Should the IRA or republicans return to violence?

cdebru

Lemming wrote:

It wasn't a "heroic" struggle at all. It was self interest on the part of Britan & France that led to a declaration of war. Only at the war's end did some of the horrors of the Hitler regime come out which justified the stand in a more "good vs. evil" light.

But on that note, yes the allies have done some very unsavoury things during WW2 and have questions to answer and apologies to make. Dresden and Nagasaki most certainly. But to compare WW2 & the North is utterly, utterly absurd cdebru and akin to comparing apples with oranges. You know that as well as anyone else.



See my point about comparing apples with oranges and the absurdity of what you've just written.




I'm not even going to bother replying to that above statement. That is just incredulous and quite quite callous cdebru. Worthy of the best litter-bin bomb in Warrington or bombing Harrods toy store in London at Christmas.



No, that's not what I'm saying, and once more that remark of yours is quite facicuous cdebru. IF the IRA were wanting to hurt the UK economy, then why weren't they targetting successful businesses wherever they were. Why only the targetting of protestant businesses? By the way I might add that you have failed to provide one catholic business targetted under the dubious notion of "fighting the good fight". I believe the termy "hypocrasy" is in order.

Once more cdebru, a rose by any other name is still a rose.



Once again, I say that you sir are being facicous and a hypocrate into the bargain.

well I acccept that britain and france only entered the war out of self interest

however I believe that the people who fought and defeated fascism were heroic


what exactly are you saying

that the IRA should have targetted catholic businesses
the IRA targeted business in general not just in the North but in the UK
the deliberate targetting of a business or anyone by the IRA because they catholic would be a sectarian act and just as despicable as the targetting of a protestant Bussiness
You seem to have the idea that the IRA should have been keeping a tally sheet of how many protestant businesses it had attacked and targeted some catholic ones to balance the books

you dont even have an arguement so you are reduced to mentioning warrington and harrods in an attempt to throw some muck because they have no relevance to what i said or what you said other than they allow you the oppurtunity to tut tut

It is you that is the hypocrite you have a completely one sided view of the conflict through your rose tinted glasses the IRA were completely at fault they caused everything I suggest you open your mind a bit more

I have no illusions about the PIRA I know that they did somethings that could never be justified in any conflict I know that they had and have some very unsavoury characters in their ranks
I also know that the PIRA in general did not engage in sectarian warfare although it would have been much easier to do so

cdebru

Earthman wrote:

my point was that the loyalists wouldnt have been retaliating if the IRA werent bombing ergo lives would have been saved.?

history including recent history suggests that you are wrong loyalists were attacking and killing catholics long before the PIRA campaign started and since it stopped


Wednesday 2 January 2002
A Loyalist gang attacked and seriously injured a Catholic man (43) in Newington Street, north Belfast, at 4.30am (0430GMT). The Loyalists from the Tiger's Bay area had entered the Catholic Limestone Road and tried to break into a block of flats before attacking a car parked on the street. The Catholic owner of the car was stabbed and beaten when he went to investigate the disturbance. [Nationalists in the area blamed Loyalist paramilitaries for the attack. A Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI) patrol had withdrawn from the area shortly before the attack. Despite numerous attacks on Catholics in the area the police rejected calls for a permanent security presence.] Government cab


Thursday 3 January 2002
Loyalist Paramilitary Killed
William Campbell (19), a member of the Ulster Defence Association (UDA), was killed when a pipe-bomb exploded close to a derelict house in Winston Way in the Heights area of Coleraine, County Derry, at approximately 11.30pm (2330GMT). [Police were investigating the theory that the derelict house may have been used by Loyalist paramilitaries as a store for explosives. It was believed that Campbell was handling the device when it exploded prematurely. There was speculation that the pipe-bomb may have been fitted with a timing device. There have been numerous pipe-bomb attacks on Catholic homes in Coleraine since 11 September 2000. Nationalists claimed that there had been over 100 attacks on Catholic families in the previous two years.] Loyalist paramilitaries carried out a pipe-bomb attack on a Catholic family in north Belfast at approximately 9.30pm (2130GMT). A mother and her four children escaped injury when a "substantial explosive device" filled with shrapnel was thrown through the window of the living room. The explosion caused extensive damage to the house. The family were upstairs at the time of the attack. [Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI) said the attack may have been sectarian. Nationalists claimed the attack had been carried out by the UDA. The family said they would move from there home.] A pipe-bomb was defused outside the house of a PSNI officer in Annalong, County Down. The house had also been attacked on 27 April 2001. A man (39) was shot in the leg in a paramilitary 'punishment' attack in Newtownards, County Down. He was found lying in a laneway in the Scrabo estate. Police discovered 500 empty bottles in the Loyalist Tiger's Bay area of north Belfast. Police officers said they believe the bottles would have been used to make petrol bombs. [There have been numerous attacks since the middle of 2001 from Tiger's Bay into the mainly Catholic Limestone Road area.] Loyalists attacked the home of Danny O’Connor, then a Social Democratic and Labour Party (SDLP) councillor, in Larne, County Antrim. O'Connor's car, and that of his father, were also damaged in the attack. [O'Connor's home has been attacked by Loyalists approximately 20 times in the past four years.]




