Bus overturned in Kentstown (Navan)

whippet

very nasty

rte.ie news

Astro1996

Breaking on Itv news and skynews, very sad

mike65

Bumping this one over to Commuting/Transport.

Mike.

mike65

Five girls killed in bus crash

Five teenage girls have been killed in a school bus crash in County Meath in the Irish Republic.

It is understood the bus, with about 40 secondary school children on board, overturned at Casey's Cross at Kentstown near Navan.

The accident happened at about 1630 BST. An Irish police spokesman said: "The collision involved a number of vehicles including a school bus.

"A number of children were trapped on the bus as a result of the collision."

At least nine ambulances were believed to have travelled to the scene along with helicopters and heavy lifting equipment.

The bus was lying on its side in a ditch. It is believed there were road works in the area at the time of the crash.

Walking wounded were being treated at local houses.

Caroline McDonnell, a teacher at Montesorri school in Kentstown, told the Press Association that the bus had been returning pupils to the area from schools in Navan.

"The bus was full of girls and boys from different schools returning home," Ms McDonnell said.

"Some of our neighbours' children were on the bus and they have left to go the scene."

Mike.

Hagar

How old was the bus?
Are the fools still using ancient unsafe vehicles to transport our most precious children?

Shame. Shame Shame. :mad:

MrJoeSoap

Thats horrible news.

Thoughts with the families.

cdebru

Hagar wrote:

How old was the bus?
Are the fools still using ancient unsafe vehicles to transport our most precious children?

Shame. Shame Shame. :mad:

before you jump in and start apportioning blame it might be better to wait for the details

Hagar

cdebru wrote:

before you jump in and start apportioning blame it might be better to wait for the details

Yeah right.
I heard the same comment from people about the Wellington Quay crash.
By the time the investigation comes and goes it will be old news.
That's just the way they like it.

Chalk

didnt the wellington quay involve the brand new buses that cie bought?
i thought it was that the drivers left them in gear with the handbrake on rather than any faulty equiment, no?

peasant

Are there seat belts on (school) buses yet ??

Because I really think there should be ...

stoneroses

May they rest in peace.

John R

Hagar wrote:

Yeah right.
I heard the same comment from people about the Wellington Quay crash.
By the time the investigation comes and goes it will be old news.
That's just the way they like it.

And you jumped in and posted a pile of crap about that too.

The point of an investigation is to find out what actually happened not just to scapegoat people you have a prejudice about.

I realise that is terribly inconvenient for you, after all it is not everyday you can use others misery to mud-sling.

MrJoeSoap

The bus was a 1993.

From the (somewhat sketchy) details coming through it looks like the bus swerved to avoid a collision between two cars that had already happened.

embraer170

Without wanting to scapegoat people. Facts:

Ireland:
*has the oldest school bus fleet of the the EU of 15
*one of the last countries not to have seatbelts in its school bus fleet
*is one of the few countries to allow 3 kids to to sit in seats

embraer170

John R

MrJoeSoap wrote:

The bus was a 1993.

One of these, a DAF MB230 53 seater coach.
Thousands of almost identical coaches are used daily all across Europe. Hardly ancient or unsafe.

eth0_

It is absolutely insane that seatbelts aren't mandatory on buses in Ireland. You're at just as much risk in a bus/coach as in a car, after all. I'm sure a lot of lives could have been saved today if they'd been wearing seat belts.

It's very sad indeed. Hopefully now our rubbish government will bother their lazy arses to legislate for seatbelts in buses, and to get rid of all the 30 year old school buses in use (I know the bus concerned today was only a 93 but still, the amount of rust buckets CIE use isn't good). It's typical of this country to be apathetic about this sort of thing until there's a massive tragedy like this one.

MrJoeSoap

John R wrote:

Hardly ancient or unsafe.

I only said it was a 1993, I'm not blaming anybody for this, as far as I can see it was no more than an incredibly unfortunate tragedy.

John R

I wasn't suggesting you were MrJoeSoap, it was a previous poster who made that remark.
Sorry for the Confusion.

parsi

eth0_ wrote:

It is absolutely insane that seatbelts aren't mandatory on buses in Ireland. You're at just as much risk in a bus/coach as in a car, after all. I'm sure a lot of lives could have been saved today if they'd been wearing seat belts.

