How to Improve the Eircom League?

applehunter

redspider wrote:

The LOI has a long way to go, it is where it is, thats all I'm saying. I have nothng against it and I think it could be a lot better. But in recent years, its development, if anything is going backwards.

Surely in the past 5 years the league has made more progress than in the previous 20. Look at the progress Bohs and Shels have made on and off the pitch recently.

Not to mention Cork

Big Ears

applehunter wrote:

Surely in the past 5 years the league has made more progress than in the previous 20. Look at the progress Bohs and Shels have made on and off the pitch recently.

Not to mention Cork

yup it certainly has , no offence to redspider but that just seemed a bit of an uneducated statement . 5 years ago Shels would have been losing to the Maltese Champions ( ) , now they have beaten a side as good as hadjuk split .

gimmick

Oh, where to start on this pile of crap.

Seaneh wrote:

This makes sense.

No it doesnt. At best, its pointless complication, at worst its retarded.

Seaneh wrote:

I'd also add that there needs to be an all ireland league.

Why?

Seaneh wrote:

The Irish league is much more supported than the eircom league and as proved by the setanta cup the teams are (despite being almost totally amature) just as good if not better than eircom league teames.

How many setanta cup games were you at/watched sir? Even the most ardent Linfield fan will say that they 'got lucky' against Shels. Shels/City/Drogs/Bohs/Longford are streets ahead of every NI team. The major difference between teams in this years Setanta cup was fitness. One set were coming toward the end of their season, the other just starting theirs. Having watched a few games, it was abundantly clear that the eL teams were technically better that the NI teams. Ports were haunted that Shels didnt take them seriously enough in Tolka, and had their keeper to thank for beating City at Turners X, as he pulled off a number of world class saves.

And are you sure that the NI League is better supported than the eL? Id like to see your figures proving this. The last time I checked, the NI league is on its knees, and needs a merger with the eL more than the eL would need such. or did you just assume this?

Seaneh wrote:

maybe there could be two regional leagues of 8 teams with the top two team sfrom each region going into a knock out type thing, sort of like the NBA, that way there is always a decaint standard of football rather than monahgan vs kildare county boring people to death.

And who would make up the regions? How would promotion and relegation be sorted? Have you seen Kildare Vs Monaghan in recent seasons? In fact have you been to any eL 1st division games?

Seaneh wrote:

point number 2 makes perfect sense, there are too many dublin clubs and not enough people giving a toss.

Ah, this overused soundbite. The reason why there are so many Dublin teams is because they are better than the first division clubs. Unless you stop a team being promoted, and decide a few should be relegated on the basis of geography, there is nada can be done.

Come to think of it, does anyone in the UK moan that there are too many London clubs in the Premiership? We have Arsenal, Fulham, Spurs, Chelsea, Charlton, West Ham, almost 1/3 of the total. Is that bad for English football? Is it f*ck?

The reason people dont give a toss is because many (and Im not accusing anyone here) have never been to an eL game, or maybe went to one, and have decided its crap on the basis of one match/hearing from someone that its rubbish.

Another reason is becuase these people arent actually football fans, but telly watchers! You would swear there was never a poor game in the EPL/La Liga etc.

And another reason, which I find freakin HI-larious

redspider wrote:

However, 13 eur is a bit much

yet, this guy probably has no problenm whatsoever heading down the pub, for Liverpool Vs Crystal Palace spending €20 on pints and/or going on a package deal to Parkhead costing €500.



[/rant]

Slash/ED

redspider wrote:

The LOI has a long way to go, it is where it is, thats all I'm saying. I have nothng against it and I think it could be a lot better. But in recent years, its development, if anything is going backwards.

I really would want to know what exactly you mean by that. The number of internationals in the league has increased, the quality has increased, results in europe have improved manyfold and the TV coverage of this season blows what we had then, ie nothing, out of the water. The money for winning the league has increased by more than x10, the Setanta cup has added hundreds of thousands as well, more teams have gone fully pro or are employing more and more fully pro players and we're attracting a higher class of player from abroad. If that's backwards than we need to continue in reverse...

Seaneh

gimmick wrote:

Oh, where to start on this pile of crap.



No it doesnt. At best, its pointless complication, at worst its retarded.



Why?



How many setanta cup games were you at/watched sir? Even the most ardent Linfield fan will say that they 'got lucky' against Shels. Shels/City/Drogs/Bohs/Longford are streets ahead of every NI team. The major difference between teams in this years Setanta cup was fitness. One set were coming toward the end of their season, the other just starting theirs. Having watched a few games, it was abundantly clear that the eL teams were technically better that the NI teams. Ports were haunted that Shels didnt take them seriously enough in Tolka, and had their keeper to thank for beating City at Turners X, as he pulled off a number of world class saves.

And are you sure that the NI League is better supported than the eL? Id like to see your figures proving this. The last time I checked, the NI league is on its knees, and needs a merger with the eL more than the eL would need such. or did you just assume this?



And who would make up the regions? How would promotion and relegation be sorted? Have you seen Kildare Vs Monaghan in recent seasons? In fact have you been to any eL 1st division games?




Ah, this overused soundbite. The reason why there are so many Dublin teams is because they are better than the first division clubs. Unless you stop a team being promoted, and decide a few should be relegated on the basis of geography, there is nada can be done.

Come to think of it, does anyone in the UK moan that there are too many London clubs in the Premiership? We have Arsenal, Fulham, Spurs, Chelsea, Charlton, West Ham, almost 1/3 of the total. Is that bad for English football? Is it f*ck?

The reason people dont give a toss is because many (and Im not accusing anyone here) have never been to an eL game, or maybe went to one, and have decided its crap on the basis of one match/hearing from someone that its rubbish.

Another reason is becuase these people arent actually football fans, but telly watchers! You would swear there was never a poor game in the EPL/La Liga etc.

And another reason, which I find freakin HI-larious



yet, this guy probably has no problenm whatsoever heading down the pub, for Liverpool Vs Crystal Palace spending €20 on pints and/or going on a package deal to Parkhead costing €500.



[/rant]

In response.
An all Ireland league is needed not only for monetary reasons but also for competitive reasons, Kildare County only exist because newbridge FC were asked to join the league to make up numbers, they decided that they didnt have the money, fanbase or talent and rebuffed the Eircom leagues idea, the EL hounded them for months and in the end the people incharge or newbridge formed a commity to go about setting up kildare county FC using newbridge towns pitch, giving the worst of the dublin players way more money than then ever deserved and hoping that they dont go bankrupt in 5 years (words of kildare County board member a few weeks ago at the Kildare Vs Athlone game in newbridge)

That proves there is neither the support or desire in the league of ireland for a competitive premier and 1st division.

