85,000 EU migrants move to Ireland

daveirl

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KnowItAll

PaulinCork wrote:

could a moderator please ban Know-it all?

What do Nigerians do?
In Cork there are doctors from Nigeria, a lot of food shops, hairdressers and internet cafes run by people from Nigeria , and there's a kick-ass Nigerian restaurant on MacCurtain Street.

Ya, ban me because PaulinCork does not agree with my views.

I'm from Cork too and I can state for a fact that Cork people are not very happy with all these foreigners coming into the country! I think you should open your eyes to the real world.

KnowItAll

gandalf wrote:

If I see anymore generalised rubbish like this on here then I will ban you.

What about the generalisation of the unemployed? Are you going to ban those people who generalise the unemployed?

I'm not unemployed - Just in case anyone was wondering!

BlitzKrieg

its not generalisation its an economic fact. Open up any economic book and it will inform when unemployment drops to this level then it is the closest one gets to full employment taking in seasonal employment etc.

KnowItAll

BlitzKrieg wrote:

its not generalisation its an economic fact.

Those economic facts are got by generalising. Yes, it's common sence to generalise, I know that but my point was that I was threatened with being banned for generalising. So I had too show that moderator that everybody generalises. The economic books need to generalise because it's the common sence thing to do.

billy the squid

actually i would not call them generalising. When you take a look at how many of those 110,000 people who have been unemployed for 12 months or more.

There is work out there, and it pays more than the Dole, so why are they on the dole for years. either they are unable to do so due to a disability, or are too bone idle.

Its not an uncommon occourance to see people in the HR office where I work looking for "letters for the dole office to say they came looking for work"

the same people will be the first to complain when they walk into a shop and see a black face behind the counter!

in short, if they havent worked in the last 24 months, they are not likely to work in the next 24 months

simu

KnowItAll wrote:

I'm from Cork too and I can state for a fact that Cork people are not very happy with all these foreigners coming into the country! I think you should open your eyes to the real world.

Correction: You can state for a fact that at least one Cork person (i.e. you) is not very happy with all these foreigners coming into the country.

BuffyBot

There is work out there, and it pays more than the Dole

OT, but that's a bit simplistic - take in the cost of travel, work/home locations, child care in certain circumstances and it does not pay more than the dole. I think you would find a considerable number of people in that Catch 22 situation in those figures.

the_syco

Wicknight wrote:

We are a country that should have a population over 14 million. We are in the middle of an economic boom with record low unemployment. For one of the first times in history we need immigrant workers from Europe and the World more than they need us.

Why should we have 14 million? Is it because of the large families? The large families which were made smaller, because some of them were picked off by the famine, smallpox, or the English? I say English, as the English owned the big plantations, which the Irish lived on, and they could throw you out of your home, if they wanted to. And if you have no home, you either go on a coffin ship to the US, or die.
Oh, and about the lie of the land. Each person grew up, off some land, unless they lived in a town, and provided a service. Now, if they didn't die of the famine (as in, if it didn't happen), they wouldn't be able to produce as many children, as the plots of land would become smaller, and smaller. Thus, if the famine never happened, nor any other bad things, the population would not be 14 million, as we wouldn't need to breed like rabbits, nor provide for some many offspring.

Needless to say the 110,000 unemployed haven't a hope.

Will someone PLEASE think of the students! Yes, all those people over the age of 18, who are not working full time. How many are there, and does this figure include them?

simu wrote:

One example: I've seen some mention made in the papers of children arriving into junior infants without a word of English. This wouldn't be a problem if resource teachers were plentiful and available to bring them up to scratch but they're not and we could end up with a two-tier system where native speakers of English have a huge advantage over those with little knowledge of the language.

Well... thats one problem. Another problem is the local GP. Some don't take on asyulm seekers for one reason: no speakee englishee. Same problem goes for those who come here with no english.
F*cking charades, people! Your stomach... it hurts... it pains... your pregnant... it... has a big fish inside...? Two words? 1st word... sounds like...

You get the message. The entire infastructure has english in it. No english, your up sh|t creek without a paddle very quickly!

Quantum wrote:

If you look around you at our society you will find, in my opinion, that people are more insular than ever. Trying to even get people to mix with others in their own road is a major job, never mind people from other countries. And what do people do to try to promote this ? They hold a BBQ evening, or a sing song evening or some kind of 'event' that brings people together.
To anyone that tells me that people 'naturally' mix and socialise - I say rubbish !

Totally agree with this point.

Quantum wrote:

The Irish did it and do it all over the world.

Again, I agree. We have an Irish pub in nearly every country in the world. Shows how much we "interact", aven if we're miles from home!

