Seat Belts on Buses - Yea or Nea

BrianD

There's been much talk in the meeja about the American School Bus system and how great it is. Interesting to note that they are having a big debate on seat belts and also that they allow 1-3 children in each seat depending on the age of the children. There's also been a large increase in injuries on schoolbuses in recent years. From their web site:


Why don't large school buses have seat belts like cars do?

Many parents are worried about the contradiction between the need to use seat belts and child passenger seats in automobiles and the lack of these safety devices in school buses, which don't require seat belts. One reason seat belts are not required on school buses is that the greater weight and mass of a school bus means that passengers are less vulnerable in a school bus than in an automobile, and they sit above the usual point of impact. Another is the school bus passengers are not seated near doors or large window openings, so they are not likely to be thrown from the vehicle. Protection from ejection is a primary function of automobile seat belts.

But the main reason is that school buses incorporate a passive restraint system called compartmentalization, which is designed to protect children without seat belts

I've heard that term -- compartmentalization -- in connection with The Great Seat Belt Debate. What exactly does it mean? And why is it important to the debate?

The term was coined in the late 1960s by researchers at UCLA. Broadly, the term compartmentalization. denotes a safety envelope or "compartment" around passengers in school buses. The idea is that if a crash occurs, the child may be thrown around within the compartment but the design of the seat compartment absorbs the crash forces and protects the child. However, the seats currently installed in school buses are different from those recommended by UCLA researchers. The seats they proposed were 8" higher, were more energy absorbing, and were equipped with a massive side arm at the aisle to complete the compartment

What does compartmentalization have to do with why seat belts are not required required in school buses?

Seat belts are not required in school buses over 10,000 lbs. gross vehicle weight rating (G.V.W.R.) because the federal government concluded from available research that compartmentalization is a better safety measure. Some of the key arguments favoring compartmentalization rather than seat belts are as follows:

Compartmentalization is more manageable. The protection exists and is in force without depending on any action by the children or any extra special supervision by drivers or monitors. Seat belts require discipline and supervision to keep them clean, unraveled, in use, and properly adjusted.

Compartmentalization works equally well for one, two or three students per seat. Today's 39-inch wide standard seats may contain three small children or two large ones or any combination in between. Arranging seat belts to properly handle any combination is difficult, if not impossible; the best known solution with seat belts is to restrict each seat to two students and two belts, which has the disadvantage of sharply reducing the carrying capacity of bus fleets.

Compartmentalization works whether students have fully developed abdominal areas or not. Conventional seat belts, which are lap restraints only, are not suitable for small children (under 8 years of age) whose abdominal area and bone structure are not adequately developed to take the force of a lap belt alone. They need the help of chest harnesses also, which adds to the complexity of a proper safety belt solution.

Compartmentalization, once it has done its energy absorbing job, leaves the student free to escape the bus. Seat belts could leave students strapped in, upside down, perhaps unconscious, in burning or flooding buses.

Compartmentalization is most affordable. Although not a part of the DOT reasoning, this is a factor to be considered. In evaluating the cost of seat belts, one should include the cost of retractors and chest restraints, also, since those appear to be needed. Even more important to cost projections is the probability that a seat belt solution will lead to two students per seat and greater spacing between seats, thereby requiring more buses for the same student load.


From: http://www.stnonline.com/stn/

murphaph

I can absolutely see the scientific reasoning behind the US study. The problem is that we do not rely on compartmentalistaion at all here, if we do it's purely by accident in the design. The buses are whatever are cascaded down from town & expessway services. This is one of those sitations where to suggest cost is excessive automatically draws heavy fire from certain quarters. It ALWAYS has to be a cost-benefit driven step or we'd spend billions on installing rubber coverings for every hard surface that one could possibly injure oneself on. In our situation here however, I feel personally that retro-fitting seatbelts would be the way to go on buses where it's possible. Other buses should be phased out. Perhaps a lower speed limit for school buses would be appropriate and certainly the abolition of 3 kids in 2 seats should be a priority.

Imposter

murphaph wrote:

...I feel personally that retro-fitting seatbelts would be the way to go on buses where it's possible.

Surely this could inpede getting people (not just children as surely it should be the same for all bus passengers) out of the bus in the event of an emergency and/or accident.

Fitting seatbelts to buses is a popular call at the moment because of the awful tragedy that happened this week but realistically what use would it have been in this instance? Would more or less children have been trapped/crushed? Would more or less people have been seriously or fatally injured? They wouldn't have stopped the accident that is for sure.

Then you have to question would they be worn? Who would police this? If not policed sufficiently could the seatbelt be a danger (choking etc)? There's a lot more to be considered here than just the cost of installing seatbelts and knee-jerk reactions without solid evidence of how useful/practical they are should be seen for what they are.