The Irish league is just as good as the league of EL 1st div. and has much better support than the likes of limerick, monahan, kildare and dublin city.
I have been to all four this year a an away support with Athlone town and thier support made ours look like we were doing well, our travling support was as big as kildare's home support and not far off kilkennys either.

I watched about 6 setanta cup games in verious states of drunkeness.

No I havent see kildare vs monahan but i have seen both teams (monahan twice and on sunday will be a third time) and they are both aamture at best as far as skill goes, I'd rather watch St. Peters vs Carew Park in the FAI Cup to be honest, And ~I did.


In england (and espically in london) soccer only really competes with rugby, which has about 1/5 the following so there are arses to fill seats, not the case with dublin, look at the attendance for the likes of UCD, Dublin City and Shamrock rovers are its blindingly obvious.

Even Athlone have ****e support, and we have one team to 40 odd thousand.
An all ireland team without the filler teams would be a step forward.

Scrap UCD, Scrap Dublin city and disolve kildare county and let some acutal teams like linfeild, portadown and the rest actually try instead of collecting wages and not giving a toss.


I don't support an EPL side.

MY alligences are as follows and in this order.

Athlone Town F.C.
Swansea City
A.C. Milan.

I watch football, and would watch any team play but it's helps when the match is atleast in some way entertaining, **** I've even stayed up to watch Brazilian league and Copa America matches because they are generally worth watching, I don't think I'd go out of my way to watch a 1st division match if atlone weren't involved because frankly it's kack, as are a lot of EL Premier teams.

redspider

redspider wrote:

The LOI has a long way to go, it is where it is, thats all I'm saying. I have nothng against it and I think it could be a lot better. But in recent years, its development, if anything is going backwards.

I see that some people have taken some offence to my "going backwards" remark, and perhaps that was a bit over the top. Maybe I didnt express myself clearly enough. I dont think the LOI is developing as it should. As I said, "I think it could be a lot better".

The point some of you are making (gimmick, slashed) is that the LOI is making progress and is worth paying into. Perhaps it is making some progress, but lets just take a look at how much progress with a sample of results from Europe:

2004
BATE 1-3 Bohemians 1-0 0-3
Bohemians 0-5 Rosenborg 0-1 0-4

1994
Cwmbran 4-4 Cork (ag) 3-2 1-2
Galatasaray 3-1 Cork 2-1 1-0

1984
Athlone 4-11 Standard 2-3 2-8

1974
Waterford 2-6 Újpest 2-3 0-3

1964
Dundalk 2-4 Zürich 0-3 2-1


Now, it looks like LOI teams are doing better, but what must be taken into account is that the size of Uefa has increased. There are more countries and more clubs, the break-up of Yugoslavia and the break-up of the Soviet Union. There are now many smaller clubs that are equal to the LOI clubs, and worse. So, I dont think we can be very proud at the moment of the progress of the LOI. Beating BATE, KR (on away goals!), Hajduk is nothing to be writing home about. Progress is very minimal, miniscule even. If you are in a race and there are slower runners, it doesnt mean that you have improved as a runner!

On the issue of whether paying 13 eur for entry is good value, the point is that if a stadium has a capacity of 10,000, which most of the proper clubs probably have (and should have), that 10k * 5 eur is more money than 3,500 * 13 eur. But money isnt everything. Attendence size is more important for the long-term development of the game. Its more important to get volumes of people going, rather than extracting as much as possible out of those that attend. Look, there's more people going to watch schools rugby than LOI games. And Ireland with 4m has the population to support several large clubs.

I understand your point gimmick that reducing prices from 13 to 5 would lose the clubs money, and could "kill" the league. But if I talk to someone from Europe, and they usually ask "Are there any teams in Ireland?". I mention the Shels, the Bohs, the Pats, Cork and Derry, and they havent heard of them, ever. Some have vaguely heard of Shamrock Rovers. To most, the league in its current level is already dead. If you want to imrpove it, reduce the entrance fee, improve the "product", get peope interested in it. If you dont want to improve it stay as you are. Change wont be easy, there may be short-term loss necessary for long-term gain.

btw, I cant wait to see who the LOI teams will be beating in Europe in 2014 !

redspider

applehunter

redspider wrote:

Look, there's more people going to watch schools rugby than LOI games. And Ireland with 4m has the population to support several large clubs.

I'd dispute that. Maybe the semi's and the final. Why don't you compare the attendances with the All-Ireland league which would be a more accurate comparison.

The AIL clubs would love to be getting the League of Ireland attendances.

redspider

applehunter wrote:

Why don't you compare the attendances with the All-Ireland league which would be a more accurate comparison. The AIL clubs would love to be getting the League of Ireland attendances.

Perhaps the Rugby league would like to be getting the LOI crowd levels, I havent looked into them to compare.

However, the real barometer of crowds and money and success rate for LOI has to be the SPL in Scotland which has a similar population, economic level (slightly lower), weather, proximity to England, etc. Crowds there and money there are much higher than LOI, and whilst I agree Ireland will always have a GAA factor holding back LOI, there is a lot of room for improvement at the LOI. I dont expect stadiums such as a Park Head to appear with 50,000 season ticket holders over night, but half of that should be doable and we are nowhere near that at the moment.

applehunter

redspider wrote:

However, the real barometer of crowds and money and success rate for LOI has to be the SPL in Scotland which has a similar population, economic level (slightly lower), weather, proximity to England, etc. Crowds there and money there are much higher than LOI, and whilst I agree Ireland will always have a GAA factor holding back LOI, there is a lot of room for improvement at the LOI. I dont expect stadiums such as a Park Head to appear with 50,000 season ticket holders over night, but half of that should be doable and we are nowhere near that at the moment.

I'd agree up to a point with what you're saying. In saying that Scottish football benefits on a whole from the huge clubs of Rangers & Celtic. Ireland do not have clubs of that size.

bohsman

Reading some of the rubbish in these posts Im happy for the league progressng the way it is, and perfectly happy to not have to listen to these people talking about franchises and scripted entertainment on foot.ie and dalymount bars etc

The league is progressing, ITV digitals collapse means a lot of Irish young players are and will come home while less will go across. Now all we need is better transfer deals for the clubs for players who do go across.

_blank_

I wonder if Dolan had no family connectins in Reading

a ) Would they even had been interested in Kev Doyle and Shane Long
b ) If they were, how much would they have paid, without knowing the €117,000 clause in Doyle's contract.

Also, about the fees being paid for eL players.

Clubs here simply cannot afford to hold out for large fees. If any club was offered in the region of 100-150k they would have to accept it anyway.

