Sinn Féin - various articles and discussion. [merged thread]

Sand

the DUP want power so do SF both sides know that with out each other they can not have it

The DUP *have* power precisely because they wont do a deal with SF/IRA. Only a few years ago the DUP were being sneered at openly by the UUP as extremist losers and nobodies. Now they have just annialated the UUP. SF/IRA do not live up to their end of any deal. It is political suicide to do a deal with them. Ask Trimble.

the IRA will go away there will be a decontamination period although SF wont call it that in which we will see if the IRA has indeed gone away

The IRA will never go away. SF is the IRA ffs. The whole provo movement is physical force republicanism - thats what differentiates them from peaceful nationalism like the SDLP. SF/IRA have consistently delivered nothing but empty promises. Theyre still around, theyre still armed, theyre still active, theyre still recruiting, theyre still training. This is after 10 years of peace!!!!

And what, theyre going to go away now? Maybe this plays well at the local SF/IRA meeting but the DUP arent going to slit their throats for SF/IRA promises. They had a very, very, very lucky escape at December. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

DUP have shown that despite what they say at election time they are prepared to do a deal

And unionist voters have shown they will punish any party that allows an unreformed SF/IRA to govern them. If the DUP abandon their manifesto, theyll be annialated in turn at the next elections and some other fringe fanatice party will become the new face of unionism. The DUP know this. They also know that SF/IRA are liars.

it is only a matter of time

It really is sad how badly you guys dont get it. You cant provide a single reason why Unionist voters would suddenly about face and support move to engage with SF/IRA when SF/IRA have consistently demonstrated they do not live up to their end of the bargain. SF/IRA got greedy. They killed the peace proccess. And sadly you guys cant fix the peace proccess because your martyred mindset refuses to allow you to see the problem in the first place.

Seriously, why do you guys think the UUP got annialated? Because they *didnt* go into power with SF/IRA? Are you that blind?

sceptre

the_syco wrote:

Thought that pipe bomb was put there by dissedent republicans

He only repudiated[1] it, not condemned it.

[1]dictionary.com definition

cdebru

Sand wrote:

The DUP *have* power precisely because they wont do a deal with SF/IRA. Only a few years ago the DUP were being sneered at openly by the UUP as extremist losers and nobodies. Now they have just annialated the UUP. SF/IRA do not live up to their end of any deal. It is political suicide to do a deal with them. Ask Trimble. ?

that is not power
if that is power then sinn fein have power as well because they can equally stop the dup

you obviously have not read what i wrote there will be new assembly elections so that the dup can say the deal has been approved

besides that who will be sniping at the dup the way the dup sniped at the uup certainly not the uup

Sand wrote:

The IRA will never go away. SF is the IRA ffs. The whole provo movement is physical force republicanism - thats what differentiates them from peaceful nationalism like the SDLP. SF/IRA have consistently delivered nothing but empty promises. Theyre still around, theyre still armed, theyre still active, theyre still recruiting, theyre still training. This is after 10 years of peace!!!!

And what, theyre going to go away now? Maybe this plays well at the local SF/IRA meeting but the DUP arent going to slit their throats for SF/IRA promises. They had a very, very, very lucky escape at December. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.?

ok the ira is not sf but that is another arguement
if the IRA is SF then do you believe that SF should dissolve itself come on for FS
and we have all heard this rubbish beforethey will never call a ceasefire they did they will never decommission they did they will never go away they will
because logic determines they have to


the IRA will go away it has always been adams and co intention to rid themselves of the IRA when the time is right but to garner as much political pull out of the IRA whilst they still existed
it now suits SF to get rid of the IRA they are not involved in a military campaign why would they want to hang on to them when at the moment all they are is a mill stone around their necks there is no political advantage to holdng on to them
as i have said all political parties want power SF know that not only is their way blocked by the IRA in the 6 counties it is also blocked in the 26counties

Sand wrote:

And unionist voters have shown they will punish any party that allows an unreformed SF/IRA to govern them. If the DUP abandon their manifesto, theyll be annialated in turn at the next elections and some other fringe fanatice party will become the new face of unionism. The DUP know this. They also know that SF/IRA are liars.?

well again you did not read my post the IRA will be wound up we will have an unofficial decontamination period to check the bona fides of the republican movement SF will probably at that stage take seats on the policing boards
and again the DUP will insist on fresh assembly elections so the unionist people will approve4 the deal
also all the dissenting voices in unionism in relation to sharing power with SF are all in the DUP camp now they will not have the sniping that the UUP had

Sand wrote:

It really is sad how badly you guys dont get it. You cant provide a single reason why Unionist voters would suddenly about face and support move to engage with SF/IRA when SF/IRA have consistently demonstrated they do not live up to their end of the bargain. SF/IRA got greedy. They killed the peace proccess. And sadly you guys cant fix the peace proccess because your martyred mindset refuses to allow you to see the problem in the first place.

Seriously, why do you guys think the UUP got annialated? Because they *didnt* go into power with SF/IRA? Are you that blind?

personally i think it is really sad how much you dont get it politicians become politicians to attain power and implement their policies
for SF they would prefer that in a united Ireland but they will accept stormont because that is all that is available to them right now
the DUp would prefer tha t they could go back to the old stormont and majority rule but that is not available so they will go with what is ie the GFA

remember the DUP uttered all this nonsense in 2003 at the assembly elections they were going to destroy the GFA never never never then again at the euro elections but then they almost did a deal in december

if the IRA have to produce photos tehy will or something else agreable to all sides
when they say no never not an ounce not a bullet wether it is the DUP or SF or whoever tthey dont really mean it


we will see time will tell

A Dub in Glasgo

It is almost as if some are hoping that the peace process is dead so they can utter the 'I told you so' phrase

spanner

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

It is almost as if some are hoping that the peace process is dead so they can utter the 'I told you so' phrase

here, here, i completely agree with you, too many pessimistic people here. The northern bank raid and the macartney murder have shown the IRA cant just do what they have been doing for the last 30 years and the DUP are not going to do any deal with them unless they decommission and stop the crap. lets remember before leeds castle the IRA were meant to have been centralising their arms getting them ready for decommissioning. Maybe this was one of their many ploys to trick everyone but i do think alot of the members in the IRA know its only a matter of time before decommisioning will happen. DUP will be blowing a lot of hot air asual but lets wait and see what happens

MT

Keep the lunacy out

John A Murphy

TRIMBLE dignified, Doherty surly, Hermon spirited, Paisley vindictive. Virtually a clean sweep for the DUP but not for SF. Mitchel McLaughlin, smarting from defeat in Foyle, suggested that Mark Durkan could thank some unionists for crossing the sectarian barrier.
Why not? Tactical voting could begin to blur the North's rigid tribal lines.

Martin McGuinness sourly observed, without any sense of irony (but then SF don't do irony), that SDLP expenditure on the Foyle election was lavish. There was another reason for the SDLP to rejoice: the bookies got it dreadfully wrong - 4/7 McLaughlin, 11/10 Durkan. And you could see Durkan visibly growing in confidence as he escaped at last from John Hume's patronising shadow.

The successful DUP candidates fervently thanked God for their victory. God is a black Protestant and lives in Ulster. Can this be the same God who, says our Constitution's preamble "sustained our fathers through centuries of trial" - ie: by Protestant oppressors? "My God, says God, what am I going to do?"

Judging from their victory speeches, SF leaders will now be urging Dublin to take a united Ireland policy seriously. The Government should firmly resist such pressure. It would be lunacy to consider incorporating the bitterly polarised and hatred-riven society we saw yesterday into our body politic.

Sunday Independent (8/5/05)

I agree entirely with Murphy’s main point here: that it would be disastrous to incorporate the North and its madness into the Republic.

