European Commission approval – for the use of funds already set aside in the EU budget to help victims of terrorist acts.

Until now, that provision has never been applied to efforts to bring terrorist criminals to justice.

But the motion urges that “providing that the police service in Northern Ireland is unable to bring about a prosecution in relation to the murder of Robert McCartney, the European Union grants a financial contribution in conformity with the financial regulation toward the cost of the legal fees incurred by the McCartney family in their quest for justice by way of civil proceedings“.

Following Monday’s debate on the motion, the full Parliament will vote on Tuesday – almost certainly triggering the clearance of funds which would be crucial in the McCartney family’s ability to carry on fighting its case.

Sand

An excellent development. SF/IRA have been sneering because they know the McCartneys cant raise the cash to take their fight to the courts - they dont have 26 million sterling for one thing, but if the EU get involved the tables are seriously turned. I hope they get justice, but its all too predictable that theyll have to draw it from SF/IRA like blood from a stone.

MT

To illustrate just how much the McCartney ‘traitors’ are hated in the Republican heatlands of the North take a look at this story from about a month ago:

Adams is harangued over his support for McCartneys

GERRY Adams was harangued in a republican area of Belfast while canvassing in the UK general election because of his stance on the murder of father-of-two Robert McCartney, it was claimed yesterday.

Sources said the Sinn Fein president and former Belfast mayor Alex Maskey faced criticism from some people in the south of the city for supporting the McCartney family's demand for justice.

The confrontation took place in the Markets area, near the street where the 33-year-old forklift driver was brutally stabbed and beaten.

A man who claimed to have witnessed the events said: "Gerry Adams and Alex Maskey were confronted and barracked by several people about the stand they have taken.

"It was hot and heavy. The exchange of views was frank."

A party spokesman refused to comment on the reports of the confrontation.

Catherine McCartney responded cautiously to the reports. She said: "If people are criticising Sinn Fein for supporting the family, I have to say we have some criticism of how the party handled this too. They did not act quickly enough, decisively enough or efficiently against members.

Dan McGinn

Irish Independent

I think it illustrates how effective the Republican Movement’s whispering campaign of vilification against the courageous sisters has been. If only the foam flecks ranters in this instance had realised the truth – that Adams and Sinn Fein’s late conversion to ‘supporting’ the sisters is entirely two-faced – they wouldn’t have got so worked up in the first place.

Well, thankfully the EU funds will allow the sisters to at last take on the ranks of hate-filled Republicans and attain some measure of the justice for their brother they’ve been so callously denied.

MT

In the debate that was held last night Sinn Fein and its armed wing were condemned with scathing criticism by MEPs throughout the parliament. The party has truly become one of the pariahs of Europe alongside the likes of Jorge Haider and his band of Austrian fascists in the far-right Austrian Freedom Party. Clearly, it’s no coincidence that European democrats decided to censure both.

Here’s a report from the Guardian. Incidentally, this paper was once a strong sympathiser for Sinn Fein but has now turned against the party in the light of the refusal of its armed wing to decommission weapons and above all its continued involvement in murder and criminality.

McCartney family must have justice, say MEPs

Press Association
Tuesday May 10, 2005
The Guardian

Euro-MPs launched bitter attacks on Sinn Féin and the IRA last night over the murder of Robert McCartney.

They said his family deserved justice and demanded that the European Union fund a civil action to bring his killers to justice. It was also claimed that the current criminal police inquiry is thwarted by lack of cooperation.

The cross-party condemnation came in a debate in Strasbourg triggered by Mr McCartney's sisters' plea for help in breaking down walls of silence.

Three McCartney sisters -Gemma, Paula and Catherine - were in the public gallery of the Strasbourg chamber to hear overwhelming support for their campaign and strident demands for Sinn Féin and the "self-styled Irish Republican Army" to cooperate.

