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Keano_sli

UEFA holds firm on Liverpool decision
LONDON, May 26 (AFP) - Liverpool's stunning comeback win in the European Champions League final has not convinced UEFA to change the rules and allow them to defend the title next season.
The Merseysides came back from 0-3 down at half-time to defeat mighty AC Milan of Italy on penalties in Istanbul late Wednesday in one of the most gripping finals of all time.
But their lowly fifth place finish in the English Premiership means that they have not qualified for next season's competition according to the rules of UEFA, European football's governing body.
Title-holders do not qualify automatically to defend the trophy.
UEFA spokesman William Gaillard said that despite the emotion surrounding Liverpool's win, UEFA body had no plans to change the rules at the moment.
Gaillard insisted the precedent set in the 2000-01 season, when Real Madrid defended the cup despite finishing fifth because the Spanish football federation decided to hand them Real Zaragoza's place, would make no difference.
"The rules are what they are," Gaillard told BBC Radio Five LIve.
"They were used already once when Real Madrid won...... and actually were not among the qualifiers in the Spanish league.
"The Spanish FA told us they would replace the fourth-placed team - Real Zaragoza - with Real Madrid.
"It is a tough decision to make but it is not for us to make, it is for the (English) FA and they told us Everton would be the fourth English club.
"Rules are rules and they were passed for a very good reason."
The English FA, however are likely to step up the pressure on the Geneva-based organisation to persuade them to allow an unprecedented five English teams in Europe.
The final decision is expected to be made at the UEFA executive committee meeting in Manchester on June 17.




Will this take some of the Gloss of the Victory for Liverpool fans? and has it cheered up any of the ABL's out there?
In My Opinion 5 English teams in the CL would be good for the Premiership as it would attract a lot higher quality of player and make the league a tighter affair which I think we would all like to see, Chelsea having it won by christmas was a dissapointment to all, even some Chelsea fans I'd imagine

astrofool

Well, they should either make the holders place be a seperate place completely, and country independent, or have it as it is now where liverpool won't get in.

i.e. if Milan had won, then they get the TH place, and the next 4 italian teams get in, if Celtic win, Scotland would then have 3 teams in it the next year.

Forcing local associations to make the decision is a cop out, and will always leave a team unfairly treated, and a precedent would never be set, as it will always be up to each country. i.e. the spanish FA were always going to favour rich real madrid over zaragoza, just as the english FA wouldn't particularly benefit by having liverpool in ahead of everton.

RuggieBear

that makes sense to me Astrofool.

Have to admit that there is a little evil part of me that would find it hilarious if liverpool as Champions couldn't defend the Champions league...but it's typical of UEFA to pass the buck....how difficult would it be to allow an extra team into the qualifiers

_blank_

RuggieBear wrote:

....how difficult would it be to allow an extra team into the qualifiers

Very.

There are 32 teams already qualified for the 1st qualifying round, 16 for the 2nd and 16 more for the 3rd.

16 have already qualified for the group stages too.

Where do you propose fitting Liverpool in?

SteM

RuggieBear wrote:

that makes sense to me Astrofool.

Have to admit that there is a little evil part of me that would find it hilarious if liverpool as Champions couldn't defend the Champions league...but it's typical of UEFA to pass the buck....how difficult would it be to allow an extra team into the qualifiers

I think logistically it would be quite difficult for UEFA to slip Liverpool in without removing a team that's there already as it stands atm. Also, surely if you couldn't put the holders in to the qualifing rounds? Would they not have to be seeded?

Both UEFA and the FA are bottling this big time - it's like they are both waiting to see who will flinch first.

RuggieBear

tbh i'm probably ytalking out of my arse again here but how about throwing them into the qualifying rounds with the irish, welsh, liechteinstein, etc champions

Maybe some sort of play off against the winners of the third Q round or something

_blank_

RuggieBear wrote:

tbh i'm probably ytalking out of my arse again here

You said it.

I can't agree with your suggestion. It wouls mean 33 teams in that round, or who do you propose be shunted out.

Or, if you propose a pre-qualifying tie, who with?

It simply wouldn't fair on the teams involved.

Imposter

Throw them into the UEFA cup. The rules were there before both the Premiership and the CL started so they knew what was what.

Makaveli

Keano_sli wrote:

Will this take some of the Gloss of the Victory for Liverpool fans?

As of right now, no.
In fairness Everton deserve to go through more than Liverpool because of league form. If Liverpool are only in the UEFA cup next season then the fans should just be happy with the success this season and the team can just focus on making sure they qualify at the end of 05/06.