http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/othelem/chron/ch02.htm

this is just the first 2 days on the page what exactly were the loyalist retaliating to here

Earthman wrote:

Was she a catholic?

yes
http://62.253.251.16/dailyireland/home.tvt?_ticket=Y331N03V5GSGX237CAMAAQ6MDKLAFS6DJQRFL1PAASTJCMLAEJSMTRRITI5N9NTHNMLEGGSGX2L24NNAD0SEARP9CHYPTRRIT5&_scope=DailyIreland/Content/News&id=4158&_page=&opp=1

Lemming

cdebru wrote:

however I believe that the people who fought and defeated fascism were heroic

That would depend on the means used to fight and defeat fascism. With regards WW2 do I think the Allied soldiers deserve kudos, most definitely. They went up against what was the most technologically advanced and militarily experienced army in the world at the time and endured some horrific actions to overpower the Germans. Brave men.

Do I, however, think that trying to blow up a shop is "heroic" and fighting fascism? No. Far from it. In fact the only facists would seem to be the paramilitaries.

that the IRA should have targetted catholic businesses

No. The IRA should nevre have targetted any business.

the IRA targeted business in general not just in the North but in the UK

In N.Ireland, you will forgive me for being cynical of what you've just said, about every business that was hit was protestant owned or run. On the mainland UK there may be a case in point to the motivation being economic or publicity related. Which still does not excuse what were some of the most sickening bombings of the troubles.

the deliberate targetting of a business or anyone by the IRA because they catholic would be a sectarian act and just as despicable as the targetting of a protestant Bussiness

So why, once again I ask, when you look at the various bombings throughout N.Ireland, were the businesses almost all protestant owned/run/frequented? That's just a little bit coincidental no?

You seem to have the idea that the IRA should have been keeping a tally sheet of how many protestant businesses it had attacked and targeted some catholic ones to balance the books

No. That's absurd. However no less absurd than suggesting that the IRA were fighting a "noble" fight in a legitimate manner. They're as sectarian as the next lot of paramilitaries in the North. Lets be clear on this. They are ALL scum. Every. Last. One. Of. Them. I don't differentiate between religions or creeds. Each and every one of those ... animals ... are sick, twisted f*cks.

you dont even have an arguement so you are reduced to mentioning warrington and harrods in an attempt to throw some muck because they have no relevance to what i said or what you said other than they allow you the oppurtunity to tut tut

Quite the opposite actually. I mentioned those because your attitude was one worthy of those I'm sure used to justify those bombings whilst planning and planting their bombs. As cynical and hardened and propoganda-brainwashed.

It is you that is the hypocrite you have a completely one sided view of the conflict through your rose tinted glasses the IRA were completely at fault they caused everything I suggest you open your mind a bit more

Rose-tinted glasses? Rest assured I do not consider things rosey ..... and as I've alreay mentioned I do not lay sole blame on the IRA. What started as a symptom of a cause turned into the cause of the symptom. I consider each and every member of every paramilitary organisation (ex or active) equally worthless, pathetic, servile scum. Nationalist or Loyalist, they are all beneath contempt.

Why am I giving the IRA such a hard time in particular?
a) They're in government and trying to broker power
b) This discussion is about the IRA and I will not engage in "but what about them" which has been used all to often to apologise for countless attrocities

I have no illusions about the PIRA I know that they did somethings that could never be justified in any conflict I know that they had and have some very unsavoury characters in their ranks
I also know that the PIRA in general did not engage in sectarian warfare although it would have been much easier to do so

But this is the point I keep making. Your words, vs. fact that they did engage in sectarian warfare, frequently so. Which carries more weight cdebru?

loyalists were attacking and killing catholics long before the PIRA campaign started

That wasnt the point I was making at all.I was referring to tit for tat and how it could have been stopped years earlier by the IRA, it was unnecessarally being nurtured.


