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Sinn Féin - various articles and discussion. [merged thread]
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The following article covers McLaughlin’s belief that IRA murders are not crimes:cdebru wrote:can you provide a link or some evidence where mitchel mclaughlin said the murder of robert mccartney was not a crimeIt’s time Sinn Féin recognised our jurisdiction and honoured its laws
By Ryle Dwyer
Irish Examiner
BERTIE AHERN says he won’t apologise to Sinn Féin for suggesting that the leadership had foreknowledge that the IRA was responsible for the Northern Bank robbery.
"What the Taoiseach has accused me and Martin McGuinness of doing is being involved in a conspiracy, [of being] involved in the prior knowledge of the largest bank robbery in the history of these islands. That is what he has accused us of being involved in and I find that highly offensive," Gerry Adams complained.
His wounded innocence was not convincing.
In terms of bank robberies, robbing the Northern Bank was small in comparison with what AIB robbed from the State in taxes during the 1980s, in addition to what they stole from their own customers by overcharging. That crowd gave a whole new meaning to the term bank robbery, yet not one of the people responsible has even been charged, much less convicted, fined, or jailed. But when it comes to being offensive I cannot think of any more offensive statement than that the murder of Jean McConville was not a crime. That offends just about every moral code because her murder was the single most abhorrent premeditated act in the IRA's whole sordid history since 1922.
The widowed mother of 10 children, the eldest of whom was only 14, was taken from her home on December 7, 1972, in front of her terrified children and then murdered. For what? For helping a wounded British soldier who sought her assistance. Since when did doing one's Christian duty become a capital offence in Ireland?
Of course, in the twisted psyche of the North, she had already transgressed by being a Protestant who dared to marry a Catholic. For this she was disowned by her own side and never really accepted by the Catholics. When it comes to Northern bigotry, don't delude yourself into thinking that the bigots are only on one side. They are on both sides of the divide, and the Catholic bigots are just as bad as the Protestant bigots.
Justice Minister Michael McDowell asked Mitchel McLaughlin if the shooting of Jean McConville was a crime. "I think it was wrong," McLaughlin replied.
McDowell is a skilful debater but Mitchel apparently thought he had him on the ropes. "I didn't introduce the topic in the discussion," McLaughlin argued afterwards.
Over recent years Sinn Féin spokespersons have been masters of obfuscation. They did not answer questions they disliked. They called on others to explain themselves, to clarify, and to justify, but when it suited them, they prevaricated. They even argued that asking them to clarify was an attempt to humiliate them. But being an experienced lawyer, McDowell did not fall for the usual tactics: he pressed the question. He wanted to know if McLaughlin thought the McConville murder was a crime. "No, I do not," Mitchel replied.
"I was pressing the Minister for Justice on the lack of action on outstanding issues such as collusion, criminality at the heart of the British government as far as republicans are concerned," McLaughlin explained, "and I think that, on the ropes, the minister threw in Jean McConville."
In boxing parlance, it was a sucker punch and in political terms it was a knockout. Sinn Féin and the IRA never gave a damn about what the British thought. The real issue is the collusion and criminality at the heart of the so-called republican movement. Are
we to assume now that such collusion and criminality have not gone away because they somehow believe they have some kind of God-given right to deem anything they do legal, no matter how criminal or vile the act?
Arthur Morgan, the Sinn Féin deputy from Louth, had a night to think about Mitchel McLaughlin's faux pas before he declared that the murder of Jean McConville was not a crime. Compounding the matter, he went on to try to justify it by suggesting that she was some kind of informer.
Sinn Féin leaders have been doing a song and dance about Tony Blair and Bertie Ahern accusing the IRA of the Northern Bank robbery without producing any evidence. In fairness, they have a point, but on the McConville issue they are exposing themselves as a bunch of bloody hypocrites. In more than 30 years since they murdered Jean McConville, these so-called republicans did not produce one shred of evidence to support their charge that she was some kind of informer, much less any justification for the murder. What they did was more than murder; it was murder compounded by a heinous form of child abuse.
IN January 1921, Michael Collins had his assassins in "The Squad" kill Willie Doran, a double-dealing hotel porter but they did not kill him in front of his children.
Indeed, when his wife appealed to Collins for Sinn Féin money in the mistaken belief that her husband had been murdered by the British, the Big Fellow ordered that the money be given to her because he did not want he children ever to know what their father had done.
The point that Michael McDowell was trying to highlight on Questions & Answers was that Sinn Féin people claim that the IRA's army council are the real government.
We thought Sinn Féin was abandoning all that crap when they signed up to the Good Friday Agreement, but it seems that these so-called republicans may not have abandoned their old ways at all.
A dictionary definition of republic is "a state in which the supreme power rests in the people, or in officers elected by them". The overwhelming majority of the people of this island voted for the Good Friday Agreement in which Sinn Féin indicated that it was accepting the existing democratic political set-up until the people decide to change it.
Whether the so-called republicans allowed themselves to be deluded by a perverted logic into thinking that the McConville murder was not a crime at the time, acceptance of the Good Friday Agreement means that they must now accept that such behaviour is criminal, and there must be no confusion, prevarication or obfuscation on that point.
In fairness to Mitchel McLaughlin, he did state that the McConville killing was wrong, before he went on to suggest that it was not a crime. It was a crime to subject those children to the horror of seeing their mother kidnapped. It was a crime to deny her due process. It was a crime to murder her. It was a crime not only to leave those children orphaned but to subject them to the uncertainty of what happened to their mother by not even having the decency to allow her body to be found for more than 30 years. It was a crime to bury her the way that they did in this state.
