Changing down when coming to a halt

BrianD

seamus wrote:

Completely wrong. For the purposes of the test, the tester might not notice you skipping a gear, but if they do, it's usually marked down as improper use of the controls.

Everything about driving revolves around anticipation. You must anticipate when you will need to stop, and adjust your speed accordingly. "Coasting" is driving along with the clutch fully depressed. It's a common habit of learners who aren't all that confident with clutch braking and rely solely on the footbrake to slow down.

If you're finding that you don't have the time to switch down between the gears when approaching a junction, then you're driving too fast or (more likely) leaving it too late to begin slowing down. Slowing down for a junction should be very like an aircraft approaching a landing - I've never been on a aircraft that speed up to the runway, then at the last minute cuts the throttle and drps the flaps to reduce its speed. No, it's a gradual, comfortable, controlled reduction in speed.

I would disagree. Hoody has the technique on the button. Also braking is not the sign of a bad driver as some one else suggested - they only other way to decrease your speed to allow a smooth gear change is by allowing the car slow by taking your foot of the accelerator. By doing this you are giving no warning of slowing to drivers behind you.

I do agree with your comment about anticipation and being ready to stop at a junction. Every junction is different but in urban situations I would gear down and be ready in the event, say, the lights change. I usually go from 4th to 2nd if I'm stopping, apply the handbrake and then put it into neutral. Well most of the time anyway!

BrianD3

Also braking is not the sign of a bad driver as some one else suggested - they only other way to decrease your speed to allow a smooth gear change is by allowing the car slow by taking your foot of the accelerator. By doing this you are giving no warning of slowing to drivers behind you.

Well it's almost impossible to stop a car using downchanging alone so you're always going to have some brake lights coming on. Also, you'll slow down quite gradually with engine braking unless you do something crazy like go from 5th to 2nd at 60 mph. If you blip the throttle between downchanges you'll get little or no engine braking as you'll be speeding up the engine for the lower gear with the throttle instead of the wheels.

Secondly, is it really the job of the driver ahead to warn the eejit behind that he's slowing down, by coasting up to a traffic lights with his brake lights on continuously for 500 yards (an exaggeration, but you get the idea )

jayok

It's all very well talking about advanced driving techniques but I believe the OP is asking the correct technique for passing the standard driving test. It's no good being an advanced driver and stopping in 4th or 5th if the DOE driving examiners are looking for drivers to go down through the gears and stop in 2nd. As I said, the way I was taught (by ISM) for my test was to go down through the gears. The problem with stopping in a high gear is that there's a tendancy to coast more (as you must dip the clutch at a higher speed to avoid stalling/labouring) To counteract this you brake harder so that the car stops almost instantly when you dip the clutch, reducing coasting. I can't see the examiners being too impressed with this braking style and they *definitely* won't be impressed if you coast, in fact you'll fail instantly

This is no excuse for incorrect technique. The reason I quoted the Advanced Driving manual is simply because it explains so clearly how to brake correctly. There is far more to being an advanced driver that just driving like a "standard" driver and brake as described. Advanced driving builds on the standard driving technique as such the above braking technique would be considered standard - not advanced.

Also, are you proposing than an advanced driver who sits the driving test will fail because they were executing the above braking technique? I think not - well I certainly hope not.

The problem with stopping in a high gear is that there's a tendancy to coast more

It's all a matter of having the correct technique. When executed properly this is not the case.

Secondly, is it really the job of the driver ahead to warn the eejit behind that he's slowing down

Nope, specifically, the law states you are responsible for what's in front, not behind (when going forward). However, if somebody rear-ends you, while it's not your fault, it will be a huge inconvienence to you.

Welcome to the world of Defensive Driving. Protecting yourself from said eejits. By braking and activating your brake lights, you are providing information to drivers that you are stopping or stopped. You have done the best you can to protect youself from being rear-ended. Actually even when stopped, car in neutral, hand-brake on, it is recommended keep the brake lights on until a car has actually stopped behind you. Improve visibility - i.e. don't hit me.

BrianD3

jayok wrote:

Also, are you proposing than an advanced driver who sits the driving test will fail because they were executing the above braking technique?

According to my instructor, yes

Correct me if I'm wrong but don't some (not all) "advanced" driving courses tell you that it's OK to cross your hands on the wheel. A technique which will cause you to fail your standard test.

It's all a matter of having the correct technique. When executed properly this is not the case.

