ASBOs

gregos

What do you think of the introduction of ASBOs? My own opinion is that we need something like that. Years ago I would have regarded them as an awful infringement of civil liberties, but now I'm so sick of scobies and dirtbags that I'm willing to give up a bit of my freedom.

BarHog27

We have them over here, and the scobes wear them like a badge of honour. Although they're called Chavs where I live, and they drink Turbo Shandies, lol

billy the squid

moved to Politics as this is more of a nationwide thing
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=99

simu

I don't think they'll be of much long term benefit. Unless you have adequate social services to try and help say, teenagers change their ways after receiving such orders, they will just become another rite of passage for troubled youths. The disadvantages of ABSOs have been discussed quite a bit in England but yet we seem to be ready to copy the scheme without considering these.

Quantum

We desperately need ASBO's here. They work extremely well for local people in the UK, and though we have something a tiny bit similar, they carry only a fraction of the weight that ASBO's do in the UK.

Local people need to be rescued from the kind of anti social scum that make their lives a misery every day.

Sand

I welcome them, my reservations purely being related to them being meaningless unless theyre enforced which requires a little more followup than the Irish system seems capable of.

I really cant grasp why people would oppose them. Its not like I can see what theyre disagreeing with and think, well thats a point, but I dont agree its an issue. Its literally where do these people come from? What planet or alternate dimension do they call home? We're seeing kids -literally kids - coming before the courts with hundreds of crimes to their name. A police force that cant prosecute kids for crimes that whilst are relatively petty add up to destroy communities. Slapping an ASBO on them early on and literally forcing them to conform to expected standards of behaviour if their parents are incapable of teaching them those standards might do them a lot more good than well meant handwringing.

There just seems to be lobby groups with a knee jerk reaction against anything that even seems like law enforcement.

RagShagBill

It is really in principle that I disagree with them. Although the potential for injustice is present in every system, it is more likely to occur when the courts can be taken out of the equation.

That said, I don't see much problem with them in practice. The courts are being clogged up with scumbag youths (and yes, they are scumbags, it may not be their fault, but they are). They have been effective in the UK, and I believe the figure of ASBOs made last year was only about 1,000. They are certainly a better idea than the Tories plans! (Lock up the parents for the weekend, WTF?)

I favour them, as long as they are made with caution, and come with a rehabilitation and education requirement. I don't see prison as being effective at all, did you know that to cut crime rates by 1%, you need to increase the prison population by 25% (that's in England, not sure about Ireland). It's lunacy that prison is still the primary result of a guilty conviction.

dK1NG

gregos wrote:

What do you think of the introduction of ASBOs? My own opinion is that we need something like that. Years ago I would have regarded them as an awful infringement of civil liberties, but now I'm so sick of scobies and dirtbags that I'm willing to give up a bit of my freedom.

the classical 'the innocent have nothing to fear' argument carries no weight here! What about the person who answered her front door in her underwear? Or the person who sang 'Do they know its christmas' over and over? Or the 15 year old who played ball in the street? Or the 87 year old who was sarcastic to his neighbours?
All ASBOed!!!!!

its the inappropriate use of these orders that has led to a lot of criticism in the UK, not to mention the fact that ASBOs are a form of criminalisation by the back door.

simu wrote:

The disadvantages of ABSOs have been discussed quite a bit in England but yet we seem to be ready to copy the scheme without considering these.

To be fair to McDowell, he did take into account some of the most pressing concerns about the UK system, and the Irish system of civil orders (note, the term ASBOs is not used in Ireland, but we're less than a week in and its already been adopted by media, politicians, the public etc) is quite different from the UK approach. For example, there are lesser penalties for breach of the order; only a garda of high rank can apply for an ASBO, as opposed to local housing authorities, landlords etc in England; ASBOs are (intended, at least) to be a measure of last resort iiin Ireland, particularly for kids, whereas in the UK they are seen as the first solution

Quantum wrote:

We desperately need ASBO's here. They work extremely well for local people in the UK, and though we have something a tiny bit similar, they carry only a fraction of the weight that ASBO's do in the UK.

Local people need to be rescued from the kind of anti social scum that make their lives a misery every day.

Agreed that there is a lot of scum around these days, but there is no evidence to suggest that ASBOs are the solution.
Certainly, the UK approach cannot be used as a justification, where ASBOs have been an utmost failure in their objective - i.e. to combat 'anti-social behaviour'!