The leader of Ireland's Fine Gael MEPs, Avril Doyle, one of the key proposers of a joint motion urging the use of EU funds to back a civil legal action in Northern Ireland if necessary, said the McCartney family had conducted a "courageous, dignified and determined pursuit of justice".

She went on: "Robert McCartney's vicious beating and stabbing to death was ordered by a commander in the Belfast brigade of the Provisional IRA following a minor dispute between the commander's uncle and the group with which Mr McCartney was socialising.

"Robert McCartney was in the wrong place at the wrong time but this was no minor bar room brawl as some have disgracefully attempted to portray it. His was a serious and savage attack, which bore all the hallmarks of a politically motivated IRA murder." She said the killing was perpetrated by up to 12 killers, some members of the IRA.

She added: "It was ruthlessly supervised and forensically covered up by men announcing that their activities were IRA business, men who proceeded to intimidate the 70 witnesses to the crime and their families, first forbidding them from calling an ambulance, as Robert McCartney bled to death before their eyes, then warning them not to cooperate with the authorities."

The IRA's "barbaric" offer to shoot dead the perpetrators had been met with incredulity in the civilised world, she said.

MT

McCartney killer was a Sinn Féin treasurer, says MEP

By Ann Cahill, Europe Correspondent

THE killer of Robert McCartney was one of Sinn Féin’s official treasurers while the man who ordered the killing is frequently seen with leading IRA members in Belfast, the European Parliament was told last night.

The revelations were made by DUP MEP Jim Allister who also challenged three men at least two of them Sinn Féin members to come forward with evidence of the night's horrific events.

Sinn Féin's two MEPs, Bairbre De Brun and Mary Lou McDonald, sat quietly in the parliament as speaker after speaker described and condemned the horrific details of the Belfast man's murder last January.

Two of his sisters, Catherine and Paula, sat in the visitors' gallery as their courage was praised and support and funding for their campaign was promised by the political groups.

But the DUP's sole MEP, Jim Allister, held everybody's attention as he named names and blamed Sinn Féin for the murder of the 33-year-old father of two.

"By a hand signal, indicating a knife should be used, a member of the IRA's Northern Command gave the order to kill and a key Sinn Féin member savagely wielded the knife and butchered this innocent man, before multiple witnesses.

"An IRA unit, led by the volunteer who had fetched and then disposed of the knife, then co-ordinated a clean-up operation to destroy forensic and real evidence, including CCTV footage. Then, in classic IRA style, the intimidation brigade swung into action to silence the witnesses.

"Though the IRA and Sinn Féin claim to have expelled or suspended up to 10 members linked to this murder, their duplicity and double-dealing is amply illustrated by the fact that three months after the murder this cut-throat killer remained publicly proclaimed as one of Sinn Féin's official treasurers and the man who ordered the killing still struts the streets of Belfast in the company of the IRA's Chief of Intelligence, Bobby Storey and leading Provo, Eddie Copeland."

Dublin MEP Mary Lou McDonald said it was irresponsible of Mr Allister to name names as it could jeopardise a trial.

She said Sinn Féin was not involved in the murder.

Irish Examiner (10/5/05)

Mary Lou’s feigned concern for the outworking of any prospective trial is risible in its hypocrisy. Her party’s armed wing carried out the brutal murder in the first place. There’d be no need for a trial at all if the IRA had long ago been wound up as was expected in the ‘peace-process’.

Having butchered the man, members of the IRA set about destroying the evidence of the crime scene while high-ranking SF members in the bar averted their gaze. These were the very same SF members that decided to pull the old ‘I saw nothing’ routine when they could have given vital eyewitness accounts to the police. It was McDonald’s party that refused to take responsibility and call on those present in the bar to go to the police instead encouraging them to tell a priest. What help was this to the investigation.

