How to Improve the Eircom League?

Slash/ED

Big Ears wrote:

Ive an idea just as radical as this if not more so (and once again the Dublin poeple would be strongly against it) .

Have a county team from the 28 counties + Derry , and either have 2 divisions of 10 and 1 of 9 or have 1 division of 14 and the other of 15 .

I main idea of this is people love to support their county be it hurling football or whatever they love their county doing well , and when their not doing well a decent crowd watch them anyway . Therefore attendances would be raised . Another main thing is each county would have a team , so everyone has a team to support , at the moment my county Tipp has no representative in the Eircom league and I find this a real shame as I know there is a big interest in soccer in Tipp (its behind hurling but way before football or rugby) and that a couple of thousand would watch a county soccer team on a regular basis , people from Clare also have no-one to represent them , and this is the same for many counties .

The main problem I see with this is the amount of Dublin clubs there is , and they would hate to become extinct , but just think of the crowd you could have if all the supporters of Dublin clubs joined together .

The other real problem would be getting the thing started , and getting support would also be hard seeing as its a crazy idea .

I find the idea intriguing , but the more I think about it the more obstacles to it I find .

That can't happen but the EL MUST get teams in every county. It is disgraceful that every county is not repsented. If a team from Tipp joined the league and was capable of pulling in 2,000 a week than it would end up in the premier division pushing the likes of Dublin City down and benefitting the whole league. Every county has to be represented with a team, expand the first division and make it happen.

KdjaCL

Page 17 of Mondays Irish Indo
"distraught Shelbourne Rovers" < actual words.


kdjac

Big Ears

seansouth wrote:

Do you mean 26 + Derry?
.
Yeah, crowd of people killing each other.

Rovers and Bohs would never come together, never mind Shels, Pats, UCD, Dublin City and whoever else.

It'll never happen. It is madness to suggest thet people give up the history associated with all of these clubs.

first im ashamed to have made that mistake , how the hell did I think 28 + 6= 32 , I did mention that Dubliners wouldn't like it , but how many of those people watch the Dublin county football team together ?

gimmick

thejollyrodger wrote:

lets face it, bohs and the village have let us all down time and time again.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Do you actually know what you are on about or do you type the first thoughts that come into your head? Please tell me when Bohs (apart from 2004) and CITY have let the eL down? Again, please tell me because I would REALLY like to know!

A Shels fan saying that other clubs leave the league down in Europe is laughable. One European run and all of a sudden you are Irelands leading light in European competition?

I am also still waiting to see you answer the questions above, if you can.

_blank_

Big Ears wrote:

but how many of those people watch the Dublin county football team together ?

That has absolutely nothing to do with it. It's soccer, not GAA.

There are allegiances to teams that go back generations, and to ask someone to give that up is disrecpectful, IMO. I'm not saying that supporting Shels has been in family for generations, but some of my cousins are Rovers fans, as have their father and grandfather, and to take that away would be an absolute farce.

Fair enough, if other counties want to try to develop teams, then fair enough, but why should Shels be disbanded?

Ronan|Raven

People to get up off their backsides and to go and watch a few games and give it a chance.

thejollyrodger

any ideas of geting rid of hte likes of Shamrock Rovers, Shels is simply crazy !!! Reality check please.. plus.. one super club team in Dublin would make the league to be a complete joke

Töpher

IF people were going to follow a team because of the county relevance, Galway/Derry/Dublin City would have higher attendances.

A GAA style solution would not work. People do not follow their local GAA team because of where they're from - primarily its their love of the sport. They follow their local team because it isn't catered for in Old Trafford.

eirebhoy

thejollyrodger wrote:

WE HAVE TO RAISE OUR CO-EFFICENT and WIN GAMES IN EUROPE

Fúck the coefficients.

Country coefficients are used to see how many places a country gets, what rounds the teams enter, etc.
Club rankings are used just for seedings in each round.

The country rankings of 2004 will be used for this year. Ireland are in 40th place. We would have to move up to 26th place just to get a place in the 2nd qualifying round. Realistically, Shels being seeded they should really be getting into the 2nd round anyway. It will take years for us to get up to 26th place and when we get there it won't make much difference.

The coefficients are not really important atm.

applehunter

1. A joint strategy between the government and the FAI would make a huge difference. The FAI et al must convince the government that there is a viable industry there that will provide employment and funds to the exchequer.

2. Better attendences. Especially in Dublin.

Slash/ED

eirebhoy wrote:

It will take years for us to get up to 26th place and when we get there it won't make much difference.

It'll make the world of difference as you'll be seeded and so face first round opposition with the winner getting into the third round where the minimum you can get is the uefa cup proper.

Big Ears

Slash/ED wrote:

It'll make the world of difference as you'll be seeded and so face first round opposition with the winner getting into the third round where the minimum you can get is the uefa cup proper.

If the league got to 26th then they would get to those stages even if they started in the first qualifying round , otherwise they wouldn't have got to 26th .

eirebhoy

Slash/ED wrote:

It'll make the world of difference as you'll be seeded and so face first round opposition with the winner getting into the third round where the minimum you can get is the uefa cup proper.

I don't quite understand that post but seedings are based on how well that particular club has done in Europe. In the first qualifying round of the CL they use a specific country seeding though. Its all on Bert's site:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/

Slash/ED

eirebhoy wrote:

I don't quite understand that post but seedings are based on how well that particular club has done in Europe. In the first qualifying round of the CL they use a specific country seeding though. Its all on Bert's site:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/

From that all but two of the teams who automatically go into the second round qualifiers are seeded in that draw, so if we ever get to a position where we automatically make it that far you'd hope the teams involved would have a club co-efficent big enough to have them seeded in that draw.