From developments in recent years, and now these polarised election results, the North has become an almost entirely tribalised society. Sadly, a majority of its inhabitants have chosen the path of failure and destruction above all others. The result is a people sundered by a poisonous sectarian divide. Most are affected to some degree by ethnic and religious prejudices.

With the election of the ethnic entrepreneurs in the form of Protestant Jihad and the political wing of the IRA, this election confirms the extent of the North’s hatred driven psychosis. The petty tribalism and sectarianism in the build up to this contest has been woeful. The results indicate that it’s now clear from the way they voted that a majority care not one iota for community partnership or tolerance. Not for them the forging of a bond between neighbours or the construction of a better society. In stark contrast to genuine liberal democracies across the globe, each sides primeval atavistic wish on Thursday was for leadership by the tribal chieftains best disposed to fúck over the other side – or themun’s to use the term spat up here. Again and again the bitter people of NI have refused to jettison their ancient animosities in favour of maturity and compromise. I fear they’ve become corrupted beyond all hope.

So, the idea of even attempting to incorporate this land of delinquents into the rest of Ireland would be to risk democratic suicide. Such a move would threaten to contaminate one of the world’s most prosperous, stable and democratic states – the Irish Republic – with the pathological nihilism that passes for ‘political’ discourse up here.

If anything, what the Republic needs is a bulwark against the North and its deluded ravings. To do the opposite and seek unity would be akin to inviting an arsonist into your home. I couldn’t agree more with Murphy on this issue - ‘keep the lunacy at bay’. Democracy is much too tender a plant to do otherwise.

MT

Exploring this theme further is Eoghan Harris, Murphy’s controversial co-writer at the Sindo. Although I disagree with Harris on many issues I couldn’t concur more with his warnings on the threat posed to democracy by Northern Ireland

Cold wind from North on a summer’s day

THOSE of us who wake in good health this Sunday morning, a May morning at the start of summer, should be able to count ourselves among the luckiest people in the world. We have a healthy democracy, a booming economy, an energetic and educated young population.
God's in his heaven, all's right with our Republic.

So why do some of us wake with a feeling of foreboding? And why do there appear to be so few of us? Are we missing something? Does everybody else have some secret knowledge that allows them to start up the SUVs, collect the Sunday papers and consume the British general election over caffe lattes, and not feel the cold wind from Northern Ireland?

Consider: not 100 miles from Dublin, a divided community, which after 30 years of armed struggle, and 10 years of intensive peacemaking, involving two US presidents, has decided to destroy its centre ground, take down its noblest politician David Trinble, and put its trust in two parties, one of which is the political front for a criminal conspiracy and the other a byword for bigotry.

This is a recipe for a return to trouble in Northern Ireland, a consequent rise in nationalist sentiment in the Republic of Ireland, the political ascent of Sinn Fein, the corruption of Irish democracy, the degradation of Irish politics, and the descent of the Irish Republic into a populist dictatorship.

That's the shadow on our summer Sunday morning.

* * * * *

LOOKING over the devasted landscape of Northern Ireland, littered with the corpses of the centre parties, a simple question asks for an answer.
How did we get here?

Tragically, future historians will say that democracy on this island was destroyed by men and women of goodwill who lacked the moral gumption to keep the Provos outside the pale until the IRA was stood down.

The goodwill list is long. It includes minor figures ranging from Mo Mowlam to Richard Haass. It includes a generation of feebles at Foreign Affairs who are now stealing away. It includes gullibles like me who fell for the Provo peace ploy.

But the two men who did most of the damage were John Hume and Tony Blair. These two
great men - and they are great men - can claim they did what they did from the best of motives. But there was also arrogance and more than a hint of hubris.

High ideals plus hubris is a short definition of Greek tragedy.

* * * * *

I WISH I could let John Hume off the hook, for two reasons. First, he takes criticism hard, and has a habit of phoning his critics and making pained and, it must be admitted, persuasive complaints. As he did a few months ago when I queried some of his actions, and asked me about all the lives that had been saved.

Another reason I don't like to criticise him is because he is a good man. But what John Hume did for the best of reasons has had the worst possible results. Before the Hume-Adams, talks the IRA was outside the political pale. It could murder and maim and make life miserable inside the IRA ghettos. But it could not corrupt constitutional nationalism or constitutional unionism - as it has now done - and threaten the Irish Republic.

* * *

THE second guilty man is Tony Blair. As a long-time admirer I find it as hard to take him to task as I do John Hume. With one tragic exception, Blair has been a politician driven by conscience and conviction. Alas for us, that exception is Northern Ireland.

If Blair was simply an opportunist he would neither have invaded Iraq nor defended his decision to the death. At any stage he could have sanctuary from a savage press by saying he had got it wrong, apologising profusely, and blaming his mistake on poor intelligence and George W Bush.

But Blair has never given ground on Iraq, rightly believing it to be the best and bravest thing he did during his tenure of office. In his otherwise abrasive book on Blair, Pretty Straight Guys, Nick Cohen remarks:

"In his retirement he can reflect with justifiable bemusement on a British centre-left which forgave him everything except his part in the downfall of a fascist regime."

Blair has been heroic on Iraq. But like all heroes he has an Achilles heel. And that Achilles heel has been Northern Ireland, where Blair has behaved with consistent bad faith, beginning with the morning of the Good Friday Agreement when he gave David Trimble a letter of comfort which said he, Blair, would do no business with Sinn Fein unless the IRA disarmed.

By dishonouring that promise, not once but again and again, Blair destroyed the prospects of David Trimble, the most brilliant unionist politician in Northern Ireland since James Craig.
Blair's bad faith also destroyed the best and brightest of the progressive unionist generation which had backed the Belfast Good Friday Agreement and which was ready to do business with the Irish Republic.

* * * * *

NOW for the hard bit. Neither Hume nor Blair was a free agent. At all times they were under the IRA's gun. Behind that gun, as we now know, are most of the nationalist people of Northern Ireland.

So what are we in the Irish Republic to say about the decision of northern nationalists to destroy the SDLP and vote for the party whose members murdered Robert McCartney?

The answer seems to be that we in the Irish Republic are not allowed to say much in the matter of pointing out the moral issues involved - according to Anthony McIntyre, a former Provisional activist, who is now an incisive political commentator, and who, I suspect, speaks for many of the new breed of northern nationalists.

In last week's issue of the dissident republican Belfast online paper The Blanket, he took me to task as follows: "Moralising arguments, such as that articulated by Eoghan Harris and which sound remarkably like a religious rant, move very few in West Belfast." There are two
things I would like to say about that.

First, McIntyre is too good a commentator to let his work be corrupted by cliches like 'rant', which has been so devalued by left-wing student polemics that it has about as much punch as their favourites, 'hysterical' and 'Thatcherite'. Second, as a disillusioned former Provo, McIntyre is presumably making the long journey from ideology to natural instinct. Like most of us who moved from totalising ideologies such as Marxism or republicanism, he finds it difficult to give up the technical and ideological comfort-blankets that make the move bearable.

If McIntyre is lucky he will live long enough to find out that the only arguments that matter are "moralising" arguments.

The problem with the Nazis or Sinn Fein is not just a matter of bad policies. It is a matter of bad intentions.

That is why the Irish Republic must reject the actions of northern nationalists by saying: "my country right, but not wrong".

Eoghan Harris

Irish Independent (8/5/05)

MT

In today's Independent, Sam Smyth examines the collapse of the centre and the deepening sectarian schism cutting across the North. Interestingly, Smyth is a Protestant that long ago saw the light and got out of Northern Ireland to pursue his career as a journalist in the Republic. I think his article goes a good way towards summing up the extent of what has been called 'the benign apartheid' that Sinn Fein and the DUP have been attempting establish across the North. The IRA gets to control its fiefdom and the biblical theocrats get theirs.