It's very sad indeed. Hopefully now our rubbish government will bother their lazy arses to legislate for seatbelts in buses, and to get rid of all the 30 year old school buses in use (I know the bus concerned today was only a 93 but still, the amount of rust buckets CIE use isn't good). It's typical of this country to be apathetic about this sort of thing until there's a massive tragedy like this one.

Will you accept a tax increase in the next budget to pay for it ? Here in Ireland we all want the lowest tax and the best public services that little money can buy.

I think we should have ploughed some of our Celtic Tiger into schools, health and infrastructure and held of from being so hellbent on reducing tax.

embraer170

One of these, a DAF MB230 53 seater coach.
Thousands of almost identical coaches are used daily all across Europe. Hardly ancient or unsafe.

Until you factor in no seatbelts and three school kids per set of two seats.

eth0_

parsi wrote:

Will you accept a tax increase in the next budget to pay for it ? Here in Ireland we all want the lowest tax and the best public services that little money can buy.

Well I think money could be diverted from some of the useless 'amenities' that our government spends money on...the National Aquatic Centre being one!

Libero

This is a shocking tragedy and right now there must be dozens of families deeply affected by it.

Rushing to judgement won't serve any good but neither will waiting many months for a report that states the obvious.

I don't know about this incident but big, strong buses like the one involved today rarely come off too badly when there's a road traffic accident involving cars. In other words, it's the car passengers who get crushed while the bus passengers just get a bit of a knock.

All that changes if there are no seatbelts and the vehicle overturns at speed.
I'm sure you all remember that TV road safety add with "Body to Body" by Samantha Mumba playing in the background and the UK one with the tagline "many are killed by someone they know". These showed what can happen when car passengers don't wear seatbelts and while it's disturbing to think about it, the ping-pong effect of heads being thrown around against hard surfaces may also have been at play here. This is especially true when the casualty figures indicate that pretty much everyone on the bus was injured.
On the other hand, injuries caused by impact and structural deformity that results from one side of the bus hitting and scraping the ground or other vehicles is not easily prevented by wearing seatbelts.

cdebru

embraer170 wrote:

Until you factor in no seatbelts and three school kids per set of two seats.

it is a 53 seater bus every child had their own seat on this particular Bus

cdebru

Hagar wrote:

Yeah right.
I heard the same comment from people about the Wellington Quay crash.
By the time the investigation comes and goes it will be old news.
That's just the way they like it.

yes they should just ask you what happened no need for an investigation

parsi

eth0_ wrote:

Well I think money could be diverted from some of the useless 'amenities' that our government spends money on...the National Aquatic Centre being one!

You're damn right there ! That was some waste.

cdebru

Chalk wrote:

didnt the wellington quay involve the brand new buses that cie bought?
i thought it was that the drivers left them in gear with the handbrake on rather than any faulty equiment, no?

alledgedly however that reason does not make much sense for a couple of reasons

the report was not published in case it might affect the outcome of any court case AFAIK

vinnyfitz

From the BBC report:

The road was wet and a few hundred yards back from the scene there was a sign for road works. The road was being repaired, the machine being used to lay new tar was visible close to the crash.

The road had been narrowed to single file traffic to allow for the work to be carried out. Two cars, one silver in colour and the other dark, lay just past the road works. It appeared they had hit head on and the dark coloured car was very badly damaged.

Further back a traffic light was visible on the road side. The bus was travelling in the same direction as one of the cars, it appeared to have swerved to the other side of the road.

Hagar

I live in France.
The Municiple Police are at every school every day making sure that parents/others collecting children do not interfere with the safe boarding of childdren onto a modern, and I do mean modern, fleet of school buses taking children home. They close streets adjacent to schools to ensure no through traffic at crucial times. Yes, it does cost tax money. Lots of it. I pay it gladly.

Bus Eireann are an incompetant shower of gobshytes.
They always have been.
They always will until somebody is made accountable on a personal level.

Personally I wouldn't drive a 93 car with no seatbelts.
Why should children be expected to travel in them?

There are buses as old as 82 in the Bus Eireann fleet. Disgraceful I say.
What about all the small private bus companies? From what I saw in Roscommon they were an accident waiting to happen. Buses from the 70's.
Obviously ex UK judging by the name and phone numbers still painted on them.
No doubt they would not pass mustard in the UK but they were fine for our kids.