Say if some Championship club came in for Wes Hoolahan with an offer of €120,000. Shels would find it very hard to say no.

gimmick

As much as Kev Doyles fee infuriated me, it is still a step in the right direction.

When you consider Leicester bought Damein Delaney from City a few years ago for IR£8000, €117k sounds all the better. However, he is worth 5 times that at least, and Im not saying that as a biased Cork City fan - Im sure most eL fans who have seen him would concur.

Slash/ED

I would, when you consider Murphy went for a similar fee, Doyle is, imo, far better and has done alot more in his time in the EL, espically in Europe.

applehunter

Both Waterford and Cork were shafted as far as im concerned. the 100k for Doyle should have at least been *5 that.

Cork City still need to purchase land for a new training complex and work on the Shed end of the ground is also coming up soon. So 100k will not do much to finish those projects. :mad:

thejollyrodger

One things that would really make a huge improvement would be to agree a standard Eircom League contract. Why they cant do that is beyond me. All the clubs keep shooting themselves in the foot.

redspider

bohsman wrote:

Reading some of the rubbish in these posts Im happy for the league progressng the way it is

The LOI clubs have been "progressing" since the 1920's, but they have not got very far! Progress is too slow. This is a decades old problem as the LOI clubs have always been small relative to where they could be, for example, comparing them to the Scottish top-five clubs which to me is a reasonable barometer.

You may be happy with progress, but I'm not. LOI is an embarassment to Ireland. And my gut feeling is that the majority of the clubs in the LOI and the structure are also happy, although to be fair to the clubs they are probably more worried by the day to day things than some overall strategy and development.

Slow progress will get you nowhere. The LOI will be the same in 10 years time more or less unless something radical happens to shake it up, to spur on the development.

Redspider

redspider

An interesting snippet from RTE related to previous
posts:

MARK O'NEILL-CUMMINS EIRCOM LGE FOCUS
The transfers of Cork City's Kevin
Doyle and Shane Long to Reading and
Waterford's Daryl Murphy to Sunderland
are well deserved for the players
concerned but have come as a big blow
to the eircom League.

It is really disappointing that players
of their quality should have to leave
this country to realise their
footballing potential.

Wouldn't it be great if our best young
talent could ply their trade in a top
league in their own back yard and
realise their dream of playing for
their country into the bargain?

Doyle should expect to feature with the
first team squad next season, as there
has been a mini clear-out at Reading.

However, Long may have to wait for his
chance.

He'll at least be eligible to play for
the Reading Academy but chances are he
could feature in Steve Coppell's plans,
who has heaped praise on his new
recruit.

Both will be well looked after - a
familiar face at the club will be Eamon
Dolan, who's head of the academy and
brother of former Cork boss Pat.

Ex-England international Les Ferdinand
was at Reading last season but is
unsure of whether he will play on,
while striker Nicky Forster has not yet
inked the one-year extension offered to
him.

Many reports last week suggested that
Doyle has a much better chance of
gaining an international cap at Reading
than had he stayed at Turner's Cross.

There's a lot of merit to that and it's
very disappointing that when he does
play for his country, the record books
will show that it was as a Reading
player and not a Cork City player.

Murphy may find it difficult at
Sunderland, as he is moving to one of
the top European leagues.

With the Black Cats signing several new
names already and more to come, the
Waterford hot shot will face stiff
competition just to get into the squad.

But the fact that striker Karl Kyle may
miss the start of the season through
injury will help Murphy's chances.

Another plus is that Watford rejected a
bid from Sunderland for striker Heidar
Helguson and Kenny Miller appears to be
staying at Wolves despite interest from
the Black Cats.

Mick McCarthy is clearly not finished
his summer shopping spree, so it's hard
to say for sure how Murphy will fare.

Doyle was given a tremendous send off
at Turner's Cross but Murphy missed out
on a similar occasion, such was the
drawn out nature of his transfer.

At one stage it looked like it wouldn't
go through at all but it has now and he
leaves a large hole in the Waterford
team.

All three, of course, will be sorely
missed by their respective teams and
fans.

+++

Kingp35

redspider wrote:

You may be happy with progress, but I'm not. LOI is an embarassment to Ireland. And my gut feeling is that the majority of the clubs in the LOI and the structure are also happy, although to be fair to the clubs they are probably more worried by the day to day things than some overall strategy and development.

Slow progress will get you nowhere. The LOI will be the same in 10 years time more or less unless something radical happens to shake it up, to spur on the development.

I agree with this 100%. The EL is a total joke of a League at the moment. This does not mean that there is not good players, managers etc. within the League because there are and being a Bray Wanderers season ticket holder I have seen all the teams play for the last few years. Its just the state of the facilities, the total lack of interest and the quality of the average player within the league is very bad.

This is a mojor problem and it is sad to see that players like Kevin Doyle, Shane Long and Daryl Murphy have to leave our league in order to further their careers. These are the type of players the league needs to be keeping in order for the standard to improve.

The reason there is a lack of interest in the league is because there is a major lack of media coverage and no marketing what so ever. If there was a regular highlights show, more press coverage and a mojor Marketing stint this would raise the profile of the league. People need to go to games but tehre is no use just saying that and giving out about it like most EL fans do because thats not the answer. Something has to be done, press coverage needs to be introduced, regular games on TV and a regular highlights show. The El should take a look at what the GAA does. They have good advertisning campaigns, radio and tv coverage and press coverage and this gains peoples interest. Look at the crowds the GAA pulls. Thats whats needed.RTE are our national tv station and should have the developement of Irish sport as a high priority yet they seem to be focusing entirely on the premiership and paying out alot of money for the rights to show these games. the EL needs this money and coverage more than the PL. Everybosy knows football relies on tv coverage and money these days so RTE should wake up and begin supporting Irish football as well as the PL.

Alot of people have been talking about restructuring the league. I dont think this will work but I do see a problem with there being too many clubs in Dublin. Because of this no club can really pull a big fan base simply because there are too many clubs! Shelbourne have the right idea moving out to the Malahide direction as there are no EL clubs out there and therefore there is the potentail to secure a larger fan base. Other clubs should take note.

It basically boils down to getting interest into the league again. if this can be done it will bring in extra money for developement etc and its all a reletive process after that. The EL are not doing anything to raise the profile of the game and so its a painfully slow developement process. Something needs to be done fast but something tells me it may already be too late.

applehunter

Kingp35 wrote:

I agree with this 100%. The EL is a total joke of a League at the moment. This does not mean that there is not good players, managers etc. within the League because there are and being a Bray Wanderers season ticket holder I have seen all the teams play for the last few years. Its just the state of the facilities, the total lack of interest and the quality of the average player within the league is very bad.

