Question RE: Snake Eater

senordingdong

I'm not sure about this but from the Boss' speach in the end movie, I got the impression that

she was Ocelots mother.

Did anybody else get this or am I way off?
If I am can somebody tell me what it is?

BlitzKrieg

yes that is one of the more popular theories going around with fans. So your not far off, look over at gamefaqs there's a huge history of mgs theory faq and one section is on ocelot.

Kazaanova

You get told by Eva during a optional codec conversation that Ocelot is the Boss's son. Thats why hes only like 19 and a major.

senordingdong

Why would they make such a big deal about it in story telling terms if you can find out about it through a lame codec convo?

Where/when did you have to make that call to hear that Kazaanova?

Crucifix

I never heard that codec conversation, but I thought that myself.

senordingdong

This is ratehr confusing.

Considering her speach, and the way the two of them look at each other.

Then there was

the bit when Ocelot first meets Snake in Rassvat, where he thinks that Snake is the Boss. Unless he doesn't know himself. But then what was their interaction in the toruture room all about?

Kazaanova

I dont 100% understand it, I don't think anyone does. As great as the entire Metal Gear Solid saga is, theres a few flaws along the way.

I don't think Eva says "Ocelot is the Boss's son", what she says instead is that Ocelot is 20 years old, he was born on a battlefield, one of his parents was a legendary soldier, his mother has a snake scar. I've had her tell me bits on info about Ocelot, and read about some of the convos, what she told me was that hes 20 and is the son of a great soldier. I had the convo I think just before you meet up with Eva in the waterfall.

I think they should of said it out straight, because they could of used it to explain the entire Liquid thing in MGS2. If Ocelot is the Boss's son, then he is also the Sorrows son, and the Sorrow has a connection with dead people and all that stuff. But that probably would of made the whole Liquid thing in Sons of Liberty even more confusing.

When I said that it explains why Ocelot is in such a high rank at 19 or 20, I think it was because he was raised as an elite soldier by the Patriots(he is working for them always) and not because he is the son of the Boss.

I'm not 100% sure, but I dont think Ocelot knows hes the Boss's son. I think the Boss probably suspects it. It doesnt make sense though. If Eva knew that Ocelots mother had a snake scar, wouldnt Ocelot know too? Wouldnt the Boss know and say to herself "Ocelots mother has a snake scar. Hey! I have a snake scar!"?

senordingdong

Maybe

she knows but he doesn't.

Crucifix

The child was taken from The Boss by the patriots, I assumed the child wouldn't know who it's parents were.

senordingdong

Hmmmm.....that still leaves

the gestures the two make at each other during the torture scene

unanswered.

BlitzKrieg

i think thats for:

when ocelot betrays the leader for Boss (hence the nods etc) and helps Snake finish him off.

Deadwing

My question RE:snake eater is, 'has kojima gone completely insane with this game?'. Seriously..what the hell?? At least the other metalg ears were slightly realistic..but all these guys shooting bees out of thier mouths, and old men with enormous eyeballs, invisible backwards walking tree climbing monkey men, what the hell?? I got to the part where youre climbing a ladder for 5 minutes while listening to the main theme and havent played it since...whats fun about climbing a ladder for 5 minutes??? And that theme sucked too

Illuvatar

Oh, and I suppose Vamp running over water (MGS2) or Psychomantis floating above the air with telepathic powers (MGS) is completely normal!? It's fiction deadwig that's why I like it anything can happen if it was history you most likely know the out come. And you have to stick with the history you can't change it around. That's the difference between fiction and non-fiction.

Deadwing

Whats more believable, that someone might have telepathic powers, or that someone can grow bees in thier stomach and shoot bees at you from thier mouth?? Snake eater is just so over the top its strays into the realm of comedy

BlitzKrieg

i think taking in A) the fanbase and then where the game was made (Japan) you could apply that Metal Gear Solid was never meant to be *realistic* but more closely akin to the Animes which are so popular in Japan. The characters (all of them) and how the game is told is very akin to anime.

For example. Compare Animes like Ninja Scroll, Trigun and the Macross saga to Metal Gear solid. 2 major elements of Metal gear solid games appear in these animes. Those are A) themed villians (Bee man in MGS 3, is very similar to a bee man in ninja scroll, Trigun is full of perculiar themed villians much alike to mgs. including psychics etc) The big explanation. In Hollywood cinema and most other world cinema's big explanation narratives are usually frowned on yet in japanese anime (prob due to its links to manga) you tend to get large moments where one character explains the relevence of some distant topic to the event at the moment, usually with a montage of footage.

Metal Gear Solid is not meant to be realistic, Its the Japanese equivilent of James Bond a action movie, and Japanese culture has clearly influenced the characters and narrative structure.

(the 5 minute ladder moment is again relevence to action movies.)


And while all that is wonderfull. Deadwing you completely right. This is a game so most of this shoul have no place here. But there are alot of people (myself included) who like the melding of computer game and film narrative, so its becoming more of a perculiar taste (like how some people love hong kong films or avant garde).




I'm still waiting for computer games to take a risk and try and create their own narrativ e and form and stop ripping of films for their cut scenes (Half life 2 is the closest we have gotten to a wholly game narrative. impossible to recreate in film) My biggest gripe with the 32bit era and onwards was that games lost their own narrative in exchange for movie like cut scenes

(Sonic the hedgehog is the perfection of *silent* games, no dialogue or narrative yet the gamer himself if he gets into the game creates his own narrative in the game)

Crucifix

For me Psycho Mantis was a little stupid but bareable, until I played MGS2. By the time I got to MGS3, I didn't care about magic powers. It does seem especially funny in Snake Eater though, because it's part cold war drama, Snake coming to terms with his duty

(Having to kill the Boss)

et cetera, part crazy anime action.

