How many driving lessons?!

tk123

Yesteray was my second driving lesson and my second time behind the wheel(i drive a bike at the mo)!!! Now I'd had a crap day in work so I was a bit knackered and a few times I got all confused and didn't know what I was doing(thank god for duel controls ). The instructor is really good but I'm wondering how long it's taken people to be confident and know whats what?! I know it depends on the individual but I'm just wondering what the average time is!? I don't have access to a car outside the lessons so I can't practice...

L5

without access to a car to practice on , then 8-10 lessons

pauln

If the instructor is any good then he should be able to tell you straight out if they think your ready for the test, they should do a mock test also closer to the date to be sure.

I think when I was learning I did around 5-6 lessons, I had some driving experience before that so I wasn't to bad starting off control wise. It's those bloody mirrors that took a bit of getting used to, and making sure to exaggerate the head movements when looking into them.

bazz26

Depends entirely on the individual. Some people only need around 5 lessons where as others need 10 or more. Practice, practice is my advice.

OLDYELLAR

I took eleven Just bought my first car thursday night
I think 8 would of done me , But I said flip it I mayaswell take a few extra when I have the guy now , I never thought id get used to those gears but there cool now.

Running Bing

I'v just finished my tenth hour of lessons and like you have no car. The thing is I feel that I was able to drive by about my fourth lesson but the real challenge is getting comfortable on the road and more importantly being safe on the road. I plan to have two more lessons but only now would I be comfortable driving on the road without duel controls.
Id say if money is no object go for as many as you need before youd feel comfortable on the road without duel controls. You'll know yourself when you get there.

DubTony

This is a subject very close to my heart as I believe the crap standard of driving is due to the very small amount of professional instruction we all receive. I started driving 22 years ago and took no lessons at all. My dad taught me how to drive, initially in a supermarket car park on a Sunday afternoon, (can't do that anymore) and later on the road.

I personally believe that nobody should ever take a car on the road until they have mastered the basics of how to operate the vehicle. I understand that it's difficult to find somewhere to practice these days but that's my opinion nonetheless.

From what I've seen on the boards and heard from others, it seems the average learner takes about 6 lessons. To me this is totally inadequate. I'd be of the opinion that every new driver should have as much instruction as possible - a minimum of 15 hours - and get lots of practice in.

I've been told that the cost of driving lessons is prohibitive. Tell me that after you've crashed a few times (hopefully only minor tips) and see if the cost of lessons would have been expensive then.

20 one hour lessons at €30 a pop is €600. A discount is guaranteed for this number. The thing is a good instructor will teach you about hazard perception and ensure you don't get silly habits.

Here's a list of my accidents.

1. Crashed into the back of a Montego on the canal while checking out a girl walking by. (No kidding)
2. Crashed into a Corolla turning right as I overtook him (yes - at a junction). Didn't know the junction was there becasue I didn't take note of the signs. OK, he hadn't indicated, but that's no excuse.
3. Ran the car up onto a bank while going round a bend too quickly after taking evasive action from a Golf encroaching on my side of the road coming the other way.
4. Ran into the back of a Colt that began to enter a roundabout, but stopped after conking out. I was looking to the right, and carried on into the back of it.
5. Hit a Fiesta on the rear quarterpanel and turned it over after it came through a blind junction without stopping. (The only crash that wasn't my fault)
6. Pulled out from a petrol station and hit the side of a Fiesta speeding by. I thought I'd loads of time but he was flying. Still my fault.
7. Rear ended a Nissan Sunny while contemplating why huge trucks had to drive through a town like Cashel. The driver had stopped for the same huge truck.

While it may not be completely obvious that these accidents were due to lack of instruction, it should be noted that none had to do with excessive speed. (I was travelling at the speed limit on the bend - inappropriately)Had these and other hazards been verbalised to me in lessons or some type of training, I can honestly say that most of them wouldn't have happened.

The total cost of the above accidents to me personally was only £400. The rest went through insurance, (mostly my dad's) but he forced me to cough up. When I started driving, 20 lessons would have cost £250 to £300.

I did 2 two hour pre-test lessons and the tips I received from a very good instructor were invaluable. Those few tips have prevented several more accidents over the years. Today I regard myself as a good and safe driver. But you don't want to learn the way I did - the hard way.