=-=

Oh, and the US needs lot of people to keep the country going. Spot the native Indian, tho. So the year 2050 may not be so very far away, but still, I doubt it. I'd say the year 3000, at the very least.

billy the squid

BuffyBot wrote:

OT, but that's a bit simplistic - take in the cost of travel, work/home locations, child care in certain circumstances and it does not pay more than the dole. I think you would find a considerable number of people in that Catch 22 situation in those figures.

My point is in response to KnowItAll who thinks that to state that the unemployment figures could fall further if we didnt have any foreigners, and to state that whoever is on unemployment benefit now are not likely to find work irrespective of how many foreign nationals are in ireland, is generalising, which it is not.

Most of what is on the live register now is likely to be on the live register five years from now.

The fact that the high cost of childcare, moving house, and travel is more of an inditment of our job incentive schemes than our immigration policy.

QualderWahl

Coincidentally, whilst watching the RTE news last night there happened to be a report on the Spenser Dock development in Dublin. The proposed development will be one of the largest scale mixed retail / recreational / residential (note the fancy alliteration ) initiatives in Europe.

Anyway, there was a protest by the locals in the docklands that they simply could not secure any form of employment on the construction site. The report stated that 90 locals had applied for various positions and did not receive any acknowledgement of their application, let alone an interview. This is despite the fact that many of them are tradesmen or labourers wth several years experience. In fact the guy interviewed directly, stated that that he had been unemployed for a year and could not comprehend the reason for this due to the proliferation of construction projects in Dublin.

The RTE reporter stated euphemistically that the jobs were being absorbed by "outsiders". I think this report outlines (i) the fact that we certainly do not have full employment in Ireland, (ii) Irish people are not too lazy to get their hands dirty as several posters have suggested, (iii) "Outsiders" are taking some jobs at the expense of locals. The locals have decided to be proactive about the situation and are organising a protest to highlight the discrepancy. Good luck to them. This will ensure greater transparancy in recruitment practices.

This belies the increasingly shrill claims of people that anybody who wants a job can secure employment without any undue hassle.

QualderWahl

QualderWahl wrote:

I think this report outlines (i) the fact that we certainly do not have full employment in Ireland, (ii) Irish people are not too lazy to get their hands dirty as several posters have suggested,

Does it though, we havent a clue other than a few words from the interviewee what his qualifications are, we havent seen his cv or references.

(iii) "Outsiders" are taking some jobs at the expense of locals. The locals have decided to be proactive about the situation and are organising a protest to highlight the discrepancy. Good luck to them. This will ensure greater transparancy in recruitment practices.

Are the outsiders foreign?

This belies the increasingly shrill claims of people that anybody who wants a job can secure employment without any undue hassle.

Being involved in the running of an employment agency myself,I can give you my own categoric experience that we are unable to find locals to fill many reasonably paid jobs.We've had no choice in many cases but to source them abroad.

QualderWahl

Earthman wrote:

Does it though, we havent a clue other than a few words from the interviewee what his qualifications are, we havent seen his cv or references.

No, but surely we do have to give the guy the benefit of the doubt. He was prepared to go on national TV to make his case. This also applies to the other members of the protest group.

Are the outsiders foreign?

I can't say for certain. The only term referenced was "outsiders". An RTE news report would never explicitly state "foreigners". The content of the reporting needs to be clarified.

Being involved in the running of an employment agency myself,I can give you my own categoric experience that we are unable to find locals to fill many reasonably paid jobs.We've had no choice in many cases but to source them abroad.

Please do provide some evidence of your categoric experience.

QualderWahl

QualderWahl wrote:

Please do provide some evidence of your categoric experience.

Not in public I won't, but what I will say is that my personal experience is at least as valid as your post.
You can pm me if you wish.

QualderWahl

Earthman wrote:

Not in public I won't, but what I will say is that my personal experience is at least as valid as your post.
You can pm me if you wish.

That's fair enough. I'd better get stuck into some work but I'll PM you later if I get a chance.

mycroft

QualderWahl wrote:

Coincidentally, whilst watching the RTE news last night there happened to be a report on the Spenser Dock development in Dublin. The proposed development will be one of the largest scale mixed retail / recreational / residential (note the fancy alliteration ) initiatives in Europe.

Anyway, there was a protest by the locals in the docklands that they simply could not secure any form of employment on the construction site. The report stated that 90 locals had applied for various positions and did not receive any acknowledgement of their application, let alone an interview. This is despite the fact that many of them are tradesmen or labourers wth several years experience. In fact the guy interviewed directly, stated that that he had been unemployed for a year and could not comprehend the reason for this due to the proliferation of construction projects in Dublin.

The RTE reporter stated euphemistically that the jobs were being absorbed by "outsiders". I think this report outlines (i) the fact that we certainly do not have full employment in Ireland, (ii) Irish people are not too lazy to get their hands dirty as several posters have suggested, (iii) "Outsiders" are taking some jobs at the expense of locals. The locals have decided to be proactive about the situation and are organising a protest to highlight the discrepancy. Good luck to them. This will ensure greater transparancy in recruitment practices.