Which is a huge advantage, you avoid the likes of Rosenborg in favour of the teams coming from the first round, so you're clear favourites to make it at least into the third round qualifiers.

SpAcEd OuT

hey just on the subject of this Im bringing a few mates who have never been to an EL match before to the Bohs vs Shels match tomorrow.

Can anyone here tell me of any buses that head out to Dalymount Park from any of these areas
Rathgar/Harolds Cross/Rathmines/Clonskeagh/Terenure/Ranelagh (or any areas near to them)

any replies would be appreciated,thanks.

KdjaCL

Bus into town then taxi tbh


kdjac

Slash/ED

Here's a list of all the buses that goto the ground...

10 | 120 | 19 | 19A | 38 | 38A | 38B | 38C | 39N | 83 |

I've no idea if any of them go through those areas though, but they all goto Phibsboro. The 10 I know starts in Belfield campus and if you goto the city centre goes through O'Connel street and you're never waiting more than five/ten minutes for one.

If it's your first time it's not obvious where to get off though so basically follow the jersies.

SpAcEd OuT

hmmm hopefully the busdriver will have a fair idea if theres no supporters on the bus.

Slash/ED

Which bus will you be getting? If you're on it anytime close to kick off your pratically gaurenteed it'll be covered with supporters.

I'm useless at describing things like this but basically you have to get off at the church in Phibsboro where there's a Y in the road. It's hard to see the stadium as it's behind houses but you should be able to see the floodlights. Ask the bus driver alright but there should be plenty of supporters on the bus.

KdjaCL

Again with the taxi option , one from O Connel Street is €10 to the Dalymount.


kdjac

Pigman II

To spacedout - If you're meeting up in town , best place to get bus is Westmoreland St (http://www.aidan.co.uk/md/IrlDubWestmStBuses3X08.jpg) as you can get 19,19a and 83 buses all at same stop.

The 19 , 19a and 83 literally stop right outside the ground on phibsoro road (main shopping street, you can't miss it!), you'll be less than 100 yards walking distance from the turnstiles when you get off. http://www.laner.utvinternet.com/map.JPG

Fair €1.30, No need for a jo tbh.

BTW that dalymount map is a bit out of date now .. replace the number '134' with '83'

SpAcEd OuT

thanks for the replies lads hopefully were in for a good match tonight.

eirebhoy

Slash/ED wrote:

From that all but two of the teams who automatically go into the second round qualifiers are seeded in that draw, so if we ever get to a position where we automatically make it that far you'd hope the teams involved would have a club co-efficent big enough to have them seeded in that draw.

Which is a huge advantage, you avoid the likes of Rosenborg in favour of the teams coming from the first round, so you're clear favourites to make it at least into the third round qualifiers.

I know that but it will take years for the EL to get up the 26th place anyway. If we're talking about improving the league the coefficients shouldn't a main priority atm.

Slash/ED

eirebhoy wrote:

I know that but it will take years for the EL to get up the 26th place anyway. If we're talking about improving the league the coefficients shouldn't a main priority atm.

Results in Europe are what will get people interested in the league though.

I agree the co-efficents aren't the top priority, media exposure is, but they're still very very important. We're atm seeded in the UEFA cup and CL first rounds, at the very least we have to keep that.

thejollyrodger

I think teams in Europe are what really ads respect to the E.L. The media takes more intrest and so does the general public.

Realistically the best thing Shels can do is get to the third round CL Qualifer, play someone like Man Utd - lose and beat the team for the UEFA Cup qualifier and get into group stages.

If we were doing that each season (pie in the sky at the mo') the league would really be going places.

Were far more likely to increase co-efficents with one or possibly two clubs in the group stages. Grounds would really be properly developed, crowds would go up, so would TV coverage, sponsorship deals..

But breaking into the UEFA CUP even would be pretty tough

Big Ears

thejollyrodger wrote:

I think teams in Europe are what really ads respect to the E.L. The media takes more intrest and so does the general public.

Realistically the best thing Shels can do is get to the third round CL Qualifer, play someone like Man Utd - lose and beat the team for the UEFA Cup qualifier and get into group stages.

If we were doing that each season (pie in the sky at the mo') the league would really be going places.

Were far more likely to increase co-efficents with one or possibly two clubs in the group stages. Grounds would really be properly developed, crowds would go up, so would TV coverage, sponsorship deals..

But breaking into the UEFA CUP even would be pretty tough

But of course we would hope Cork got a good run in Europe aswell as we don't want a Norweigen league , and maybe Drogheda and Bohs (if they stay the next best teams) to do well also .

thejollyrodger

Yeah, as much as I support Shels, I would hate to turn into another Rosenburg type league. Cork City would act as a great counter balance for Shels and the whole league. Two clubs in Europe would be the dogs bollócks.

Im not so sure about Shels this season tbh. We have some great names but it isnt really coming together yet. The CLQ is in July.. not that far away.

Töpher

12/13 July is the 1st leg of QR1.
Would wanna be in shape by then!

Corks 1st Uefa QR1 leg should be 14 July.

redspider

Here are some of my thoughts on whats wrong with the League Of Ireland (LOI) and some proposed remedies.