If they cannot see that, then they clearly do not even understand the meaning of decency. It is not just that people holding such twisted views are not fit to sit in government no decent politician with any sense of morality should sit in government with anyone who would condone such behaviour.
It is time we had some clear thinking and clear expression from Sinn Féin. They must abandon their old ways.
Why is it ‘a bit rich’? Especially considering your complaints below that the SDLP refused to stand aside in Fermanagh/South Tyrone and West Tyrone.cdebru wrote:also it is a bit rich castigating SF for not giving the SDLP a free run in south belfastcdebru wrote:where was the free run in fermanagh south tyrone
why did the SDLP not stand aside as they had promised to do in west tyrone for the hospital candidate they had no hope of winning it themselves
Let’s concentrate on the even more grossly undemocratic private army that SF keeps in close association before we worry about the vagaries of the electoral system. Oh, and careful there, if SF get a wind of that complaint they might well use it to further bolster their persecution complex. I mean, these Brits and their FPTP system, it’s definitely a ruse to victimise Republicans.cdebru wrote:what is really wrong is not the SDLP or SF it is the FPTP undemocratic system
You should ask Sinn Fein that. Their armed wing denied many northerners the chance of voting for them, you know when they… how can I put this delicately… murdered them.cdebru wrote:why should any party deny its supporters the oppurtunity of voting for them0 -
MT wrote:The following article covers McLaughlin’s belief that IRA murders are not crimes:
yes all very interesting now can you provide a link where mclaughlin said the murder of robert mccartney was not a crime
that is the allegation you made now can you back it upMT wrote:Why is it ‘a bit rich’? Especially considering your complaints below that the SDLP refused to stand aside in Fermanagh/South Tyrone and West Tyrone.
merely wondering why you only castigate one side for not stepping aside
if you believe as you seem to that a party that can not win a seat should not get in the way of one that can why not criticise the SDLP as well
personally I am a democrat i think the people should make their mind up and people should not be forced to vote for SF or the SDLP nor anybody elseMT wrote:Let’s concentrate on the even more grossly undemocratic private army that SF keeps in close association before we worry about the vagaries of the electoral system. Oh, and careful there, if SF get a wind of that complaint they might well use it to further bolster their persecution complex. I mean, these Brits and their FPTP system, it’s definitely a ruse to victimise Republicans.
why should we just concentrate on that surely a proper democracy is the best way to ensure nobody has a private army
i never said it was aimed at republicans perhaps if you ever read anything else in your newspaper than articles related to the IRA you would have seen the liberal democrats and tories suffering because of the FPTP
it effects the unionist just as much the UUP recieved more votes than the SDLP and 1 mp to the SDLPs 3 mpsMT wrote:You should ask Sinn Fein that. Their armed wing denied many northerners the chance of voting for them, you know when they… how can I put this delicately… murdered them.
why should i ask them if you have a question for them ask them yourself
you might also want to ask the british government loyalists unionists RUC etc etc
or did you not know that it was not just the IRA that killed people have you never got to read those articles since you have been too busy cutting and pasting anything to do with the IRA
you know there is a big world out there with plenty happening in it there is more to it than the IRA and SF0 -
unless your real name is Ian Paisley i will believe what the DUP themselves are saying
Yeah, lets see what theyre saying2: Wait for republicans? Not likely!
• Sinn Fein/IRA could not meet these “Entry Conditions” in December last
year and walked away from the table ending negotiations with the Government.
• Sinn Fein/IRA’s present behaviour shows they still do not meet the
“Entry Conditions” and are not fit to be in government.
• Sinn Fein has not shown any evidence that it could ever meet the
“Entry Conditions” and instead has by its actions of recent weeks signalled
it is permanently and culturally coupled to illegality.
It is not for democratic parties to plead with Sinn Fein/IRA to end its paramilitary and criminal activity and decommission its illegal weapons.
It is for Sinn Fein/IRA, alone, to convince the community that its illegal practices are ended for ever.
Equally, democratic parties should not be asked to wait until republicanism reforms itself – nor should the democratic parties allow democracy and politics to be frozen in this way.3: The DUP says let’s move on - let’s move forward
Sinn Fein’s inability to reform itself should not hold others back.
The DUP believes Sinn Fein should be left behind and those wedded to exclusively peaceful and democratic politics should move forward together. Indeed, to those who hold to the seemingly forlorn hope that Sinn Fein can eventually be sanitised, we argue that it is more likely Sinn Fein would be forced to fall into line if the process moved on without them. It is the belief held by republicans that they can dictate the pace of progress and as a consequence gain concessions, which ensures they will not confront and deal decisively with their unacceptable activities. The IRA Army Council must not be allowed to dictate the terms for the future of Northern Ireland or hold the political process to ransom.
VOLUNTARY COALITION
The DUP contends, as it did in Devolution Now, that a Voluntary Coalition is the best form of devolution for Northern Ireland. Parties should be able to coalesce with those who are willing and legitimate. The DUP is willing to work with all democratic parties who pass the “Entry Conditions”.
As Northern Ireland’s leading and largest party we will put our energy into establishing a coalition from those parties who want to have a future free from violence, criminality and guns.
If, at present, there is not sufficient support for forming a Voluntary Coalition, we believe an interim option could be designed which, on a pre-determined date, would “go live” with executive devolution on a Voluntary Coalition basis with those parties permitted and prepared to participate.
ACCOUNTABLE DIRECT RULE
If executive devolution cannot be set up on such a satisfactory democratic basis then the only option is to make Direct Rule more accountable and acceptable. We will work with the Government to provide the maximum accountability in these circumstances and attempt to integrate Northern Ireland more firmly within the United Kingdom.