This belies the increasingly shrill claims of people that anybody who wants a job can secure employment without any undue hassle.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0516/index.html

Is the news run down for yesterday monday's news on rte;

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0515/index.html and this is sundays
The closest anything to a development protest is Richard BB fighting the good fight over plans to develop Dun Laoghaire baths.

Here is a google search under 'Spencer Dock Protest'

http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&q=Spencer+dock+protest&btnG=Google+Search&meta=cr%3DcountryIE

And here is one for Spenser Dock Protest
http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&q=Spenser+dock+protest&btnG=Search&meta=cr%3DcountryIE

I cannot find a single mention of the protest mentioned by you by locals over the employment of outsiders.

And I would very much like to hear for myself how "the RTE reporter stated euphemistically that the jobs were being absorbed by "outsiders". I just want to see if this is hyperbole or conjecture on your part. Would you mind terribly pointing out where you heard this?

QualderWahl

mycroft wrote:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0516/index.html

Is the news run down for yesterday monday's news on rte;

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0515/index.html and this is sundays
The closest anything to a development protest is Richard BB fighting the good fight over plans to develop Dun Laoghaire baths.

Here is a google search under 'Spencer Dock Protest'

http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&q=Spencer+dock+protest&btnG=Google+Search&meta=cr%3DcountryIE

And here is one for Spenser Dock Protest
http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&q=Spenser+dock+protest&btnG=Search&meta=cr%3DcountryIE

I cannot find a single mention of the protest mentioned by you by locals over the employment of outsiders.

And I would very much like to hear for myself how "the RTE reporter stated euphemistically that the jobs were being absorbed by "outsiders". I just want to see if this is hyperbole or conjecture on your part. Would you mind terribly pointing out where you heard this?

Well it's not a figment of my imagination. It was definitely on either the RTE or TV3 news last night. There should be an audio file as one of the guys leading the protest was interviewed directly. I guess I will just have to wait until somebody else posts confirming that they too saw the interview. I can assure you, it's not hyperbole on my past.

Chillax mycroft, you sound angry !

Actually this term "outsiders" intrigues me also.
It would want to be clarified.
I know of road building companies ( with the exception of Gamma ) employing outsiders when doing large projects.
For projects near Dublin, many of these "outsiders" are from Cork Kerry Mullingar , Donegal etc etc
I doubt there would ever be or could ever be an official policy to discriminate against this type of "outsider" or grounds to complain against them or their employers.

Chillax mycroft, you sound angry !

please don't address posters here in that manner.

mycroft

QualderWahl wrote:

Well it's not a figment of my imagination. It was definitely on either the RTE or TV3 news last night. There should be an audio file as one of the guys leading the protest was interviewed directly. I guess I will just have to wait until somebody else posts confirming that they too saw the interview. I can assure you, it's not hyperbole on my past.

Chillax mycroft, you sound angry !

I hate to point it out to you, but it's up to the person who posts something to support it. You can't state you saw something and cross your arms and expect the rest of the community to support it. Seeing as I can't find the protest reported on Google.ie or Google news, it hardly seems credible that either;

1. Tv3 were the only news organisation to cover it.

2. Rte were the only news organisation to report it, and failed to upload the story to the net.

And seeing as this "report" is used by you to back up the following claims;

this report outlines (i) the fact that we certainly do not have full employment in Ireland, (ii) Irish people are not too lazy to get their hands dirty as several posters have suggested, (iii) "Outsiders" are taking some jobs at the expense of locals.

and more importantly


This belies the increasingly shrill claims of people that anybody who wants a job can secure employment without any undue hassle.

You accuse the other side of this debate of "shrilly debating". But you produce as evidence of your argument, a TV segment that I can't find any evidence existed, never mind any evidence of this protest.

How about you be a dear wander off find a link to this report which you use to back up your entire pov.

bagocans

Macmorris wrote:

The government knew that people's fear over immigration was one of the main reasons that Irish people originally voted against the nice treaty, and yet they still went ahead and became one of the only governments in the EU to impose no restrictions on eastern immigration.

On a positive note it does mean the immigrants are legal and paying tax, unlike other countries who imposed restrictions but are still recieving the immigrants from the accession countries, working on the black market and contributing nothing.

An interesing but long article about Hollands realisation that it's muslim population is growing and not integrating.........
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2099-1488514_1,00.html

oscarBravo

mycroft wrote:

You accuse the other side of this debate of "shrilly debating". But you produce as evidence of your argument, a TV segment that I can't find any evidence existed, never mind any evidence of this protest.