The LOI currently consists of 2 divisions with a premiership of 12 teams. The current table is as follows:

P W D L F A Pts
Cork City 12 8 3 1 20 6 27
Derry City 12 7 2 3 15 8 23
Shelbourne 12 6 4 2 18 8 22
Drogheda U 12 5 5 2 15 12 20
Bohemians 12 5 4 3 13 12 19
Longford Tn 12 5 2 5 11 10 17
Bray Wands 12 4 2 6 15 20 14
Waterford U 12 4 2 6 10 15 14
St Pat's 12 3 4 5 14 16 13
UCD 12 2 5 5 7 11 11
Finn Harps 12 1 2 9 4 18 5
Shamrock R 12 2 5 5 12 18 3

The recent winners, 2nd and 3rd place teams have been:
2004 Shelbourne, Cork City, Bohemians
2003 Shelbourne, Bohemians, Cork City
2002/03 Bohemians, Shelbourne, Shamrock Rovers
2002 Shelbourne, Shamrock Rovers, St. Patricks Athletic
2001 Bohemians, Shelbourne, Cork City
2000 Shelbourne, Cork City, Bohemians
1999 St. Patricks Athletic, Cork City, Shelbourne
1998 St. Patricks Athletic, Shelbourne, Cork City
1997 Derry, Bohemians, Shelbourne
1996 St. Patricks Athletic, Bohemians, Sligo Rovers

On that evidence, it would seem like a vibrant competitive league. However, at times the football quality on display is dire and is of a very low level, much worse than the maligned league in Scotland (SPL) with the likes of Celtic, Rangers, Hearts, Hibernians and Aberdeen.

So, what are the problems:

LOI competes with other sports for attention and interest from fans and the media, such as GAA, and also English soccer (EPL). Whilst the latter has always been there and will remain so, due to its proximity, media overlap/coverage, common language, etc, GAA is sufficiently different to be seen as a direct competitor. The LOI must live to co-operate with the English soccer system. The EPL is the biggest in the world (source: Deloitte) so there is no way to compete with it head on. Any structure of the LOI must fit in with EPL. Because of the huge popularity of GAA in Ireland, something that we should be proud of, it is best of the LOI is structured in such a way as to not compete with it head to head. GAA is a cultural driven sport, but interest is confined to the summer months by and large.

In a small country, and a city of the size of Dublin, there are only so many teams that can be supported to a high degree. There are just too many clubs in Dublin. Its true that many of them have a history in the sport in this country over the years. The most successful one, Shamrock Rovers is in dire straights after selling its ground Milltown in the 1980’s and has financial problems.



There is a lack of solid media interest in the sport. This is not necessarily a fault of the media. They will follow what people are interested in usually. However, in a developmental stage, media can have a huge factor.

All young talent that is produced in the school/youth football systems, which seems to be vibrant and not a problem, result in placement in the EPL or other divisions in England. This “talent drain” probably cant be stopped, but systems could be setup to work closer with the EPL teams so that the unused youths are not wasted. Several reports have been conducted over the last few years and the drop out rate of “apprentices” has been something like 90%. Many of these players give up football altogether. This is a lot of untapped potential.

The FAI do not seem to put half as much emphasis on the LOI as the International matches. They run them as unconnected events.


Solutions:
+ the LOI needs to revert to a league that plays in the winter, which is what the rest of Europe is doing bar those countries that have inclement winter conditions such as Russia. This also means that the LOI doesn’t have to compete directly with the GAA, not only for fans but also for media and sponsorship reasons.

+ Media: it is necessary to bring in the national government owned and sponsored broadcaster (RTE) to help develop the sport with their coverage. The flagship cup competition, the FAI Cup, receives very little build up and coverage. It should be a prime-time sporting event, held on a regular day, perhaps the Sunday always after the English FA Cup Final. Tickets should be priced to encourage large crowds attending.

+ It would be better if Dublin had fewer clubs, perhaps 3 clubs, with other top clubs coming from the larger cities of Cork, Galway, Waterford, Derry and perhaps Sligo. Its not where these clubs are located that’s of importance, but what is important is that these clubs can get to a sufficient size. Concentration of resources is the name of the game. In the business world, its called mergers. Whilst that is difficult in footballing terms, fewer cubs in Dublin are essential.

+ the tope league could be reduced to 10 teams, playing each other 4 times, playing 36 games encouraging plenty of big games with the best teams on show.

+ the type of play needs to be made much more entertaining. Whether this is done via a radical approach in changing the way points are awarded (the radical 5-4-3-2-1 pts system was tried in the 1980’s I recall), giving pts for goals, or making it mandatory that all players go to Brazil to the Copacaana for at least 2 months training in Samba soccer, very radical decisions are needed to make it more entertaining. Football is business/entertainment/sport all rolled up into one, but for the LOI to compete with the EPL and the SPL, on its way to becoming bigger, its needs ways to attract viewers, fans, etc. People that will watch the EPL will also watch the LOI if it is entertaining.

+ the TV broadcasts need to be shown each week and at a time that doesn’t clash with any sport. Fri night is not a good night as many punters are heading out after a hard week at work. Sunday could be an option but it should not clash with EPL live transmissions. Perhaps Sat at 15:00, or else early on a Sat at 17:00, after the EPL games. With the EPL games being shown on a wider and wider time window, getting a suitable time wont be easy. Mon evening seems to be free at the moment.