RE*AC*TOR

Don't forget the Super Cup and World Club Championships

_blank_

TNS Llansantffraid sell outs

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/league_of_wales/4582621.stm

RuggieBear

seansouth wrote:

You said it.

lol...

but that welshteam is kinda what i had in mind...minnows have no chance of getting far but imagine champions of Ireland (emm, not linfield ) playing in Landsdowne Rd against the champions of Europe...missed opportunity i reckon. Lansdowne sold out with high prices to fleece the local pool fans.....

RE*AC*TOR

as much as it would be great to have liverpool back in next season - that's not the right route to take - it would set a bad precedent.

RuggieBear

but i reckon some precident has to be set...in my mind the champions of europe have to be allowed defend the title.

or perhaps th liverpool fans don't want to risk getting humiliated, like Porto this year by getting knocked out in the first round, next season (j/king)

LFCFan

Imposter wrote:

Throw them into the UEFA cup. The rules were there before both the Premiership and the CL started so they knew what was what.

It was always a case that the Champions got to defend their title so back in the days of the European Cup when only the league winners got in, if a team won it and didn't win their domestic title in the same year, there would be 2 teams from that country in the following years competition. I can't see why it should be the same now.

There should be scope for the winners to enter in the case where they don't qualify through their league position. It's unthinkable that the Champions of Europe cannot defend their title. It stinks!

_blank_

RuggieBear wrote:

but that welshteam is kinda what i had in mind...minnows have no chance of getting far but imagine champions of Ireland (emm, not linfield ) playing in Landsdowne Rd against the champions of Europe...missed opportunity i reckon. Lansdowne sold out with high prices to fleece the local pool fans.....

I take offence at that minnows comment. Just because they "have no chance" doesn't mean the opportunity should be taken from them. What you propose is a big competition for only "big" teams.

If Shelbourne got Liverpool, and indeed played them in Lansdowne, it would be farcial. Sure, 24,000 people came to support Shels against Depor last summer, but if it was Liverpool then there would be 23,500 people supporting Liverpool. Would Shels fans like myself even get a ticket?

These are real concerns, and not only affecting Shels, but all champions of the so called smaller leagues, Levadia Tallinn for example.

RuggieBear

seansouth wrote:

I take offence at that minnows comment. Just because they "have no chance" doesn't mean the opportunity should be taken from them. What you propose is a big competition for only "big" teams.

If Shelbourne got Liverpool, and indeed played them in Lansdowne, it would be farcical. Sure, 24,000 people came to support Shels against Depor last summer, but if it was Liverpool then there would be 23,500 people supporting Liverpool. Would Shels fans like myself even get a ticket?

These are real concerns, and not only affecting Shels, but all champions of the so called smaller leagues, Levadia Tallinn for example.

when my team, Bray , played in the Cup Winners Cup, we got knocked out by some piece of **** turkish team...we all knew we hadn't a hope. I would have preferred a gurranted big pay day against a famous team than to get knocked out by a nobody team.
Re: a Shels Liverpool game....all real shels fans would get tickets thru the club and then you ****ing fleece the pool fans...lodsa money

Brian017

The 1st Round CL Qualifers take in Mid July if I remember correctly, which means that play-off would have to take place In June. This only allows the players a 2-3 week break after a gruelling 9 month season

Guy:Incognito

Brian017 wrote:

The 1st Round CL Qualifers take in Mid July if I remember correctly, which means that play-off would have to take place In June. This only allows the players a 2-3 week break after a gruelling 9 month season

None of the first teamers would be playing, the kids would be easily good enough to get through the first couple of rounds.

@seansouth. The option of a shels - liverpool game would be a good one, and it would be at the request of shels , knowing their not getting far, but would like a big payday V the champions. Maybe it could be the first game in croke park and have 65000 fans at it. I'm sure the cash would come in handy.

TheMonster

LFCFan wrote:

It was always a case that the Champions got to defend their title so back in the days of the European Cup when only the league winners got in, if a team won it and didn't win their domestic title in the same year, there would be 2 teams from that country in the following years competition. I can't see why it should be the same now.

Because the rules don't allow it :rolleyes:

_blank_

Stekelly wrote:

@seansouth. The option of a shels - liverpool game would be a good one, and it would be at the request of shels , knowing their not getting far, but would like a big payday V the champions. Maybe it could be the first game in croke park and have 65000 fans at it. I'm sure the cash would come in handy.

Well, Shels are seeded in the first round, which equals a very good chance of getting to the Second round. I have no interest in laying down to be raped by any club, be they European Champions or not.