I dont know, from my reading of that the DUP has two positions - either a devloved executive open only to lawful democratic parties - which they repeatedly state SF/IRA arent, and can never be - or plan B, to make Direct Rule more accountable to local parties.
I'm not seeing the "Do a Trimble, trust SF/IRAs word on disbandment/decommissioning/peaceful intentions and be betrayed, politically annialated and forced to resign". Face it, the peace process is dead. SF/IRA killed it.what you are also failing to grasp is that if the IRA has fully decommissioned and gone away what will these dissidents be complaining about
Youre making the ludicrous suggestion that SF/IRA will actually decommission and disband their terrorists. They wont. Theres not the slightest indication that they can. McGuinness said as much with his comments. They might pretend theyre gone, but its just impossible for SF/IRA to stop being terrorist thugs. They undertook to achieve decommissioning, they didnt. They undertook to observe a ceasefire, they havent. Theyve kept training, recruiting, arming, smuggling, thieving and beating children in housing estates.
This is when were supposed to praise theyre great contribution to the peace proccess - this is SF/IRA at *full* stretch, giving 100% commitment to the peace proccess, when the strain on them and their members was so great that weve seen splits within the provos. Weve been told again and again that SF/IRA cant do anymore to help things along, and now suddenly theyre going to wrap it all up in a wet weekend? Its just a desperate Adams and Co trying to save their image by rearranging the deck chairs. You can bet the message to the rank and file thugs is very different than the one going out to the public.actually sinn fein won parliamentary seats in 1918 and various elections between then and now
As a historical point, SF/IRA are only one of many parties to claim descent from the old SF - which incidentially was formed by Griffith on the principle of non-violent seperatism. FG and Fianna Fail ( and by extension the PDs) can claim direct descent from the old SF. Seeing as the provos are derived from a historically ultra violent anti democratic splinter group of republicanism- they after all split from the Officials when they decided violence was not the way to go in Northern Ireland - then I dont think they can claim to be the inheritors of the old SF. Certainly SF/IRA are not the party that won those seats in the 1918 elections. They after all have idealogically rejected democracy and party politics in favour of military rule and terrorism.how long will adams and co take I dont know but is it not better that they take it slow and bring the vast rump of the republican movement with them than race ahead and leave a large rump behind
Really! Wow, so they need to go so slow as to not admit murder is a crime or that arms belong only in the hands of the democratic government unless the mad bad lads go mad and start killing in a frenzy, but theyre idealogically ready to disband the thugs and treat them like something they found on their shoe? I dont know whats funnier, that SF/IRA spout this bull**** or that people believe it. On the other hand, Vincent "provo" Browne seems to make a decent living out of being SF/IRA's useful idiot.
To be honest, I dont want them to announce disbandment or decoupling from the terrorist wing of their movement. That lets them off the hook publicly, when the reality is nothing will have changed. I want them to stop acting like spoiled brats, stop recruiting, stop training, stop arming themselves, stop crinimal activity, stop murdering people and stop maiming people. And to get on the policing board and endorse the PSNI so that people get a more acceptable police force than thugs in balaclavas.
Maybe if they do that, then people will give them more credit for their peaceful intentions. And if they cant do that for whatever idealogical/political reasons, then how the hell can you argue their capable of enforcing disbandment or ceased activity?0 -
Sand wrote:Yeah, lets see what theyre saying
I dont know, from my reading of that the DUP has two positions - either a devloved executive open only to lawful democratic parties - which they repeatedly state SF/IRA arent, and can never be - or plan B, to make Direct Rule more accountable to local parties.
I'm not seeing the "Do a Trimble, trust SF/IRAs word on disbandment/decommissioning/peaceful intentions and be betrayed, politically annialated and forced to resign". Face it, the peace process is dead. SF/IRA killed it.
Youre making the ludicrous suggestion that SF/IRA will actually decommission and disband their terrorists. They wont. Theres not the slightest indication that they can. McGuinness said as much with his comments. They might pretend theyre gone, but its just impossible for SF/IRA to stop being terrorist thugs. They undertook to achieve decommissioning, they didnt. They undertook to observe a ceasefire, they havent. Theyve kept training, recruiting, arming, smuggling, thieving and beating children in housing estates.
This is when were supposed to praise theyre great contribution to the peace proccess - this is SF/IRA at *full* stretch, giving 100% commitment to the peace proccess, when the strain on them and their members was so great that weve seen splits within the provos. Weve been told again and again that SF/IRA cant do anymore to help things along, and now suddenly theyre going to wrap it all up in a wet weekend? Its just a desperate Adams and Co trying to save their image by rearranging the deck chairs. You can bet the message to the rank and file thugs is very different than the one going out to the public.
As a historical point, SF/IRA are only one of many parties to claim descent from the old SF - which incidentially was formed by Griffith on the principle of non-violent seperatism. FG and Fianna Fail ( and by extension the PDs) can claim direct descent from the old SF. Seeing as the provos are derived from a historically ultra violent anti democratic splinter group of republicanism- they after all split from the Officials when they decided violence was not the way to go in Northern Ireland - then I dont think they can claim to be the inheritors of the old SF. Certainly SF/IRA are not the party that won those seats in the 1918 elections. They after all have idealogically rejected democracy and party politics in favour of military rule and terrorism.
Really! Wow, so they need to go so slow as to not admit murder is a crime or that arms belong only in the hands of the democratic government unless the mad bad lads go mad and start killing in a frenzy, but theyre idealogically ready to disband the thugs and treat them like something they found on their shoe? I dont know whats funnier, that SF/IRA spout this bull**** or that people believe it. On the other hand, Vincent "provo" Browne seems to make a decent living out of being SF/IRA's useful idiot.