+ The LOI could be ran as a separate organisation to the FAI. That may help get some momentum into LOI. It would be ideal if the FAI supported the LOI, for example, mandating that several LOI players are picked in the international squads and get picked on the teams and at least some appreciable time on the pitch. Granted, that may affect our international results, but if it can be done prudently, it would help the LOI.


I am not an authority on the LOI, I don’t know all of its problems, I haven’t mentioned anything about the financial situation, so I don’t know all the answers. Above is what I believe are some solutions to some of the problems that will make the LOI a better standard.

I think we all have seen enough 0-0 draws over the last decade or so to realise that something has to be done about it. I fear though that the people currently involved in the sport in Ireland do not see the big picture and are more or less happy with the situation. There are a lot of “junior soccer” people involved, and I think that a radical approach is whats needed to completely revamp the sport here and to try to catch up with the SPL. I dont advocate that the SPL model is ideal, two large teams from one city dominating success for decades. A healthier situation would be to have at least three top teams (like Holland, Portugal) and preferably 4. But we need to start somewhere, and concentration is what is needed.


Redspider

Slash/ED

redspider wrote:

Solutions:
+ the LOI needs to revert to a league that plays in the winter, which is what the rest of Europe is doing bar those countries that have inclement winter conditions such as Russia. This also means that the LOI doesn’t have to compete directly with the GAA, not only for fans but also for media and sponsorship reasons.

I disagree, results in Europe have improved since the change, and that imo is the main way to build interest in the league. It is the only way to measure the standard and get people interested.

+ Media: it is necessary to bring in the national government owned and sponsored broadcaster (RTE) to help develop the sport with their coverage. The flagship cup competition, the FAI Cup, receives very little build up and coverage. It should be a prime-time sporting event, held on a regular day, perhaps the Sunday always after the English FA Cup Final. Tickets should be priced to encourage large crowds attending.

Agreed, but people have been saying this for decades, when are RTE going to get off their arses and give the league proper coverage?

+ It would be better if Dublin had fewer clubs, perhaps 3 clubs, with other top clubs coming from the larger cities of Cork, Galway, Waterford, Derry and perhaps Sligo. Its not where these clubs are located that’s of importance, but what is important is that these clubs can get to a sufficient size. Concentration of resources is the name of the game. In the business world, its called mergers. Whilst that is difficult in footballing terms, fewer cubs in Dublin are essential.[.quote]

Well, effectively Dublin has four 'big' teams, Shels, Rovers, Pats and Bohs. UCD and Dublin City get very small support compared to the rest, Dublin is big enough to sustain four good teams.

+ the tope league could be reduced to 10 teams, playing each other 4 times, playing 36 games encouraging plenty of big games with the best teams on show.

It's a better system than the retarded 12 team play each other 3 times system we have now, but my prefrence is a 16 team premier all ireland league. The playing each other 4 times does result in more big games, but it also lessens the prestige of these big games.

+ the type of play needs to be made much more entertaining. Whether this is done via a radical approach in changing the way points are awarded (the radical 5-4-3-2-1 pts system was tried in the 1980’s I recall), giving pts for goals, or making it mandatory that all players go to Brazil to the Copacaana for at least 2 months training in Samba soccer, very radical decisions are needed to make it more entertaining. Football is business/entertainment/sport all rolled up into one, but for the LOI to compete with the EPL and the SPL, on its way to becoming bigger, its needs ways to attract viewers, fans, etc. People that will watch the EPL will also watch the LOI if it is entertaining.

While you can argue with the standard of play, the games in the EL are as exciting as any ones you'd find anywhere else imo, it's simply people are completley ignorant to this. I'd pay good money just to watch certain players in this league like Ndo, Hoolahan, McCourt, O'Callaghan, Kearney, Fahy, Kelly, Harkin and many others. The matches can also be brilliant, the top of the table clashes between Shels and Bohs and Shels and Pats were more often than not absolutley superb games.

+ the TV broadcasts need to be shown each week and at a time that doesn’t clash with any sport. Fri night is not a good night as many punters are heading out after a hard week at work. Sunday could be an option but it should not clash with EPL live transmissions. Perhaps Sat at 15:00, or else early on a Sat at 17:00, after the EPL games. With the EPL games being shown on a wider and wider time window, getting a suitable time wont be easy. Mon evening seems to be free at the moment.

Mondays are a big no no. Crowds suffer for many reasons. Firstly away fans obviously find it much harder to get to matches, and work interferes with home fans as well. They're just no good. Finding a time over the weekend that doesn't interfere with the dominating english premiership is next to impossible, espically now RTE are showing saturday 3pm games, but you're right, TV coverage is essential. Luckily this has improved a hell of alot for this season in terms of games on the TV. What we really need is a highlights show not shoddily produced and shoved in a graveyard timeslot.

+ The LOI could be ran as a separate organisation to the FAI. That may help get some momentum into LOI. It would be ideal if the FAI supported the LOI, for example, mandating that several LOI players are picked in the international squads and get picked on the teams and at least some appreciable time on the pitch. Granted, that may affect our international results, but if it can be done prudently, it would help the LOI.

It already is, there's talk of a complete merger between the LOI and FAI.

The FAI shouldn't mandate certain players have to be picked however if our manager had any bottle and could look beyond the reserve lower leagues in England certain players would be picked on merit anyway.