Please explain how it is possible to come to a stop from a high gear without
a)coasting
or
b)sharp braking

jayok

Correct me if I'm wrong but don't some (not all) "advanced" driving courses tell you that it's OK to cross your hands on the wheel. A technique which will cause you to fail your standard test.

Specifically there are two ways to handle the steeting wheel, the cross-over technique and the push-pull technique. For high-speed driving where the turning ratio of the steering wheel to the angle of the front wheels is small (i.e. Formula 1, rally type) the cross-over technique is better. However, in regular road cars the push-pull technique offers smoother control and better handling. This is the only method taught by the advance driving course. So, no, it is not ok to cross your hands during the advanced driving or standard exam.

To stop the car in a high-gear, say 5th, follow the procedure above. From what I see most pople are afraid that they will stall the car when braking, while possible, if timed correctly this will not occur. Coasting does occur in 5th (or 6th) to the greatest degree, but from 3rd it should be no different than first. As stated above stopping in 5th a small bit of coasting is tolerated - it has to be. If we are being really pedantic about it you must coast as some stage even when is second - the car is never at a fully stop before you disengage the clutch.

With regard to sharp braking, all modern cars have a hydraulic cushion to prevent the need to hammer the brakes and smothen out the application of the brakes. The disengaging of the engine from the wheels while braking should not cause a sharp increase in deceleration.

Ernie Ball

jayok wrote:

This is the only method taught by the advance driving course.

What advanced driving course?

jayok

What advanced driving course?

Institute of Advanced Motorists (www.iam.org)

Ernie Ball

jayok wrote:

Institute of Advanced Motorists (www.iam.org)

They have an Irish branch: http://www.irishadvancedmotorists.ie/

jayok

They have an Irish branch: http://www.irishadvancedmotorists.ie/

Yep, and it's the same test as the one that they do in the UK. If you are serious about driving, I would strongly recommended you become a member. The techniques you learn really do make you a better driver.

BTW I mean "you" in the plural sense not just for Ernie Ball

vector

reading your replies it seems that changing down is the best way, for so many reasons but I tried is last night on an empty road, driving up to 50kmph and pretending to stop for a traffic light, I can't get it.. nice idea and I'd save a fortune on brake pads but I'll put it off for the future.

So for the actual test I'll just depress the clutch almost* fully and go thouth the motions fo changing down 4>3>2 (and when at 0 into first) but actually be using the brakes to stop.


*almost, not completely so that the engine will sound like its somewhat driving the wheels and not just idling

jayok

vector wrote:

reading your replies it seems that changing down is the best way, for so many reasons but I tried is last night on an empty road, driving up to 50kmph and pretending to stop for a traffic light, I can't get it.. nice idea and I'd save a fortune on brake pads but I'll put it off for the future.

Working the gears is still not correct. And as for saving brake pads? It's cheaper to replace brake pads than the transmission system (clutch, etc).

So for the actual test I'll just depress the clutch almost* fully and go thouth the motions fo changing down 4>3>2 (and when at 0 into first) but actually be using the brakes to stop

Then you will definately get done for coasting! Surely your driving instructor can take you through stopping from 50km/hr to a dead stop?

Squirrel

@jayok

From reading your earlier post from Page 24 of the Advanced Driving Instructors Manual I can see where your coming from, but that says that braking and changing gears should be avoided, and so is coasting, therefore would it not be more sensible to change down gears down to 2nd or so before you start braking, that way you don't brake and change gear at the same time, or coast

Philbert

Eh..Ok!

If I know I am going to have to stop, whether it be coming up to a junction or traffic lights or whatever it may be, I simply put the car into neutral and the only thing i have to worry about is stopping the car.

If I need to move again between the point at which I realise I will have to stop and the stopping point (ie the lights go green), I put the car from neutral into whatever gear is appropriate to the speed of the car at the time.

This is somthing I have always done. Is this wrong? Why?

vector

don't actually go into neutral when your'e moving, I mean its one thing to drive like me and press the clutch and coast, but to actually select neutral on purpose when you're moving... no

jayok

Squirrel wrote:

that says that braking and changing gears should be avoided, and so is coasting, therefore would it not be more sensible to change down gears down to 2nd or so before you start braking, that way you don't brake and change gear at the same time, or coast

The problem here is say you are in 4th doing 60kph. Dropping the car to 2nd first will cause excessive revving of the engine and won't result in a smooth ride.