I wouldn't call it a "joke of a league" but things could be better. The FAI & the government need to build a soccer industry here in Ireland. Facilities for the most part are simply not up to standard.

Its like your beating your head off a wall though. Fans of the league have been saying it for years. The FAI need the will to do it. They have let down the league so much for the last 30 years, that they should do it out of embarassment.

Töpher

applehunter wrote:

I wouldn't call it a "joke of a league" but things could be better. The FAI & the government need to build a soccer industry here in Ireland. Facilities for the most part are simply not up to standard.

Its like your beating your head off a wall though. Fans of the league have been saying it for years. The FAI need the will to do it. They have let down the league so much for the last 30 years, that they should do it out of embarassment.

But if the FAI caved now, they'd basically be admitting to being wrong - which they would never do, its almost as embarassing doing that as living thru the embarassment they are at the moment.

Realistically, we need a few more years of European exposure to get any form of realistic development aid from the FAI, which will be tough without getting the development help - catch 22 tbh!

Maybe if Kerr picked the odd EL player or two for a squad (Christ, some of our players are good enough for bench at least! And the likes of Heary'd be good enough to start!), maybe that would give the FAI a kick in the ass? Not that Kerr'd ever do that!

Kingp35

Einst&#252 wrote: »

Maybe if Kerr picked the odd EL player or two for a squad (Christ, some of our players are good enough for bench at least! And the likes of Heary'd be good enough to start!), maybe that would give the FAI a kick in the ass? Not that Kerr'd ever do that!

im not so sure about that. Heary is a good player granted but I dont think he is better than Finnan or Carr and there are only so many right backs that we need. if one of these isnt in the squad though I would be happy to put him in.

Your right that we need to expose the league more but I'm not sure if picking these players for the national is the right way to go because I dont think many are up for playing the likes of France. It would be a shame to put the National team at risk just for the sake of picking these players. You see I dont think they have the right experience against top players to play and again thats the fault of the league. When we have picked LOI players before they havent done very well so this wont rush Ireland managers into picking them again. Traditionally Brian Kerr has picked LOI players in his teams but again its the viewpoint that the league isnt of a high enough standard, which is true tbh, for a true reflection of these players to be had and thats why they move abroad to try and get experience and make it easier for irish managers to pick them.

I cant see it working without the profile of the league being raised which is down to marketing and media to get people interested. If players are being praised in papers and on tv they will more likely to stay and thus raisning our standard. I dont think any LOI players will get a place in the Irish team until the standard of the league improves somewhat.

Thats what I think anyway

Töpher

I meant recently, with so many full backs out, resorting to the likes of Reid/Maybury is worse than Heary imho, but thats neither here nor there

redspider

Kingp35 wrote:

Your right that we need to expose the league more but I'm not sure if picking these players for the national is the right way to go. Traditionally Brian Kerr has picked LOI players in his teams but again its the viewpoint that the league isnt of a high enough standard, which is true tbh

Yes, I agree. Most people think it would be good for the LOI to get players in the national team, and Kerr has tried to do that much more than McCarthy or Charlton. We do have to recognise their limits and make sure that selections do not hamper the national teams progress. I think playing an LOI right back in that match against Israel was much too much of a risk, and thought that Kerr would pick O'Shea (although most posters here seemed to be going for Stephen Reid!), which he did in the end.

The truth of the matter is that if an LOI player is good enough to be in the Irish team, then he is also good enough to be attracted to clubs in England or Scotland and to earn more money there. Only with a much improved LOI will players be of the quality to hold down places in the Irish team.


Now to highlight another problem with the LOI.

Match schedules. I for one can never tell when my team is going to play. The schedule is all over the place. Whilst this might be good for a top league like the english one, with matches on many days in a week, it is a real problem for those fans and potential fans that are on the edge of following the LOI. For example, here is the upcoming schedule:

FRIDAY JUNE 17
Bray Wanderers -v- Cork City * 7.45
Drogheda Utd -v- UCD 7.45
Shelbourne -v- Shamrock Rvs 8.00
Galway Utd -v- Dublin City 7.30
Limerick -v- Sligo Rovers 7.45

SATURDAY JUNE 18
Bohemians -v- KAA Ghent * 7.00
Longford Town -v- Derry City 8.00
Finn Harps -v- Waterford Utd 7.45
Kildare County -v- Dundalk 7.30
Cobh Ramblers -v- Kilkenny City 7.45

SUNDAY JUNE 19
Monaghan Utd -v- Athlone Town 3.00

MONDAY JUNE 20
Cork City -v- Kilkenny City 7.45
UCD -v- Shamrock Rvs 7.45

TUESDAY JUNE 21
Cobh Ramblers -v- Waterford Utd 7.45
Bohemians -v- St Pat's Ath 7.45
Drogheda Utd -v- Monaghan Utd 7.45
Sligo Rovers -v- Longford Town 7.45
Shelbourne -v- Kildare County 7.45


That is just plain ridiculous. Matches on Friday evening, when most punters will be heading for a few scoops at home or going out. The same for Sat night.

The games on Sat will also clash with GAA matches. As will the solitary game on Sunday. Monday was already mentioned as a "no no" night, yet there are two games on. And again more games on Tue.

The solutions I suggested earlier still apply:

- change to a normal winter league, dont compete with the GAA
- pick a schedule that doesnt compete with the English premeirship

And in terms of the schedule, arrange them so that they are concentrated and most teams play on the same one or two days, so that people can get accustomed to it. A fan, who may want to follow a team, can hardly do it at the moment as games are played all over the place.

Someone wrote the LOI is not a joke.
But if a neutral businessman would look at this, he would think it was!

Redspider

gimmick

redspider wrote:

That is just plain ridiculous. Matches on Friday evening, when most punters will be heading for a few scoops at home or going out. The same for Sat night.

So, when do you propose games be played? have you done any research to show that Fridays are a bad night for football? Or saturday nights for that matter?

Ill give examples of what I know.

Cork City traditionally played on Sunday afternoons @ 2pm. For various reasons attendences dropped steadily, to approx 1750 average the seasoon before moving to friday night football. The move to friday night has been a HUGE success for City. When TV has dictated a move to Saturdays at 5.15pm, there has been a noticable fall off.

Cobh Ramblers play at home on Saturday nights. They have tried it Thursdays, Fridays, Saturday afternoons and Sunday afternoons, yet saturday has always been their most succesful night. Their crowds may not be big, but better on Saturday nights.