I think we all have seen enough 0-0 draws over the last decade or so to realise that something has to be done about it. I fear though that the people currently involved in the sport in Ireland do not see the big picture and are more or less happy with the situation. There are a lot of “junior soccer” people involved, and I think that a radical approach is whats needed to completely revamp the sport here and to try to catch up with the SPL. I dont advocate that the SPL model is ideal, two large teams from one city dominating success for decades. A healthier situation would be to have at least three top teams (like Holland, Portugal) and preferably 4. But we need to start somewhere, and concentration is what is needed.

I really don't think EL matches are more boring or have less goals than other leagues abroad.

What Irish football needs is to stop sending every last decent youngster abroad. Now I accept that the Duff and Keanes of this world will be chased by everyone, but the lesser players should stay at home to begin with. We need to get proper facilities here for developing youngsters and have them break into LOI sides first, then move abroad, so if they do leave we can get money coming back into the domestic game here for them. It didn't do argubley our two greatest ever players any harm in McGrath and Keane. We need imo to look at the french model of getting big football academys set up here, as well as helping the league if our young talent breaks through here first before going abroad or staying on, it would help the international team if we could provide top class youth facilities here. That's something the FAI should be concerned with.

hoolio

Okay just some of my own random incoherent thoughts/experiences:

First off i'm from Kerry and in Kerry and in the many other counties like it the Eircom league is a detached,almost alien thing, that is just as foreign in practice as the English leagues.No one gives a damn about it,and rightfully so,as there is no local (or even semi-local) support for it.I mean honestly - should i support Cork because they are probably the geographically cloest team to where i grew up? Or should i support the team closest to where i currently live, or work, or study? Even though I have absolutely no connection to any of them.

Radical action is needed but i've got to agree that it would probably be near impossible to implement anything drastic,but you really need to think long term, i mean in ten,twenty and thirty years time where will the EPL be? And the way things are going i think it will be pretty much exactly the same. People want the league to improve but won't sacrifice anything.

No matter what people say It is simply not a case of 'Oh get people to come to watch it more it will all be great'. I don't agree with the 'product' model really,although there are aspects of marketing needed obviously. What i really think it you need to start generating feeling and real support for a team and that starts young. Season ticket holders dont buy them for 'the product'. Only when local people really care for the team will it grow, and then maybe you can bring in the neutrals more. True week in week out supporters are the bread and butter of a football club,especilly at this level. Clubs need to be more visible in their areas, be more involved with local youth FC's, for example by sending coaches to train them periodically,sending a few senior players to have a kick about with the kids,giving free tickets to venues etc.



Okay now to abandon all reality and say what i would ideally like to happen:

- Dissolve the current league, set up 4 provincial ones instead (Munster,Leinster,Connaught,Ulster) and one Premier League.
- In counties with no club found one.So that every county would have at least one team. eg. Mayo would be represented by 'Mayo AFC' or whatever, but Dublin wouldnt need any new teams and could keep all its teams.
- The Premier League would have 16 teams - four from each province, although those numbers could be adjusted to give more to leinster where there are more teams etc.
- The top teams from each provincial league win entry into the Premier one,the bottom ones from the premier league get relegated back down.
- In more rural counties get young guys to join their local clubs (of which there are plenty countrywide), and the best from those clubs would get called up to the county side (similar to GAA tbh) to compete in the provincial league.

Okay now i know there are plenty of flaws in that plan.One big one that would piss people off being that inevitably the leagues would settle down some clubs staying up and others bouncing up and down and some jsut staying down but i mean thats what needs to be happen for any progress if you ask me.

Take Dublin for example,there are far too many teams competing at the same level. Some clubs need to grow,expand and suck up alot of the support and unfortunatley some will need to stay small,as feeder clubs, There is no way in hell the league is going to get much better with Shelbourne,Bohemians,St Pats, Shamrock Rovers, UCD, Dublin City etc all wanting to keep up with each other. An elite of two or three needs to emerge IMO which would cause problems - seeing as most teams are pretty much at the same level at the moment so no Shels fan would be happy for Bohs to get bigger and them not to and vice versa. Fans would say 'Why do they deserve to have a big ground and not us?' but unfortunaley thats life, and people need to accept that they cant all become big clubs.

Think of all the clubs in London - no one (not even begrudging Spurs fans) would deny Arsenal/Chelsea are the biggest/best clubs, even though Spurs/Palace/Fulham/West Han etc are all decent clubs,they just can't all be big.And considering the population of somewhere like London comapred to Dublin it's easy to see that there is already a limit on how big how many of them could get.



And regarding young players - was the last player to get capped who started his career playing in Ireland Roy Keane?(Not counting Glen Crowe/Jason Byrne here).Would he also be the last one to have gone on to play Preimiership football? I can't think of any others off the top of my head and if thats true (and i'm very open to correction) that a bit of a sad state of affairs.Oh and i know Daryl Murphy will potentially be playing in the Premiership next season but who knows how that will turn out, i'm talking players who had a regular place nailed down and who were good Premiership players really.

thejollyrodger

what is the point in posting utter fantasy ??

I think some more sensible ideas should be adopted. Like there is no way they are going to disolve the Eircom League and set up some regional league.

Realistically, the EL needs to merge with the league up north. 20 teams in the top division and the rest in a lower division(s).

Thats another two big teams to challange Shels CCFC and Bohs. Then there would be a sizeable amount of clubs with full time outfits. That coupled with the summer league should increase the quality of football.

The only thing that really changes a league is MONEY, we need lots of cash to develop the game, buy in better players and get further in Europe. The general public will only ever really follow irish club soccer in massive numbers when we have a few clubs playing in Europe each year.