Furthermore, what help was the whispering campaign instigated by the Republican Movement to sully the characters of the courageous McCartney sisters and portray them as a bunch of undeserving traitors. And finally, to top it all, having thwarted the police investigation from the outset, Sinn Fein has now played its favourite card – it’s all a conspiracy and they are the real victims. Yes, it’s almost as if Republicans had nothing whatsoever to do with McCartney’s slaying. Seemingly, their private army never rounded up the suspects and then in a medieval gesture attempted to implicate the sisters in a crime by offering to shoot them. No, apparently this whole outcry is nothing more than an anti-Sinn Fein conspiracy involving the press/police/unionists/SDLP/party politics/west Brits/Free State bastards/securocrats/George Bush and any other 'evil group of oppressors' you can care to think of. It’s yet another case of the persecution of the poor Republican martyrs.

Really, in the light of her party’s conduct during this barbarous affair she would have been better off trying to retain at least a shred of dignity by saying nothing. Especially, when her party/movement/armed wing ignored this murder hoping it would go away, then tried to cover it up and now claim it’s all some kind of conspiracy against them.

cdebru

MT wrote:

Mary Lou’s feigned concern for the outworking of any prospective trial is risible in its hypocrisy. Her party’s armed wing carried out the brutal murder in the first place. There’d be no need for a trial at all if the IRA had long ago been wound up as was expected in the ‘peace-process’.

Having butchered the man, members of the IRA set about destroying the evidence of the crime scene while high-ranking SF members in the bar averted their gaze. These were the very same SF members that decided to pull the old ‘I saw nothing’ routine when they could have given vital eyewitness accounts to the police. It was McDonald’s party that refused to take responsibility and call on those present in the bar to go to the police instead encouraging them to tell a priest. What help was this to the investigation.

Furthermore, what help was the whispering campaign instigated by the Republican Movement to sully the characters of the courageous McCartney sisters and portray them as a bunch of undeserving traitors. And finally, to top it all, having thwarted the police investigation from the outset, Sinn Fein has now played its favourite card – it’s all a conspiracy and they are the real victims. Yes, it’s almost as if Republicans had nothing whatsoever to do with McCartney’s slaying. Seemingly, their private army never rounded up the suspects and then in a medieval gesture attempted to implicate the sisters in a crime by offering to shoot them. No, apparently this whole outcry is nothing more than an anti-Sinn Fein conspiracy involving the press/police/unionists/SDLP/party politics/west Brits/Free State bastards/securocrats/George Bush and any other 'evil group of oppressors' you can care to think of. It’s yet another case of the persecution of the poor Republican martyrs.

Really, in the light of her party’s conduct during this barbarous affair she would have been better off trying to retain at least a shred of dignity by saying nothing. Especially, when her party/movement/armed wing ignored this murder hoping it would go away, then tried to cover it up and now claim it’s all some kind of conspiracy against them.

I presume you still believe in innocent untill proven guilty

throwing names around could damage the prospects of those people if they are charged recieving a fair trial
or could indeed lead to a mistrial which would not help the mccartney family in any way

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

uberwolf

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

so does the article quoted by MT.

From that telegraph article: "name three alleged Sinn Fein members" (emphasis mine.) funny phrasing .

Anywho - the whole point of the civil case is to remove the PSNI from the equation, SF and whomever can no longer claim that the reason for no one coming forward is an objection/fear of the PNSI because a civil case doesn't involve them at any stage.

If witnesses still don't come forward then it will be SF/IRA intimidation that is to blame - according to the McCartney sister I saw interviewed on RTE on the night in question.

All of which seems sound reasoning to me.

cdebru

uberwolf wrote:

so does the article quoted by MT.

From that telegraph article: "name three alleged Sinn Fein members" (emphasis mine.) funny phrasing .

Anywho - the whole point of the civil case is to remove the PSNI from the equation, SF and whomever can no longer claim that the reason for no one coming forward is an objection/fear of the PNSI because a civil case doesn't involve them at any stage.

If witnesses still don't come forward then it will be SF/IRA intimidation that is to blame - according to the McCartney sister I saw interviewed on RTE on the night in question.

All of which seems sound reasoning to me.