Actually cdebru, the recent memory I was thinking about was...

1993

Thursday 21 October 1993
10 people - 9 Protestant civilians and 1 member of the Irish Republican Army (IRA) - were killed in a premature explosion at a fish shop on the Shankill Road in Belfast. The attack was carried out by the IRA.

Saturday 30 October 1993
7 civilians - 6 Catholic and 1 Protestant - were killed in a gun attack at the Rising Sun bar in Greysteel, County Derry. The attack was carried out by the Ulster Freedom Fighters (UFF).

Now do you think those guys would have walked into that catholic bar were it not for the fish shop incident 9 days earlier?? I doubt it.

Thats an example of the tit for tat that could have been avoided.

Was she a catholic?

yes

I remember seeing the DUP with Lisa Dorrians family around the time of her disappearance, thats why I asked was she Catholic.
Her family is actually English.

cdebru

Lemming wrote:

But this is the point I keep making. Your words, vs. fact that they did engage in sectarian warfare, frequently. Which carries more weight cdebru?

well the evidence does not support that the figures that i linked and put in a post clearly dont show that

yes there was a sectarian element to the IRAs campaign in around 1974 1976
and I have no problem in condemning any sectarian attack no matter who carried it out
but I think it is a major fallacy to try and paint the PIRA campaign as sectarian
I'am not asking you to agree with the campaign or in anyway condone it but surely you can see that wether you agree or disagree with wether they should have been attacking british crown forces that they are not sectarian attacks and they account for the vast majority of deliberate kills


Also since it is your contention that the IRAs commercial campaign was sectarian in nature could you provide some evidence that the IRA only attacked Protestant Bussinesses or deliberately targeted them because they were protestant owned

cdebru

Earthman wrote:

That wasnt the point I was making at all.I was referring to tit for tat and how it could have been stopped years earlier by the IRA, it was unnecessarally being nurtured.


Actually cdebru, the recent memory I was thinking about was...


Now do you think those guys would have walked into that catholic bar were it not for the fish shop incident 9 days earlier?? I doubt it.

Thats an example of the tit for tat that could have been avoided.

I remember seeing the DUP with Lisa Dorrians family around the time of her disappearance, thats why I asked was she Catholic.
Her family is actually English.

But Earthman if you are right why have the loyalist paramilitaries continued attacking and killing catholics over the last number of years
it is not in retaliation

would those incidents in the bars have happened on those particular days probably not
would the loyalist have killed catholics anyway yes


She was born in England yes but to them a Catholic is a Catholic

what i find interesting is that the different way the PSNI have treated this they are still refusing to say it ws the LVF
even the local DUP mp is refusing to say it wsa the LVF even though the dogs in the street know who did this

ishmael whale

cdebru wrote:

I recognise that there is a sizeable proportion of the population of Ireland that would prefer to maintain the link with the UK

Fine, but I don't understand how that sits with saying the conflict was/is about British occupation. DUP/OUP voters would hardly describe themselves as being 'occupied' by the legitimate forces of the state they subscribe to. On the other hand, they might describe themselves as having been beseiged by nationalists.

For my part, I wouldn't regard either 'British occupation' or 'Nationalist siege' as really describing what the conflict was about. I might describe these terms as illustrating the mindset of some of the participants.

cdebru

cdebru wrote:

But Earthman if you are right why have the loyalist paramilitaries continued attacking and killing catholics over the last number of years
it is not in retaliation

Now you appear to be getting subjective.
Would the greysteel incident have happened if the IRA ceasefire had been declared in say 1992? answer most very likely it would not,just like theres been no greysteel recently and you accept that-ergo lots of lives would have been saved.

would the loyalist have killed catholics anyway yes

maybe, but then I would further suggest that, that would be a matter for the law to deal with.

She was born in England yes but to them a Catholic is a Catholic

Well have we anything to go on here to suggest this yet? if and when we do, then its a matter for the law.
I'm not arguing here that scummy murders should be ignored,I'm pointing out the obvious, that there would have been bugger all if no tit for tat if the IRA were inactive.

what i find interesting is that the different way the PSNI have treated this they are still refusing to say it ws the LVF
even the local DUP mp is refusing to say it wsa the LVF even though the dogs in the street know who did this