To be honest, I dont want them to announce disbandment or decoupling from the terrorist wing of their movement. That lets them off the hook publicly, when the reality is nothing will have changed. I want them to stop acting like spoiled brats, stop recruiting, stop training, stop arming themselves, stop crinimal activity, stop murdering people and stop maiming people. And to get on the policing board and endorse the PSNI so that people get a more acceptable police force than thugs in balaclavas.
Maybe if they do that, then people will give them more credit for their peaceful intentions. And if they cant do that for whatever idealogical/political reasons, then how the hell can you argue their capable of enforcing disbandment or ceased activity?
ok i have listened to various DUP politicians in the last few months and when questioned they concede that if the IRA disband and it is proven they will share power with SF
as i have said that is obviously not their first option but they realise that in the end of the day SF are the largest nationalist party the SDLP are not going into voluntary coalition as it would be political suicide
ok you dont believe that the PIRA will go away i cant prove they will no more than you can prove they wont we will have to wait and see
of course alot of political parties have their foundations back in SF however SF is Sinn fein it is the continous party since 1905 others have left and formed new parties but SF is the same party
TBH i dont think you want the peace process to suceed I think you would be far happier if you could return to the 70s or 80s when everyone knew where they stood
If you actually stood back and looked at the situation you would see that the SDLP and the Irish government have won SF is not the party it was 20 years ago they have been dragged into the middle ground they are no longer any kind of an extreme or revolutionary party they are not even radical
SF policy now is basically the same as what the SDLP was 20 years ago they have done a new labour and become more like their opponents they have not attracted more people over to their way of thinking they have changed their own way of thinking
Ok they still have links to the IRA but they are as desparate to rid themselves of those links as the officials were in the 70s or FF in the 30s
and look how long it took the sticks to get rid of the OIRA
SF dont want the IRA they now see the IRA not as a liberating army but as an impediment to the Progress of SF and their desire to be in power in both jurisdictions
you think they like their guns too much to give them up I think adams and co wont give a **** how much they like their guns they are going end of story0 -
cdebru, we'd already read Sand's post, thanks. There's no need to quote the whole thing; quote selectively to give context if necessary.
And please, please, please, please use punctuation. Your posts make my head hurt.0 -
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How do you propose that disbandment be proven?cdebru wrote:ok i have listened to various DUP politicians in the last few months and when questioned they concede that if the IRA disband and it is proven they will share power with SF
How do you make that out? Just because of the name?cdebru wrote:of course alot of political parties have their foundations back in SF however SF is Sinn fein it is the continous party since 1905 others have left and formed new parties but SF is the same party
...apart from that niggling little issue that hasn't gone away, you know.cdebru wrote:SF is not the party it was 20 years ago they have been dragged into the middle ground they are no longer any kind of an extreme or revolutionary party they are not even radical
So why not publicly disown them? Condemn them, repudiate them, call upon them to disarm and disband immediately - you know, all those things that every other political party does.cdebru wrote:Ok they still have links to the IRA but they are as desparate to rid themselves of those links as the officials were in the 70s or FF in the 30s
and look how long it took the sticks to get rid of the OIRA
SF dont want the IRA they now see the IRA not as a liberating army but as an impediment to the Progress of SF and their desire to be in power in both jurisdictions0 -
oscarBravo wrote:cdebru, we'd already read Sand's post, thanks. There's no need to quote the whole thing; quote selectively to give context if necessary.
And please, please, please, please use punctuation. Your posts make my head hurt.
i did not know they made you a mod here
and appointed to the grammar police as well0 -
oscarBravo wrote:How do you propose that disbandment be proven?.
i dont propose anything i would imagine that the DUP will insist on a period of quarantineoscarBravo wrote:How do you make that out? Just because of the name? ....
no because it is a continous line from then till nowoscarBravo wrote:apart from that niggling little issue that hasn't gone away, you know. So why not publicly disown them? Condemn them, repudiate them, call upon them to disarm and disband immediately - you know, all those things that every other political party does.
because adams and co are only now getting into a position where they can do that and not lose support0 -
Fine, next time I'll report your post instead.cdebru wrote:i did not know they made you a mod here
Let's be fair: it's not like I'm dismissing the validity of your arguments because of a misplaced apostrophe. I'm letting you know that paragraph after paragraph of unpunctuated text is almost indecipherable.cdebru wrote:and appointed to the grammar police as well0 -
A period of quarantine? Is that a particular time period? Weeks? Months? When does it start? You think the DUP are going to take Gerry's word for it that the boys have disbanded?cdebru wrote:i dont propose anything i would imagine that the DUP will insist on a period of quarantine
In what sense? Given that many mainstream parties can trace their origin back to the original Sinn Féin, what makes the current incarnation special - apart, as I've already asked, from the name?cdebru wrote:no because it is a continous line from then till now
No other party is concerned about losing support by unreservedly and unconditionally condemning the IRA. What makes Sinn Féin different?cdebru wrote:because adams and co are only now getting into a position where they can do that and not lose support0 -
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cdebru wrote:I would imagine that the DUP will insist on a period of quarantine
I am not a fan of Internment without trial, shame on you sir !!!!!0 -
Sponge Bob wrote:I am not a fan of Internment without trial, shame on you sir !!!!!
how witty breaking my sides here anymore that was almost as good as situation0 -
oscarBravo wrote:Fine, next time I'll report your post instead. Let's be fair: it's not like I'm dismissing the validity of your arguments because of a misplaced apostrophe. I'm letting you know that paragraph after paragraph of unpunctuated text is almost indecipherable.
ok you do that
thendontreaditicouldnotgivea****0 -
oscarBravo wrote:A period of quarantine? Is that a particular time period? Weeks? Months? When does it start? You think the DUP are going to take Gerry's word for it that the boys have disbanded? In what sense? Given that many mainstream parties can trace their origin back to the original Sinn Féin, what makes the current incarnation special - apart, as I've already asked, from the name? No other party is concerned about losing support by unreservedly and unconditionally condemning the IRA. What makes Sinn Féin different?
