Vintners Monopoly to be broken...finally

sovtek

Calina wrote:

It's not only kids that think it's great to get trashed out on alcohol, unless you include people over the age of 25 - I work with more than a few.

This country doesn't do zero tolerance very well and as far as alcohol is concerned its record is shameful (cars, drink...)

Point out a case where there is "zero tolerance" to alcohol and it was a solution to problem drinking?
Why do places like Germany or France not have the same problem, yet have very lax laws with regards to drinking?

Calina

Zero tolerance of drink driving isn't very zero, is it? It's not just a law enforcement thing - it's a community enforcement thing. I.E. we are too accepting of drunks. Stop being accepting of drunks - ie make it socially unacceptable - then you can have all the lax laws you like. BTW, alcohol carries a health warning on it in France as opposed to the voluntary "Enjoy XXX sensibly" which is so entertaining here.

Past experience of living in France and Germany is that people there don't consider it a mark of pride to get completely locked out of their minds. Some people here do. Quite a lot, actually. You can put all the laws in the world in place but without a corresponding attitude change, they are not going to work. I wasn't - in case you didn't notice - arguing for zero tolerance, purely because the prevailing attitudes to drink here mean it would be doomed to failure. Prohibition in the States is a nice example of that.

sovtek

Calina wrote:

Zero tolerance of drink driving isn't very zero, is it? It's not just a law enforcement thing - it's a community enforcement thing. I.E. we are too accepting of drunks. Stop being accepting of drunks - ie make it socially unacceptable - then you can have all the lax laws you like. BTW, alcohol carries a health warning on it in France as opposed to the voluntary "Enjoy XXX sensibly" which is so entertaining here.

I thought you were refering to licencing, opening hours etc etc as well. Apologies.
From my experience I find drink driving here is considered a no no. Of course people are doing it, especially where there is inadequate public transport...which is the key to lower the rate along with enforcement measures.
I don't the legal system as being too tolerant either.

Past experience of living in France and Germany is that people there don't consider it a mark of pride to get completely locked out of their minds. Some people here do. Quite a lot, actually. You can put all the laws in the world in place but without a corresponding attitude change, they are not going to work. I wasn't - in case you didn't notice - arguing for zero tolerance, purely because the prevailing attitudes to drink here mean it would be doomed to failure. Prohibition in the States is a nice example of that.

Sorry I misunderstood your post to mean that you were for "zero tolerance" measures.
Incidentally I think the attitude needs to change as well.
My opinion is there needs to be several changes to facilitate that. The main change I see is getting rid of the "nanny state" mentality. I believe that's one reason that the Continent enjoys less of a problem..ie they are given the freedom to choose..therefore they know how and do handle the freedom responsibly. In fact every country I've been in that has relaxed laws also enjoys similar attitudes toward drinking.
Another thing is there isn't a whole lot to do other than drink, especially for kids and teenagers. What there is to do is often very expensive.
I think the new licence is a step in the right direction...but obviously far more needs to be done. I would love to see the Competition Authority raiding the Vintners Association for one.

murphaph

The Germans get pi$$ed with the best of us, especially down south. The Japanese too in my experience in Tokyo anyway, yet no widespread anti-social behaviour. It's us lads and ladettes. It's the Irish, we're just like our neighbours when it comes to booze fueled misbehaviour. I agree that misbehaving because you've imbibed too much should not be tolerated, but I disagree with making it illegal to be intoxicated in public. That alone does not harm anyone (however should you step in front of a car whilst inder the influence-tough!).

sovtek

murphaph wrote:

The Germans get pi$$ed with the best of us, especially down south. The Japanese too in my experience in Tokyo anyway, yet no widespread anti-social behaviour. It's us lads and ladettes. It's the Irish

Are you saying you think that it's some Irish gene? Or do you think it's more likely that the Germans and Japanese don't have such a restrictive attitude towards alcohol and that they act more responsibly because of it?