Longford town play Saturdays nights. they tried a move to Friday evenings and it was an absolute disaster, as much of their support base are elsewhere based, and are not in Longford friday nights.

---

Personally, I reckon they should all be played 3pm Saturday, with TV games friday night. It may take time for people to get used to, but it could work. But with so much TV/armchair/barstool football on TV, its not that realistic. That may be a defeatist attitude, but probably realsitic.

redspider wrote:

change to a normal winter league, dont compete with the GAA

Poppycock. The change to summer football has been, by in large, a big success, both attendance-wise and otherwise ie Euro competition. The eL IS NOT COMPETING WITH THE GAA in any way, shape or form. To try and comopete would be stupid. Thats why there is never a KO clash with GAA.

And besides, if the summer league is so poor, why are the NI league and the Welsh league both looking at doing likewise?

redspider wrote:

pick a schedule that doesnt compete with the English premeirship

Do you want the eL for apologise for its existence altogether. The above statement is ridiculous. If the eL were to be looking at how the EPL would affect it, they might just have to play on Thursday nights, as with Sky/Rte/Norwegian/box office, there is pretty much football on TV everyday. Would you suggest that it goes on hiatus during the champions league as well, while we are at it?

Töpher

There's no way we're going back to a winter league! Or as far as I can see, the switch to summer football has proved successful, in terms of European competition at leats - which was the main motive behind the switch.

Slash/ED

redspider wrote:

The truth of the matter is that if an LOI player is good enough to be in the Irish team, then he is also good enough to be attracted to clubs in England or Scotland and to earn more money there. Only with a much improved LOI will players be of the quality to hold down places in the Irish team.

The top players here are on as much as they would be playing for poor first divison or SPL sides. Divison one sides have tried and failed to sign Shels players before, and probably others too, espically in the case of Wes Hoolahan who was chased by Coventry for some time.

PHB

The eL IS NOT COMPETING WITH THE GAA in any way, shape or form. To try and comopete would be stupid. Thats why there is never a KO clash with GAA.

We have 3.5 million people.
At most of these, 10,000 of them will go onto to play professional/high level sports.
If the GAA takes up roughly, and this is just off the top of my head, 50 top quality atheletes into each county team, thats 1600 players who could have been playing soccer.
EL is in direct compo with GAA at grass roots level, and for Ireland to be a world class league they have to win that battle just as the English/Brazil etc have

Slash/ED

PHB wrote:

We have 3.5 million people.
At most of these, 10,000 of them will go onto to play professional/high level sports.
If the GAA takes up roughly, and this is just off the top of my head, 50 top quality atheletes into each county team, thats 1600 players who could have been playing soccer.
EL is in direct compo with GAA at grass roots level, and for Ireland to be a world class league they have to win that battle just as the English/Brazil etc have

Well in the same way the international team is in direct conflict with them at grass routes level, it's a competition for football in general in this country, not just the league.

PHB

Yes, but if football wins the general battle, more playesr will go for the EL.

redspider

Of course the LOI competes with the GAA. With 4m people in the country, that is the market size and from those posckets is how both the GAA and the LOI get their money. If GAA games are being played on the same weekend as the LOI, people attending are likely to go to one or the other, not both. People watching on TV are likely to watch the sport with the most interest for them. They may watch both if they dont clash. I think that the LOI is asking for trouble by playing in the summer time, as there are so many potential followers who will not follow it and cannot because of their GAA commitments. This is a tradition that has built up over many decades. So playing the LOI during the summer is discounting a large percentage of that target market, and people that are clearly interested in sport and ball games. Its a disasterous decision imo.

I watched some of the LOI game on Friday. One of the problems is the amount of fouling. There were 38 fouls in the match. Thats nearly 1 every two minutes. This is stop-start football. The goals all came from header situations, possibly with goalies to blame for all 3 as the headers were made in the 6 yard box. There were only 8 attempts on target. This was hardly a showcase of a match for the LOI, and I guess as Shamrock Rovers are in a sort of cavalier mode at the momet it seems, it was always likely to be an unusual match. Two sendings off didnt help.

I'll have more comments on this thread later.

Redspider

gimmick

Come off it. Do you expect the TV people to tell the teams to 'keep it clean please lads, and try play passing attractive football'? There are dirty games in every league in the world. There are poor goals scored from defensive points of view in every league in the world.

You are the only person Ive heard/read to comment that Shels Vs Shams was poor, though that doesnt surprise me in the slightest. From what i have heard it was a highly competitive, exciting game, with a real derby feel about it.

Töpher

It was an entertaining match, are any derby matches clean?
I watched the first half live, went to Billy Corgan, and then watched the full 90 minutes repeated on Sunday. And I loved it. Even knowing the score. The lack of shots on target was again down to Shels poor account of themselves up front. Rovers played well enough, but Shels spent alot of time attacking with seemingly no threat, it was like they were afraid to shoot.

On a side note: By Christ, if we don't hammer Kildare... :eek:

Slash/ED

It was the bottom team beating the champions in a heated derby with a great atmosphere and incredible rivalry. If, say, Man City went to Old Trafford as the bottom team and beat them in similar circumstances it would be remembered as a great game. I think you're looking for the negatives when watching the games.

Jonny Arson

Einst&#252 wrote: »

By Christ, if we don't hammer Kildare... :eek:

I don't want to think about that! :eek:

Nutsy has got to play a full strength team end of story. We need to get in a creative and goal scoring mood ASAP and Kildare are the perfect opposition. Didn't Shels beat them 6-0 in a pre-season friendly?

Töpher

6-1

Some defensive mishaps there too :eek:

redspider

gimmick wrote:

Come off it. Do you expect the TV people to tell the teams to 'keep it clean please lads, and try play passing attractive football'? There are dirty games in every league in the world. There are poor goals scored from defensive points of view in every league in the world.

You are the only person Ive heard/read to comment that Shels Vs Shams was poor, though that doesnt surprise me in the slightest. From what i have heard it was a highly competitive, exciting game, with a real derby feel about it.

There were positives in the game, and I will mention them. No, I dont expect the TV people to demand clean games. Looking at the game it was not dirty by any shape or form. There were just a few too many small niggly fouls. It was a clean game really although there were a few dangerous fouls. The two sendings off were for minor incidents really, and the latter one was a good tackle, so not a 2nd yellow card. But 38 fouls is a lot of stoppages.

If anything, Shelbourne were the better footballing team, and played it a fair bit on the deck. They are just missing a few pieces. And they still have "hard men" in their 1st team. Rovers have McCourt who is quite good skillful. The quality of the football was not poor but it had rough edges, exemplified by some of the misses for Shelbourne, such as the Jason Byrne missed header and the Glen Crowe missed sitter from 6 yards out and the sloppy defending and sloppy goalkeeping for the goals. Both of these teams do not have a potent finisher which would help on the entertainment aspect.