I dont think SF will agree to it but the process will be dragged out so what you will get will be an effective quarantine
how long it will last who knows
the SF party that exists to day is the same continous party that has existed for the last 100 years
people have left and formed other parties but those that remain have always been called Sinn Fein0 -
Originally Posted by cdebru
no because it is a continous line from then till now
Really though how do you figure this?
If it's based on ignoring splits then the original sinn fein was absorbed into Labour (OSF/wp/dl/labour).
If you're talking about the majority split of the original party taking the title, then it's probably FF.
If you're give the title to the group which takes the most militant destructive wrong route, then it's probably 32CSM or similar ********, (though was in PSF's hands at one stage).
Perhaps you're talking about sticking to Griffiths founding principles, described by wiki as compromise based on dominion status?
Would that make UUP the spiritual inheritors to original SF?
Can you come up with a convincing reasoned path, or is it just a case of disowning your cousins for a larger piece of grandpa's estate.
IMO, once you dramatically change party principles then you're a different party.
Having brand name loyalty in corporations or political parties is asking to be mugged.0 -
Yes, I do find the various pronouncements by members of Sinn Fein fascinating. Disturbing, threatening and appalling though they may be, they also present fascinating insights into the mind of a tyrannical regime.cdebru wrote:yes all very interesting now can you provide a link where mclaughlin said the murder of robert mccartney was not a crime
As for a link, I’ve provided one. Haven’t you read it? When questioned on the death of Jean McConville, McLaughlin claimed this IRA murder wasn’t a crime. I am not aware that he has publicly retracted this. Do you have reason to believe that the SF chairman no longer thinks an IRA murder isn’t a crime?
Well, I would hardly expect both sides to step down. I believe that in this election Sinn Fein should have stood aside in all constituencies. This would have ackowledged that their conduct earlier in the year had rendered them unfit to participate in the democratic process. As a genuine democrat I would have been content to have seen them put themselves forward again when they’d wound down their anti-democratic armed wing. Until the IRA ceases its undemocratic activities, Sinn Fein should not besmirch the name of democracy by contesting elections.cdebru wrote:merely wondering why you only castigate one side for not stepping aside
if you believe as you seem to that a party that can not win a seat should not get in the way of one that can why not criticise the SDLP as well
How can you be? You consistently apologise for Sinn Fein.cdebru wrote:personally I am a democrat
And what do you think about the people Sinn Fein has forced from voting altogether? You claim to be a democrat and yet frequently argue the case of SF – a party that has excluded people from participating in election after election through the murders carried out by their armed wing. These people were not given a chance to make their minds up.cdebru wrote:i think the people should make their mind up and people should not be forced to vote for SF or the SDLP nor anybody else
Are you claiming that if the UK had had PR from the outset there’d have never been an IRA? I don’t believe the IRA has ever cared about the rights – electoral or otherwise – of people in the North. Their campaign of violence was only ever aimed at constitutional change – and not the kind that involved PR. If they had had a shread of concern for the electoral system they wouldn’t have butchered so many electors. Do you really expect us to believe the sort of revisionism spewed by Sinn Fein to cover for the appalling crimes of their armed wing? If the IRA were really so concerned with ‘peace and justice’, ‘an Ireland of equals’, ‘human rights’ and the other meaningless slogans used to revamp their bloody past then why unearth did they conduct a campaign of murder, violence and criminality. What has murder got to do with electoral rights? Do you suggest the Liberal Democrats should get themselves a private army to advance their case for PR?cdebru wrote:why should we just concentrate on that surely a proper democracy is the best way to ensure nobody has a private army
I never said it was. I warned you to be careful in case the party got hold of the idea. Then we’d have to listen to more whines concerning victimisation and another retrospective excuse for IRA butchery. As for what I read in my newspaper… you clearly have as little knowledge of that as you have of democracy.cdebru wrote:i never said it was aimed at republicans perhaps if you ever read anything else in your newspaper than articles related to the IRA you would have seen the liberal democrats and tories suffering because of the FPTP
You’re the one claiming to be a democrat and yet apologising for Sinn Fein. I merely suggest that you should establish for yourself if the entity you’re defending upholds the principle. I, on the other hand, have no need to make any such request. I can see clearly that SF don't give a damn for democracy.cdebru wrote:why should i ask them if you have a question for them ask them yourself
That sounds to me like Northern Ireland’s notorious whataboutery. People usually indulge in it when they want to avoid the issue of their own side's failings and blame everyone else intead. This is the risk that you run when focusing on the North – you can become ‘Northernised’. This involves, amongst other symptoms, spewing whataboutery when confronted with a painful truth about your own lot – ‘themun’s is just as bad’. It also involves the dogged justification of your own sides crimes, no matter how appallingly they may be. ‘They may be bastards, but they’re our bastards’. So, be on your guard in case these symptoms worsen or persist.cdebru wrote:you might also want to ask the british government loyalists unionists RUC etc etc
or did you not know that it was not just the IRA that killed people have you never got to read those articles since you have been too busy cutting and pasting anything to do with the IRA
I, however, have managed to maintain a balance and have no difficulty in condemning without qualification or whataboutery the appallingly actions of all sides involved in the North’s failure.