But unlike the McCartney episode there werent 70 odd people in the vicinity of wherever this poor girl went missing, we dont even know what happened to her do we? or where the body is.Theres absolutely nothing in the line of what was there in the short strand.There were no personalities that were known and seen to be fighting with the girl prior to her disappearance afaik.
I know the article you linked to had David Irvine saying it must be the LVF, but you can be guaranteed, that the media exposure would increase, if you had a well stabbed body and lots of blood.
Trying to compare the two when theres no body or witnesses or people caught trying to cover up stuff etc is moot.
The investigation is ongoing and active and current anyway.
Sometimes police don't succeed for several reasons,the Gardaí havent found anyone yet for Jo Jo Dollard,philip cairns or a body etc etc iirc
It doesnt mean they dont put effort into a case.

cdebru

Earthman wrote:

Now you appear to be getting subjective.
Would the greysteel incident have happened if the IRA ceasefire had been declared in say 1992? answer most very likely it would not,just like theres been no greysteel recently and you accept that-ergo lots of lives would have been saved.




maybe, but then I would further suggest that, that would be a matter for the law to deal with.

Well have we anything to go on here to suggest this yet? if and when we do, then its a matter for the law.
I'm not arguing here that scummy murders should be ignored,I'm pointing out the obvious, that there would have been bugger all if no tit for tat if the IRA were inactive.

But unlike the McCartney episode there werent 70 odd people in the vicinity of wherever this poor girl went missing, we dont even know what happened to her do we? or where the body is.Theres absolutely nothing in the line of what was there in the short strand.There were no personalities that were known and seen to be fighting with the girl prior to her disappearance afaik.
I know the article you linked to had David Irvine saying it must be the LVF, but you can be guaranteed, that the media exposure would increase, if you had a well stabbed body and lots of blood.
Trying to compare the two when theres no body or witnesses or people caught trying to cover up stuff etc is moot.
The investigation is ongoing and active and current anyway.
Sometimes police don't succeed for several reasons,the Gardaí havent found anyone yet for Jo Jo Dollard,philip cairns or a body etc etc iirc
It doesnt mean they dont put effort into a case.

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/chron/index.html

have a look through the years particularly since the IRA ceasefire tell me who have the loyalist been reataliating to


now in relation to the murder of lisa dorrian are you seriously suggesting that it is a coincidence that they murdered a catholic

and go back do a search on the daily Ireland website there are loads of witnesses she was removed from a party by known LVF members
there has been witness intimidation and very little media coverage

http://62.253.251.16/dailyireland/search.tvt?keywords=lisa+dorrian&_ticket=KZ7DALOLO9M2TRRIVWO9ANWPOIA9CHVTWRRKITPBAQVFCLKACK3AC4QFIR0BARXDALOL64EFURUSHONGEMTEGUKACK3AJFE8Z2&_scope=DailyIreland%2FContent&Field_P=Show



Now comparing to the gardai to the PSNI does a grave disservice to the gardai for all of their problems

cdebru

ishmael whale wrote:

Fine, but I don't understand how that sits with saying the conflict was/is about British occupation. DUP/OUP voters would hardly describe themselves as being 'occupied' by the legitimate forces of the state they subscribe to. On the other hand, they might describe themselves as having been beseiged by nationalists.

For my part, I wouldn't regard either 'British occupation' or 'Nationalist siege' as really describing what the conflict was about. I might describe these terms as illustrating the mindset of some of the participants.

I dont think there is anything unusual about an occupied country particularly one that has been occupied for a very long time having a section of the community that identifies itself with the occupier

look at the recently liberated baltic states with their large russian population the russian community would be happy to remain part of Russia does that mean that the baltic states should remain occupied or be partitioned to accomodate the wishes of the Russian minority NO

but that was what was forced upon us here

ishmael whale

cdebru wrote:

I dont think there is anything unusual about an occupied country particularly one that has been occupied for a very long time having a section of the community that identifies itself with the occupier

I think we have to careful or we'll end up talking about Cromwell. But can you at least acknowledge that the description of the current/recent conflict as all about British occupation is only a perspective of one strand of nationalist opinion. It is not an objective description of the situation, and it cannot accomodate the mainstream perspective of the unionist community.

By this I mean your description of them as 'a section of the community that identifies itself with the occupier' is not how they would describe themselves. (And I'd have to agree with them on that one.) They regard themselves as being part of the same nation that you describe as 'occupiers'.

An objective description of the situation is simply a conflict between two communities with different traditions. Both the UK and Irish Republic are integrally linked to the conflict. But concepts like occupation or siege are mindsets of some of the protagonists, not descriptions of the position they find themselves in.

cdebru

ishmael whale wrote:

I think we have to careful or we'll end up talking about Cromwell. But can you at least acknowledge that the description of the current/recent conflict as all about British occupation is only a perspective of one strand of nationalist opinion. It is not an objective description of the situation, and it cannot accomodate the mainstream perspective of the unionist community.