Get lessons, guys. Lots of them

Tony

Balfa

DubTony wrote:

Here's a list of my accidents. .................. Had these and other hazards been verbalised to me in lessons or some type of training, I can honestly say that most of them wouldn't have happened.

Jaysus that's crazy! Over what length of time did this collection of collisions occur? It's impressive that you even remember how many there are!

Today I regard myself as a good and safe driver.

How long are you collision free?

As for lessons, i probably had over 20 of them when learning (no other car to practice in), and it cost a hell of a lot. I felt comfortable enough to make the car be where i wanted it to be after about two or three lessons, but it's only after i passed my test and didn't have to worry about being in the precise gear for the speed or that stupid way you're "supposed" to turn the wheel that i truly felt totally comfortable driving. Of course i still pay huge attention to my mirrors.

As a matter of fact, i honestly believe i spent more time in Ireland looking behind me than in front. And when looking in front, make every effort to move your point of attention as far forward as possible. It's hard to miss something that happens immediately in front of you, as your peripheral vision will easily pick it up, so i tend to concentrate on about five to ten cars ahead. It will improve your anticipation tenfold. Always drive deliberately and predictably. Never ever neglect to use indicators, etc. just because there are no other cars around or any other reason like that. Trust me, you never get the situation 100% right and every little helps. If you have a lot of experience pedestrianing about (or better yet, cycling), you really get to appreciate how easy it is for drivers to miss a potentially crucial part of the unfolding scene.

I know the OP has experience on a bike, so all the above is kind of out place. It's not really directed towards anyone in particular, but i just couldn't stop myself rambling. Sorry

DubTony

Balfa wrote:

Jaysus that's crazy! Over what length of time did this collection of collisions occur? It's impressive that you even remember how many there are!

How long are you collision free?

This litany of destruction lasted for 15 years. I'm 7 years clean.

Actually I should have pointed out that the list is in no particular order. I think I'll remember every one like it was yesterday. And the last one was the silly one at the roundabout. My excuse was I was tired after an 11 hour shift.

30-6shooter

1. Crashed into the back of a Montego on the canal while checking out a girl walking by. (No kidding)
4. Ran into the back of a Colt that began to enter a roundabout, but stopped after conking out. I was looking to the right, and carried on into the back of it.
7. Rear ended a Nissan Sunny while contemplating why huge trucks had to drive through a town like Cashel. The driver had stopped for the same huge truck.
3. Ran the car up onto a bank while going round a bend too quickly after taking evasive action from a Golf encroaching on my side of the road coming the other way..

you say none of the accidients were a result from speeding,,, the amount of rear ended accidents shows you were driving too quick and way too close to the car in front, and the bend incident was also driving too fast.

No offense mate, but You dont have to be over the speeding limit to be driving too fast for the situation like,,,, :rolleyes: and you dont need 15 lessons to be told not to drive so close. Its common sense. Are you 1 of those dumb people that complain because theres a 80kmp sign on a ****ty country lane, and that ask dumb questions like "How could anyone do 80kmh on that lane?" instead of just driving at a reasonal speed for the lane. You get people like that, have no iinitiative and need to be told everything, like needing to be told specifically a speed limit sign on every road they go on :rolleyes:. You`d need a sign post every 2meters on the road for some people. They nearly need signs in between bends. :rolleyes:

2. Crashed into a Corolla turning right as I overtook him (yes - at a junction). Didn't know the junction was there becasue I didn't take note of the signs. OK, he hadn't indicated, but that's no excuse.
6. Pulled out from a petrol station and hit the side of a Fiesta speeding by. I thought I'd loads of time but he was flying. Still my fault.

We`ll let you away with the corolla incident as the nob didnt indicate and didnt look in the mirror obviosly either. Its 50/50 sort of. Pulling out in front of the fiesta cause you thought you`d loads of time How did u manage to hit his side then,,, he was obviously a lot lot closer than you say. I see that every day, i`d be going along doing 45/50mph in a 30/40mph zone, and people just pull out in front of you cause they "assume" the car coming is only doing 30mph. Again, that brings us back to no iinitiative, these people need to be told everything and to be told the approaching car "might not" be doing 30mph, instead of looking properly.
Ps: i dont have a habit of doing 50 in a 30/40 zone, but the bit im referring to is a straight wide bit and quiet.