The Setanta cup should be extened to Wales and Scotland should be ever have 1 all ireland league. Say 4th and 5th place in Scotland and 2nd and 3rd in Wales (or whatever is fair).

Merger with the FAI. The FAI need take over the running of the EL. I know they are a crowd of muppets but at least they are held accountable by the government. They can take care off all the administration side of things properly.
One type of contract that all EL's use. The recent debacle with quality players leaving for England for peanuts is a disgrace !! It has to stop.

Slash/ED

Yeah the talk of new set ups is fantasy, but the point about not every county having a team is a good one. Expand the first division and get new teams in so every county is represented, no matter how poor these teams would be, how bad their facilities would be or how little support they would get initially at least there's potential there, and everyone in the country who wants to support their local club would have that oppurtunity.

Big Ears

Slash/ED wrote:

Yeah the talk of new set ups is fantasy, but the point about not every county having a team is a good one. Expand the first division and get new teams in so every county is represented, no matter how poor these teams would be, how bad their facilities would be or how little support they would get initially at least there's potential there, and everyone in the country who wants to support their local club would have that oppurtunity.

I think this and thejollyrodger's plan is the way forward , it is the only realistic way to improve vastly and make domestic soccer a big part of sports in this country .

gimmick

thejollyrodger wrote:

Realistically, the EL needs to merge with the league up north. 20 teams in the top division and the rest in a lower division(s).

While I think thats nice in theory, and have had the discussion with people over and over. But there was one thing which no-one was able to provide a decent solution for, and thats the promotion relegation issue.

If there was one 2nd division fine, buit could that survive with the travel involved for teams whose gates are very very poor?

Otherwise you are looking at 2 regional division and thats where the confusion begins.

---

As for dissolving the league and franchises etc? Ive heard better ideas from rugby fans!

Slash/ED

gimmick wrote:

Otherwise you are looking at 2 regional division and thats where the confusion begins.

Have regionalised lower leagues regionalised on geographic grounds not on the border, promotion/relegation than works like any other regionalised league.

eirebhoy

gimmick wrote:

While I think thats nice in theory, and have had the discussion with people over and over. But there was one thing which no-one was able to provide a decent solution for, and thats the promotion relegation issue.

How is it worked out when teams are relegated from the Conference to Conference North and South? I think 3 teams are just relegated and it doesn't matter if those 3 teams are from the same constituency, they are put into their appropriate leagues.

redspider

Slash/ED> I disagree, results in Europe have improved since the change, and that imo is the main way to build interest in the league. It is the only way to measure the standard and get people interested.

Yes, Europe is one way of measuring the standard, but I dont think that playing in the summer is the right way to improve that standard. LOI needs fans. GAA takes fans away. They compete. Its best for LOI to play when GAA is not in its fervour. I think the LOI will revert back to a winter league at some point.


> when are RTE going to get off their arses and give the league proper coverage?

The Depts for Sport and Communiations need to be lobbied. RTE get 130m odd from the government each year. Keep some of this, say 30m, off the table unless they guarantee showing of Irish sport, including GAA and Soccer. Regular live matches will help all round, but the games have to be at decent times, not this:
Bohemians V KAA Ghent
Saturday 18th June, 7pm, Dalymount Par


> Well, effectively Dublin has four 'big' teams, Shels, Rovers, Pats and Bohs. UCD and Dublin City get very small support compared to the rest, Dublin is big enough to sustain four good teams.

I dont think Dublin is big enough to sustain 4 big teams. Get rid of UCD and Dublin City (the old Home Farm), or play a pre-qualifier for the league so that only 4 teams get in. Include Bray and Kildare in that group. Then add 6 teams from around the country. Thats the premier league. Concentration will help.

> It's a better system than the retarded 12 team play each other 3 times system we have now

The current system is a problem.


> While you can argue with the standard of play, the games in the EL are as exciting as any ones you'd find anywhere else imo, it's simply people are completley ignorant to this.

No, the excitement levels at times are very poor. The goals are sloppy. The defences can be woeful. It looks amateurish. In terms of competing for viewers and eyes, the football needs to be of a very high standard. Really entertaining stuff. Think Samba soccer, overheads, nutmegs, back heels, step-overs, etc. Nauseating to many, but for kids, this is it. Games should be 5-3, not 1-0's or 2-0's. The LOI has to think about entertainment, not that its ok if games are hard fought. There are too many Roddy effin Collins around imo. He is a boxer, not a football player. Currently its a dog eat dog kicking match at times. The likes of Linfield and Glentoran can beat the republic teams.


> The matches can also be brilliant, the top of the table clashes between Shels and Bohs and Shels and Pats were more often than not absolutley superb games.

I have seen a few and some have been ok. But are they good enough to attract hordes of followers? The proof of the pudding is in the eating, and in this case they aren't entertaining enough to date. We both agree that it is RTE's fault for not promoting it. But the play has to improve. If it does, RTE will come to the sport because of the interest rather than being forced to go. Its a chicken and egg problem.


> Mondays are a big no no. Crowds suffer for many reasons. Firstly away fans obviously find it much harder to get to matches, and work interferes with home fans as well. They're just no good. Finding a time over the weekend that doesn't interfere with the dominating english premiership is next to impossible, espically now RTE are showing saturday 3pm games, but you're right, TV coverage is essential. Luckily this has improved a hell of alot for this season in terms of games on the TV. What we really need is a highlights show not shoddily produced and shoved in a graveyard timeslot.


Yes, a highlights show would be good, say at 7:00 or 8:00 on a Sunday.