Tribal voting patterns contrive to set sectarianism in stone

LAST week's elections have literally set sectarianism in stone, cementing unionists and nationalists into tribal homelands, constituencies where the electorate's political colours are indelibly dyed-in-the-wool.

SDLP seats may be taken by Sinn Fein, or maybe even vice versa; if the UUP loses its only seat in North Down, it will almost certainly be won by the DUP.

Only a massive and sudden shift in population - unlikely except for the appalling vista that dare not speak its name - could have a currently unionist or nationalist constituency electing an MP from the other side.

From South Down and all of western Northern Ireland to Derry is solid republican and Sinn Fein, except for Eddie McGrady's stubbornly nationalist foothold north of Newry. East of the River Bann is Protestant and unionist, with isolated Catholic and nationalist enclaves, particularly in Belfast where 62 'peace walls' separate the opposing communities.

Seamus Mallon, who retired at last week's election and whose SDLP seat at Westminster was taken by Sinn Fein, warned about this 'Balkanisation' of the North. "We have to avoid two parties rooted in sectarian power," said Mr Mallon. "Parties who have worked politics based on half truths, the threat of violence and a Stalinist approach."

Or course, there were always similarities to Yugoslavia in Northern Ireland, but last week's election has drawn up the divisions even more starkly than before. In 1994, when the peace process began after the IRA's first ceasefire, there were 21 prospective sectarian flashpoints in Belfast.

Yet 11 years on, seven years after the Good Friday Agreement and the on-going intervention of a US president, the British prime minister and the Taoiseach, there are now 62 potentially lethal community interfaces.

Suspicion and mutual distrust between the communities has deepened alarmingly in the past generation to the point where sectarian abuse is as sadly inevitable as road rage.

As the days lengthen, another grim possibility looms: a long hot summer of sectarian rioting. A major Orange march scheduled for Derry has been greeted by a 'no talk, no walk' warning from republicans.

Anyone expecting Tony Blair to pay the same attention to Northern Ireland in the coming weeks should note that the British prime minister and his government will be preoccupied with their EU presidency.

Peter Hain, the new Northern Ireland secretary, whose ambition and unswerving self-confidence is put down to "a dysfunctional modesty gland", is unlikely to perform any emergency miracles.

Sinn Fein has promised a lot from the IRA, but they are already five years late in delivering the decommissioning promised in the Good Friday Agreement.

Gerry Adams and his team have their eyes set beyond even the next Westminster election in 2009, to the centenary of the Easter Rising in 2016, and will only change or innovate when it suits them.

They had a major disappointment in Foyle when, against all expectations, Mark Durkan convincingly held the SDLP seat, leaving Mitchel McLaughlin looking foolish.

On the eve of polling last Wednesday night, the Sinn Fein candidate went on Derry's community TV and announced that he had won the seat - the SDLP were despondent on polling day as Mr McLaughlin and his team swaggered through the constituency.

But Mr Durkan won in Foyle, Mr McGrady, as expected, held his seat in South Down and Alasdair McDonnell slipped between the internecine unionist squabble to steal a seat in South Belfast.

In fact, the SDLP's seat in South Belfast is probably the last that may go to the other side if the unionist parties field a single candidate at the next election.

But the evidence points to Sinn Fein dominating nationalist politics and the DUP's decimation of the UUP will be leave Ian Paisley's thundering oratory as the prevailing unionist voice. There can be no realistic hopes for an early deal between Sinn Fein and the DUP, particularly when Ian Paisley came within a whisker of losing face - and the leadership of unionism - last December.

If the DUP had done a deal with Sinn Fein before the Northern Bank robbery in December, they would have been Trimbled at the polls last week.

So, any future agreement with Sinn Fein will require tortuous negotiation, verification and even then there will be a long 'decontamination' process.

And the DUP will almost certainly want to put the terms of any future agreement with Sinn Fein in an election manifesto to get the security of a mandate from their voters before signing up to anything.

Sam Smyth

Irish Independent (9/8/05)

Sand

that is not power

Its more power than theyll have if they go into power with the IRA - theyll be annialated at the next elections.

Cdebru, try to think from a unionist mindset. Youve got two options....

A) Direct rule from London, where you elect MPs to represent you, a parliment that governments the nation you are a part of .

Local rule where terrorists control the police, undermine the institutions of the state, carry out murder, intimidation, violence and criminality on a massive scale.

As a unionist, which is more appealing to you? Which protects the union best? Which best protects the democratic institutions of the state from subversion? Hmmmmm, yeah, ..... thats a toughie alright. Try to understand that just because SF/IRA see nothing wrong with terrorism doesnt mean everyone else doesnt.

personally i think it is really sad how much you dont get it politicians become politicians to attain power and implement their policies

So why would they commit political suicide? See what happened to the last unionist politician and party to cut a deal with the IRA? What was that guys name again, god he used to be important, cant really remember these has beens to be honest..... I dont think hes particularly powerful these days. I wonder if the White House is returning his calls today?

the IRA will go away it has always been adams and co intention to rid themselves of the IRA when the time is right but to garner as much political pull out of the IRA whilst they still existed

This is an example of why the peace proccess is dead and why SF/IRA are idealogically incapable of making it work again. They still view terrorism as a chip to be traded in, not as wholly against the democratic values they claim to be embracing. They still cant call murder a crime. They still cant co-operate with the institutions of state they would have influence over in a power sharing deal. They still cant stop terrorising communities in their thrall. Devalera and Fianna Fail made the journey from militant republicanism to constitutional republicanism by completely and utterly rejecting militant republicanism - to the point where Dev introduced internment to break the back of his former comrades, SF/IRA show no indications of the same idealogical journey.

They have no interest in peace, everything is tactical, everything is calculated. Ceasefires can be stopped if they view it in their interest, decommissioning was only ever for publicity stunt value, mooted disbandment is only for show. Promises and deals were only to be observed if they couldnt get away with breaching them, and only if it suited them.

It is almost as if some are hoping that the peace process is dead so they can utter the 'I told you so' phrase

Oh, I already established my "I told you so" rights a long time ago. Dig up the threads around December and November here, the ones on that scumbags O Snodaighs punishment gang being convicted. I think there was a disagreement there on whether the peace proccess was best served by confronting the provos and demanding they live up to the deals they had entered into, or using creative ambiguity and fudge. I argued then that the December deal was meaningless and would fail because no one was willing to stand up the provos repeated breaches of their undertakings. And guess what, I told you so.

Maybe this was one of their many ploys to trick everyone but i do think alot of the members in the IRA know its only a matter of time before decommisioning will happen

Nah, it was definitly one of their many ploys to trick the gullible. Lets face it, if SF/IRA wanted to decommission they could do it tommorrow. Whats stopping them? They have significant political power, they have mechanisms in place to bring about a United Ireland without bloodshed, they have a British Army that is downsizing in Northern Ireland and only remains at all because they havent gone away. Catholic civil rights were never important to them to begin with, but for what theyre worth theyre secure.

But the problem is the IRA *like* having the guns, the intimidation, the control, the implied threat, the bank jobs and the extortion to buy pubs and holiday homes in Donegal. They like having the control over the police. They honestly dont see why they cant have both. Lets face it, the SF branch was only a side show until very recently. Their idealogy is devoted to a violent, brutal, merciless "war" for some blood soaked holy republic. Disband the IRA? Theres more chance of SF being disbanded than the IRA. Sure, they might have to re-arrange the deck chairs and make pretty speeches about peace, ceasefires, commitment, drive, energy and the Sit-yee-ah-shun but why cant they quietly keep both on the go. If anyone complains, too bad - thats an ex member, weve disbanded love, nothing to do with us.