The reason why I'm pointing out the problems of this game as an example of an LOI game, as good as this one may be relatively, is to assist in making suggestions for improvement to the LOI clubs and the standard of LOI football. So this game may have been competitive and exciting, but there are still lessons to be learned and still room for improvement.

Einst&#252 wrote: »

It was an entertaining match, are any derby matches clean? I watched the first half live, went to Billy Corgan, and then watched the full 90 minutes repeated on Sunday. And I loved it. Even knowing the score. The lack of shots on target was again down to Shels poor account of themselves up front. Rovers played well enough, but Shels spent alot of time attacking with seemingly no threat, it was like they were afraid to shoot.

I also watched it again on video. It was quite a good game, the crowd were up for it, it was a balmy dry sunny summer evening, Shelbourne were playing Rovers, two of the potential top-10 for the premier format which I think would be good, and 2 of the teams from Dublin. Both teams are also relatively good footballing teams in terms of the others, from what I've read. And both teams needed points. But why wasnt it on RTE? Also, why a Friday night when nearly half the country are commuting either to Dublin or out of Dublin or in the pub/beer garden, as we get so few balmy evenings. I realise Dub fans dont commute per se but if a better time is chosen, a wider interest and wider audience may result. I still cant see Friday evening as being a suitable option long-term.

Shels did have a few reasonable ideas, Houlahan seems to know what he wants to do, but Byrne and Crowe werent on form and without a striker, most ideas were poorly executed.

Slash/ED wrote:

It was the bottom team beating the champions in a heated derby with a great atmosphere and incredible rivalry. If, say, Man City went to Old Trafford as the bottom team and beat them in similar circumstances it would be remembered as a great game. I think you're looking for the negatives when watching the games.

I agree with the heated derby with a great atmosphere and incredible rivalry. I'm only looking for negatives to see what can be improved. If the Shels v Hoops game as it was is the standard by which all teams should be attaining, then I dont think the league will change that much. It was interesting to watch, but it will take a lot of entertainment to get the people in.

Lets look at the "problems" in a different way. Real Madrid sign who they think are the best players in the world, the so-called Galacticos, to be entertainig for the crowd. Basbetball teams in Ireland sign "a yank" who can perform well and do magic tricks, etc. Do any of the LOI teams employ this tactic and pay over the odds for a star player or two? Who are the "big signings" at Shels or at Rovers? Just a few "big" signings in the league could draw interest, crowds and media interest, even if they are has-beens. Gazza probably would have been ideal for the LOI at some point on his career finish, although maybe the drink temptation in Ireland may have been too much.

By the way, the crowd atmosphere and singing was good to hear. A real positove and that really helps. Fanatism is good. However, the bad side of that is what happened at the end, the pitch invasion, the fans confronting each other and the lack of organised supervision. The stadium was far from full so the LOI will need to learn how to stamp out such trouble as it will affect other potential fans from attending, or indeed watching.

I'll be looking out for more games as the seaon continues, maybe a 4-3 thriller with 7 brilliant goals is just about to happen. I hope.

Redspider

Big Ears

PHB wrote:

We have 3.5 million people.

4.065 million , your figuires are from two census' ago .


By the way redspider the change to the summer league has been one of the greatest ever decisions by the league .

Slash/ED

redspider wrote:

Both of these teams do not have a potent finisher which would help on the entertainment aspect.

They didn't have on the night, as Crowe and Byrne were badly off form, but at their best they do. You can't account for a slump like some of the Shels players are in.

I agree with the heated derby with a great atmosphere and incredible rivalry. I'm only looking for negatives to see what can be improved. If the Shels v Hoops game as it was is the standard by which all teams should be attaining, then I dont think the league will change that much. It was interesting to watch, but it will take a lot of entertainment to get the people in.

It's not the standard they should be attaining, as it's not like people are saying it's the best match of the season or anything like that, but no league can produce a classic every week. It was a typical derby game, good to watch, it wont be remembered in years down the road like other Shels Rovers games (such as thet incredible 4-2 game) but it was a good game to watch because of the drama and rivalry, as the majority of games in any league are, with the odd classic thrown in that you hope are lucky enough to be caught on live TV like Pats Bohs that was recently on sportsfile.

Lets look at the "problems" in a different way. Real Madrid sign who they think are the best players in the world, the so-called Galacticos, to be entertainig for the crowd. Basbetball teams in Ireland sign "a yank" who can perform well and do magic tricks, etc. Do any of the LOI teams employ this tactic and pay over the odds for a star player or two? Who are the "big signings" at Shels or at Rovers? Just a few "big" signings in the league could draw interest, crowds and media interest, even if they are has-beens. Gazza probably would have been ideal for the LOI at some point on his career finish, although maybe the drink temptation in Ireland may have been too much.

Gazza wasn't going to help at all. First of all, he wouldn't have been good enough, secondly it'd make us look like a joke league if we were signing over the hill players like that. If you want to see magic tricks wait until you see Ndo or Wes Hoolahan fully on form, incredible players to watch, and that's just two players on the Shels team. I'd pay to see them, McCourt, Kearney, Kelly, Harkin and many others in this league on their own, espically Hoolahan, the problem is the general public need to be more aware of these players.

By the way, the crowd atmosphere and singing was good to hear. A real positove and that really helps. Fanatism is good. However, the bad side of that is what happened at the end, the pitch invasion, the fans confronting each other and the lack of organised supervision. The stadium was far from full so the LOI will need to learn how to stamp out such trouble as it will affect other potential fans from attending, or indeed watching.

Fully agree with you 100% there.

I'll be looking out for more games as the seaon continues, maybe a 4-3 thriller with 7 brilliant goals is just about to happen. I hope.

Could be, but don't expect one every week. No league in the world will produce classic memorable matches every week.

redspider

Just to continue with some thoughts on whats wrong with football in Ireland. (LOI/FAI).

Slash/ED wrote:

It's not the standard they should be attaining, as it's not like people are saying it's the best match of the season or anything like that, but no league can produce a classic every week.

.. secondly it'd make us look like a joke league if we were signing over the hill players like that.

... Fully agree with you 100% there.

Its good to see we can agree on something ;-)

I agree that we shouldnt be expecting classics every week, but I hope there is some before the season is out. Dont forget to post it here in case I miss it, and given that there are matches on 4 out of 7 days in the week, I (and the other "non-followers") could easily miss them.