But if you want to avoid the crimes of the IRA and discuss those of others as a diversion, I’d suggest you do it elsewhere as this thread was created to deal with Sinn Fein.
There is indeed, but I’d rather deal with threats to democracy at home before moving unto those elsewhere. However, feel free to go ahead and forget about Sinn Fein and its armed wing anytime you want.cdebru wrote:you know there is a big world out there with plenty happening in it there is more to it than the IRA and SF0 -
ok i have listened to various DUP politicians in the last few months and when questioned they concede that if the IRA disband and it is proven they will share power with SF
Aye, and I'm sure if Gerry Adams was crowned King, Martin McGuinness Queen, and the UK was renamed United Ireland, SF/IRA would concede they would wish to remain in the United Ireland. SF/IRA would probably give you certain odds on that happening. The DUP politicians would probably give you certain odds on SF/IRA meeting their entry conditions. In fact, according to their manifesto they belive SF/IRA will *never* meet those conditions.
Face it, Paisley was in the papers today saying the elections demonstrated that the Belfast Agreement was buried. It's over. SF/IRA killed it.TBH i dont think you want the peace process to suceed I think you would be far happier if you could return to the 70s or 80s when everyone knew where they stood
I want a *real* proccess, not this smoke and mirrors dance SF/IRA have been playing for the last 11 years. After 11 years of concessions, appeasement and surrender where are we? Were only as far as we were in 1994, a loosely enforced tactical ceasefire that were threatened can be removed at any time? Decommissioning? Nah. Cease to activity? Nah. Rejection of violence? Nah. There has not been the slightest chance in the provo mindset or mentality since 1994. As McCartney found out, SF/IRA would still as happily gut you as look at you.
Everyone else has sat back and watched as terrorists walked free from jails, undermined our democracy with their subversion and again and again failed to fufill their undertakings whilst spitting in the face of those who tried to help them enter constitutional politics over terrorism.
Thats not a peace process. Thats a drawn out suicide note. Its only a shame that the situation got so bad that the DUP are the only party taking a sensible position regarding SF/IRA. SDLP are back to their lunacy of refusing to enter government without SF/IRA. Hopefully, they can be persuaded to see sense.0 -
MT wrote:Yes, I do find the various pronouncements by members of Sinn Fein fascinating. Disturbing, threatening and appalling though they may be, they also present fascinating insights into the mind of a tyrannical regime.
As for a link, I’ve provided one. Haven’t you read it? When questioned on the death of Jean McConville, McLaughlin claimed this IRA murder wasn’t a crime. I am not aware that he has publicly retracted this. Do you have reason to believe that the SF chairman no longer thinks an IRA murder isn’t a crime?
i take you mean you can not provide a link or any evidence to back up your claim
that mclaughlin said the murder of robert mccartney was not a crime
because robert mccartney was not murdered by the IRA he may have been murdered by members of the IRA but that is completely different thingMT wrote:Well, I would hardly expect both sides to step down. I believe that in this election Sinn Fein should have stood aside in all constituencies. This would have ackowledged that their conduct earlier in the year had rendered them unfit to participate in the democratic process. As a genuine democrat I would have been content to have seen them put themselves forward again when they’d wound down their anti-democratic armed wing. Until the IRA ceases its undemocratic activities, Sinn Fein should not besmirch the name of democracy by contesting elections.
how very democratic of you nevermind that the majority of nationalists vote for themMT wrote:How can you be? You consistently apologise for Sinn Fein.
i dont apologise for anyone if SF need to apololgise they can do it themselvesMT wrote:And what do you think about the people Sinn Fein has forced from voting altogether? You claim to be a democrat and yet frequently argue the case of SF – a party that has excluded people from participating in election after election through the murders carried out by their armed wing. These people were not given a chance to make their minds up.
I dont know of anyone murdered by SFMT wrote:Are you claiming that if the UK had had PR from the outset there’d have never been an IRA? I don’t believe the IRA has ever cared about the rights – electoral or otherwise – of people in the North. Their campaign of violence was only ever aimed at constitutional change – and not the kind that involved PR. If they had had a shread of concern for the electoral system they wouldn’t have butchered so many electors. Do you really expect us to believe the sort of revisionism spewed by Sinn Fein to cover for the appalling crimes of their armed wing? If the IRA were really so concerned with ‘peace and justice’, ‘an Ireland of equals’, ‘human rights’ and the other meaningless slogans used to revamp their bloody past then why unearth did they conduct a campaign of murder, violence and criminality. What has murder got to do with electoral rights? Do you suggest the Liberal Democrats should get themselves a private army to advance their case for PR?
I dont suggest anyone should get themselves a private army nor did i suggest that the lack of PR was ever a justification for armed struggleMT wrote:I never said it was. I warned you to be careful in case the party got hold of the idea. Then we’d have to listen to more whines concerning victimisation and another retrospective excuse for IRA butchery. As for what I read in my newspaper… you clearly have as little knowledge of that as you have of democracy.
yes when all else fails resort to insultsMT wrote:You’re the one claiming to be a democrat and yet apologising for Sinn Fein. I merely suggest that you should establish for yourself if the entity you’re defending upholds the principle. I, on the other hand, have no need to make any such request. I can see clearly that SF don't give a damn for democracy.
and you do though you would be quite happy to to ignore the largest nationalist party in the 6 counties
selective democracyMT wrote:That sounds to me like Northern Ireland’s notorious whataboutery. People usually indulge in it when they want to avoid the issue of their own side's failings and blame everyone else intead. This is the risk that you run when focusing on the North – you can become ‘Northernised’. This involves, amongst other symptoms, spewing whataboutery when confronted with a painful truth about your own lot – ‘themun’s is just as bad’. It also involves the dogged justification of your own sides crimes, no matter how appallingly they may be. ‘They may be bastards, but they’re our bastards’. So, be on your guard in case these symptoms worsen or persist.