Calina

From my experience I find drink driving here is considered a no no. Of course people are doing it

if it were that much of a no-no, people wouldn't be doing it no matter what their excuse.

murphaph

sovtek wrote:

Are you saying you think that it's some Irish gene? Or do you think it's more likely that the Germans and Japanese don't have such a restrictive attitude towards alcohol and that they act more responsibly because of it?

I don't know for sure but I think it's in our 'culture'. Perhaps it is genetic, perhaps the Vikings are to blame. The Scandinavians have historically blamed virtually all their woes on alcohol and have had extraordinarily tight restrictions on it's sale and consumption (In Sweden you can only buy alcohol from state-owned shops which have very restrictive opening hours etc. It's also taxed very highly and the strongest beer allowed is Klass III @ something like 4.5% alc. by vol.). We need to 'grow up' wrt booze but don't ask me how we're going to do it. There are too many muppets here and in the UK too. I don't know how restrictive the japanese are (I've only been there on business and I never got to talk about it with anyone) but the German attitude might be worth a shot. I definitely think that thousands of drunken muppets (I get pi$$ed myself but I don't make a clown of myself afterwards) spilling out of pubs and clubs at the same time is a big catalyst in the problem. In Germany some pubs open early and close late, others open late and close late etc. The cafe-bar idea is good IMHO, but only if the licences are cheap because otherwise the landlords will have to open for as long as possible to make any money. You'll often find that landlords in German towns just close up whenever it gets quiet, be it 2, 3 or 7am.

HelterSkelter

PaschalNee wrote:

I’d encourage you to fire up your email client, send an email to licensing_consultation@justice.ie and let the department know what you think of this proposed legislation one way or another. Even something as simple as “As a member of the public I am for/against this because X, Y and Z – J. Doe, Dublin 9”.

I just want to add that it would be really worthwhile for everyone to email with their opinion. Some of you might think that it's a waste of time but I can tell you it is not, and if enough of the public make the same point it will be listened to. If any of you remember the MIAB report I know for a fact the board were infulenced by the huge amount of emails they received from MIJAG members (www.mijag.com).

sovtek

Calina wrote:

if it were that much of a no-no, people wouldn't be doing it no matter what their excuse.

I disagree. I'm from Texas and we have VERY serious laws against DWI, yet everyone I know has/does it...myself included. You don't just risk loosing your DL there you are in serious risk of going to jail and at best you will be hit with a fine of a few thousand dollars and loose your DL. Cops pull you over at the drop of a hat so it's not like they aren't enforced.
Still the attitude there isn't near as harsh toward drunk driving as I find it here.
In my opinion I think it's somewhat human nature. People are always going to drink and have to get home somehow. From my experience where there is more access to public transport the less people drink and drive.
Now I'm not saying that excuses it by any means...I think there should be DWI laws enforced (although I don't agree with the Texas laws that criminalise people) as well as good public transport (besides it's many other benefits).

Calina

Sovtek,

if it were socially unacceptable - regardless of the legislation - people wouldn't do it. That's what I mean by a no no. It is something you *don't* do, full stop. If people are doing it - then it hasn't got anything like enough of a social stigma.

sovtek

Calina wrote:

Sovtek,

if it were socially unacceptable - regardless of the legislation - people wouldn't do it. That's what I mean by a no no. It is something you *don't* do, full stop. If people are doing it - then it hasn't got anything like enough of a social stigma.

People use anti-social behavior all the time...no matter how harsh the legislation or social consequences.
If there isn't a better alternative then people are probably going to drink and drive...then it's probably going to be somewhat socially acceptable...although unspoken.
If there is then there probably isn't going to be as much tolerance for it.
Either way people are always going to drink and drive...it's a matter of cutting down the number that do.

murphaph

sovtek wrote:

I disagree. I'm from Texas and we have VERY serious laws against DWI, yet everyone I know has/does it...myself included. You don't just risk loosing your DL there you are in serious risk of going to jail and at best you will be hit with a fine of a few thousand dollars and loose your DL. Cops pull you over at the drop of a hat so it's not like they aren't enforced.
Still the attitude there isn't near as harsh toward drunk driving as I find it here.
In my opinion I think it's somewhat human nature. People are always going to drink and have to get home somehow. From my experience where there is more access to public transport the less people drink and drive.
Now I'm not saying that excuses it by any means...I think there should be DWI laws enforced (although I don't agree with the Texas laws that criminalise people) as well as good public transport (besides it's many other benefits).