There is actually a clear split between acceletating and decelerating when it comes to the gears. If you are driving along and and approach a red-light you begin braking with the car in 4th. Say while braking the car's speed drops to 15 kph and the lights turn green. You now want to accelerate again. At this point you release the brakes (letting drivers behind you know you're not stopping), disengage the clutch, put the car into 2nd, re-engage the clutch and accelerate normally. You do not go through 3rd.

This is somthing I have always done. Is this wrong? Why

This is coasting and is technically wrong. But I hear you ask why? I am simply just taking pressure off the brakes by disengaging the engine? Yes, but it's also to do with ensuring that the engine keeps turning over when the car is moving. So much depends on a running engine in a car (assisted brakes, power steering, etc) that you will want to ensure that if there is anything mechanically wrong with the engine that these system are running while you are moving. I don't know if you've ever driven a car with power steering that has cut-out mid turn on you, (if coasting) but the steering goes very heavy. This is just and example, you no longer have consistent control of the car and the reason you should not coast.

Philbert

vector wrote:

don't actually go into neutral when your'e moving, I mean its one thing to drive like me and press the clutch and coast, but to actually select neutral on purpose when you're moving... no

I gathered that from the thread!!

But im confused, why is this such a bad thing? I mean it allows me to not have to worry about gears and just concentrate on stopping the car. In the event that I have to move off, I just select the best gear for the speed im doing.

Im getting a bit worried now cause this is something ive been automatically doing for years!

fletch

Philbert wrote:

I gathered that from the thread!!

But im confused, why is this such a bad thing? I mean it allows me to not have to worry about gears and just concentrate on stopping the car. In the event that I have to move off, I just select the best gear for the speed im doing.

But if you need to make an evasive manouvre that requires power going to the wheels, the few seconds it takes you to put the car in gear and lift off the clutch could be crucial. You are not fully in control of the car when you are in neutral

bbability

From an Advanced Driver's point of view (moi), there is driving the car and there passing the Driving Test. This might help you if your having trouble remembering what gears to be in....

Start in 1st
Turn in 2nd
Stop in 3rd
Drive in 4th

No matter what anyone says "this is the way" or "that's the way you should..." , most of the recognised driving schools in the country will say that its good practice to show the use of your mirrors, changing up and down through the gears etc etc. There nothing wrong in stopping your car in 2nd but for the record you should not go straight from 4th to 2nd for test purposes as another user has pointed out. Its good practice to gradually slow your car down using the gears and brakes. Lets take approaching a Stop Junction as an example. Your around 150m from the juction and the tester tells you your turning right at the junction. Check you mirror, signal and change down into 3rd. You should not need to change down into 2nd as this will show your approaching the junction too slow (lack of progression). Allow the car to slow itself down and gradually as you reach the junction apply the brake. You will bring the car to a stop. Apply the handbrake and put the car into 1st gear. As soon as your clear, proceed with your turn and low and behold you've succesfully and correctfully stopped the car and turned at the juction.

Philbert

jayok wrote:

This is coasting and is technically wrong. But I hear you ask why? I am simply just taking pressure off the brakes by disengaging the engine? Yes, but it's also to do with ensuring that the engine keeps turning over when the car is moving. So much depends on a running engine in a car (assisted brakes, power steering, etc) that you will want to ensure that if there is anything mechanically wrong with the engine that these system are running while you are moving. I don't know if you've ever driven a car with power steering that has cut-out mid turn on you, (if coasting) but the steering goes very heavy. This is just and example, you no longer have consistent control of the car and the reason you should not coast.

Understood. I had no idea certain elements of the car relied on the engine been engaged. I will try to break this habit as of tomorrow.

unknownguest

Just saw this thread now. Don't fancy reading the whole thing. If facts have been established please let me know:)

jayok

There nothing wrong in stopping your car in 2nd but for the record you should not go straight from 4th to 2nd for test purposes as another user has pointed out

So would you recommend that in the situation I described above (approaching traffic lights and braking) that the one goes: 4th, disengaged clutch, 3rd, engage clutch, disengage clutch, 2nd, engage clutch?

If so, why bother with 3rd? You are adding wear to the transmission system and placing greater time pressure on completing those moves while trying to stop.

Squirrel

jayok wrote:

The problem here is say you are in 4th doing 60kph. Dropping the car to 2nd first will cause excessive revving of the engine and won't result in a smooth ride.