I, however, have managed to maintain a balance and have no difficulty in condemning without qualification or whataboutery the appallingly actions of all sides involved in the North’s failure.
But if you want to avoid the crimes of the IRA and discuss those of others as a diversion, I’d suggest you do it elsewhere as this thread was created to deal with Sinn Fein.
as is virtually every thread you start
I know well crimes committed by the IRA that could never be excused or justified but unlike you I am not obsessed with the wrong doing of one side alone
look back and see when have you started or contributed to a thread dealing with the other side of the equation and compare that to the unhealthy obsession with everyhting the IRA or Sinn Fein have ever done good bad or indifferentMT wrote:There is indeed, but I’d rather deal with threats to democracy at home before moving unto those elsewhere. However, feel free to go ahead and forget about Sinn Fein and its armed wing anytime you want.
what threat to democracy
Sinn Fein are no longer a threat to democracy if they ever were
the IRA are no longer a threat to democracy I dont think they could overthrow the leadership of SF nevermind be a threat to democracy0 -
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Cork wrote:Sinn Fein and the IRA were under renewed pressure tonight following threats to burn down the homes of the family of murdered Belfast father-of-two Robert McCartney.
Theatning this family is yet another low even by NI standards.
McCartney threats 'not from republicans'
Don't forget that these are alleged threats that have been put at the door of republicans.0 -
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The cover up and intimidation surronding the McCarney murder was contempable. I think the facts of this murder are known together with the person who ordered it and the people who carried it out. But alas, it was covered up and there was subsequent intimidation.
Fair play to the McCartneys standing up to these people.
Only if the people of NI did likewise.Don't forget that these are alleged threats that have been put at the door of republicans.
The Threats were real. Just as the murder, intimidation and cover up was.0 -
Will you people please use some common sense. Do you seriously belive educated men like gerry adams and martin mcguinness would sanction such stupid actions against the Mcartneys?
It is clear that these threats are from petty mindless thugs simply acting on their own behalf with no regard or respect for the mccartney family or Sinn fein for that matter.just because they happen to be nationalists doesnt mean SF was involved. After all if a fianna fail supporter commits a crime nobody shoots off there mouth blaming ff.0 -
Babybing wrote:Do you seriously belive educated men like gerry adams and martin mcguinness would sanction such stupid actions against the Mcartneys?
I am not sure the educational achievements of either of these 2 individuals.It is clear that these threats are from petty mindless thugs simply acting on their own behalf with no regard or respect for the mccartney family or Sinn fein for that matter.just because they happen to be nationalists doesnt mean SF was involved. After all if a fianna fail supporter commits a crime nobody shoots off there mouth blaming ff.
But the murder happened in a pub with many members of both SF and the IRA.
Of course SF has a role to play to ensure that the McCartneys get justice.0 -
A Dub in Glasgo wrote:McCartney threats 'not from republicans'
Don't forget that these are alleged threats that have been put at the door of republicans.
Um thats Adams opinion, and seeing as you've demanded that Mc Dowell show the evidence that the IRA are behind the NI bank robbery, how about Adams shows us his proof that demonstrates his statement. Minutes of an IRA council meeting, footage of Adams going door to door of every republican hardman, asking them "did yis threaten those sisters"? "no?", "grand so". The only source he quotes in the article is the PSNI, and again this is oh so hilarious considering his second in command was rubbishing British security services intelligence on newsnight a few weeks ago.
Last night Adams was on the telly calling them "threats or alledged threats" just the way at the start of all this, it was "the alledged murder or manslaughter of robert Mc Cartney"
Occam's razor, the threats come the day after they win EU support for their bid for a civil action. Not even the dimwitest UDA thug is going to threaten them, and the IRA have plenty to lose by this action, the potential of a threat is likely, and the source is obvious, and Adams has spouted surprious nonsense to obfuscate the issue in the past.It is clear that these threats are from petty mindless thugs simply acting on their own behalf with no regard or respect for the mccartney family or Sinn fein for that matter.just because they happen to be nationalists doesnt mean SF was involved. After all if a fianna fail supporter commits a crime nobody shoots off there mouth blaming ff.
And again if FF had a unsanctioned private army, that they wheel out to make veiled threats during tense negotiations that'd be a valid point. If FF's private army had, despite being on cease fire for 7 years but nevertheless continued to use "punishment" attacks on youths in their communties, arm themselves, while on ceasefire, and recruit while on ceasefire, that'd be a valid point. If members of FF's private army had commited a henious murder aganist a member of same communities and covered it up, and then "thugs" likely to be members of self same valid army made threats aganist the family, then that'd be a valid point0 -
mycroft wrote:Um thats Adams opinion,
Uh huhand seeing as you've demanded that Mc Dowell show the evidence that the IRA are behind the NI bank robbery, how about Adams shows us his proof that demonstrates his statement.