Look, the rules are that they don't qualify. End Of.

Guy:Incognito

seansouth wrote:

Look, the rules are that they don't qualify. End Of.

Ah but therin lies the problem. The rules most certainly do not say that, the fa just bottled it in the hope that UEFA back down

_blank_

Stekelly wrote:

Ah but therin lies the problem. The rules most certainly do not say that, the fa just bottled it in the hope that UEFA back down

What have the FA bottled?

It was stated at the start of the season that first, second, third and fourth in the league would compete in the Champions League as England's representatives. There is no stipulation by UEFA that the previous year's winners would gain access. Liverpool finished fifth in the league, ergo, no Champions League.

RE*AC*TOR

The precedent was set when The Spanish FA let Real Madrid in over Zaragoza. The FA want their cake and eat it.

It would be hard on Zaragoza now to say they could've played if UEFA had given Madrid an extra place.

_blank_

Exactly. It was the Spanish FA that did it. Not UEFA.

TheMonster

True - the Spanish FA bowed to Real Madrid pressure. Zaragoza will prob be seeking compenation if UEFA allow 5 English teams, loss of Earnings and all that. They didn't change the rules in 2001 and now with the same rules can't make an exception, if it had not happened before then maybe but the precedent is not to give the holders an extra place.

astrofool

There is no precedent set when UEFA states they will leave it up to other leagues. If the precedent was set, then it would NOT be up to the FA. It would be like us moving the drinking age to 21, because the US set the precedent.

SteM

Real Zaragoza were paid quite a bit by the Spanish FA when their spot was given to Real Madrid iirc.

This is a really interesting scenario but I can see Liverpool being in the CL tournament when it starts next season. I'm not sure how but I hope it's not through this Welsh nonsense.

Guy:Incognito

seansouth wrote:

It was stated at the start of the season that first, second, third and fourth in the league would compete in the Champions League as England's representatives. .

But thats the thing, it wasnt, it was ASSUMED. The only thing that was actually in writing was last year when they said Arsenal or Chelsea would be put in ahead of the 4th place team if they win it and finish 5th.

theCzar

So long as Everton are in, I don't care.

no wait, that's a lie. I hope Liverpool don't 'cause I'm small minded and bitter, but man enough to admit it.

Ronan|Raven

I really couldnt care less either way to have won it last night will cushion the blow. Finished 5th in the league outside of the places so be it. Uefa change their minds then so be it.

KdjaCL

seansouth wrote:

TNS Llansantffraid sell outs

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/league_of_wales/4582621.stm

Altho your a nice guy , you do realise Ollie would sell you down the canal just as fast if the option arose. I hope it does



kdjac

Chucky the tree

just give us the money we would earn instead, everyones happy then.

mike65

Guys wake up. Money talks.

First if the Champions cant defend the title then the competition is devalued.
Everyone will want to be the team that knocks out the title holders. Esp Chelsea, Man Utd, Arsenal, Everton and er Milan!

Now the money - the Champions League is funded in large part by televsion money. And a large part of that is ITV and Sky cash. They will want Liverpool
in the competition for those big live games that draw in ad revenue. The main sponsers like Mastercard, Ford and Henieken (Amstel) etc want the biggest names too. Thier money is also important.

Methinks the Big Money will come up with a solution.

Mike.

Guy:Incognito

TBH it helps Liverpool look better next season, cos they can always maintain that they could have won back to back titles only Uefa stopped them.

Chucky the tree

Stekelly wrote:

TBH it helps Liverpool look better next season, cos they can always maintain that they could have won back to back titles only Uefa stopped them.

excactly.

The only reason i want to be allowed in is because of the money. I dont know if we will win it next year, unlikely. Also i want the team to concetrate 100% on the league.

cregser

Chucky the tree wrote:

The only reason i want to be allowed in is because of the money. I dont know if we will win it next year, unlikely. Also i want the team to concetrate 100% on the league.

I'm worried that we get distracted by that world club cup. When is that on?

Winning the CL must partly make up for the money lost not qualifying next year. The chairman has not said anything about tightening Benitez's purse. But Dave Moore would probably remorgage his house for Raffa at this stage!

Guy:Incognito

cregser wrote:

I'm worried that we get distracted by that world club cup. When is that on?

We could just pull out of the FA cup, like Utd did when they won the CL and like we did this season.

CorkMan

IMO The Pool should get put in ahead of Everton.

And NOT by UEFA, but by the English FA putting Liverpool up to 4th place and Everton down to 5th.

TheMonster

CorkMan wrote:

IMO The Pool should get put in ahead of Everton.