To be fair, I saw the report in question. I would, however, question the suggestion that the word "outsiders" was used in any euphemistic way.

the_syco

bagocans wrote:

An interesing but long article about Hollands realisation that it's muslim population is growing and not integrating.........
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2099-1488514_1,00.html

Interesting link.

bonkey

QualderWahl wrote:

I think this report outlines (i) the fact that we certainly do not have full employment in Ireland,

Even if this report is correct (I'll give you the benefit of the doubt), it indicates no such thing. Full Employment is set at about 4% to include group such as those who choose not to move and not to change job-roles in order to find employment, and who consequently end up unemployed for indeterminable amounts of time.

Its one thing to say "I'm a qualified X", and quite another to say "I'm a qualified X, who will only work within a certain radius of location Y, and only in a job-role which my qualification is relevant for".

These people are complaining that a project in their locale didn't supply their desired employment....not that there isn't a project on the island, or a less-desireable local job where they could find work.

Full Employment takes such factors into account - it expects the existence of such groups. Their existence in no way suggests that Full Employment doesn't exist.

(ii) Irish people are not too lazy to get their hands dirty as several posters have suggested,

I dunno...these guys are saying "I'm qualified for job X, there are people being employed in Job X in my locale....I should have that job". I wonder if there are other jobs in the locale that they aren't interested in....y'know stuff thats too menial for someone with a qualification to get their hands dirty doing.

Even if thats not the case, you could opint at the 96% of employed people in the country and say "look - 96% of people are working, which proves Irish people aren't too lazy....". What you'd be missing is - again - that there are some people who are simply not interested in working, and who will live off the system, and that the 4% also takes them into account.

(iii) "Outsiders" are taking some jobs at the expense of locals.

Outsider as opposed to foreigner, eh? Choice of words should be instructive. When a lot of the work started on apartment blocks in Ringsend, there was a lot of petty vandalism etc. by locals who didn't want outsiders coming into their community. They weren't talking about foreigners - just about their concern that Ringsend would become an annex of D4, and lose its own character.

In the absence of anything more concrete than your recollection of an interview you heard, I think it would be preciptious to do more than idly speculate as to what "otusider" could mean. It would most certainly be overly ambitious to decide arbitrarily that it referred to immigrants.

This belies the increasingly shrill claims of people that anybody who wants a job can secure employment without any undue hassle.

No, it doesn't.

It would belie the notion that anyone who wants a role-specific job in a specific locale can secure employment without any undue hassle....but I don't recall anyone ever suggesting something as far-fetched as that, nor is the concept of Full Employment in any significant way connected to such a Utopian situation.

jc

QualderWahl

Excellent measured post Bonkey. I must hold my hands up and say that it will certainly prompt me to re-evaluate my interpretation of that report.

Quantum

Well my comment would simply be to question what all the fuss is about this television report ?
Even if it happened . . it's a TV report ! does that make it right ? I think not !!

The truth remains transparent and simple. We have essentially full eployment in Ireland today. That doesn't mean each and every skill is completely tapped out - it means that across the board anyone who wants a job can get one.
The remaining people on the registry are mostly home carers, black marketeers, lazees, between jobs, handicapped etc.

daveirl

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KnowItAll

billy the squid wrote:

actually i would not call them generalising. When you take a look at how many of those 110,000 people who have been unemployed for 12 months or more.

There is work out there, and it pays more than the Dole, so why are they on the dole for years. either they are unable to do so due to a disability, or are too bone idle.

Its not an uncommon occourance to see people in the HR office where I work looking for "letters for the dole office to say they came looking for work"

the same people will be the first to complain when they walk into a shop and see a black face behind the counter!

in short, if they havent worked in the last 24 months, they are not likely to work in the next 24 months

You say that because they have not worked in the last 24 months they are unlikely to work in the next 24 months. Your probally correct but how did you get those figures? Either you have a time machine or your generalising the situation.

KnowItAll

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

There must be another Cork on a far distant planet! Either that or your blinkered to reality.

Could you please remind me the results of the citizenship referrendum.

mycroft

KnowItAll wrote:

There must be another Cork on a far distant planet! Either that or your blinkered to reality.

Could you please remind me the results of the citizenship referrendum.

And once again for the hard of thinking he referendum was on "citizenship tourism" not migrant workers.

Lets look at what you said

I'm from Cork too and I can state for a fact that Cork people are not very happy with all these foreigners coming into the country! I think you should open your eyes to the real world.

So again that statement of fact. Whats it based on on. Because it implies that cork people not some cork people, not a minority not a majority just cork people a vague amount, aree with you. Do you see how your statement is kinda vague "knowitall"? do you think someone called "knowitall" could elaborate. Seeing as you "knowitall" could you establish what % of kinsale families are happy/unhappy with migrant workers? Or foreigners?

daveirl

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