I had 1 lesson, but i drove tractors and **** since i was 12, and had the general idea of driving, just needed road experience and understanding signs and stuff. Theres no way anyone needs 15 lessons, unless there retarded, have no initiative, or female. heh heh.

I dont think your crashes are a result of lack of lessons, experience counts for a lot which you had, and you still got yourself a pretty woefull record. I reckon general initiative is/was your downfall.

tk123

30-6shooter wrote:

Theres no way anyone needs 15 lessons, unless there retarded, have no initiative, or female. heh heh.

HEY?!?!! hehe! :rolleyes:
Thanks for the replies everybody! I'm just waiting for the click to happen when it all comes natural! I've only done 2x 2hr lessons so far but having the experience on the bike has helped me a lot. One of the things i find weird is the fact that people give you more leaway(sp?!) in the car than on the bike - like sometimes you could be waiting all night to make a turn on the bike where people stop and let you pass in a car?!?! I suppose the big learner triangle on the top of the car is part of that thou!!

saobh_ie

It's also because in a car, you’re now a threat, while on a bike... you were only a bike. =]

Back when I was driving, 1998 (I think) I took over twenty driving lessons (1 hour sometimes 2) IIRC, during the summer when I was working. Then I quit the job and went back to school and the following summer got insured in the parents car (second provisional now), drove around for a few hours in the first week with one of them and then used it when available for the six months I could afford to pay them for my insurance.

Then I went back to being a poor student on the buses. Then eight months ago I bought a motorcycle, a little 125. My first ten hours in the presence of the bike while it was running were with an instructor; the first five of those hours were off public roads learning everything possible about machine control. When I got out on the road I paid no attention to operation of the machinery and put my efforts into reading the road, (search, predict, act).

This was a huge difference to my car driving experience. First lesson, “Jump in there and adjust the seat…” to which I replied “Shouldn’t we go to a car park so I can learn how to work the car?” and he replied, “Ah, Sure you’ll learn nothing that way!”

So back to bike training, after that ten hours I did nothing until my first low side at 0500 on a winters morning on a roundabout on ice. Ah!!! WTF happened!?!?! I decided not to buy new shiny bits for the bike and leave the scratched ones on, spending the money on training, money I didn’t have yet. I had another low side on diesel while travelling at 5mph on a mini-roundabout a month later and met up with an instructor two weeks following that.

So far I’ve probably had 25 hours of motorcycle instruction and had a further 15 planned before my bike (Cat A) test in twenty days. But then I got run over by a car while doing everything right, well I was being invisible. Stupid me, I should have been more careful, lights, indicators, bright red jacket clearly weren’t enough.

Following that training I’ve got a month before my car (Cat test so that’ll be another bunch of car lessons then, not going to bother getting insured on the parents car, I can’t afford it having to fork out so much money on instructors in such a short space of time.

All of my motorcycle instructors have been highly qualified, multiple qualifications in advanced riding and training from various bodies. My driving instructor, he was probably some dude in a car with a driver’s licence and more than the mandatory two L plates on the car. My next driving instructor will have a recognised qualification, if such a thing exists.

In any case, I don’t expect I’ll need that many car lessons as being a motorcyclist my observation is of good enough standard to pass the government test (although not enough to survive Irish roads lol).

Anyway, once I pass those it’s off to England to get myself some advanced qualifications for the bike. And once I have those I will continue to invest money in training as things are getting worse out there and skills degrade over time and having yourself checked over by an expert every month or so will not do a bit of harm, its what they do.

Balfa

saobh_ie wrote:

And once I have those I will continue to invest money in training as things are getting worse out there and skills degrade over time

Very smart thinking. I'm going to do the texas defensive driving course next month (it's only because a 25 year old male with defensive driving has a lower premium, but it's still a good idea in general).

tk123, one lesson is just not enough. Having tractor experience and being able to use a clutch is a world away from the road sense, anticipation and situation reading that you need (and lessons help you develop) to drive among other road users. I consider myself (don't we all) an excellent driver, but i don't think i'd be as good if i had half the lessons.