Is DWI driving whilst intoxicated? I always thought it was driving without insurance and DUI was driving under the influence. You learn summat new every day! Interesting that you called it 'Drunk Driving'. It hasn't been called that here for years.

sovtek

murphaph wrote:

Is DWI driving whilst intoxicated? I always thought it was driving without insurance and DUI was driving under the influence. You learn summat new every day! Interesting that you called it 'Drunk Driving'. It hasn't been called that here for years.

"....but you know what I like the most..it's the little differences"

Vincent Vega

Sapiens

Last year, a premises was converted from a butchers to a public house on Baggott Street in Dublin. The owner applied for a licence but was blocked in the High Court by the Waterloo and Searsons amongst others.
The judge ruled there were sufficient pubs in the area. Now, here`s my problem with that and McDowell s attempt to protect the pub licence value............
Pub licences are issued by the state.
High court refused licence in Baggott St.
Taxi licences are issued by the state.
High court ruled Minister had no right to refuse to issue state issued taxi licence.
Whats wrong with this picture??????????
McDowell stated he wanted to secure some value on pub licences so the cafe bar licence must have a cafe menu and not operate as a pub.
Taxi licences are €127 for wheelchair access from £60k.

We now have 11739 taxis in Dublin. In 2000, the transport problems were heaped squarely on the taxi drivers shoulders, and we were promised better transport with extra taxis and the arrival of the LUAS. Where is it? Mad Cow roundabout, M50 car park,queues at taxi ranks on Fri/Sat @ 4.00am .........

Whats wrong with this picture???????????

Villain

Did anyone read the reports about several back benchers bing opposed to this idea at the weekend, I missed the papers on sunday.

Also McDowell was on the last word last night and when asked about the back benchers revolt against asbo's and cafe bars, he only commented on the asbo's.

mike65

Bertie has just undermined the policy by declaring "eh, its not set in stone, eh" ie back benchers kicking up a fuss. They really are total cretins.

Mike.

murphaph

mike65 wrote:

They really are total cretins.

Yup. I'm a democrat at heart, but a good ole Saddam style dictatorship would be interesting. Remember that footage when he took over the Iraqi parliament and had his enemies hauled out to a shallow grave..........There are plenty of tossers in there that wouldn't be missed one iota. Best not forget the incase I'm taken seriously.

Sapiens

Obviously theres nothing wrong with the picture..............

MadsL

Last year, a premises was converted from a butchers to a public house on Baggott Street in Dublin. The owner applied for a licence but was blocked in the High Court by the Waterloo and Searsons amongst others.
The judge ruled there were sufficient pubs in the area. Now, here`s my problem with that and McDowell s attempt to protect the pub licence value............

And is now a very successful wine bar that does very good reasonable food and excellent wine. What is ridiculous is that they cannot sell beer or spirits.

magpie

McDowell was in the papers yesterday saying to the Vintners (and this is my paraphrasing) "Stop being such whiney little bitches about my cafe bars, or I'll bring in a law that really demolishes your little cartel by allowing anyone get a pub licence"

Villain

I wonder did McDowell know the number of publicans or people who support publicans that sit on the benches behind him in the Dail, Bertie would be under severe pressure if he let McDowell have this one.

Heard an interesting fact yesterday: 85% of all current pubs are under the size of the new proposed cafe bar's size! More bar's = more places drink, the young people will still go and get locked in the clubs and large bar's.

Next wonderful idea please Michael, oh and any chance of tackling gun crime, cheers.

irish1

irish1 wrote:

Next wonderful idea please Michael, oh and any chance of tackling gun crime, cheers.

I'm not sure if McDowell reads this forum but I do know that he was loud in his praise of the Gardaí's recent Lusk operation and iirc there are plans afoot regarding a gun amnesty
BTW what is SF policy on café bars and do any SF politicians own pubs?