Sand wrote:

I really cant grasp why people would oppose them. Its not like I can see what theyre disagreeing with and think, well thats a point, but I dont agree its an issue. Its literally where do these people come from? What planet or alternate dimension do they call home? We're seeing kids -literally kids - coming before the courts with hundreds of crimes to their name. A police force that cant prosecute kids for crimes that whilst are relatively petty add up to destroy communities. Slapping an ASBO on them early on and literally forcing them to conform to expected standards of behaviour if their parents are incapable of teaching them those standards might do them a lot more good than well meant handwringing.

reminiscent of the Labour MP who labelled critics of the ASBO system as (to paraphrase) "Guardian reading middle class **** who make a good living and do not live in the blighted areas"

again, this is bull! while it may sound good in theory, it doesnt always ring true. I come from a RAPID area, and would be opposed to the introduction of ASBOs as operated in the UK; it remains to be seen whether the changes adopted in Ireland will make much of a difference, but first impressions suggest that ASBOs in Ireland will be used to circumvent the criminal process (witness certain families engaged in blatantly criminal behaviour in local authority estates being called in on 02/01/07 to be warned that unless they discontinue their activities they will be given a warning which could eventually lead to an ASBO - yeah, like thats going to work.... LOCK THE B*ASTARDS UP, forget about warnings, and more warnings etc)

Sand wrote:

There just seems to be lobby groups with a knee jerk reaction against anything that even seems like law enforcement.

or is it a knee-jerk solution, a quick "fix", introduced in this election year (how convenient!)

RagShagBill wrote:

It is really in principle that I disagree with them. Although the potential for injustice is present in every system, it is more likely to occur when the courts can be taken out of the equation.

That said, I don't see much problem with them in practice. The courts are being clogged up with scumbag youths (and yes, they are scumbags, it may not be their fault, but they are). They have been effective in the UK, and I believe the figure of ASBOs made last year was only about 1,000. They are certainly a better idea than the Tories plans! (Lock up the parents for the weekend, WTF?)

In principle, I would agree with them - something needs to be done about this problem.
However, based on the practice in the UK, and the initial use of them here in Ireland, I would be inclined to oppose them. They are being blatantly misused, and the argument that they have been successful in the UK offers no support to their use - has ASB actually decreased since their introduction in 1999?? NO!!


Just my 2c



Another thread on ASBOs:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055033204

sovtek

Sand wrote:

We're seeing kids -literally kids - coming before the courts with hundreds of crimes to their name. A police force that cant prosecute kids for crimes that whilst are relatively petty add up to destroy communities..

Yes lets stick kids in jail so they'll come out well behaved citizens. It doesn't have anything to do with there being nothing for kids to do besides sitting on the dirty uneven pavement and sniff glue.

John_C

sovtek wrote:

Yes lets stick kids in jail so they'll come out well behaved citizens. It doesn't have anything to do with there being nothing for kids to do besides sitting on the dirty uneven pavement and sniff glue.

That's hardly true, every sporting organisation is crying out for new players as are the scouts and cultural groups.

There's as much for kids to do now (if not a lot more) that there was when I was younger.

Macy

Sand wrote:

We're seeing kids -literally kids - coming before the courts with hundreds of crimes to their name. A police force that cant prosecute kids for crimes that whilst are relatively petty add up to destroy communities. Slapping an ASBO on them early on and literally forcing them to conform to expected standards of behaviour if their parents are incapable of teaching them those standards might do them a lot more good than well meant handwringing.

Won't they just come to court for breaching an ASBO, just another crime to add to the list, and then the cycle is started anyway? If you're seeing this as some fix all for the justice system I think you'll be disappointed, as the only sanction for breaches is to go back into that system.

sovtek

John_C wrote:

That's hardly true, every sporting organisation is crying out for new players as are the scouts and cultural groups.

There's as much for kids to do now (if not a lot more) that there was when I was younger.

Not everyone's a jock

Boston

Sand wrote:

I really cant grasp why people would oppose them. Its not like I can see what theyre disagreeing with and think, well thats a point, but I dont agree its an issue. Its literally where do these people come from? What planet or alternate dimension do they call home? We're seeing kids -literally kids - coming before the courts with hundreds of crimes to their name. A police force that cant prosecute kids for crimes that whilst are relatively petty add up to destroy communities. Slapping an ASBO on them early on and literally forcing them to conform to expected standards of behaviour if their parents are incapable of teaching them those standards might do them a lot more good than well meant handwringing.

Pretending to do something tbh. The more pretending you do the less faith people have in the system. If there was a strong enough presense by the gardi in communities to enforce these civil orders, there wouldn't be much of a need for them in the first place.

