CC Cards without chip/pin

The Corinthian · 18-05-2005 3:22pm #1

It’s not everyday that I admit that I’m wrong, but I’d have to do so in the case of the chip/PIN credit cards currently being introduced and I’ve come to the conclusion that perhaps there was something to the consumer concerns voiced on them. It’s not that I think them any more or less safe than suing signatures, only that if someone steals my PIN number (not unknown to happen even without any incompetence upon my part) I’m pretty screwed on liability.

So, given my Visa card is about to be renewed with said chip/PIN included, I was wondering if there are any credit card alternatives that I could go for that do not include this feature?

Any suggestions and/or comments welcome.

BuffyBot · 18-05-2005 5:27pm

I honestly don't think there is - AFAIK it's being rolled out on all cards over time!

Skyuser · 18-05-2005 7:24pm

Am I the only one that has had chip and pin since last November?

BuffyBot · 18-05-2005 7:55pm

Skyuser wrote:

Am I the only one that has had chip and pin since last November?

Nope. They've been phasing them in for a while now.

Tom Dunne · 18-05-2005 10:41pm

The Corinthian wrote:

So, given my Visa card is about to be renewed with said chip/PIN included, I was wondering if there are any credit card alternatives that I could go for that do not include this feature?.

Try American Express (the bog standard one). No chip/pin, no credit limit and you have to pay it off at the end of every month, so no massive bills.

And to anyone who thinks it is not as widely accepted as other cards - think again. I can only remember one place that wouldn't accept it in the last four years.

shinobi · 18-05-2005 10:53pm

Chip N Pin is a waste of time at the moment. I was in a queue in lifestyle sports in the Jervis centre some weeks ago and seen the Cashier ask if the costomer knew their pin to which the customer replied no & ended up just signing for the goods anyway. So until retailers enforce requesting a pin the system is useless anyway. Even if your card isn't chipped you still have a pin for ATM purposes so there's still a chance of your pin being guessed/stolen & money taken from your card.

muckwarrior · 18-05-2005 11:20pm

I thought that all new cards being issued now were chip & pin but I got a new one about two months ago and it wasn't. It's a BOI MC. Is it just some banks thats issuing them or whats de story?

BuffyBot · 18-05-2005 11:33pm

Is it just some banks thats issuing them or whats de story?

They are phasing them in on credit cards. All of the banks.

Skyuser · 19-05-2005 1:43am

muckwarrior wrote:

I thought that all new cards being issued now were chip & pin but I got a new one about two months ago and it wasn't. It's a BOI MC. Is it just some banks thats issuing them or whats de story?

Bank of Ireland are soooooo slow issuing chip and pin, mine is an AIB MC and I had my chip and pin for 7 months. Every shop has the machines now in my area, but for the first few months it was only Tesco that I could use it in.

Our man in Havana · 19-05-2005 2:19am

Are laser cards going to be Chip and pin?

Skyuser · 19-05-2005 2:26am

Bond-007 wrote:

Are laser cards going to be Chip and pin?

Yes, but they want to do all the credit cards first. Seeing as the majority of Laser Cards are BOI, it will be a long long time before there sent out :rolleyes:

Guy:Incognito · 19-05-2005 2:27am

I didnt think laser cards were going to be c&p but I got one in work the other day.

Skyuser · 19-05-2005 2:30am

Stekelly wrote:

I didnt think laser cards were going to be c&p but I got one in work the other day.

Didn't you just say in another post that you didn't have a laser card, only a atm card

Guy:Incognito · 19-05-2005 2:33am

Skyuser wrote:

Didn't you just say in another post that you didn't have a laser card, only a atm card

I work in a shop, a customer was paying with a laser card and it was c&p.

Skyuser · 19-05-2005 2:34am

Really, what was the bank.....I bet it wasn't BOI

Guy:Incognito · 19-05-2005 2:35am

tbh I cant remember, mite well have been AIB.

dawballz · 19-05-2005 2:43am

I only got my BOI CC in October last year and it wasn't chip and pin.
Even though BOI were advertising it etc.

parsi · 19-05-2005 9:42am

AIB Lasers are chip & pin - I've had mine for about 2 months. Its also a combo card now - banklink & laser

RainyDay · 19-05-2005 10:15am

tom dunne wrote:

Try American Express (the bog standard one). No chip/pin, no credit limit and you have to pay it off at the end of every month, so no massive bills.

Amex are listed on the C&P site as one of the participants. I got my new Amex Blue card this week and was surprised to see it wasn't C&P. I rank Amex and they told me that they'll be issuing C&P cards from end of the summer, and all existing cards will be replaced at that stage.

While I was asking in the context of Amex Blue (which is more like a traditional credit card with a credit limit), I'd guess the same would apply to the traditional Amex green card.

tom dunne wrote:

And to anyone who thinks it is not as widely accepted as other cards - think again. I can only remember one place that wouldn't accept it in the last four years.

In general, I agree with you, though I wouldn't rely on Amex as my only card. It certainly is my preferred card. If you are thinking about getting Amex, I'd strongly recommend getting the Blue card which earns you 1% of all your spending as a credit on your account each year. This more than covers the 40 euro stamp duty.

BC · 19-05-2005 11:12pm

laser are not going to be chip & pin. AIB have introduced a new card that is a laser/maestro card, its a new type of card that is kinda treated like a credit card from a technie point of view which is why people with it use their pin.