Thw children were ferried to a number of hospitals according to the news.
Could one local hospital not cope?
Jesus help the people of Ireland if a real major disaster occurs.

My heart goes out to the families. But its going to happen again...

cdebru

Hagar wrote:

I live in France.
The Municiple Police are at every school every day making sure that parents/others collecting children do not interfere with the safe boarding of childdren onto a modern, and I do mean modern, fleet of school buses taking children home. They close streets adjacent to schools to ensure no through traffic at crucial times. Yes, it does cost tax money. Lots of it. I pay it gladly.

Bus Eireann are an incompetant shower of gobshytes.
They always have been.
They always will until somebody is made accountable on a personal level.

Personally I wouldn't drive a 93 car with no seatbelts.
Why should children be expected to travel in them?

There are buses as old as 82 in the Bus Eireann fleet. Disgraceful I say.
What about all the small private bus companies? From what I saw in Roscommon they were an accident waiting to happen. Buses from the 70's.
Obviously ex UK judging by the name and phone numbers still painted on them.
No doubt they would not pass mustard in the UK but they were fine for our kids.

Thw children were ferried to a number of hospitals according to the news.
Could one local hospital not cope?
Jesus help the people of Ireland if a real major disaster occurs.

My heart goes out to the families. But its going to happen again...

I think you are being unfair on Bus Eireann they can only provide a service with the resources they have been allocated
blaming them and presuming they are at fault as soon as something goes wrong is unfair to people who try and provide a service with the very limited means available

yes you are right we dont spend enough money on our schools let alone a safe mode of transport to ferry them to and from it
unfortunately in Ireland it seems that unless something can be operated for a profit the Government have very little interest in it and try and spend as little as possible on it
that is why we have people driving our schoolchildren around in 30 year old buses because it is cheaper because safety takes second place to cost

Mr. Presentable

Seatbelts should of course be mandatory on all vehicles.

However, if you can't get motorists to wear them, why would you expect kids to?

How fast would the bus have been going to end up turned around and flipped over?

cdebru

spannerhead wrote:

Seatbelts should of course be mandatory on all vehicles.

However, if you can't get motorists to wear them, why would you expect kids to?

How fast would the bus have been going to end up turned around and flipped over?

just from reading the news reports it would seem this is what possibly may have happened

that two cars collided head on in front the road was wet

the road was down to a single lane due to resurfacing the driver of the bus swerved to avoid the accident in front and went into the ditch at the side of the road causing the bus to turn onto its side

that is just what possibly happened by reading the media reports and it would not have to be going fast at all

Libero

cdebru wrote:

I think you are being unfair on Bus Eireann they can only provide a service with the resources they have been allocated
blaming them and presuming they are at fault as soon as something goes wrong is unfair to people who try and provide a service with the very limited means available

yes you are right we dont spend enough money on our schools let alone a safe mode of transport to ferry them to and from it
unfortunately in Ireland it seems that unless something can be operated for a profit the Government have very little interest in it and try and spend as little as possible on it
that is why we have people driving our schoolchildren around in 30 year old buses because it is cheaper because safety takes second place to cost

All the facts of this will come out in the wash.

Perhaps it is the case that Bus Éireann lobbied the government for money for seatbelts but were turned down.
On the other hand, it wouldn't surprise me if they lobbied against the mandatory introduction of seatbelts if the government wouldn't fully fund the few million it would take to fit them.

It is convenient for state companies to claim lack of funding for poor health and safety records. There is no shortage of people willing to believe them, even if the safety measures in question would not mean any great expenditure. In addition, it is an excuse rarely extended to private companies, no matter how thin their margins.

And the issue of seatbelts is very important. Breakingnews.ie states that "Some were still trapped on the bus, while others had been thrown through the glass window by the force of the impact." That last part would be quite unlikely if seatbelts were present.

A Dub in Glasgo

Terrible tragedy

From the BBC report, it sounds as if one of the cars in front had went through the temporary red roadwork lights (how else would a head on collison on a single lane happen)

mike65

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

From the BBC report, it sounds as if one of the cars in front had went through the temporary red roadwork lights

How often do we see ppl doing that? Saw an example today...

Mike.

Victor

eth0_ wrote:

It is absolutely insane that seatbelts aren't mandatory on buses in Ireland. You're at just as much risk in a bus/coach as in a car, after all.