Deadwing

Yeah, while i agree mgs was never very realistic, i jsut think that the charcters in snake eater are for one thing, comepletely ludicrous, and for another, just not very good. Not one of them was a patch on vulcan raven for example. I just think kojima went really overboard in snake eater..seriously, i just cant believe that bit with the ladder... :rolleyes:

BlitzKrieg

i'll admit i thought the bosses in MGS3 were nothing on the previous games simply because none of them were developed except the Boss. In fact my biggest gripe with MGS3 is the characters. They dont interact as well as the others. THe major difference between Snake and Solid Snake, is that Snake takes his orders like a good soldier. While i'll admit it makes sense to differente the two characters, i felt that to become BIG BOSS and later betray the USA Snake would have more of a defiant streak to him then he did in the game.

(But his conversations with the wildlife expert are great)

Illuvatar

I agree with you Blitz, they have no history their just.....there. But if you're going to betray someone you have to play the fool. But what I think really pissed him off was The Boss dieing and she died a traitor and not telling Snake. I believe that's what started his betrayal.
I also agree with the characters being similar to anime ones. But I still think MGS 3 is the best. It's more realistic..... and yet it's not.

Kazaanova

I also agree that the boss characters in Snake Eater are terrible. Their gimmicks are OK, and they were great to fight, but they were just way too under developed. However, the characters in Snake Eater are overall better than MGS1 and 2(and probably any other game). But I love all the MGS games too much to compare them, they're all great.

i felt that to become BIG BOSS and later betray the USA Snake would have more of a defiant streak to him then he did in the game.

Disagree there, I thought it was perfect. That bad ass walk at the end, the way he looked at the president, one of the best cut scenes of all time. Even the text at the end was perfect.

Crucifix

I liked some of the little touches to Snake's character, such as his little gun and gun technique obsession moments.
As for the Big Boss-ness, I thought the ending did well, as did the scene with Granin (

"Metal....Gear?!"

), but I kind of expected

that Snake would end up keeping the Shagohad Data and the Philosphers legacy for himself, giving him the means to later do his thing

.

senordingdong

I felt the idea for the Cobras was beyond brilliant, the whoel emotion thing, but I felt they were all poorly though out, except for the Fury and the End.
The battle with the End is one of the bets boss battles I've ever had in my life.

Anyway...to DeadWig...the ladder thing isn't that bad...considering he was climbing a mountain.
Also, the better boss battles come after that part.
The fights with the Cobras only makes up half opf the boss fights.

Deadwing

senordingdong wrote:

Anyway...to DeadWig...the ladder thing isn't that bad...considering he was climbing a mountain.

Yes maybe so but climbing the ladder for 5 minutes didnt make me think 'wow this is great its really like climbing a mountain!', it made me think 'christ this is boring'. They couldve shown a small cut scene of snake climbing the ladder in 10 seconds instead of dragging it out, just so you can listen to the really bad theme tune while pushing 'up' for 5 mins :rolleyes: Thats not fun, its just dull and wholely unnecessary.

senordingdong

That may be the case with some, it was actually thrown in solely to hear the theme tune again.

Forunatly for me, I liked the tune, so I wasn't bothered by that part.

Vokes

Although, no where near as good as MGS1's theme tune.

TerrorFirmer

Deadwing wrote:

Whats more believable, that someone might have telepathic powers, or that someone can grow bees in thier stomach and shoot bees at you from thier mouth?? Snake eater is just so over the top its strays into the realm of comedy

At least most of MGS is realistic with an interesting touch of oddness.

MGS3 is just plain and simple totally and insanely odd with a realistic background.

TBH I loved MGS, but I don't like Snake eater at all.....

Although, no where near as good as MGS1's theme tune.

Lets not get started on the end of MGS3 with the Shaft style 70's score thats about out of place as they could have possibily hoped for. That tune seriously ruins the moment. Now, Imagine how great it would be with the MGS original one...! :cool:

Illuvatar

I don't care for the music in MGS 3 at all. If they put the theme from MGS 2 in it, it would be too cool, plus that's about the only thing I like about MGS 2.

The ladder scene is not 5 minutes, more like 3 to 3 and a half.

Crucifix

I loved the MGS3 soundtrack. Theme was very bondish, and at other points they nicely blended strains from that theme into the action music. And the bit where

the back half of the Shagohod detachs and the front part drives up the bridge

, great dramatic music.

Vokes

Hey, i watched that E3 MGS video which says Kojima is back directing/writing MGS4.

I thought he was bailing out of the series after Snake Eater.....?

BlitzKrieg

he says that after every metal gear solid.

beginning to suspect its marketing. *oh new MGs doesnt look good...WAIT! whats that, could it be? YES IT IS! Kojima riding over the horizan on a white stallion HE WILL MAKE THIS THE BEST MGS!*

increase in sales.

or

*MUST BUY THIS GAME..IT IS KOJIMA'S LAST MGS GAME...MUST SAVOUR IT*

increase in sales.

Kazaanova

BlitzKrieg wrote:

he says that after every metal gear solid.

beginning to suspect its marketing. *oh new MGs doesnt look good...WAIT! whats that, could it be? YES IT IS! Kojima riding over the horizan on a white stallion HE WILL MAKE THIS THE BEST MGS!*

increase in sales.

or

*MUST BUY THIS GAME..IT IS KOJIMA'S LAST MGS GAME...MUST SAVOUR IT*

increase in sales.

I can see this as a marketing thing, but I don't think it is. Nothing was ever really confirmed that Hideo wasnt doing MGS4, all he really said is that he wont be involved in the same way as he was in the others, and thats sort of true.