Ardent

I took 15 45-minutes lessons from Feb-April. I honestly believe you need that many before you can start driving with any degree of confidence, especially around cities like Dublin. (Some of the worst, most dangerous drivers in Ireland are driving around Dublin!)

saobh_ie

I think advanced training is a great idea but I don't think the majority of people know it exists. There's also the "I already know how to drive." attitude, which is fine. Your trained but most people aren't so extra training on your part is necessary to make up for the gross deficiencies of other road users.

For example, I was riding perfectly as per my ‘basic’ training, complying with the rules of the road, the act and regulations and still got caught out by another person’s failures. A lot of people think that once they pass the government-driving test they’re grand but they’re not, not really.

Also I just noticed tk’s original question was about the amount of time before you were confidant not the number of lessons… 10 lessons could take three months with my current work commitments.

Confidence to get behind the wheel (alone) and go off on a long journey and know that I would get there without messing up [1] the operation of the controls (stalling, crunchy shifting, turning the wheel the wrong way while parking) [2] putting the car where I wanted it (putting myself where I wanted to go at the right time, speed and angle) and heading off [3] without fear of meeting a horrible end.

Took a week.

But I was an idiot!

Driving with an instructor gets really easy really fast. Most people then stop and when they get into a car alone without a voice in their ear they have to do all the observation/thinking/driving. So what I’m saying is when you get comfortable, maybe change instructors/companies.

Train your, you’ll laugh, lizard brain while there’s somebody around. Your lizard brain does all the boring repetitive stuff you’ve done a few hundred times before. You need to be able to look for things to avoid, think of a plan and then go back to looking for more things to avoid while your lizard brain does the driving.

Hehe. You can tell I read a lot of junk and have had far to many wacky driving instructors. Which reminds me, I need to find a good driving instructor sharpish.

And Thanks Balfa, driving in America, woo dangerous. Read about people getting shot at for bad driving or complaining about others bad driving… we should try that here… give every road user guns and make all cars so that they explode immediately following any impact.

Hotblack Desiato

saobh_ie wrote:

Anyway, once I pass those it’s off to England to get myself some advanced qualifications for the bike.

Whuhuh? You will get instructors here every bit as well qualified in paper terms as anyone in the UK, if you know where to look. Actually, probably more qualified in real world terms, given our 'challenging' crap road surfaces, crap drivers and crap signs which the UK instructors will NOT prepare you for.

For example, I was riding perfectly as per my ‘basic’ training, complying with the rules of the road, the act and regulations and still got caught out by another person’s failures.

Sorry to hear Grasshopper, but the true path to enlightenment lies not alone in following the Way but also in anticipating and avoiding others failures to follow the Way :rolleyes:

saobh_ie

You can get RoSpa stuff and all here like my motorcycling heros?!? =]

Which are.. those IRTA guys... I though they all had to go over the water...

ninja900 wrote:

Sorry to hear Grasshopper, but the true path to enlightenment lies not alone in following the Way but also in anticipating and avoiding others failures to follow the Way :rolleyes:

and fully scrubbed in tires for knee down cornering...

Gator

Lets get things straight,stop getting driving lessons & start getting cooking lessons,no man wants to go out with you for your driving skills now does he!!!!!Hopefully if you stop driving,it'll be 1 more lunatic off the road!!!!!

Dizzyblabla

I had about 3 10 minute lessons with my mom first, because I refused to pay €30 to be told how to start and stop the car (which I didn't know how to do at first) then Ihad about 6 lessons, maybe 7 with an instructor, but I was still a little nervous, but when I was asking him when I could meet him for the next lesson, he was all like, emm.,.. how about you wait until you've applied for your test and you have a date..

I started driving on my own then (ya ya, I know, on my 1st provisional I'm supposed to have a fully licensed driver in the car with me, but to be honest, I couldn't imagine my mom getting up at 6am to sit in the car with me on the way to work).. But I was still nervous of things like parking and narrow roads, it's a few months later and I wonder what I was ever nervous about at all!

Be careful though, because to be honest, I worry about more of the fully licensed drivers out there more than I do the learners.. there's so many people who don't have a clue what they're doing that it's scary!