And the gullible will lap it up, with Tommie "historic" Gorman in the fore.

hawkmoon269

MT, I've read the above articles, and several of the others you have posted recently. Your analysis is not without merit and up to a point I would agree with it.

However, in my view it is unnecessarily pessimistic. Consider the following "straws in the wind":

(1) George W Bush has seemingly told his advisors that he will never again meet with Gerry Adams, following Northern Bank robbery and the McCartney murder. In fact, most of the American political establishment is now highly sceptical of Sinn Fein / IRA. The only thing likely to change that is if Hilary Clinton is elected president and goes back to the cosing up of terrorists that her husband so liked to do. However, I doubt very much if HC will become President. In fact, I think the next US President will be another Republican, and if (as I hope) it's John McCain, well he views the IRA for what they are, i.e., a Mafia.

(2) The DUP are not necessarily as intransigent as widely perceived. They do have a commonsense interest in jobs for their constituents and a successful economy.

(3) FF ministers are now much more sceptical of SF/IRA than they have been in years. In the event of a showdown with Paisley and Adams, who are they more likely to back?

(4) The issue of the McCartney murder has been raised in the European Parliament. The IRA have now been shamed all across Europe. Whatever about the IRA, Adams and McGuinness don't like bad publicity any more than any politicians and will be anxious that similar events do not happen again.

madmorphy

It would be lunacy to consider incorporating the bitterly polarised and hatred-riven society we saw yesterday into our body politic

Amen to this,the place is now a serious basket case.
Most of the middle ground has been wiped out,trimble has paid the price for trying to broker a deal with Gerry and the boys.A deal is now moving further and further away.
Surely the shinners know they won't get a better deal out of paisley than they would have out of trimble,so what was the point in taking him out in the first place,the mind boggles !

shltter

Sand wrote:

Its more power than theyll have if they go into power with the IRA - theyll be annialated at the next elections.

Cdebru, try to think from a unionist mindset. Youve got two options....

A) Direct rule from London, where you elect MPs to represent you, a parliment that governments the nation you are a part of .

Local rule where terrorists control the police, undermine the institutions of the state, carry out murder, intimidation, violence and criminality on a massive scale.

As a unionist, which is more appealing to you? Which protects the union best? Which best protects the democratic institutions of the state from subversion? Hmmmmm, yeah, ..... thats a toughie alright. Try to understand that just because SF/IRA see nothing wrong with terrorism doesnt mean everyone else doesnt.



So why would they commit political suicide? See what happened to the last unionist politician and party to cut a deal with the IRA? What was that guys name again, god he used to be important, cant really remember these has beens to be honest..... I dont think hes particularly powerful these days. I wonder if the White House is returning his calls today?.

who would anihilate them at the polls see the dup are the opposition to the GFA once they accept it and the unionist population have accepted it by endorsing any new deal in fresh assembly elections the IRA will be gone paisley will have his photos or something just as good to him
he can then go and face the people as the leader that defeated the IRA

seriously think about it where would the opposition to annihlate them come from not the UUP all the main dissidents from the UUP are now in the DUP not the UKUP they have thrown their hat in with the DUP bob stood aside for the DUP in north down

what is more appealing to the DUP if you stopped to listen to them is devolved government where instead of taking the blame for bad decisions made by part time ministers that have no connection to the north they get to make the own decisions

Sand wrote:

This is an example of why the peace proccess is dead and why SF/IRA are idealogically incapable of making it work again. They still view terrorism as a chip to be traded in, not as wholly against the democratic values they claim to be embracing. They still cant call murder a crime. They still cant co-operate with the institutions of state they would have influence over in a power sharing deal. They still cant stop terrorising communities in their thrall. Devalera and Fianna Fail made the journey from militant republicanism to constitutional republicanism by completely and utterly rejecting militant republicanism - to the point where Dev introduced internment to break the back of his former comrades, SF/IRA show no indications of the same idealogical journey.

They have no interest in peace, everything is tactical, everything is calculated. Ceasefires can be stopped if they view it in their interest, decommissioning was only ever for publicity stunt value, mooted disbandment is only for show. Promises and deals were only to be observed if they couldnt get away with breaching them, and only if it suited them..

since you use dev in your arguement i suggest you go back and read up on it
when did dev and FF break their links with the IRA not for many years after they had left SF in fact the IRA in 1932 campaigned on behalf of FF

yes dev did eventually turn his back on the IRA when he had to when the IRA launched its bombing campaign on britain in 1939 up till shortly before that relations between dev and the IRA had been cordial in fact dev used the IRA to defeat the blueshirts

just as dev used the IRA until they were of no political use to him infact they became a danger to him so to will the provos when they are used up SF will discard them and i wouldn't bet that if SF are in charge of policing or justice they will crack down harder on the IRA P R or C harder than the brits ever did in true dev style

adams and co show all the signs of the same journey dev made you just have to open your eyes and see it


I have to agree with ADIG you so want the peace process to be over you are basically wishing for it

sleepwalker

eoghan harris has an unhealthy obsession with connecting cafe lattes with people he doesnt agree with

cdebru

Sand wrote:

Its more power than theyll have if they go into power with the IRA - theyll be annialated at the next elections.

Cdebru, try to think from a unionist mindset. Youve got two options....

A) Direct rule from London, where you elect MPs to represent you, a parliment that governments the nation you are a part of .

Local rule where terrorists control the police, undermine the institutions of the state, carry out murder, intimidation, violence and criminality on a massive scale.

As a unionist, which is more appealing to you? Which protects the union best? Which best protects the democratic institutions of the state from subversion? Hmmmmm, yeah, ..... thats a toughie alright. Try to understand that just because SF/IRA see nothing wrong with terrorism doesnt mean everyone else doesnt.



So why would they commit political suicide? See what happened to the last unionist politician and party to cut a deal with the IRA? What was that guys name again, god he used to be important, cant really remember these has beens to be honest..... I dont think hes particularly powerful these days. I wonder if the White House is returning his calls today?



This is an example of why the peace proccess is dead and why SF/IRA are idealogically incapable of making it work again. They still view terrorism as a chip to be traded in, not as wholly against the democratic values they claim to be embracing. They still cant call murder a crime. They still cant co-operate with the institutions of state they would have influence over in a power sharing deal. They still cant stop terrorising communities in their thrall. Devalera and Fianna Fail made the journey from militant republicanism to constitutional republicanism by completely and utterly rejecting militant republicanism - to the point where Dev introduced internment to break the back of his former comrades, SF/IRA show no indications of the same idealogical journey.

They have no interest in peace, everything is tactical, everything is calculated. Ceasefires can be stopped if they view it in their interest, decommissioning was only ever for publicity stunt value, mooted disbandment is only for show. Promises and deals were only to be observed if they couldnt get away with breaching them, and only if it suited them.



Oh, I already established my "I told you so" rights a long time ago. Dig up the threads around December and November here, the ones on that scumbags O Snodaighs punishment gang being convicted. I think there was a disagreement there on whether the peace proccess was best served by confronting the provos and demanding they live up to the deals they had entered into, or using creative ambiguity and fudge. I argued then that the December deal was meaningless and would fail because no one was willing to stand up the provos repeated breaches of their undertakings. And guess what, I told you so.



Nah, it was definitly one of their many ploys to trick the gullible. Lets face it, if SF/IRA wanted to decommission they could do it tommorrow. Whats stopping them? They have significant political power, they have mechanisms in place to bring about a United Ireland without bloodshed, they have a British Army that is downsizing in Northern Ireland and only remains at all because they havent gone away. Catholic civil rights were never important to them to begin with, but for what theyre worth theyre secure.