I dont think signing players in the "sunset" of their career makes the league a joke. For one thing, look at Bolton. They can match experience with some youth and do very well. The experience is of value. I dont recommend loads of has-beens coming in, but a few would be a welcome addition, especially that some players would just love to keep playing, as highlighted by the documentary that Hansen did a few weeks ago.


ok, here is my latest "problem" observation:

The expected top-4 clubs in Dublin (Bohs, Shels, Pats, Rovers) arent doing very well. eg:
UCD 1-0 Rovers

UCD should not be in the league as a club. The players should of course, but not with UCD which is never going to get any real support. Bray should also be zapped or merged.

The latest table is:

Team P W D L F/A Pts.
Cork City 13 9 3 1 22 / 7 30
Derry City 13 7 3 3 15 / 8 24
Shelbourne 13 6 4 3 19 / 10 22
Drogheda United 13 5 5 3 16 / 14 20
Bohemians 12 5 4 3 13 / 12 19
Longford Town 13 5 3 5 11 / 10 18
UCD 13 3 5 5 9 / 12 14
Bray Wanderers 13 4 2 7 16 / 22 14
Waterford United 13 4 2 7 10 / 17 14
St Patrick's Athletic 12 3 4 5 14 / 16 13
Finn Harps 13 2 2 9 6 / 18 8
Shamrock Rovers 13 3 5 5 14 / 19 6


In terms of the premier-10 idea, Galway are way off the pace for selection, which is a big loss of potential supports. Its great that Cork and Derry are there. (any chance of a team from West Belfast joining?, maybe don the road). Drogheda are passable, but having both Dundalk and Drogheda is an overkill. Longford is just too small of an ara to garner much support. UCD (see above). Bray, ok for a local league but not for the LOI, not unless they want to displace one of the big-4 Dublin teams, Bray can be considered a Dublin team in terms of location. Waterford Utd fine, as long as the likes of that player-manager stay away. Finn Harps, alas, as much as the romantics may want them to be a top-flight team, it is just not practical in terms of a premier-10 idea. They are based in Ballybofey which is a small town, can you imagine, Ballybofey Harps? Letterkenny has some chance, but again, about the size of a Longford. I think the NW is best served by Derry or Sligo. Maybe Derry Harps is an idea.

Overall, I realise there is a lot of support for the summer league, but in the long run, it will act as a limiter on the development of the league due to the competition for fans who will follow GAA.

Redspider

Kingp35

redspider wrote:

Bray, ok for a local league but not for the LOI, not unless they want to displace one of the big-4 Dublin teams, Bray can be considered a Dublin team in terms of location.

I dont agree with the bray analogy. All other Dublin clubs are pretty much northside clubs or to out it a better way the southside of Dublin has no EL club. Being from Dalkey I live way south so I support Bray as they are my local club. There isnt another EL club for miles so getting rid of Bray would be a bad idea. They have to potential to pull a big fan base as there are no other clubs around the southside of Dublin where alot of people live.

Overall, I realise there is a lot of support for the summer league, but in the long run, it will act as a limiter on the development of the league due to the competition for fans who will follow GAA.

This is true in one way but the reason they moved it to the summer in the first place was so it wouldnt clash with the english league season. So I guess its really a decision a tough decision to make as one way most people would watch the english league and on the other most people would watch the GAA. I think its better the way it is at the moment because if your a true soccer fan you will go to the EL whether the GAA is on or not to get your soccer fix during the summer as its the only league on but if you have them both during the winter I think the english league would take precedent over most soccer fans and they might be less likely to go to EL games. Thats just my opinion on it I guess there is a good arguement for both ways really but I just think the way it is now is a slightly better way.

applehunter

I don't see the big clash with the GAA at all. I live in Cork and we have only played 2 championship games so far in hurling in football. How does this clash with me supporting Cork City.

There is plenty, plenty of room for soccer in the summer. If only people would go out and support the bloody thing.

applehunter

redspider wrote:

Finn Harps, alas, as much as the romantics may want them to be a top-flight team, it is just not practical in terms of a premier-10 idea. They are based in Ballybofey which is a small town, can you imagine, Ballybofey Harps? Letterkenny has some chance, but again, about the size of a Longford. I think the NW is best served by Derry or Sligo. Maybe Derry Harps is an idea.

History has shown that Finn Harps are well able to garner support. They get support from all over Donegal and not just Ballybofey. They have loads of fans from Letterkenny and busses drive from all parts of the county to support them.

All they need is a bit of success on the pitch. Hopefully when they move out of the run-down Finn Park and into a new stadium in the next 2 years they will be able to challenge.

_blank_

Kingp35 wrote:

I dont agree with the bray analogy. All other Dublin clubs are pretty much northside clubs or to out it a better way the southside of Dublin has no EL club.

Yes it does.

St Patrick's Athletic of Inchicore and UCD of Belfield.

De Nortsoide has Shels, Bohs and CHF.

Rovers, while they currently play in Dalymount, hope in the future to be based on the Southside in Tallaght.

redspider

Kingp35 wrote:

I dont agree with the bray analogy. All other Dublin clubs are pretty much northside clubs or to out it a better way the southside of Dublin has no EL club. Being from Dalkey I live way south so I support Bray as they are my local club. There isnt another EL club for miles so getting rid of Bray would be a bad idea.

The idea of having two large Dublin northside clubs and two large southside clubs would be the ideal way to go, from a market perspective.

If Rovers settle in Tallaght, I guess that can be classified as southside, although quite far out west. As I said, Bray could be the one of the 4 large Dublin teams, but I'm not sure if their current ground has the potential to expand, and if many potential fans from the southside of the city would have an affinity with Bray. Maybe they should be called Dun-Laoire Rathdown Wanderers or DLRB Wanderers (B for Bray) or just Wanderers.

Redspider

redspider

applehunter wrote:

I don't see the big clash with the GAA at all. I live in Cork and we have only played 2 championship games so far in hurling in football. How does this clash with me supporting Cork City. There is plenty, plenty of room for soccer in the summer. If only people would go out and support the bloody thing.

If you want potential followers to go to the games and to watch it on RTE TV (who should be mandated to have some matches on), then there is a clash. GAA followers of Cork may also watch other GAA games and fans have only so much time and energy to devote. I take the point that someone else made that the english league is also a competitor, but the LOI is played out more or less exactly when the GAA is on, and only saves itself from the english football onslaught during its very short off-season, which is brief. To me its like they are competing with both.

Perhaps Cork is big enough to allow the two GAA codes to be suppoted reasonably, although Cork football cannot be considered to be so fanatical, as well as maintaining support level for Cork City soccer. Or maybe the clash will come later in the season as the GAA campaign ramps up. But I still think its a clash.