Best of luck, once you do have a car, you'll wonder how you ever managed without it!

saobh_ie

Exactly. I'm a learner and I know I'm not great and have stuff to learn compared to the driver who has thier full liscene, who possibly never sat a test and is driving around in a big powerful car with cheap insurance thinking he knows it all.

True they have a lot of experience but you don't get experience until the fires are out. There's always something that will catch you out, it just depends on how lucky you are.

Hotblack Desiato

saobh_ie wrote:

You can get RoSpa stuff and all here like my motorcycling heros?!? =] Which are.. those IRTA guys... I though they all had to go over the water...

Currently the RoSPA-trained instructors (e.g. IRTA) have to go to the UK to get their instructors' certificate, but there's plenty of 'em based here (and even beyond that level, there are several RoSPA Diploma holders based here in Ireland, this qualification is seriously hard to get.)

There is no problem training for or taking your RoSPA test here in Ireland, which will take you to Bronze / Silver / Gold level (assuming you pass ) which is rather handy for insurance purposes. Either of the guys you've trained with can give you the full story - at least one of 'em already holds the coveted Diploma but he's a bit modest

unkel

L5 wrote:

without access to a car to practice on , then 8-10 lessons

Yeah right. That's why an Irish Full License = Mickey Mouse License and the average Irish driver is the worst in Europe by far

DO NOT GET ME WRONG - I don't blame any of you going about your business driving alone without a license or what not. This is faulty legislation - nothing to do with anybody driving a car as such!!

DubTony wrote:

This is a subject very close to my heart as I believe the crap standard of driving is due to the very small amount of professional instruction we all receive

Tony, I applaud you for your posting the naked truth and for being so brutally honest about it. On the continent one can't drive a car until one passes the test. This is typically after about 50-60 hours instruction (if one passes the test first time) in a dual-control vehicle

Hotblack Desiato

unkel wrote:

I don't blame any of you going about your business driving alone without a license or what not. This is faulty legislation - nothing to do with anybody driving a car as such!!

Actually it is. There's nothing stopping people from taking proper lessons even though the law doesn't require it.
Why is 'barely competent' the limit of the ambitions of the Irish road user?
"Ah shure it'll do" extracts a price in human life.

BrianD3

The comments about inadequate training are spot on but like ninja900 I blame people themselves as well as the government. In this country it's seen as a "badge of honour" to boast about how few lessons you took before you passed your test and to try and the impression that you were born with a stering wheel in your hands :rolleyes:

This boasting mentality is really immature and stupid. It's like when you do the leaving cert and you hear muppets goin on about how they got 500 points but "didn't do a tap" of work for it. Yeah right :rolleyes:

edmund_f

sort of like the M chromosome, the fictitious gene which muppets think gives them an genetic ability to drive, which means they are above learning how to drive like the rest of us mere mortals.

DubTony

30-6shooter wrote:

you say none of the accidients were a result from speeding,,, the amount of rear ended accidents shows you were driving too quick and way too close to the car in front, and the bend incident was also driving too fast.

pfft .... you've some cheek, pal. It's an awful shame you weren't there to show me the error of my ways. For some reason you've assumed that there was carnage on the road due to my speeding. Well here it is tractor boy. I've highlighted my replies for you, so you don't miss anything.

1. Crashed into the back of a Montego on the canal while checking out a girl walking by. (No kidding)

There was heavy traffic on the canal that beautiful sunny day and we were moving at about 10 mph. Cracked my front bumper on the Montego tow bar.

4. Ran into the back of a Colt that began to enter a roundabout, but stopped after conking out. I was looking to the right, and carried on into the back of it.

Spawell roundabout in Templeogue at 6 pm. Gridlock. Read the post and figure it out for yourself. Broke the rear fog light on the colt.

7. Rear ended a Nissan Sunny while contemplating why huge trucks had to drive through a town like Cashel. The driver had stopped for the same huge truck.

Cashel on a bank holiday weekend Friday afternoon. Traffic moving at about 5 mph. Was looking at the truck when the guy in front stopped ... and I didn't. Scraped his bumper, I think. It was hard to tell, his bumper was held on by an elastic rope.