Trojan

"Compartmentalization, once it has done its energy absorbing job, leaves the student free to escape the bus. Seat belts could leave students strapped in, upside down, perhaps unconscious, in burning or flooding buses."

(I'm guessing that) seatbelts would have had _some_ negative effect in the crash in Meath since the bus ended up on its side. Hard to know how serious of course.

ishmael whale

Much as what people above are saying. The evidence suggesting seatbelts provide value is far from conclusive, but in any case the issue really seems to be a complete red herring. Presumably it can be argued that children are less resilient than adults in a collision, but at the same time in principle any public transport user is presumably vulnerable and most forms of public transport work on the assumption that many passengers will be standing. Do we establish a general principle that all forms of public transport, including the DART, operate on a seat-only basis? Hardly practical.

In the case of the moment, the cause of the accident is unknown and therefore the potential solution to that cause can hardly be established.

http://www.safety-council.org/info/traffic/schbusbelt.htm
Installing seat-belts on school buses is not a new idea. There is a wealth of research from across North America on whether such a requirement would improve safety. Surprisingly, no safety benefit has ever been proven. In fact, crash tests have shown seat-belts could create more drawbacks than advantages.

In 1984, Transport Canada crash tested three different sizes of school buses (one small bus, one van conversion type bus and one large bus), each containing unbelted and belted test dummies. The tests indicated that the use of a lap belt on forward-facing seats could increase the risk of head injuries during a severe frontal collision. In a head-on collision, the most common type of school bus crash, the occupant's head could hit the seat in front, resulting in severe or fatal head and neck injuries.

Further investigation showed that the combination lap and shoulder belts would require stiffer seats, which could increase injury to unbelted students. Moreover, the shoulder belts increased the chance of abdominal injuries because of submarining. Tests showed children would slip down, risking injuries to organs covered by the lap belts.

Flukey

There is no doubt the seat belts should be in the buses. How useful and safe they are can be debated, but they should be there at the very least. Then of course there is the problem of getting people to actually use them.

Kingsize

Pupose BuilT School Buses Would Be A Start

JackieChan

There is no doubt the seat belts should be in the buses. How useful and safe they are can be debated, but they should be there at the very least. Then of course there is the problem of getting people to actually use them.

I don't think we can compare our instincts regarding seat belts in cars to seat belts in buses for a number of reasons(laid out by OP).
International studies must have been done which can conclusively say which gives the best survival rates over time. You can say that I seat belt can save your life but it can as easily end it(if organs are damaged from the lap portion of the belt).
What has been scientifically(and statistically) shown to be safer?

murphaph

Imposter wrote:

Fitting seatbelts to buses is a popular call at the moment because of the awful tragedy that happened this week but realistically what use would it have been in this instance? Would more or less children have been trapped/crushed? Would more or less people have been seriously or fatally injured? They wouldn't have stopped the accident that is for sure

Hmmm, limiting this discussion to schoolbuses I would advocate a lower speed limit, thus reducing the risk of violent physics, belts & children's bodies causing injury. I believe in this case children were propelled out of window openings and this is one thing seatbelts will prevent. In cars, a lap belt has been shown to a lot of damge to kids especially. This would be different in a bus if a lower speed limit is imposed on said vehicles. It would appear in this accident that the severe swerving manouevre the driver opted for led to the bus overcoming it's centre of gravity (possibly with a little help from the road surface and/or other objects). The bus appeared to have very little damage other than being on it's side. I assume, and it's a big assumption that kids were thrown about pretty violently and possibly crushed by the rolling bus. Seat belts would help stop this. I can totally see the compartmentalisation method having serious merit-but it appears to be a very difficult thing to retrofit compared to adding lap-belts (which folks don't complain about in an aircraft).

International studies are extremely useful, but we must remember that our school bus fleet is a mish-mash of varying types and different solutions for different vehicles will exist.

As for making kids wear belts........

cdebru

murphaph wrote:

. It would appear in this accident that the severe swerving manouevre the driver opted for led to the bus overcoming it's centre of gravity (possibly with a little help from the road surface and/or other objects). .....

I think it is a bit early to presume that the driver opted for a severe swerve

it was a split second decision


undoubtedly the driver swerved to avoid the accident in front as to wether that swerve was severe time will tell


my guess would be that it was an unfortunate accident caused by multiple factors

road works
road suface
narrowed road
wet road
accident in front

possible mechanical cause uneven brake application

murphaph

cdebru wrote:

I think it is a bit early to presume that the driver opted for a severe swerve

it was a split second decision


undoubtedly the driver swerved to avoid the accident in front as to wether that swerve was severe time will tell


my guess would be that it was an unfortunate accident caused by multiple factors

road works
road suface
narrowed road
wet road
accident in front

possible mechanical cause uneven brake application

Yes I agree. I wasn't trying to lay blame at his feet or anything ('opted' was a bad choice of word on my part, it would have been a split second decision no doubt). I was just pointing out that the type of accident was likely not a case of coming to a dead stop from 50mph, it was a roll-over and seat belts might have held kids in their seats.