But the problem is the IRA *like* having the guns, the intimidation, the control, the implied threat, the bank jobs and the extortion to buy pubs and holiday homes in Donegal. They like having the control over the police. They honestly dont see why they cant have both. Lets face it, the SF branch was only a side show until very recently. Their idealogy is devoted to a violent, brutal, merciless "war" for some blood soaked holy republic. Disband the IRA? Theres more chance of SF being disbanded than the IRA. Sure, they might have to re-arrange the deck chairs and make pretty speeches about peace, ceasefires, commitment, drive, energy and the Sit-yee-ah-shun but why cant they quietly keep both on the go. If anyone complains, too bad - thats an ex member, weve disbanded love, nothing to do with us.

And the gullible will lap it up, with Tommie "historic" Gorman in the fore.

the DUP dislike direct rule just as much as republicans

the actual choice is do a deal with SF once the IRA is gone because the IRA are going one way or the other they are a millstone to SF

or sit twiddling their thumbs for the next 20 years waiting to retire letting direct rule ministers take decisions that affect their constituents with out having any say

i cant see any threat to the DUP from doing a deal the most likely threat to then is in not doing a deal I dont think most unionist are as closed minded as the DUP
they have been elected for one main reason to deal with SF harder than the UUP did i dont think most of the people who voted for them agree wi th their views on homosexuality rock music alcohol etc etc

as for De valera remember the phrase slightly constitutional party De valera did not end his links with the IRA over night it probably took about 10 years or so
and FF entered leinster house the first time with guns in their pockets never mind guns outside
the paralells between now and FF then are there and plenty


about the IRA like having guns what good are they to them if they are actually preventing them from achieving their political aims
when it boils down to it the IRA takes the back seat in the republican movement if it is in the interests of SF for them to go away that is what they will do

gandalf

Cork wrote:

But the vote that SF got is small compared to those who voted for the removal of articles 2 & 3 from our constitution.

Lest we forgot the IRA has zero mandate.

Cork either stay on topic with the thread or do not bother posting at all. I am getting sick and tired of us warning you. Next time I will remove your mandate from posting here.

monument

MT wrote:

Furthermore, it's very interesting that Sinn Fein refused a voting pact in South Belfast when Alasdair McDonnell was the only Nationalist with a chance of winning the seat. It seems Republicans only demand sectarian solidarity when it will suit their own ends. When the SDLP needs electoral support from their 'sister' party they're told in no uncertain terms to get stuffed.

Alasdair McDonnell? The fellow who comes across as more bitter towards SF then most Unionists? Oh, right, I wonder why SF don't support him? :rolleyes:

Cork wrote:

But the vote that SF got is small compared to those who voted for the removal of articles 2 & 3 from our constitution.

Lest we forgot the IRA has zero mandate.

...

Cork wrote:

Trust was indeed squandered. SF/IRA have to take some of the blame.

Is it 'SF, and the IRA', or 'SF/IRA'? Make up your mind.

I think it is 'SF, and the IRA', but if we were to go with the 'SF/IRA' mindset, "SF/IRA" have a "mandate".

MT

monument wrote:

Alasdair McDonnell? The fellow who comes across as more bitter towards SF then most Unionists? Oh, right, I wonder why SF don't support him?

This sounds to me like the Sinn Fein persecution complex. No one seemingly can have a disagreement of opinion with SF, there clearly has to be something off key with their personality. They’ve got to be a bit unhinged, a bit nasty. So, McDonnell can’t simply differ with SF, he’s got to be bitter. What an awful man he must be. Of course, the truth – as is almost always the case when the Republican Movement’s involved – is entirely different. McDonnell is a hard working, balanced upstanding politician. But as a rival he has to be castigated, portrayed as not quite right.

SF do this to all their opponents: it’s part and parcel of a persecution complex they’re unable to jettison. And for so long as they see themselves as the victim and everyone else as either wicked or an oppressor, they’ll never have the maturity to seek compromise and take responsibility. It’s why everything written by the likes of Danny Morrison, P O’Neill, etc. sounds just like one long whinge. ‘Whaah, Whaah, everyone’s picking on us, whaah, whaah, they’re bashing… and after we’d behaved as saints an all. I hate those bastards.’

And it’s why the IRA will never go out of business. They are so mired in their own sense of persecution, so consumed by the psychosis of perpetual martyrdom that they genuinely believe they can do no wrong. And mores the point, when they’re accused of anything, or disagreed with over any issue their self idolisation as nothing short of saints and their all consuming paranoia convinces them that it all must be a conspiracy. That’s why murder isn’t a crime when they do it. Back robbery is fine and dandy as sure ‘them banks stole it all in the first place’. Psychiatrists could have a field day on their victim/saint complex.

But then, even if McDonnell was bitter, wouldn’t he be entirely justified? For look what republicans have done to his cause. Having toiled his entire political career to advance Northern Nationalism, he’s had to watch as a bunch of glib flashy hypocrites have come along, stolen the limelight, and then proceeded to bring the entire ideology into reproach. With their lies, false promises, intimidation, contempt for human rights, savage brutality, arrogant protection of the monsters in their midst and the casual dismissal of those attempting to gain justice for the McCartney family they’ve done almost irreparable damage to the standing of nationalism. On this alone he’d have every right to be seriously pissed off. It’s a credit to the man, and a shame on the smear-merchants in republicanism, that he has behaved with dignity in the face of abhorrent thugery.

But then, take that brutal murder of Robert McCartney by Republicans, not to mention their subsequent attempts at a cover-up. Just observe the poisonous effect of their whispering campaign against the brave souls in the McCartney family. Look at how at almost every opportunity SF abdicated responsibility and actively attempted to thwart the police investigation. The entire episode, from slaying to deliberate silence, intimidation and the destruction of evidence, Mitchel McLaughlin’s appalling claim that it wasn’t even a crime in the first place, the whole thing – it was as sickening an example of corrupt power and tyranny as your likely to get. Anyone, with even an ounce of morality wouldn’t fail to feel some measure of negativity towards SF, and especially someone such as McDonnell who has cared for and done so much for the McCartney family.

Shame on Republicans for questioning his good character. If only there were politicians of his integrity within SF. The man has more decency in his little finger than the entire shower of hypocrites.

flogen

madmorphy wrote:

Amen to this,the place is now a serious basket case.
Most of the middle ground has been wiped out,trimble has paid the price for trying to broker a deal with Gerry and the boys.A deal is now moving further and further away.
Surely the shinners know they won't get a better deal out of paisley than they would have out of trimble,so what was the point in taking him out in the first place,the mind boggles !

I think it's more the case that the extremist parties have moved more into the middle ground than the middle ground being wiped away. I do agree, though that Trimble has payed for trusting SF while Paisley has benefited for his image of taking no crap from the Republicans. To people in the Republic it may seem like he's a narky moan who doesn't want peace but to Unionists he gives the image of standing up for what he believes in and kicking the Shinners into touch. Good timing meant that in December he came out looking like a wise tactitioner and Adams came out looking like a sly crook

cdebru

MT wrote:

This sounds to me like the Sinn Fein persecution complex. No one seemingly can have a disagreement of opinion with SF, there clearly has to be something off key with their personality. They’ve got to be a bit unhinged, a bit nasty. So, McDonnell can’t simply differ with SF, he’s got to be bitter. What an awful man he must be. Of course, the truth – as is almost always the case when the Republican Movement’s involved – is entirely different. McDonnell is a hard working, balanced upstanding politician. But as a rival he has to be castigated, portrayed as not quite right.