What I mean is anticipate the braking, that way you can let the revs drop naturally, and then change down through the gears when nessecary, because, as I said earlier, you are in more control of the engine speed therefore in more control of the car

jayok

anticipate braking

Ok, I think understand the question now.

Two angles on this one.

1. Progressive driving - if you trundle upto a stop junction or traffic lights from say 100m you're not moving the car in a clear and decisive manner.

2. Providing information to other drivers. While dropping the speed of the car using the gears you are not communicating (via brake lights) to other drivers that you are stopping. Again this is defensive driving. You want to communicate to drives what you are up to.

Squirrel

That made alot of sense jayok, but I'm only saying what caused my sister to fail her test, and the examiner the second time remarked on how well she slowed the car using that method, and I'm also saying my experience, although at 16, I "don't" drive

dwaned

1. Mirror
2. Break
3. 3rd gear
4. Break to stop
5. Handbrake on.
6. Neutral

jayok

Squirrel wrote:

That made alot of sense jayok, but I'm only saying what caused my sister to fail her test, and the examiner the second time remarked on how well she slowed the car using that method, and I'm also saying my experience, although at 16, I "don't" drive

Of course in all the braking talk, technique, it all goes back to anticipation. Reading the road ahead, determine the correct approach for the car, and getting yourself and the car ready. It all depends on the situation that your sister was in while slowing down.

The greatest difficultly here is that there is no publically published standard for the driving system in Ireland. All conversations are simply based on what we "think" the instructor will want. We can only hope that they understand the correct techniques.

You "don't drive" yet, but you will soon!

Squirrel

jayok wrote:

The greatest difficultly here is that there is no publically published standard for the driving system in Ireland. All conversations are simply based on what we "think" the instructor will want. We can only hope that they understand the correct techniques.

I think you pretty much summed up the whole thread there

BrianD3

jayok wrote:

Specifically there are two ways to handle the steeting wheel, the cross-over technique and the push-pull technique. For high-speed driving where the turning ratio of the steering wheel to the angle of the front wheels is small (i.e. Formula 1, rally type) the cross-over technique is better. However, in regular road cars the push-pull technique offers smoother control and better handling. This is the only method taught by the advance driving course. So, no, it is not ok to cross your hands during the advanced driving or standard exam.

Fair enough. I thought I read that it was OK to cross the hands on certain advanced courses. I was probably thinking of performance driving courses or something. I am aware that IAM advocates the push pull method. I believe this is also used by the British police drivers with their "roadcraft" training.

To stop the car in a high-gear, say 5th, follow the procedure above. From what I see most pople are afraid that they will stall the car when braking, while possible, if timed correctly this will not occur. Coasting does occur in 5th (or 6th) to the greatest degree, but from 3rd it should be no different than first. As stated above stopping in 5th a small bit of coasting is tolerated - it has to be. If we are being really pedantic about it you must coast as some stage even when is second - the car is never at a fully stop before you disengage the clutch.

Disagree. Coasting should be kept to a miniumum. If you're going at 50 mph in 5th in your test and stop at a traffic lights in fifth instead of changing down a few gears then I bet the examiner will have a problem with that. First of all as stated earlier, coasting is a no-no. Secondly, it could show lack of anticipation and awareness. It could give the impression that you're in a dreamworld and are only noticing the red lights ahead at the last minute. If you change down smoothly while gradually slowing down (not too gradual to show you're making progress) you are showing that you have noticed the red lights up ahead and are in control of the vehicle.

With regard to sharp braking, all modern cars have a hydraulic cushion to prevent the need to hammer the brakes and smothen out the application of the brakes. The disengaging of the engine from the wheels while braking should not cause a sharp increase in deceleration.

Not sure what you're on about here. I presume you mean the brake servo? The brake servo reduces the braking effort needed on the pedal. It does not make the car stop any smoother if you brake hard! The examiner will still spill his coffee on hard braking, brake servo or no brake servo.

hoody

BrianD wrote:

I would disagree. Hoody has the technique on the button. Also braking is not the sign of a bad driver as some one else suggested - they only other way to decrease your speed to allow a smooth gear change is by allowing the car slow by taking your foot of the accelerator. By doing this you are giving no warning of slowing to drivers behind you.

Thanks man - cleared things up a bit before the next lesson

vector

>The examiner will still spill his coffee on hard braking, brake servo or no brake servo

the spilling coffee reminded me of another question, the "emergency stop"
does that really mean "emergency" like maximum foot to the floor on brake within 1 second? I don't want yer man going through the windscreen.