Villain

Earthman wrote:

I'm not sure if McDowell reads this forum but I do know that he was loud in his praise of the Gardaí's recent Lusk operation and iirc there are plans afoot regarding a gun amnesty
BTW what is SF policy on café bars and do any SF politicians own pubs?

I haven't a clue what Sinn Fein's policy is on cafe bars is, I am speaking about my opinion on the situation, but most people here reckon SF and the IRA are the one so they'll probably tell you about all the bar's and hotels the IRA own, the number is in the hundreds I believe but hey they could always buy a few cafe bar's too

Cianos

Calina wrote:

Past experience of living in France and Germany is that people there don't consider it a mark of pride to get completely locked out of their minds. Some people here do. Quite a lot, actually

Why do you think that may be? Maybe that alcohol is still such a taboo here as anything else. Maybe the mark of pride that Irish people strive for through alcohol consumption is to do with the fact that from their early teens they have been trying to get locked to "beat the system"? If we abolished age limits on drinking, in a few years I guarantee attitudes would be completely different.

i71jskz5xu42pb

irish1 wrote:

Did anyone read the reports about several back benchers bing opposed to this idea at the weekend, I missed the papers on sunday.

That would be here , I guess

Sapiens

MadsL wrote:

And is now a very successful wine bar that does very good reasonable food and excellent wine. What is ridiculous is that they cannot sell beer or spirits.

NO, what is ridiculus is the High Court refused the state issued licence despite the earlier High Court ruling that the state could not restrict the issue of taxi lincences as they were state issued?????????????? Why is the law not equal??????????????/

sceptre

Sapiens wrote:

NO, what is ridiculus is the High Court refused the state issued licence despite the earlier High Court ruling that the state could not restrict the issue of taxi lincences as they were state issued?????????????? Why is the law not equal??????????????/

I'm not familiar with either case really at all (I assume the taxi licence case is Hempenstall v Minister for the Environment from about 1994 or 1995, no idea about the pub one, I didn't know there was one). If it is Hempenstall, that case was about the lifting of the restriction on the number of taxi licences under new regulations in 1992 which the plaintiffs objected to on the grounds that it affected the value of their property given that they already owned some. Two findings as there were two bases for the case: first that taxi licences are property rights with value (upheld, mostly because they are, on both counts), secondly that the lifting of the restrictions (and implicitly, the lowering of value of the pre-existing licences) constituted an unjust attack those rights (not upheld as the court held that the property rights inherent in the licences are creatures of legislation and what legislation giveth, legislation taketh away, though obviously that's not a direct quote, and basically, tough). I'm completely unaware of pub licences and how they're granted except for a little knowledge (very little) of the acts pertaining to clubs, which wouldn't be relevant here, so I've little idea of how they work but I'm unaware of any lifting of the number of licences that can be granted (someone please inform me if there has already been such a change) so if this is the current situation the two cases not only can be distinguished but must be distinguished. But as I say, I'm not familiar with the pub case or even that there was one and pretty much everything I know about the taxi case I've typed above.

Either way, not necessarily the same thing unless someone can show me (well not me, some judge somewhere) that they're the same thing. But I see where you're coming from. And it's still ridiculous that they can't sell beer or a nice glass of Talisker.

mike65

from sunday times

CONTROVERSIAL plans to introduce cafe bar licences are to be dropped following a revolt by backbench Fianna Fail TDs. Michael McDowell, the minister for justice, has agreed to scrap his proposal to issue more licences in return for a promise to liberalise restaurant drink permits instead.

The compromise was reached after talks between the Progressive Democrat minister and Bertie Ahern, the taoiseach. McDowell had championed the proposed change in the licencing regime, which he believed would encourage a moderate approach to drinking by encouraging Irish people to eat while they drink.

Fianna Fail backbenchers, with ties to local publicans, opposed the introduction of further competition to a business that has already been hurt by the smoking ban.

Mike.

murphaph

:rolleyes: Welcome the Republic of the Banana :rolleyes:

magpie

What a load of sh1t