Without getting into the particular case, busses and coaches have very different dynamics to cars.

But yes, I think medium and long distances services should have seat-belts.

hawkmoon269

Ok folks, time for a quick injection of reality here.

The fact is, road transport is inherently dangerous.

Travelling by bus is particularly so.

We are talking about a large object hurtling down a narrow stretch of tarmac at considerable speed. The wonder is that there are not more accidents involving buses.

Of course, all necessary steps should be taken to make road transport safer, but the fact is it's never going to be entirely safe. That is the Faustian pact our society (and all industrial societies) entered into a long time ago.

In the aftermath of this tragic incident, I expect the usual scapegoating. They'll probably try and prosecute the bus-driver as they did in the quay incident in Dublin last year. This is nothing but scapegoating to salve the public conscience which dictates that when something goes wrong, someone must be to blame. The reality is, no-one is to blame, except US collectively as a society.

Sorry if that's too much truth for some of you to handle.

A Dub in Glasgo

mike65 wrote:

How often do we see ppl doing that? Saw an example today...

Mike.

Running the red at temp traffic lights is very common. I would not be surprised if that was the cause of the 2 car collison. It is then down to accident mitigation with respect to the issue of seat belts on the bus. It would have been safer for the bus passengers if the bus had collided with the cars rather than avoiding them but it is instinct from the bus driver.

cdebru

Libero wrote:

All the facts of this will come out in the wash.

Perhaps it is the case that Bus Éireann lobbied the government for money for seatbelts but were turned down.
On the other hand, it wouldn't surprise me if they lobbied against the mandatory introduction of seatbelts if the government wouldn't fully fund the few million it would take to fit them.

It is convenient for state companies to claim lack of funding for poor health and safety records. There is no shortage of people willing to believe them, even if the safety measures in question would not mean any great expenditure. In addition, it is an excuse rarely extended to private companies, no matter how thin their margins.

And the issue of seatbelts is very important. Breakingnews.ie states that "Some were still trapped on the bus, while others had been thrown through the glass window by the force of the impact." That last part would be quite unlikely if seatbelts were present.

yeah the issue of seatbelts is important but you cannot reasonably attack the operator for operating within the regulations
If seatbelts are a vital safety device required on buses and coaches why does the law not state that.
blaming Bus Eireann for this is nonsensical but of course there are those that just love to give the semi state a lash

unfortunately in Ireland it usually takes some people to be killed before action is taken
I remember listening to Joe duffy about a year ago talking about the state of school buses but in Ireland we have made some choices we wanted lower taxes and with that comes ****ty public services until people change and realise that we cannot have proper public services without spending money on them we are doomed to repeat our mistakes over and over again

hawkmoon269

parsi wrote:

Will you accept a tax increase in the next budget to pay for it ? Here in Ireland we all want the lowest tax and the best public services that little money can buy.

I think we should have ploughed some of our Celtic Tiger into schools, health and infrastructure and held of from being so hellbent on reducing tax.

Exactly. We want to have it both ways, and some of the comments on the thread are indicative of that. Then when something goes wrong, we'll lash out at the nearest available scapegoat - the bus-drivers, CIE, etc.

cdebru

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Running the red at temp traffic lights is very common. I would not be surprised if that was the cause of the 2 car collison. It is then down to accident mitigation with respect to the issue of seat belts on the bus. It would have been safer for the bus passengers if the bus had collided with the cars rather than avoiding them but it is instinct from the bus driver.

it is instinct to try to avoid the obvious collision in this case it may have ended up in a worse accident but it is virtually impossible to override that instinct

Sarsfield

Hagar wrote:

Thw children were ferried to a number of hospitals according to the news.
Could one local hospital not cope?
Jesus help the people of Ireland if a real major disaster occurs.

At this point I decided you're nothing but a troll. Or an idiot. Probably both.

nlgbbbblth

hawkmoon269 wrote:

Ok folks, time for a quick injection of reality here.

The fact is, road transport is inherently dangerous.

Travelling by bus is particularly so.

I would have thought one is safer on the bus/train than on the car

...terrible tragedy. :mad:

jesus_thats_gre

eth0_ wrote:

Well I think money could be diverted from some of the useless 'amenities' that our government spends money on...the National Aquatic Centre being one!

God you are an awful ass sometimes... Just because you do not think it is important it does not mean it is useless.