> there's talk of a complete merger between the LOI and FAI.

I wasnt quite sure of the details of who was doing what. I dont know what was in the recommendations of the Genesis report. Perhaps there are already plans afoot to change and improve things in terms of organisation. In most countries there is one football association and that seems to work well.

> The FAI shouldn't mandate certain players have to be picked however if our manager had any bottle and could look beyond the reserve lower leagues in England certain players would be picked on merit anyway.

I agree that its interference, but in terms of the development of the LOI, a strong word should be put in the ear of the manager to ensure they select at least as couple of players in the squad.


> What Irish football needs is to stop sending every last decent youngster abroad. Now I accept that the Duff and Keanes of this world will be chased by everyone, but the lesser players should stay at home to begin with. We need to get proper facilities here for developing youngsters and have them break into LOI sides first, then move abroad, so if they do leave we can get money coming back into the domestic game here for them. It didn't do argubley our two greatest ever players any harm in McGrath and Keane. We need imo to look at the french model of getting big football academys set up here, as well as helping the league if our young talent breaks through here first before going abroad or staying on, it would help the international team if we could provide top class youth facilities here. That's something the FAI should be concerned with.

The youth situation is always going to be difficult with the English league on our doorsteps. There is a drop-off in Irish youngsters joining the big clubs for their development stages, perhaps because the big clubs are using fewer youngsters and perhaps because they are going more international in their search. eg: Arsenal. An academy of sorts could be of some use but these tend to have poor results at times, such as the England one. The best way to keep the youth is to have an attractive league. They will always go away. Perhaps feeder systems into the English clubs is doable. There was the Home Farm Everton experiment about 10 years ago.

Redspider

Big Ears

A LOI(irish players only) select 11 should play everytime the internationl side is playing , against countries with a similar league strength .

This would help prepare the top LOI players to become internationals .

redspider

Here is an example of whats wrong with Irish soccer:

Cork squeeze past Galway in Cup replay
Tuesday, 14 June 2005 7:38

A second-half controversial John O'Flynn penalty was enough to give the Leesiders victory

Premier Division league leaders Cork City are through to round three of the Carlsberg FAI Cup, but they had to work hard for their victory against a battling Galway side in the second round replay in front of 3,500 spectators at Turners Cross.

The crucial goal came from the penalty spot with 20 minutes remaining when Cork referee Alan Kelly awarded the homeside the spot kick for a foul on George O'Callaghan in the area.



So, a match was played on a Monday night, it was hard fought 1-0 win, the only goal from a disputed penalty. The players were petulent and one got sent off. 3,500 turned up, not 100% sure what they paid but probably 15 eur. Thats whats wrong with the sport.

People make claims that the sport needs more money. Money will come if the sport is attractive and entertainment. I realise that Galway have hired Nick Leeson, and perhaps he personally is not the solution, he might need them more than they need him, but the LOI needs a radical shake-up in terms of what the "product" (I hate that word too) is, and to transform that "product" into a spectacle and entertainment that people will want to go to.

Currently, LOI clubs seems bent on extracting as much cash from the current set of loyal fans, many of whom are working class, or even of a social-housing background.

Shelbourne winning a few games in Europe against teams from Azerbijzan wont changes things I'm afraid.

Respider

_blank_

Of course the beloved Premiership, Serie A or La Liga has never seen a match which was decided on a dodgy penalty.

:rolleyes:

applehunter

redspider wrote:

Here is an example of whats wrong with Irish soccer:

Cork squeeze past Galway in Cup replay
Tuesday, 14 June 2005 7:38

A second-half controversial John O'Flynn penalty was enough to give the Leesiders victory

Premier Division league leaders Cork City are through to round three of the Carlsberg FAI Cup, but they had to work hard for their victory against a battling Galway side in the second round replay in front of 3,500 spectators at Turners Cross.

The crucial goal came from the penalty spot with 20 minutes remaining when Cork referee Alan Kelly awarded the homeside the spot kick for a foul on George O'Callaghan in the area.



So, a match was played on a Monday night, it was hard fought 1-0 win, the only goal from a disputed penalty. The players were petulent and one got sent off. 3,500 turned up, not 100% sure what they paid but probably 15 eur. Thats whats wrong with the sport.

People make claims that the sport needs more money. Money will come if the sport is attractive and entertainment. I realise that Galway have hired Nick Leeson, and perhaps he personally is not the solution, he might need them more than they need him, but the LOI needs a radical shake-up in terms of what the "product" (I hate that word too) is, and to transform that "product" into a spectacle and entertainment that people will want to go to.

Currently, LOI clubs seems bent on extracting as much cash from the current set of loyal fans, many of whom are working class, or even of a social-housing background.

Shelbourne winning a few games in Europe against teams from Azerbijzan wont changes things I'm afraid.

Respider

What team is from Azerbyjan?

I was at the said match last night. It cost €13 for myself and only €5 for my younger sister. Well worth it.

Looking around the place there was loads of young teens and kids. Now they are only paying €5. They are doing something constructive with their time, as apposed to hanging around.

On Friday night in Terryland it cost only €3 for kids to get in. Thats amazing value. You would pay more to get into a County Championship game.

3,500 was a good crowd for a Monday night. Good cup game IMO whatever an RTE report might say.