Skyuser · 20-05-2005 2:31am

BC wrote:

laser are not going to be chip & pin. AIB have introduced a new card that is a laser/maestro card, its a new type of card that is kinda treated like a credit card from a technie point of view which is why people with it use their pin.

You are wrong, laser cards are going to be chip and pin, check out the chip and pin website and it will tell you there

GerardKeating · 20-05-2005 7:37am

tom dunne wrote:

Try American Express (the bog standard one). No chip/pin, no credit limit and you have to pay it off at the end of every month, so no massive bills.

Amex is going Chip&Pin later this year, as are Diners Club and JCB

tom dunne wrote:

And to anyone who thinks it is not as widely accepted as other cards - think again. I can only remember one place that wouldn't accept it in the last four years.

My experience is most majour outlets take Amex, about 90% of merchants.

nlgbbbblth · 27-05-2005 9:39pm

Skyuser wrote:

You are wrong, laser cards are going to be chip and pin, check out the chip and pin website and it will tell you there

Ulster Bank Lasercards are chip and pin

Remember people - the pin identifies you - personally

The Corinthian · 28-05-2005 7:57am

nlgbbbblth wrote:

Remember people - the pin identifies you - personally

The pin identifies someone who has your pin, which is probably you.

CJhaughey · 28-05-2005 9:49am

You can't accuse the Irish banking sector of being up to date with new technology, New Zealand has a system called EFTPOS Electronic Funds Transfer at Point of Sale, all Bank withdrawal cards are valid for use in this system.Oh it has been PIN since introduction maybe 10 years ago.

BC · 28-05-2005 2:47pm

Skyuser wrote:

You are wrong, laser cards are going to be chip and pin,
check out the chip and pin website and it will tell you there

I stand corrected!

Regarding the EftPos - France have also had that (PIN secured) for about 10 years.

nesf · 28-05-2005 3:21pm

The Corinthian wrote:

The pin identifies someone who has your pin, which is probably you.

I agree completely with you, and I've gone over this a few times in my head on this thing.

My thoughts so far:

1) If you lose your card it is unlikely that some random person picking it up will know your PIN. This would appear to be more secure, but with retailers accepting signiture instead of PIN during the transition phase it can be gotten around.

2) Forging signatures is not a hard thing to do. Finding out someone's PIN is more difficult and requires access/watching of the person using their card (assuming that the person isn't stupid enough to have a slip of paper in their wallet with a 4 digit number on it). Also signatures are rarely checked properly by retail staff, in my experience, and are a far less secure method of identifying the person.

3) It makes copying the card more difficult. This wasn't really general knowledge but there was a spate of "card copys" done about a year ago. It's possible to copy someone's card if you can get your hands on it and have the right equipment. The whole idea behind chipped cards is that they are far more difficult to copy without extremely specialised equipment.

4) Unless biometrics are used to identify the cardholder, PINs are the most effective method of keeping a card secure. There are more secure methods, but they aren't convenient for a user, and lets face it, convenience of using credit cards is a very important factor.

5) If your card is stolen and you report it, then you are not liable for purchases made on it. Whether or not the thief has your PIN is a moot point.

I thought long and hard about this and couldn't see how chip and pin isn't an improvement on signature identified cards. PINs are by no means fool proof and 100% safe, but they are a big improvement over using a signature to identify the card user.

Ideally of course, the chip would contain either a photo or fingerprint/whatever of the person and some form of scanner could do the identifying.

The problem is, such technology is no where near advanced enough and cheap enough to be implimented at this time. Give it 5 or 10 years though and they will probably be widespread.

Actually in 10 years, we might no longer have physical cash in our wallets. I'm not sure if this is a good or bad thing.

nlgbbbblth · 28-05-2005 3:59pm

over the years I have come across a least a dozen customers who had written their PIN on their ATM card. Usually in black marker. :rolleyes:

losers

Newaglish · 01-06-2005 11:25pm

BC is right; the new card we have is a Switch/Maestro one or something, and it's a Laser/Credit card in one, which is why it's Chip & Pin for both

Ack, didn't read the second page :P Apologies!

Also, anybody who writes down their PIN and keeps it in their wallet, or worse, writes it on their card, deserves to pay for their stupidity. Just change all your PIN's to your birthday or something. It's not hard! Gah!

Guy:Incognito · 01-06-2005 11:31pm

nesf wrote:

3) It makes copying the card more difficult. This wasn't really general knowledge but there was a spate of "card copys" done about a year ago. It's possible to copy someone's card if you can get your hands on it and have the right equipment. The whole idea behind chipped cards is that they are far more difficult to copy without extremely specialised equipment.

I had a guy come in to me in work and try to pay for something with what I thought looked like a daodgy CC. My suspicion was confirmed when I swiped the card and the machine prompted me to "insert chip card". Thats fine, but the card wasnt chip and pin.

Guy:Incognito · 01-06-2005 11:36pm

Newaglish wrote:

and it's a Laser/Credit card in one, which is why it's Chip & Pin for both
!

How does that work? I assume an option comes up on the machine whether you want to use laser or credit? I can imagine that being a bit of an annoyance with certain indecisive customers trawling through their pockets/bags reading receipts and bank statements to check which is the better method to pay.

CC Cards without chip/pin

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