3. Ran the car up onto a bank while going round a bend too quickly after taking evasive action from a Golf encroaching on my side of the road coming the other way..

I think I've already addressed this one, as I did say I was driving at the speed limit inappropriately. But let me expand my explanation for you. It was a 30 mph zone and I came to a left turning 90 degree bend. I knew the road and had driven it hundreds of times. Unfortunately, the guy coming the other way was cutting the corner. We avoided each other but my lack of instruction and experience left me clueless. Damage to my car? Serious. The chassis took a whack when the car landed and was bent slightly.

and you dont need 15 lessons to be told not to drive so close.

All the rear enders were in stop-start traffic, and I've already addressed them

Are you 1 of those dumb people that complain because theres a 80kmp sign on a ****ty country lane, and that ask dumb questions like "How could anyone do 80kmh on that lane?" instead of just driving at a reasonal speed for the lane. You get people like that, have no iinitiative and need to be told everything, like needing to be told specifically a speed limit sign on every road they go on :rolleyes:. You`d need a sign post every 2meters on the road for some people. They nearly need signs in between bends. :rolleyes:

No, I'm not one of those people. In fact I believe that the blanket speed limiting of "country lanes" at 80k is ridiculous and in most cases should be lower. The rest of your little rant thing doesn't seem to be aimed at me.

We`ll let you away with the corolla incident as the nob didnt indicate and didnt look in the mirror obviosly either.

WOW! Thanks a lot. But I wouldn't let me away with it. Fact is, I was overtaking at a junction. If I didn't know the road ahead I shouldn't have been overtaking on it. And anyway, isn't it illegal to overtake at a junction? If you think this is acceptable, it says more about your driving than mine. Maybe you didn't learn this on your lesson. You might need to get a few more.
On top of that, this was the most serious accident of them all, apart from turning the Fiesta on it's roof. (I'm surprised you didn't find fault in that. But then, you weren't there, were you?) The damage to the guys car was over £800 and the Renault 18 I was driving was hit to the tune of £1200. That's about €6500 in todays money allowing for inflation. Add to that, if I had been speeding I could have done some serious damage to the occupants of the car.

Pulling out in front of the fiesta cause you thought you`d loads of time How did u manage to hit his side then,,, he was obviously a lot lot closer than you say.

Let me go through it for you. I was exiting the (now) Maxol garage in Templeogue and he was coming round the bend 100 yards away. I saw him after looking once and pulled out past the parked cars on my right. By the time I reached the road proper he was there and I scraped across his rear passenger side wheel arch. The skid marks he left (after the impact) proved he was speeding. But my hands are up.

I see that every day, i`d be going along doing 45/50mph in a 30/40mph zone, and people just pull out in front of you cause they "assume" the car coming is only doing 30mph. Again, that brings us back to no iinitiative, these people need to be told everything and to be told the approaching car "might not" be doing 30mph, instead of looking properly.

Let me get this right. You'd do 45/50 mph in a 30/40 mph zone .... And you accuse me of speeding?

And this is why good instruction is necessary. At age 18 it's not all about initiative, it's about training. Let me state a fact. I'll put it in red so you can be sure you remember it. And I'll make it bold as well.
Inexperienced drivers are more likely to misjudge the speed of an oncoming vehicle than more experienced ones.
However a good instructor will train you to check again or at least keep an eye on the approaching vehicle to try to determine it's speed.

I dont think your crashes are a result of lack of lessons, experience counts for a lot which you had, and you still got yourself a pretty woefull record. I reckon general initiative is/was your downfall.

Call it what you like. You say you drove a tractor from age 12. Just because it says Lamborghini on the side doesn't make you a good or experienced driver. Pulling a plough across a field is a lot different to driving on the roads And sure, initiative and some degree of cop-on is necessary. But by getting good instruction and training in hazard perception (did I mention that?) a driver can effectively add years of experience to what is a very short driving history.

After reading through your attack on me, I'm of the opinion that you look at things in a very black and white way, or maybe through rose-tinted glasses. When you do crash whatever you drive on the road, remember this forum and this post in particular. And do the rest of us a favour, get some lessons. Consider yourself slapped