And NOT by UEFA, but by the English FA putting Liverpool up to 4th place and Everton down to 5th.

Hello - Everton fulfilled the qualifying criteria not Liverpool :rolleyes:
Bottom line without opening a can of worms there is no way Liverpool can get in.
FA Rules say top 4 teams
UEFA Rules say 4 teams from England

The rules shouldl not be retrospectively changed becuase Liverpool are not good enough to qualify on Merit - The current rules have no mention of winning the trophy as being qualification.

spockety

seansouth wrote:

Very.

There are 32 teams already qualified for the 1st qualifying round, 16 for the 2nd and 16 more for the 3rd.

16 have already qualified for the group stages too.

Where do you propose fitting Liverpool in?

In the place reserved at the group stage for "TH", ie title holders.
It is on the UEFA site. No country or team has to lose out here.

The only thing preventing Liverpool from being given the TH place is the rule preventing more than 4 teams from any one country coming in. There is no issue with actually accomodating them within the structure already in place.

Look at this, and tell me exactly where in this table there is a team who has to lose out as a result of Liverpool taking that "TH" spot?

http://www.uefa.com/competitions/UCL/news/Kind=1/newsId=268457.html

TheMonster

spockety wrote:

In the place reserved at the group stage for "TH", ie title holders.
It is on the UEFA site. No country or team has to lose out here.

The only thing preventing Liverpool from being given the TH place is the rule preventing more than 4 teams from any one country coming in. There is no issue with actually accomodating them within the structure already in place.

Look at this, and tell me exactly where in this table there is a team who has to lose out as a result of Liverpool taking that "TH" spot?

http://www.uefa.com/competitions/UCL/news/Kind=1/newsId=268457.html

So why weren't the rules changed to allow Real Madrid qualify as holders in 2001.

spockety

Perhaps because the Spanish FA didn't bother their arses to petition UEFA for a rule change allowing more than 4 teams in?

Besides, as I said, look at the table, and find me a team or country that would have to be displaced if Liverpool were allowed in as TH.

fade2black

http://www.premierpredictions.com/untitled.jpg

Guy:Incognito

TheMonster wrote:

.
FA Rules say top 4 teams
UEFA Rules say 4 teams from England
.

Fa dont have anything concrete to say top 4, just assumption and precident. And why were they willing to retrospectivly change it last year?

~Rebel~

TheMonster wrote:

So why weren't the rules changed to allow Real Madrid qualify as holders in 2001.

The Spanish were quite happy to compensate Zaragoza for Real to take their place, didn't really bother battling with UEFA.

TheMonster

Stekelly wrote:

Fa dont have anything concrete to say top 4, just assumption and precident. And why were they willing to retrospectivly change it last year?

The FA have made their decision - top 4 qualify.

spockety

TheMonster wrote:

The FA have made their decision - top 4 qualify.

Nobody is placing any onus on the FA here at all.
Have you bothered reading what I have said? Have you bothered looking at that UEFA site?

Have you bothered understanding that the ONLY thing standing in the way of Liverpool being in next years CL is the UEFA rule stating that there can be a maximum of 4 teams from any one country in it?

Have you bothered understanding that no other country's football association, or no other team in Europe need necessarily be put out by Liverpool being put into the CL at the group stages?

Have you bothered understanding that there is no logistical problem in putting Liverpool into the Champions League based on UEFA's own entry table?

Guy:Incognito

dont avoid what I said like a spoilt child, why were they willing to change their mind last year, which no-one would have had a problem with?

Tippex

To be honest if I were an everton fan I would be totally disgusted if the FA turn around and do what the Spanish FA did. It would take compensation of at least £20 million I would say, never mind increasing the tension between both Liverpool and Everton.
Personally I can't see the FA doing that because it will effectively make a mockery of the premiership.

Yes the Title holders should be in the competition but the rules are rules.

I am also of the opinion that only the "Champions" of each league should be in the competition which would mean arsenal, UTD (My team) and everton would not be in the tournament.

And yes this would also have meant that UTD would not have been in the tournament in 99 when we won it.

Guy:Incognito

Tippex wrote:

Yes the Title holders should be in the competition but the rules are rules.

Why does everyone keep saying that, there is NO rule to say that EVerton get a place becaus ethey finish fourth,

And for the record, I dont want Liverpool to get in ahead of Everton at this stage, but if UEFA decide to let Liverpool have a place as title holders, great. If not who cares, I seriously doubt we'll retain it as it's a very difficult thing to do, the UEFA cup is entirely winnable and should we do that then a point would have been made.