Lapse into the 'prove that they did not do it' role rather than the more conventional 'prove that they did it'.Minutes of an IRA council meeting, footage of Adams going door to door of every republican hardman, asking them "did yis threaten those sisters"? "no?", "grand so". The only source he quotes in the article is the PSNI, and again this is oh so hilarious considering his second in command was rubbishing British security services intelligence on newsnight a few weeks ago.
see aboveLast night Adams was on the telly calling them "threats or alledged threats" just the way at the start of all this, it was "the alledged murder or manslaughter of robert Mc Cartney"
Everything is alleged until someone has been convictedOccam's razor, the threats come the day after they win EU support for their bid for a civil action. Not even the dimwitest UDA thug is going to threaten them, and the IRA have plenty to lose by this action, the potential of a threat is likely, and the source is obvious, and Adams has spouted surprious nonsense to obfuscate the issue in the past.
So you concede that it will be totally counter-productive for the IRA to issue these threats and you also concede that any group has to be pretty damn stupid to issue those threats. I agree with you on this but then you lose the plot by stating the source is obvious and Adams is kidding us on.
What, exactly, does does the IRA gain from these threats that would make it obvious that those threats were issued and they emanated from the IRA?0 -
A Dub in Glasgo wrote:
What, exactly, does does the IRA gain from these threats that would make it obvious that those threats were issued and they emanated from the IRA?
The motives for threatening the McCartneys are simple.
Interests want the McCartneys to stop their campaign.
They might not be used of people making a stand.
If there is no criminal conviction - I hope the MCcartneys will persue the murderers with a civil action.
These people should not get away with cold blooded murder.0 -
A Dub in Glasgo wrote:Uh huh
You tried to pass it off as a fact.
McCartney threats 'not from republicans',
A more accurate, or honest, way, would have been to include the quote "according to adams" in your post.Lapse into the 'prove that they did not do it' role rather than the more conventional 'prove that they did it'.
Do you really want to get into a burden of proof semantics debate? The only source quoted by Adams is the PSNI, an organisation you and other posters are quick to rubbish.see above
Adams is making a clear statement. He's also slipping in the implication that these threats are fabricated.Everything is alleged until someone has been convicted
Again semantics, and the bit that the sisters objected to in Adams statement was when he dropped in the manslaughter into his orginal statement. Shall we post the fun shinner backtracking on this case.
The very first SF statement was to condemn the "heavy handed" police arrest raids, no mention of the murder.
Maskey then condemn the violent knife culture and tried to smear robert Mc Cartney.
Adams then called it a murder or manslaughter.
Where SF are and where they were are the start of all this are two very different places.So you concede that it will be totally counter-productive for the IRA to issue these threats and you also concede that any group has to be pretty damn stupid to issue those threats.
I concede it would be counter productive to anyone with an ounce of sense, but those thugs in belfast don't seem to have much of that.I agree with you on this but then you lose the plot by stating the source is obvious and Adams is kidding us on.
The source is obvious, IRA thugs, however I doubt the council sanctioned this. But I don't doubt the sanctioned thugs of theirs made the threat, and it gives future evidence that the IRA are just a bunch of amoral psychopaths under loose control.What, exactly, does does the IRA gain from these threats that would make it obvious that those threats were issued and they emanated from the IRA?
Do I think they were issued by the IRA council no? Do I think it came from someone in the IRA yes? Do I think the concept of an IRA chain of command is an oxymoron, yes.
Saying that the IRA can't be held responsible for a rogue element inside itself is bull****. If a soldier did this and wasn't punished their would be outcry demands that his superior officers be reprimanded and tightening of recruitment policy to ensure such an element was not signed up in the first place, but we can't do that with the IRA and the sooner it's forced to disband the better.0 -
Again with the creative misreading of posts. mycroft said:A Dub in Glasgo wrote:So you concede that it will be totally counter-productive for the IRA to issue these threats and you also concede that any group has to be pretty damn stupid to issue those threats.
It's obvious what was meant. The IRA stand to lose out if the McCartney sisters pursue their current course of action....the threats come the day after they win EU support for their bid for a civil action... and the IRA have plenty to lose by this action...
Also, what mycroft said was that "not even the dimwitest UDA thug is going to threaten them..." You managed to spin this into "any group" being stupid to issue a threat. You don't seriously mean to suggest that an action that makes no sense for a Loyalist automatically makes no sense for a Republican?
If you don't believe the IRA threatened the sisters, exactly who do you think did?A Dub in Glasgo wrote:What, exactly, does does the IRA gain from these threats that would make it obvious that those threats were issued and they emanated from the IRA?0 -
Oh I almost laughed at her being caught out so bad...
On the last word on today fm during the week, they had mary Lou on and Matt asked her why she didnt support the motion before the EUro parliament that had just passed funds for a civil prosecution in the Mccartney case.
It's because of them asking that people go to the PSNI she said,thats political.
But and wait for it, she then mentioned the guys that went into the police and were sent away (mentioned many times on this board by Sinn Féin supporters too by the way and it often puzzled me)
Mary Lou said that the PSNI had questions to answer because of that....
However Matt had Cathern McCartney on the other line while Mary Lou was still on and asked her about it.
Catherine McCartney said that Sinn Féin keep mentioning that incident, but what Sinn Féin dont tell you is that the guys turned up to give a statement allright and when the police questioned them they invoked their right to silence :rolleyes:
Thats why the police had to send them away...
Mary Lou wasnt expecting to be caught out on that revelation, it took the wind out of her sails, thats for sure.0 -
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Ok, you can keep all the Sinn Féin stuff in here for now guys, unless theres a reason (and let it be a good one) to start another thread involving them specefically.
That includes talking about Sinn Féin's attitude to the McCartney murder unless of course ye think theres a pressing need for a thread all of its own on that subject.
Keep the separate discussion on the IRA still recruiting in that thread and any SF connotation towards that can go there also.
Here endeth the thread tidy up for now.
Carry on folks.0
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