By this I mean your description of them as 'a section of the community that identifies itself with the occupier' is not how they would describe themselves. (And I'd have to agree with them on that one.) They regard themselves as being part of the same nation that you describe as 'occupiers'.

An objective description of the situation is simply a conflict between two communities with different traditions. Both the UK and Irish Republic are integrally linked to the conflict. But concepts like occupation or siege are mindsets of some of the protagonists, not descriptions of the position they find themselves in.

I am already amazed at how off topic we have got

Iam sure the russian population of the baltic state consider/ed themselves to be part of the Russian nation

that does not deter from the fact that that was the occuppying force albeit under the name of the UUSR


if you follow my analogy if Russia had forcibly partitioned one or all of the baltic states and and continued their presence in a part of estonia which had a russian majority would they have ceased to be an occupier even though a majority of people in the area in which they remained wanted them


No

bonkey

cdebru wrote:

if you follow my analogy if Russia had forcibly partitioned one or all of the baltic states and and continued their presence in a part of estonia which had a russian majority would they have ceased to be an occupier even though a majority of people in the area in which they remained wanted them

No

No timelimits on that?

Kinda makes every nation occupied one way or another, doesn't it?

cdebru

bonkey wrote:

No timelimits on that?

Kinda makes every nation occupied one way or another, doesn't it?

well if there was a time limit and I dont know how it could exist it certainly has not run out in Ireland and that is 800 years and counting

cdebru

cdebru wrote:

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/chron/index.html

have a look through the years particularly since the IRA ceasefire tell me who have the loyalist been reataliating to

Frankly thats irrelevant to my point that lives would have been saved if the IRA stopped in 1992.

now in relation to the murder of lisa dorrian are you seriously suggesting that it is a coincidence that they murdered a catholic

I'm not suggesting anything of the sort, but I am getting the feeling that you are being subjective here.
Principally because you are talking about people who are not on ceasefire and who are basically working to a smalltime agenda whereas I was talking about a big time mass murdering agenda and the needless tit for tat deaths arising out of it.

and go back do a search on the daily Ireland website there are loads of witnesses she was removed from a party by known LVF members
there has been witness intimidation and very little media coverage

http://62.253.251.16/dailyireland/search.tvt?keywords=lisa+dorrian&_ticket=KZ7DALOLO9M2TRRIVWO9ANWPOIA9CHVTWRRKITPBAQVFCLKACK3AC4QFIR0BARXDALOL64EFURUSHONGEMTEGUKACK3AJFE8Z2&_scope=DailyIreland%2FContent&Field_P=Show

Again,I think you'll have to ammend your expectations if you think that a dissapearance is going to get the same coverage as a knifed up body.
Murders get a lot of coverage once they are there, disappearances get onto crimeline with a photo and a family campaign etc but they don't usually get the high profile of a frenzied knife murder.
I'd further suggest that it is still possible given the BBC link I gave you that this girls family may raise the profile of the case in the coming weeks.
The fact that they havent so far( and by the way it has got a lot of coverage on newsline and on UTV, I saw that myself )doesnt mean that there isnt work going on in the background to solve it, and it is in fact disingenous to suggest otherwise.

Now comparing to the gardai to the PSNI does a grave disservice to the gardai for all of their problems

I thought the Gardaí and the PSNI got on quite well.
That said, in actual fact my point was about the difficulty in dealing with the disappeared.

cdebru

Earthman wrote:

Frankly thats irrelevant to my point that lives would have been saved if the IRA stopped in 1992.


I'm not suggesting anything of the sort, but I am getting the feeling that you are being subjective here.
Principally because you are talking about people who are not on ceasefire and who are basically working to a smalltime agenda whereas I was talking about a big time mass murdering agenda and the needless tit for tat deaths arising out of it.

Again,I think you'll have to ammend your expectations if you think that a dissapearance is going to get the same coverage as a knifed up body.
Murders get a lot of coverage once they are there, disappearances get onto crimeline with a photo and a family campaign etc but they don't usually get the high profile of a frenzied knife murder.
I'd further suggest that it is still possible given the BBC link I gave you that this girls family may raise the profile of the case in the coming weeks.
The fact that they havent so far( and by the way it has got a lot of coverage on newsline and on UTV, I saw that myself )doesnt mean that there isnt work going on in the background to solve it, and it is in fact disingenous to suggest otherwise.