I guess another competitor of sorts is the weather, people are relaxing in Ireland, and are going off on holidays elsewhere or away for weekends, so going to a soccer match or sports event or indeed watching it on the box are not the first thing people will have a priority for. Perhaps that is why most of the kick-offs are in the evening, to avoid heat, when it comes and to allow fans to enjoy their days.

There is one line though which is a problem: you say:
"If only people would go out and support the bloody thing."

I dont think its got anything to do with people's laziness. If the entertainment on offer is good, and if the LOI/FAI Cup games would get suitable media promotion, then people will go to the matches and will watch them. Its true that even when the sport does improve, as it may be doing, it will take people a while to turn around and start supporting it, but dont blame the "market".

Redspider

Kingp35

seansouth wrote:

Yes it does.

St Patrick's Athletic of Inchicore and UCD of Belfield.

De Nortsoide has Shels, Bohs and CHF.

Rovers, while they currently play in Dalymount, hope in the future to be based on the Southside in Tallaght.

I mean way down south where I live. South of UCD there is no team and there is a huge potential fan base. I donnt count Tallaght as the southside its more the west. There is big towns down the south and alot of people. Inchicore is a long way away from me and nobody will support UCD because they are a college team. Thats represented by their terrible crowds. Bray is the only team that caters for the "real" south that way down south completely away from the north. thats what I meant by saying there is no team in the south.

If Rovers settle in Tallaght, I guess that can be classified as southside, although quite far out west. As I said, Bray could be the one of the 4 large Dublin teams, but I'm not sure if their current ground has the potential to expand, and if many potential fans from the southside of the city would have an affinity with Bray. Maybe they should be called Dun-Laoire Rathdown Wanderers or DLRB Wanderers (B for Bray) or just Wanderers.

Well you would be surprised about how many fans from around my area and Dun Laoghaire go to Bray games. It would be alot more than go from the Bray area. I know that because I know most of them. People just want to go see a football game and sice bray is the only club around here thats where they go and who they end up supporting. You would honestly be surprised. For example Bray have a link with the big schoolboy team in south Dublin called St. Josephs Boys. Im sure you have all heard of them. Anyway that club is well outside bray in fact its further from Bray than I am. they have gotten many players of Josephs as it acts as kind of a feeder club. Because of taht this generates alot of interest as many people from the surrounding areas know the players and go to support them. SO there is a huge potential fan base around here that could be tapped into if only a bit more interest could be raised.

I ahve to agree though that Brays ground isnt up to much and there is no room really to expand it. I would perhaps think about the idea of merger with having bray and some other team and trying to build a stadium around the Dun Laoghaire area. There would be massive support for this as there is so many soccer fans who simply dont go as its too far. Especially the younger crowd which is who teh league really need to be attracting. I would be sad to see Bray go though but it might be for the best.

redspider

applehunter wrote:

History has shown that Finn Harps are well able to garner support. They get support from all over Donegal and not just Ballybofey. They have loads of fans from Letterkenny and busses drive from all parts of the county to support them. All they need is a bit of success on the pitch. Hopefully when they move out of the run-down Finn Park and into a new stadium in the next 2 years they will be able to challenge.

I realise they get good support for their size. Donegal county has a population of 120,000 or so, but its a big county and fans arent likey to travel all the time year-in, year-out unless they become successful. Support levels in recent years dropped back to 700 hundred and even less for home games. That is just not enough. I think they are an unlikely long-term candidate for a top-10 team, alas.


Other points: Bohs got knocked out to Ghent. And Shelbourne have drawn Glentoran in the CL, probably the most unromantic draw of the lot, and perhaps one that could cost the most bother, with Shels in a bad patch. The dream draw for TNS, and Glentoran also stating that the draw they wanted was the Liverpool match. Would Shelbourne take it now?

Redspider

_blank_

redspider wrote:

Would Shelbourne take it now?

No way. We wouldn't have beaten Liverpool.

We are playing Glentoran, and have a very good chance of beating them and progressing to the second round.

As for your comment about the tie being "unromantic", well what the hell does that mean?

[Jackass]

I think the profile of the leauge is already on the up with the combination of summer soccer (master stroke for crowds aswell as Europe) and the increasing exposure all the time on live TV, papers, Teletext etc. ...and it's great, i really want the leauge to sucseed in the medium term..possibly 3rd round Qual/ CL group stage contenders every year....who knows...but the answer is blatantly Europe. If Irish teams sucseed there, all soccer fans will come out to support them.

I think the standard is improving all the time, and it helps to go to the matches without the same expectations as when you were at anfield last week, but the games are still always entertaining.

If the progress keeps being made in the leauge, facilitys and progression in Europe, lots of players would love the chance to come here.
If a championship player or lowly premiership player had a chance to get into a team thats playing CL group stage football every other year, that's when the leauge will absolutely boom i think...it will take a while before we get there, but i defenatly believe in 10 years or less a EL side will get into the CL groups.

One thing that needs to be erradicated though is the lads on the terrace who have the attitude "People are such lazy, disloyal twats, never supporting there own national leauge, for gods sake...and obsessed with an English team and all that!! Spending rakes of money on the jerseys, tickets, all the merchandise...but not a penny on there own leauge!!They should come out to matches ffs!" , and the same person will say "I've been a shels/bohs/rovers etc. supporter all my life!! Your not a real fan! Your only into now that they did well...i was here for the bad times too...your a tourist, glory hunter...not a real fan!"

LoL, i've heard that various times on different occasions, with the same people moaning about one thing and the other.

Big Ears

Ya whatever be said about bandwagon supporters in English football we certainly need them in LOI , Europe is the way to gain support a lot of people all over the country became interested in Shels when they went on their run last year . People who had not seen a Shels game in years(before the run) were able to name what they thought was Shels best 11 . Now Shels attendences havent exactly soard since then but I beleive similar runs in the future will cause a big rise in attendences .

There is a lot of improvement in other clubs too and now there is more money than ever being invested in the league so things are definetly on the up .
One problem is wages seem very high in comparison to turnover this is something that has to get sorted .

Despite the larger than ever volumes of money going into the league there are quite a few clubs in danger of going bust , since there are a good few pro clubs and all the rest are semi-pro I think clubs should bring in finnancial consultants to look at things quite regulary .(maybe so clubs have , but there is certrainly some money being used stupidly by clubs)

I don't think having UCD in the league is of any benefit , they will never get big crowds and it might be better if they weren't around . Dublin City are another club that I can't see ever getting big crowds but since they're not a college team theres no real reason to single them out from a group of clubs that just don't get big crowds and never will .