SF do this to all their opponents: it’s part and parcel of a persecution complex they’re unable to jettison. And for so long as they see themselves as the victim and everyone else as either wicked or an oppressor, they’ll never have the maturity to seek compromise and take responsibility. It’s why everything written by the likes of Danny Morrison, P O’Neill, etc. sounds just like one long whinge. ‘Whaah, Whaah, everyone’s picking on us, whaah, whaah, they’re bashing… and after we’d behaved as saints an all. I hate those bastards.’

And it’s why the IRA will never go out of business. They are so mired in their own sense of persecution, so consumed by the psychosis of perpetual martyrdom that they genuinely believe they can do no wrong. And mores the point, when they’re accused of anything, or disagreed with over any issue their self idolisation as nothing short of saints and their all consuming paranoia convinces them that it all must be a conspiracy. That’s why murder isn’t a crime when they do it. Back robbery is fine and dandy as sure ‘them banks stole it all in the first place’. Psychiatrists could have a field day on their victim/saint complex.

But then, even if McDonnell was bitter, wouldn’t he be entirely justified? For look what republicans have done to his cause. Having toiled his entire political career to advance Northern Nationalism, he’s had to watch as a bunch of glib flashy hypocrites have come along, stolen the limelight, and then proceeded to bring the entire ideology into reproach. With their lies, false promises, intimidation, contempt for human rights, savage brutality, arrogant protection of the monsters in their midst and the casual dismissal of those attempting to gain justice for the McCartney family they’ve done almost irreparable damage to the standing of nationalism. On this alone he’d have every right to be seriously pissed off. It’s a credit to the man, and a shame on the smear-merchants in republicanism, that he has behaved with dignity in the face of abhorrent thugery.

But then, take that brutal murder of Robert McCartney by Republicans, not to mention their subsequent attempts at a cover-up. Just observe the poisonous effect of their whispering campaign against the brave souls in the McCartney family. Look at how at almost every opportunity SF abdicated responsibility and actively attempted to thwart the police investigation. The entire episode, from slaying to deliberate silence, intimidation and the destruction of evidence, Mitchel McLaughlin’s appalling claim that it wasn’t even a crime in the first place, the whole thing – it was as sickening an example of corrupt power and tyranny as your likely to get. Anyone, with even an ounce of morality wouldn’t fail to feel some measure of negativity towards SF, and especially someone such as McDonnell who has cared for and done so much for the McCartney family.

Shame on Republicans for questioning his good character. If only there were politicians of his integrity within SF. The man has more decency in his little finger than the entire shower of hypocrites.

can you provide a link or some evidence where mitchel mclaughlin said the murder of robert mccartney was not a crime

also it is a bit rich castigating SF for not giving the SDLP a free run in south belfast

where was the free run in fermanagh south tyrone

why did the SDLP not stand aside as they had promised to do in west tyrone for the hospital candidate they had no hope of winning it themselves

what is really wrong is not the SDLP or SF it is the FPTP undemocratic system
why should any party deny its supporters the oppurtunity of voting for them

Raskolnikov

MT wrote:

From developments in recent years, and now these polarised election results, the North has become an almost entirely tribalised society.

What are you talking about? I only know of a few such areas that are 'tribalised' and they've been that way since the Troubles began.

Quantum

Raskolnikov wrote:

What are you talking about? I only know of a few such areas that are 'tribalised' and they've been that way since the Troubles began.

Well the evidence of the election says otherwise. The whole six counties has become a society of extremist nutters, with one side following the screaming 'no' man Paisley and the other side following the bank robbing throat slitting Sinn Fein.
I was planning to holiday there this year but I have no intention of setting foot in such a sick society.

Where is the Berlin Wall when you need one.

AmenToThat

Quantum wrote:

Well the evidence of the election says otherwise. The whole six counties has become a society of extremist nutters, with one side following the screaming 'no' man Paisley and the other side following the bank robbing throat slitting Sinn Fein.
I was planning to holiday there this year but I have no intention of setting foot in such a sick society.

Im afraid headung for the bed and putting the pillow over your ears isnt goignt to make it go away. One way or another the people of the south are going to have to deal with NI.
SF in my view will continue to grow in the 26 and the party will keep it a live issue so better to deal with the issues as they arise than trying pretend it isnt there.
The longer the place is left the fester the more dangerous it becomes for everyone on this island.

Its also worth noting that all the articles mention are from the Indo, nuff said!

MT

Ahern: suffering of victims’ families must come to end

FOREIGN Affairs Minister Dermot Ahern yesterday met relatives of missing victims of the Troubles and appealed to anyone with information about those missing to come forward.

After the meeting in Dundalk, he said the suffering of the families would never end until
they could bury their loved ones.

The minister said a report by the Victims Commission on each of the missing persons had been received by the department but he was not yet at liberty to reveal its contents.

"While essentially the matter is for the Department of Justice [which established the Commission], I assured the relatives that I would be doing all I could to encourage those
with any information to come forward," said Mr Ahern.

In one of the cases, Charlie Armstrong, a 55-year-old father of five, disappeared on August
15, 1981 after he left his home in Crossmaglen, Co Armagh to bring an elderly woman to
Mass. He was never seen again.

His car was discovered in Dundalk, but despite constant appeals and two searches close to
Inniskeen in Co Monaghan his body was never found.

"We do not want retribution, we just want to be able to pray at the grave of my father,"
said his daughter, Ann McShane.

The relatives of the victims who met the Minister on Monday included: Seamus Wright, Kevin McKee, Jean McConville (whose body was found last year in Selling Hill, Louth), John McIlroy, Seamus Wright, Eamon Molloy, Columba McVeigh, Robert Nairac, Brendan McGraw,
John McClory Brian McKinney Gerard Evans, Eugene Simons, Danny McIhone, Seamus Ruddy, and Garret O'Connor, who disappeared in 2003.

Irish Independent (10/5/05)

It’s a story such as this that yet again highlights the hypocrisy of Sinn Fein. How can anyone believe that the IRA’s apology to the ‘non-combatants’ was in anyway genuine when these families are condemned to the misery of being unable to bury their loved ones. Of course, the courageous Gerry McCabe wasn't included amongst these non-combatants as he was a member of the oppressive state police - the Gardai. The 'freedom fighters' who riddled him with bullets were doing nothing other than their duty to cause.

What would Aengus O’Snodaigh have to say on the suffering of the sisters and mothers who’ve spent years in the quiet agony of wondering hopelessly how their relative suffered and where their body was dumped? What about the human rights of their unfortunate families? Surely, the murder and even torture of their loved ones was enough to bare, but denying them the right to know the whereabouts of their remains must be a cruelty of the most appallingly kind.

No doubt the well-to-do Mary Lou will shortly empathise with these tiresome relatives and inform us all of what ‘the reality is’ and the ‘need to move forwards’ and various other empty platitudes. Then when the media spotlight moves on, the families will likely be left once again without even the dignity of a burial service.

It’s the treatment by SF of these people and the callous slaying of Robert McCartney, never mind the subsequent misery of his family, which says all there is to say about the party’s pious pronouncements on ‘justice and human rights’.

But then, I dare say there’s a good few Republicans that believe they all got what was coming to them. Isn’t that what they parrot about the brutal torture and murder of Jean McConville. Apparently, she was just a filthy traitor and so was treated accordingly. No doubt, P O’Neill would tell her ten children and grandchildren what they can do with their search for the truth.

Remember, Republicans are the only victims in this world.

Nuttzz

With the surge in the DUP support there will be no compromise in the north anytime soon, the two largest parties are completely polarised.