Back on topic, it is a terrible tragedy.. I remember the busses I used to get when I was in Primary School. They really were balls of ****e. They used to be used at weekends as busses for nightclubs and I dont know how many times we found pint glasses in the seats.

Seat Belts are obviously needed on coaches for any out of town journeys.

BrianD

It seems that there is no interest in investing in public school transport and this is underlined by the fact that large numbers of people are driven to school by their parents. This has started a viscious circle where the government doesn't invest because there seems to be no demand. Bus Eireann are lumbered with providing the service and it would seem that they move their older buses onto the schoold bus fleet. The private sector who operate similar services appear to do the same.

I did notice that the bus seemed to have those seats with the metal bars across the top instead of the more modern seats. Anybody else notice that?

hawkmoon269

nlgbbbblth wrote:

I would have thought one is safer on the bus/train than on the car

...terrible tragedy. :mad:

One is safer on the TRAIN than on the car, unquestionably. I never said otherwise, and I am a firm advocate of rail transport. However, as I already said all forms of road transport are inherently dangerous, particularly in areas with relatively narrow roads but relatively heavy volumes of traffic. Such as Meath.

Victor

First you say:

hawkmoon269 wrote:

Travelling by bus is particularly [dangerous].

Then you say:

hawkmoon269 wrote:

The wonder is that there are not more accidents involving buses.

Bus travel is an order of scale safer than car travel.

http://www.nra.ie/PublicationsResources/DownloadableDocumentation/RoadSafety/d1736.PDF

ROAD COLLISION FACTS IRELAND 2003
SECTION 3: CASUALTIES
Table 18 All Casualties Classified by Road User Type
Casualty Class - Killed
Injury Injury
Pedestrians - 64
Pedal Cycle Users - 11
Motor Cycle Users - 55
Car Users - 172
PSV Users - 0
Goods Vehicle Users - 27
Other - 6
TOTAL - 335

Victor

http://www.buseireann.ie/site/about_us/pdf/BE_04_pics.pdf

68 replacement school buses have been sourced to replace older vehicles in the fleet. In addition, 60 buses were cascaded from the Bus Éireann service fleet, resulting in a total of 128 replacement buses introduced in 2004. This is part of an ongoing fleet replacement programme, and represents the replacement of almost 20% of this fleet in 2004.

None of these were new busses.

Metrobest

This is a terrible tragedy. I think tragedy/accident are the important words here. We shouldn't be getting into the blame game until the facts are more clear. Personally, I think the age of the bus is neither here nor there. With the best safety measures in the world, accidents can still, and do still, happen.

That said, one thing the accident does show is the bad state of Ireland's roads, many of which are unsuitable for the volumes and types of traffic they are carrying. It does emphasise the importance of putting people before petty politics, and in the light of the M3/N3 debate, people's safety before archaeology.

John R

BrianD wrote:

I did notice that the bus seemed to have those seats with the metal bars across the top instead of the more modern seats. Anybody else notice that?

No, it has high backed coach seats. All of that type are still in the main Bus Eireann fleet and would be used on regular scheduled services as well as school bus duties.


3-point Passenger seatbelts have been fitted to all coaches bought by BE since the mid '90s. Before that they weren't widely available for technical reasons.


The age of the school bus fleet has decreased considerably in the past few years and the quality of the vehicles used is far better than previously. Obviously they have not been able to buy new buses under the current budgets but the suggestion that 30 year old vehicles are still used is wrong. The oldest buses in use are the KR rural buses that were cascaded from local services a few years ago, they are up to 20 years old and are due to be replaced shortly.

BrianD

Metrobest, is all fairness the N3/M3 debate is irrelevant to this incident. One of the last major bus incidents I recall was on a dual carriageway (though there were no fatalities). There are roads like this everywhere in the world that school buses travel on and we have one of the largest networks of rural roads in Ireland. And don't be an idiot by suggesting that peoples lives are being put in front archaeology.

John_r...you are correct about the seats. Just noticed it on the later bulletins. There is going to be alot of debate about seat belts on buses but where is it going to go? Few "city buses" in any country have them as do many long distance services (though they are more likely to have them) - these services are just as likely to have an accident as a school bus. Newer BE buses have them but you always feel like you are the only one when you belt up.

Cascaded ... now theres a new word for hand me downs.