I thought the Gardaí and the PSNI got on quite well.
That said, in actual fact my point was about the difficulty in dealing with the disappeared.

frankly lives would have been saved whenever the IRA stopped for a certain ammount of time anyway

the fact that loyalists are still murdering innocent catholics i feel shoots a big hole in the arguement that loyalist were reactionary

loyalists were used by the british to put pressure on the IRA undoubtedly attack the community that the IRA come from and they will put pressure on the IRA to stop.
I still think that you are trying to blame the IRA for basically everything including the loyalists sectarian attacks

to follow your logic the mistake the killers of robert mccartney made was leaving his body behind if they had taken it and buried it a bog somewhere there would not have been a big fuss
if that is what you are saying does that not say something about the police and media
Surely the logic of that remark would be to encourage people to disapear someone

I notice that you ignored the fact that of the intimidation of witnesses and the refusal of the PSNI to say it was the LVF

the LVF are alledgedly on ceasefire although the british government specified that they did not recognise the ceasefire as intact in 2001

cdebru

cdebru wrote:

frankly lives would have been saved whenever the IRA stopped

of course

for a certain ammount of time anyway

eh??

the fact that loyalists are still murdering innocent catholics i feel shoots a big hole in the arguement that loyalist were reactionary

Well we can't excuse pathological acts , we can only jail the perpetrators.
You've said nothing here this past page or two to debunk the fact that tit for tat mass murder could have been avoided by an earlier IRA cessasion.
In fact I'll safely posit that, their campaign could have stopped( using the reasoning for its start being the protection of nationalists) a lot earlier than the example I gave resulting in a lot more innocent lives being saved.

loyalists were used by the british to put pressure on the IRA undoubtedly attack the community that the IRA come from and they will put pressure on the IRA to stop.

Whats that got to do with the avoidance of tit for tat murders?

I still think that you are trying to blame the IRA for basically everything including the loyalists sectarian attacks

Seriously I'm not but you are going off on a tangent, these past couple of posts talking about something completely different to what I was talking about.
If you are tackling me for points raised by other posters, then I respectively suggest that you go back to them with your issues.

to follow your logic the mistake the killers of robert mccartney made was leaving his body behind if they had taken it and buried it a bog somewhere there would not have been a big fuss

What on earth are you on about? There are umpteen people that go missing every year, many of whom could be dead or murdered, we don't know, all of whom have families and they dont get the coverage that you are saying they deserve.Thats an entirely different issue.

if that is what you are saying does that not say something about the police and media

It says the police have a hard job investigating difficult crimes yeah.
What it says about the media, is something I'd have thought was common knowledge, they print stuff that sells papers.
Thats as much a comment on the people(in general aswell) that buy them as anything else.

Surely the logic of that remark would be to encourage people to disapear someone

Well I wouldnt be encouraging that, but yeah If they have the ability or inclination, I s'pose hiding the body would probably prolong their avoidance of arrest (bit obvious that)

I notice that you ignored the fact that of the intimidation of witnesses and the refusal of the PSNI to say it was the LVF

Have I? Should I have commented on this at all when it bears no relation whatsoever to what I was originally talking about or for that matter the topic of the thread.

the LVF are alledgedly on ceasefire although the british government specified that they did not recognise the ceasefire as intact in 2001

Meaning, they intend to do what they like and thus should get the law enforced on them like any pathological loonies.They've not got the sense to realise that they are doing their loyalist cause any good.
I doubt the Queen they're supposedly loyal to, would approve of their actions, nor the very vast majority of their fellow unionists,ergo they have no escape from the inevitable when caught just like any other criminals.

ishmael whale

cdebru wrote:

well if there was a time limit and I dont know how it could exist it certainly has not run out in Ireland and that is 800 years and counting

That reminds me of a Martyn Turner cartoon that depicts a sad looking Irish stone age man carrying a placard with the message 'Celts go home'.

At this stage we're (mostly) getting used to the idea of net immigration, and the plain fact that every year more people just come here to set up home. As we know, any citizen of an EU country has a right to come here to live and work. I think the time may have come to accept that Ulster unionists have as much right to be on this island as the rest of us.

To be honest, I would have expected all the stuff about 800 years of oppression (it used to be 700 years when I was in school - was it really that long ago?) to be well gone off the agenda. It's more than a little discouraging to see it still out there in people's minds.

When we start to talk about something 800 years ago in a thread about whether republicans should return to violence,I think it's time to close the thread and say move along...
Closed