Slash/ED

redspider wrote:

Here is an example of whats wrong with Irish soccer:

Cork squeeze past Galway in Cup replay
Tuesday, 14 June 2005 7:38

A second-half controversial John O'Flynn penalty was enough to give the Leesiders victory

Premier Division league leaders Cork City are through to round three of the Carlsberg FAI Cup, but they had to work hard for their victory against a battling Galway side in the second round replay in front of 3,500 spectators at Turners Cross.

The crucial goal came from the penalty spot with 20 minutes remaining when Cork referee Alan Kelly awarded the homeside the spot kick for a foul on George O'Callaghan in the area.



So, a match was played on a Monday night, it was hard fought 1-0 win, the only goal from a disputed penalty. The players were petulent and one got sent off. 3,500 turned up, not 100% sure what they paid but probably 15 eur. Thats whats wrong with the sport.

People make claims that the sport needs more money. Money will come if the sport is attractive and entertainment. I realise that Galway have hired Nick Leeson, and perhaps he personally is not the solution, he might need them more than they need him, but the LOI needs a radical shake-up in terms of what the "product" (I hate that word too) is, and to transform that "product" into a spectacle and entertainment that people will want to go to.

Currently, LOI clubs seems bent on extracting as much cash from the current set of loyal fans, many of whom are working class, or even of a social-housing background.

Shelbourne winning a few games in Europe against teams from Azerbijzan wont changes things I'm afraid.

Respider

I really don't see your point. Iimagine if it was England, Arsenal draw Stoke City or some other lower first division side, draw with them away and beat them by a dodgy penalty at home. That would be considered a great story and the true romance of the cup that the poor first division side came so close to causing a major upset against the top premiership side.

_blank_

applehunter wrote:

What team is from Azerbyjan?

Netftchi Baku

redspider

applehunter wrote:

I was at the said match last night. It cost €13 for myself and only €5 for my younger sister. Well worth it. Looking around the place there was loads of young teens and kids. Now they are only paying €5. They are doing something constructive with their time, as apposed to hanging around. On Friday night in Terryland it cost only €3 for kids to get in. Thats amazing value. You would pay more to get into a County Championship game. 3,500 was a good crowd for a Monday night. Good cup game IMO whatever an RTE report might say.

Good to hear you were at the game. However, 13 eur is a bit much. I think for adults it should be something like eur 5 (IF they want to encourage people to go) and something like eur 2 for kids (12 and under). The eur 3 you mention sounds good and a step in the right direction.


> Well worth it

The problem is that 1000's of people didnt think it was, for the entertainment thats on offer. And there is no-one raving on the media about how good it was. They are more interested in Finnan and van Persie getting arrested than in Cork v Galway.

I'm not saying I have the answers, but the mentioned match is an example of the problems.

Redspider

redspider

Slash/ED wrote:

I really don't see your point. Iimagine if it was England, Arsenal draw Stoke City or some other lower first division side, draw with them away and beat them by a dodgy penalty at home. That would be considered a great story and the true romance of the cup that the poor first division side came so close to causing a major upset against the top premiership side.

Well, perhaps the reason that you dont see my point is part of the problem. If people that support the LOI avidly cant see its deficiencies, and if people in the LOI itself also cant see them, then it wont improve. I understand the point you are making, that a 1-0 (dodgy penalty game) can be exciting and entertaining. But was the Cork/Galway match exciting? I didnt see it, I wasnt at it, it wasnt on TV, unless TV3 showed it at 11:30 or so, and the only write-up I bothered to look up on RTE had it down as a hard-fought match. No incentive there for the football fan to become interested.

We also just have to look at the postings on boards.ie today. There are threads about Finnan and van Persie getting arrested. There was no thread about Cork and Galway.

The LOI has a long way to go, it is where it is, thats all I'm saying. I have nothng against it and I think it could be a lot better. But in recent years, its development, if anything is going backwards.

redspider

gimmick

^^^ Nonsense. Utter nonsense. You have not made one valid point.

€5 admission for adult to an eL game? Try that and the league will die in weeks. €13 is not expensive, when you consider most Divison 3 teams in the UK are at least stg£16!

thejollyrodger

€13 is a bargin !!

Töpher

thejollyrodger wrote:

€13 is a bargin !!

Yups! And student season tickets are the biggest bargain of them all! €100!! w00t w00t!

Seaneh

por wrote:

Ok this is what you do.
1. Wind up the league as it currently exists
2. Set up a league 10 franchises (I know it’s a dirty word in soccer) based on regions. i.e. a Team in Derry, Sligo, Galway, Limerick, Cork, Waterford, Athlone and 3 in Dublin, 1 North, 1 South, 1 West.
3. All the teams would have ‘minor league’ or feeder teams in neighbouring large towns to develop their youth. These teams would play in a league against each other
4. No promotion or relegation.
5. Effective marketing including TV, Radio coverage.
I know this will piss off the Dubs but right now the EL is very much a Dublin\East product right now, and with the obvious exception of Cork city no teams form outside the pale has done anything in 20 years.
It’s radical but if the EL stays the way it is no one outside it’s traditional teams in Dublin will be interested.

This makes sense.
I'd also add that there needs to be an all ireland league.
The Irish league is much more supported than the eircom league and as proved by the setanta cup the teams are (despite being almost totally amature) just as good if not better than eircom league teames.

maybe there could be two regional leagues of 8 teams with the top two team sfrom each region going into a knock out type thing, sort of like the NBA, that way there is always a decaint standard of football rather than monahgan vs kildare county boring people to death.

point number 2 makes perfect sense, there are too many dublin clubs and not enough people giving a toss.