I dont have a problem with it either

i just think it would be stupid to give people an oppurtunity to get off by putting the names in the paper and saying he did this and he ordered the other get it in to court and get the evidence out there
rather than running the risk of someone getting of on a technicality because they could not get a fair trial like what happened to haughey

if they get convicted that will be time enough to print names etc if htey cant be prosecuted because of witness intimidation then name and shame but i dont think we are at that stage yet

hill16

What about the other families who have lost loved ones.
http://www.swp.ie/socialistworker/1998/sw82/socialistworker-82.htm#1

ishmael whale

hill16 wrote:

What about the other families who have lost loved ones.
http://www.swp.ie/socialistworker/1998/sw82/socialistworker-82.htm#1

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2710673&postcount=5

hill16

Why dont the EU fund the other campaigns.

Meh

hill16 wrote:

Why dont the EU fund the other campaigns.

Have the families involved in the other campaigns asked for financial help from the EU?

ishmael whale

While this would seem to be the first time that a European Parliament motion has been passed proposing funding for such a court action, there would not seem to be anything exclusive about their support. The statement by the President of the European Parliament below expresses a willingness to hear from anyone who has suffered injustice.

Incidently, have you some problem with this particular campaign being successful in seeking support from the Parliament? Or are you agreeing with Parliament giving its support to the McCartneys, and simply suggesting that other campaigns might follow their example?

http://www.eubusiness.com/afp/050406185520.llb356tl
“"On behalf of the European Parliament, I wish to express my full support to the campaign of the McCartney's sisters", President Josep Borrell said after meeting with three of them, Catherine, Paula and Gemma.

"The doors of the European Parliament will always be open to those who need a public tribute to fight any kind of injustice," he added.”

Sparks

hill16 wrote:

What about the other families who have lost loved ones.
http://www.swp.ie/socialistworker/1998/sw82/socialistworker-82.htm#1

Are you kidding? They've just lost loved ones and now you want them to pay for the McCartney's legal action? No, no, no. The EU paying is a far better idea.

ishmael whale

Hopefully this is leading somewhere.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0518/mccartneyr.html

Witnesses to McCartney death come forward

18 May 2005 12:09
A sister of the murdered Belfast man, Robert McCartney, has said more witnesses have come forward.

Paula McCartney said the family was confident something would happen sooner, rather than later.

Mr McCartney was stabbed in the throat and stomach on 30 January outside a Belfast city bar following a row with senior IRA men.

The identities of the chief suspects are known but nobody has been charged.

cdebru

the cynic in me says

wow the PSNI crack the case after the british general election when any political capital against the provisional movement is passed

but hopefully the end of the trauma for the family is in sight

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

cdebru

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

we all know that IRA and SF members were involved in the murder of robert mccartney
the problem was that the PSNI said that they did not have any evidence or witnesses and that witnesses were being intimidated

now after the election lo and behold the witnesses are available

ishmael whale

cdebru wrote:

we all know that IRA and SF members were involved in the murder of robert mccartney

Gasp. Could we yet see the day when SF supporters acknowledge that SF and the IRA share much the same leadership. Or does that require a higher standard of proof than the McCartney case?

cdebru

ishmael whale wrote:

Gasp. Could we yet see the day when SF supporters acknowledge that SF and the IRA share much the same leadership. Or does that require a higher standard of proof than the McCartney case?

gasp i said IRA and sinn fein members not the IRA/SF

and if you search back you will see that i have said in the past that i believe either adams and mcguiness are in charge of the PIRA or have people they basically control in charge of it for them

that does not mean that the PIRA and PSF are the same organisation which they clearly are not

and gasp again I dont consider myself to be A PSF supporter

ishmael whale

cdebru wrote:

i have said in the past that i believe either adams and mcguiness are in charge of the PIRA ....that does not mean that the PIRA and PSF are the same organisation...I dont consider myself to be A PSF supporter

Fair enough, that's actually a fair amount of common ground.