I also agree that it was an unfortunate accident and there may be no satisfactory outcome even after an enquiry (remember the Cahir viaduct accident was blamed on freak circumstances that could not be prevented in future).

netwhizkid

Yes there should be Seat belts in All buses both school and express type coaches like the one that was involved in that tragic accident in Co. Meath, This should apply to all Public and Private coaches, I yesterday myself took the bus from Killarney to Cork and back again, now the bus was fitted with belts but there seemed to be only one for each of the two seats in a row, I also used the commuter bus in Cork yesterday and found no seat belts fitted and alot of people were also standing (i myself had a seat) they're was no straps hanging down as was there a few years ago for the standing people to hang on to, this could be disastrous, the bus was mostly crawling through traffic but it did get up to about 40 or 50mph once or twice and an accident at this speed could be quite easily fatal. There is a lot of talk that students wouldn't wear seat belts, (they would if one or two kids got thrown off (not literally) the bus for non compliance with the seat belts law. As for the american system why should we adopt anything they do, they are not joking, the biggest idiots that ever sttod foot on this earth, And now they are mulling attacking Iran so they can have more Oil so that they can drive the quarter mile to pick up their overly obese kids (who if they walked to school wouldn't be obese in the first place) in their big huge SUV 10litre engine 5Mile per Gallon jeeps. I hope we never adapt anything them idiots does. That is what our forefather fought for :- the independence to amke our own decisions, not copy some other nations, especially america a country that we have about as much in common with as pluto.

Regards netwhizkid

John R

netwhizkid wrote:

Yes there should be Seat belts in All buses both school and express type coaches like the one that was involved in that tragic accident in Co. Meath, This should apply to all Public and Private coaches

This is already true for most if not all new coaches. It is where older coaches and high density city buses that the issue of seat belts becomes less black and white.

netwhizkid wrote:

I yesterday myself took the bus from Killarney to Cork and back again, now the bus was fitted with belts but there seemed to be only one for each of the two seats in a row,

If there were belts fitted then there would have beed one per seat. All BE coaches dating from the mid '90s onwards had belts for all seats fitted, some of the newer coaches have 3-point belts.
Most private coaches of the same vintage would be similarly fitted. AFAIK it would be difficult now to order a new coach from any of the major builders without seatbelt fitted seats.

netwhizkid wrote:

I also used the commuter bus in Cork yesterday and found no seat belts fitted and alot of people were also standing (i myself had a seat) they're was no straps hanging down as was there a few years ago for the standing people to hang on to, this could be disastrous, the bus was mostly crawling through traffic but it did get up to about 40 or 50mph once or twice and an accident at this speed could be quite easily fatal.

The idea of seat belts for city buses which by extension means no standing allowed would be a huge problem for an effective operation of any city services. It is just not practical or enforceable at all.

netwhizkid wrote:

There is a lot of talk that students wouldn't wear seat belts, (they would if one or two kids got thrown off (not literally) the bus for non compliance with the seat belts law.

Thrown off by who? Drivers? They have more than enough to be doing when the bus is moving without straining to look in the cabin mirror to monitor which passengers are wearing belts. A distracted driver is a much worse threat to safety than an un-belted passenger.

As far as current seat belt use goes, with a few exceptions they are not used, not even in the last few days with all the media coverage has this changed. There is a post on another messageboard from a driver who yesterday requested numerous times that passengers use the belts provided, none of them did, he was then ignored when he told some schoolkids to stop moving about the bus.

Considering that only about 50% of kids in cars wear belts what is the realistic % of kids on schoolbuses that can be made wear the things?

And then what effect will it have on fatality/injury figures?

Obviously seatbelts are better than no seatbelts but to what extent?

The figures show that the fatality rates for bus travel are already very low compared to car travel, will seatbelts have any noticeable effect on reducing them further? In the end it has to come down to some sort of cost/benefit analysis. Like it or not everything does, if we really wanted to slash the road fatalities in this country we could impose a blanket 30 MPH speed limit and have all vehicles restricted to this. The fatality rates would drop to nothing overnight as apart from the odd isolated incident cars would simply not be going fast enough to kill anyone. Why don't we do that then? Because the benefit is not considered great enough for the cost.

The figures speak for themselves, fatal bus accidents are a rarity in this country, according to the EU figures here there are on average a little over 1 per year including pedestrian casualties.