SF really isnt in for much more growth in the south, they have a hardcore 10% which wont really rise or drop much more, however if there were a sudden climb in SF support I am sure that the constituency boundries would be "changed reflect changes in demographics" to keep them in check

MT

At the risk of being accused of bashing or some other form of persecution by SF apologists, I took a further look around the papers for another article on this sad affair. On reading the following, I think there’s very little left to say on the tyranny of the IRA. Having an armed wing that would leave a man’s young children fatherless and then not have the decency to reveal the whereabouts of the body, let alone what they did to him, begs the most searching questions of SF’s supposed commitment to peace. After all, this ‘disappearance’ took place during the IRA’s official cessation of violence. Is kidnapping and murdering the braver members of the community that stand up to the arrogant thugs in the local ‘Ra part of the cease-fire? Does SF’s ‘Ireland of equals’ mean we’ll all be equally at risk of arbitrary brutality and murder?

Despotism is the only fitting description for the slaying of both Gareth O’Connor and Robert McCartney. Piss off the regime’s local thugs and without a trial or objection you’re dragged off and gutted.

Nightmare goes on for Gareth's family 731 days after he vanished

10 May 2005

Armagh man Gareth O'Connor disappeared without a trace two years ago. CHRIS THORNTON spoke to his father about a family caught between life and death

Last night was a milestone of sorts. For 730 nights, Gareth O'Connor's children, his partner Leona, his parents, his whole family have waited for the morning that would bring news of his whereabouts.

Today was the 731st morning of their disappointment.

Tomorrow it will be two full calendar years since he disappeared and over that time their longing for word from Gareth has become just a plaintive desire for word of his body.

"It's still a living nightmare," says his father, Mark. "There's no hoping.

"There's nothing. You walk around in a daze half the time."

Gareth O'Connor vanished on May 11, 2003, sometime after leaving his Armagh home in the morning to sign his bail conditions at a Garda station in Dundalk.

The last known contact with him was a text from Leona asking him to get the Sunday papers.

The last known sighting was by a security camera in Newtownhamilton as he drove past.

His disappearance has become a matter of public controversy. Gareth O'Connor ran in republican circles and PSNI Chief Constable Hugh Orde has blamed the Provisional IRA for his abduction. His family agree.

Unionists and others have cited his apparent death as another breach of the ceasefire. As well as that, two trials of dissident republicans – one north of the border and one south – have foundered on allegations that Gareth was an informer.

And at the same time, his disappearance had been a matter of enormous private grief.

His sister Cara's confirmation last Sunday was another example of the gap left behind.

"His children were there. His partner was there," says Mark. "He wasn't there.

"People say time makes a difference. It makes it no easier. It might make a difference if you had a grave to go to, somewhere where you could speak to him and say `well, this was Cara's day'. But you haven't.

"All you have is a hole in your heart that's never, ever going to be filled."

Today Gareth's family renewed appeals for information about his appearance. They all want a body, Mark says, but especially so they can demonstrate to his sons – Caolan (7) and Eoghan (3) – that Gareth is dead and not just gone.

"Caolan doesn't talk about him much," Mark O'Connor says. "The last time he mentioned Gareth was when I was fixing his bike. He just said 'I bet my daddy could lift that bike.'

"Your heart's breaking every time Eoghan comes into the room with his juice and sees Gareth's picture and says to the picture 'do you want a drink, daddy'?

Whenever Caolan sees it, he walks out again.

"We're not pushing for anything other than his body back. We know the IRA killed him.

"We don't want anything but a place to take the children on a Sunday, to show them and give them a sense that their father's dead.

"We're not looking who done it. All we want is the body for the sake of the two children, to let them get on with their lives," he said.

Mark and his wife Bernie have worked with the Families of the Disappeared, the pressure group pushing for the recovery of the bodies of a dozen people who vanished over the past 35 years.

That group has brought them into contact with families who have been waiting more than two decades for the grave of a loved one.

"I'm of the opinion that we will be waiting twenty-odd years," Mark says heavily. "I'm of the opinion that south Armagh won't own up to it. My only hope is that maybe some farmer working somewhere turns up something. Or somebody on their death bed has a prick of conscience and owns up."

He says he is "100% certain it was the Provisional IRA" who killed Gareth. "They could do it.
They threatened Gareth and it happened in south Armagh.

"The Real IRA and Continuity IRA couldn't keep their mouths shut. They'd be going on about it in the pub. Only the Provisional IRA would keep it quiet.

"The only people on the missing list that aren't claimed by the IRA are from south Armagh.

"This is the problem we're up against. Gerry Adams and company have no control over south Armagh."

What Mark O'Connor is less sure of is why Gareth would have been killed, and particularly why the IRA would want to hide Gareth's body.

"This is what we don't know," says Mark. "We know Gareth stood up to them. The Thursday night he'd been visited by police to say there was a threat against his life.

"He'd stood up to two senior IRA men from Dungannon. See Gareth was a big body builder.

"We don't know whether they wanted to punish him and something went wrong or they set out to
kill him.

"He only became an informer after he was gone. That was very convenient for them.

"But I would ask the IRA – what part of Ireland is burying a person in a bog going to free?"

Officially Gareth O'Connor remains alive. With no death certificate, the family has to maintain the mortgage payments on his home. They hope to apply for special consideration from the Government, much as British tsunami victims were declared dead.

Otherwise they will have to wait seven years.

But even a death certificate would only bring practical relief. It would not fill the hole in Mark O'Connor's heart.

"It never ever, ever goes away, not for a single hour. Other people won't understand and I would hope no one would have to go through it.

"Every day is a year. Every time the phone rings it's in the back of your mind that it's somebody with information. But it never is."

Belfast Telegraph

monument

MT, what every way you want to dress it up, SF supporting Alasdair McDonnell would be on par with them supporting McDowell.

You got it right when you said they are opponents!

MT wrote:

Shame on Republicans for questioning his good character.

Some see being bitter towards, or - like I said about McDonnell - being seen as bitter towards, SF as good character. I think (maybe I'm wrong?) you are one of these people.

monument

Nuttzz wrote:

however if there were a sudden climb in SF support I am sure that the constituency boundries would be "changed reflect changes in demographics" to keep them in check

Someone is one-step ahead of you.

Ok MT,I'm renaming this thread to Sinn Féin - various articles and discussion and merging all three of them together.

Please don't be posting multiple threads with the same current running through them, one at a time is enough-thanks.

Sand

the DUP dislike direct rule just as much as republicans

So they want to sell out their state, their legal system and their people to the IRA? Thats a baby and bathwater scenario.

the actual choice is do a deal with SF once the IRA is gone because the IRA are going one way or the other they are a millstone to SF

As I understand McGuinness has said recently that they will always retain the capability to defend themselves from threats, deal or no deal. That sounds like a coded message to the heartlands for the ****ing crazies to chill out, that its only a PR stunt.

seriously think about it where would the opposition to annihlate them come from not the UUP all the main dissidents from the UUP are now in the DUP not the UKUP they have thrown their hat in with the DUP bob stood aside for the DUP in north down

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Thats hilarious. Where would the opposition come from indeed? Where exactly would the motivation to do a deal come from at all in the first place? "Power" is being bandied about, but the DUP have power and influence precisely because the Unionists are utterly disillusioned with the peace proccess. Even if Paisley did agree a deal, like in December how long would it be before the government broke apart again? Itd be like a marraige between the KKK and the Black Panthers. Though I imagine youd reckon that would work out lovely using your logic above.

And if a deal was done, sure as night follows day, youd see the DUP dissidents moving camp to the UKUP or setting up their own hardline party to campaign against the deal - look at Donaldson for example. And the Unionist population have demonstrated they will support the party that rejects putting terrorists into power, that they are utterly sickened by a proccess whereby the IRA has its buddies released from prison, but they cant be arsed to decommission, stop recruiting or stop activity? The Unionists dont vote DUP by default, and theyll swap support to the new hardline party just as easily as they swapped it from the UUP to the DUP.