Where I live, the local scum kids always got a kicking of the gardi. Never stoped them being scum, never changed them. So punishment isn't a solution. It's a stop gap.

brianthebard

sovtek wrote:

Not everyone's a jock

There's been a bigger drive to get young people involved in music both by the government and other bodies in recent years, CCE being an example.

Dontico

ASBOs are a lazy way of tackling a problem. i dont see why we should arrest people for being young. community service ahould be the max punishment for thier "crimes". gives back to society plus teaches them responsibility.

sovtek

brianthebard wrote:

There's been a bigger drive to get young people involved in music both by the government and other bodies in recent years, CCE being an example.

I'm not familiar with these programs and that's great that it's being done...but it seems hardly enough.I know when I lived off Thomas Street there is nothing but grimey concrete around and no place in the neighborhood to play. That's what I'm refering to. I believe ASBO's will greatly effect the community described in a negative way.

plonk

Im not too sure about them tbh. I was in court recently for a public order offence. The problem is I didnt do anything really wrong, my mate did. I was waiting for a taxi the guards asked me to leave I told them I was getting a taxi they told me to walk home (well they didnt care how i got home just as long as i ****ed off) I didnt stupidly and they brought me to court.


The thing I dont like about this is when I was in court the judge took it fairly seriously but yet people speeding and drink driving were given a small fine even though they could of killed someone and I was just waiting for a taxi and I get treated like Im worse than them.

If i got an asbo for that IMO it wouldnt be very fair.

Sand

Back from the dead...

To be fair to McDowell, he did take into account some of the most pressing concerns about the UK system,......I come from a RAPID area, and would be opposed to the introduction of ASBOs as operated in the UK;

Well, by your own admission theyre different. Reference to the UK isnt especially helpful. The UK police warn about areas being taken over by feral [their term] youths, and Id hope were not quite that bad yet. Well, maybe areas in Limerick arent too far off it either.

or is it a knee-jerk solution, a quick "fix", introduced in this election year (how convenient!)

Wouldnt say its all that kneejerk given this thread is from 2005. Certainly offers a better option for people than the usual vigilante style suggestions handed out when people post complaining that their lives are being ruined by some gang of scumbags in the estate they live in.

If there was a strong enough presense by the gardi in communities to enforce these civil orders, there wouldn't be much of a need for them in the first place.

Theres 14,000 or so gardai policing 4.5 million or so people with a relatively low population density, whilst tending to prioritise crimes like murder, drug dealing and rape. They dont tend to scramble the ERU everytime someone reports that their house was stoned. Theres a need for a system of dealing with low intensity crime - the current system only shows young scumbags that the worst they have to fear is a stern talking to from a judge. It also demonstrates to ordinary people that there is practically no point reporting crime.

Won't they just come to court for breaching an ASBO, just another crime to add to the list, and then the cycle is started anyway?

Then theyll be imprisoned and will be prevented from carrying out the behaviour that led to the ASBO in the first place? Worst case, they simply get where they were going to faster and get taken out of circulation quicker?

Yes lets stick kids in jail so they'll come out well behaved citizens. It doesn't have anything to do with there being nothing for kids to do besides sitting on the dirty uneven pavement and sniff glue.

No, lets tell kids "Do that again, and your jailed". A) They do it again, and simply get taken out of circulation quicker. They dont do it again.

The current situation is "Dont do that ever again!" They do it again, and get told "Dont do that ever again, I really mean it this time!". Until of course they graduate to serious crime and murder someone whilst robbing a mobile phone. Someone being jailed for an ASBO before they get around to stabbing some kid might be a better option than waiting until after the crime. Prevention is better than cure?

The worst thing that can said about ASBOs is that scumbags will go to jail.... Im sorry, Im not opposed to the idea of scumbags being punished tbh. Better them than their community. Victims have rights too, allegedly anyway.

And there is a hell of a lot for kids to do depending on their interests, but maybe if you tell them enough times there isnt theyll start believing you? The concept of "dont blame the criminal, blame society" is hard to stomach. It implies that everyone from any given "bad" area is either a criminal, or a criminal who hasnt been caught yet. Theyre all from the same area, and exposed to the same amenities or lack thereof. Hence, there are no criminals from Foxrock.

Unless of course, the difference between criminals and honest people from any given area is that some people choose to commit crime, and some people dont?

If i got an asbo for that IMO it wouldnt be very fair.

Probably not, but you didnt?