I cant believe I've even got to explain this sort of stuff. Gerry might be able to have anyone who goes against him killed in the provos, but in a democracy where parties work purely from electoral support it doesnt work that way. They tend, for better or worse, to take their lead from the electorate, not the other way round.

when it boils down to it the IRA takes the back seat in the republican movement if it is in the interests of SF for them to go away that is what they will do

And thats why the peace proccess is dead. You guys are simply idealogically incapable of seeing terrorism or terrorist organisations as a problem. Theyre instead a negotiating chip to be traded in when appropriate, an implied threat to get what you want.

Dont you recognise how that attitude has destroyed the proccess?

adams and co show all the signs of the same journey dev made you just have to open your eyes and see it

Bollocks. Fianna Fail was founded in 1926, it won its seats in the next election but didnt take them until late 1927 when forced to take the oath - an empty formula. In 1931 they entered government. The IRA did agree to work with them, protecting their rallies, but not in their favour, rather as allies of convenience against Cosgraves gang and the Blueshirts. Devalera went on record as early as January 1933 to say "No section of the community will be allowed to arm. All arms shall be completely at the disposal of the majority of the elected representatives of the people."

To see how little this alliance meant, by 1935 Devalera sent soldiers to break up a bus/tram strike supported by the IRA in Dublin and arrested scores of IRA men who were sentenced by military tribunal. They werent alone, whilst Devs government was more hostile to the Blueshirts to begin with, the IRA soon found themselves being before the military tribunal in their hundreds. And then of course came the 1939 campaign which we all know about.

So lets make this clear, 8 years after they first won their seats Fianna Fail was interning IRA men. 4 years after they entered government.

As of date it is 24 years since SF/IRA won seats in Parlimentary elections, 11 years since their initial ceasefire and the imperfect peace that followed, 7 years since the GFA was agreed and they entered power and theyre still using the IRA as a bargaining chip, still armed, still active, still training, still recruiting, still killing, robbing and maiming. They havet even gone so far as to say what Dev said so early on his road, that no one, absolutely no one has the right to an army other than the democratic government of the people.

Maybe Adams and co are on the same road as DeValera long ago. Perhaps its just theyre moving so slowly that movement is undetectable to the naked eye. How long do you think it will be before Adams is introducing internment to break the IRA in northern Ireland? 50 years? 100 years? A measure of time partially fused with infinity?

cdebru

Sand wrote:

So they want to sell out their state, their legal system and their people to the IRA? Thats a baby and bathwater scenario.

unless your real name is Ian Paisley i will believe what the DUP themselves are saying

Sand wrote:

As I understand McGuinness has said recently that they will always retain the capability to defend themselves from threats, deal or no deal. That sounds like a coded message to the heartlands for the ****ing crazies to chill out, that its only a PR stunt.

sounds like a comfort message to people who are fearful of being left unprotected if the IRA goes away

Sand wrote:

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Thats hilarious. Where would the opposition come from indeed? Where exactly would the motivation to do a deal come from at all in the first place? "Power" is being bandied about, but the DUP have power and influence precisely because the Unionists are utterly disillusioned with the peace proccess. Even if Paisley did agree a deal, like in December how long would it be before the government broke apart again? Itd be like a marraige between the KKK and the Black Panthers. Though I imagine youd reckon that would work out lovely using your logic above.

And if a deal was done, sure as night follows day, youd see the DUP dissidents moving camp to the UKUP or setting up their own hardline party to campaign against the deal - look at Donaldson for example. And the Unionist population have demonstrated they will support the party that rejects putting terrorists into power, that they are utterly sickened by a proccess whereby the IRA has its buddies released from prison, but they cant be arsed to decommission, stop recruiting or stop activity? The Unionists dont vote DUP by default, and theyll swap support to the new hardline party just as easily as they swapped it from the UUP to the DUP.

I cant believe I've even got to explain this sort of stuff. Gerry might be able to have anyone who goes against him killed in the provos, but in a democracy where parties work purely from electoral support it doesnt work that way. They tend, for better or worse, to take their lead from the electorate, not the other way round.

where were the dissidents in december what senior party members threatened to walk or rebel

as for the UKUP they dont exist anymore in any real sense they lost teh only council seat they had they split years ago in the assembly

when the DUP go into powersharing with SF there will be naturally some drift back to the uup but that will happen anyway give the DUPs more outlandish free presbytarian views
there will always be people like yourself who long to cling to the past like a security blanket im sure there will be some on the unionist side as there is on the republican side but they will remain small and largely irrelevant as long as the institutions are up and running and nothing extraordinary happens


and again you just refuse to take this point the DUP are going to insist on fresh assembly elections as a kind of referendum on any deal so they wont be doing what trimble did say onething and do another
they will put it back to their supporters

so again where will the opposition come from
the best you can suggest is another party will be formed

what you are also failing to grasp is that if the IRA has fully decommissioned and gone away what will these dissidents be complaining about
that has been the bug bear that the DUP has latched onto that SF was in government while the IRA was still armed and "active" if that is not the situation then presumably it would just be the power sharing with SF but all unionists realise and say that they will share power with SF when the IRA goes away

Sand wrote:

And thats why the peace proccess is dead. You guys are simply idealogically incapable of seeing terrorism or terrorist organisations as a problem. Theyre instead a negotiating chip to be traded in when appropriate, an implied threat to get what you want

Dont you recognise how that attitude has destroyed the proccess??

it hasn't the process is still going SF know they have to move it on as people are becoming weary of the neverending process

Sand wrote:

Bollocks. Fianna Fail was founded in 1926, it won its seats in the next election but didnt take them until late 1927 when forced to take the oath - an empty formula. In 1931 they entered government. The IRA did agree to work with them, protecting their rallies, but not in their favour, rather as allies of convenience against Cosgraves gang and the Blueshirts. Devalera went on record as early as January 1933 to say "No section of the community will be allowed to arm. All arms shall be completely at the disposal of the majority of the elected representatives of the people."

To see how little this alliance meant, by 1935 Devalera sent soldiers to break up a bus/tram strike supported by the IRA in Dublin and arrested scores of IRA men who were sentenced by military tribunal. They werent alone, whilst Devs government was more hostile to the Blueshirts to begin with, the IRA soon found themselves being before the military tribunal in their hundreds. And then of course came the 1939 campaign which we all know about.

So lets make this clear, 8 years after they first won their seats Fianna Fail was interning IRA men. 4 years after they entered government.

As of date it is 24 years since SF/IRA won seats in Parlimentary elections, 11 years since their initial ceasefire and the imperfect peace that followed, 7 years since the GFA was agreed and they entered power and theyre still using the IRA as a bargaining chip, still armed, still active, still training, still recruiting, still killing, robbing and maiming. They havet even gone so far as to say what Dev said so early on his road, that no one, absolutely no one has the right to an army other than the democratic government of the people.

Maybe Adams and co are on the same road as DeValera long ago. Perhaps its just theyre moving so slowly that movement is undetectable to the naked eye. How long do you think it will be before Adams is introducing internment to break the IRA in northern Ireland? 50 years? 100 years? A measure of time partially fused with infinity?

FF in government in the 26 counties were still seeking support from the IRA
they met the chief of staff of the IRA in government buildings before the 1932 election looking for support
the parting of the ways did not happen overnight it took years
so you can say bollocks or whatever other foul language that makes you feel better but that is a fact


actually sinn fein won parliamentary seats in 1918 and various elections between then and now

how long will adams and co take I dont know but is it not better that they take it slow and bring the vast rump of the republican movement with them than race ahead and leave a large rump behind