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Caesar_Bojangle

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somano

Here's my view:

- would be great if Liverpool were allowed in. If at expense of Everton, they would sue FA and would probably win. Ditto a team from Turkey or Poland if they lost their place because of rule changes. Maybe even Real Zaragoza would end up suing. I think most would think that it is unfair that the rules don't permit Liverpool's entry.

- Have UEFA said anything about changing the rules for next season ? Should be the Winners of the competition plus next 3 in league (if that country gets 4) and 4 places if not champions. This would solve problems.

- I think sponsors are going to put big pressure on UEFA, with Amstel gone Heineken could score great brownie points in Europe by fighting for Liverpool's corner. Imagine if Playstation sales were dented in UK etc etc MONEY is what it is all about and the Liverpool brand, like Real Madrid, Chelsea and MAn U are too powerful to ignore. Sponsors guest ?

- there is a good chance that Liverpool would be beaten in early rounds as their squad is going to be ripped apart and while the winning has been very welcome especially the money, rebuilding the team is Rafa's main priority. It wouldn't be the end of the world if Liverpool didn't get through. I honestly believe Liverpool would have less chance of retaining it next year as we would miss Harry Kewell :rolleyes:

- I don't think the Welsh team thing can work otherwise you could have someone offering Shamrock Rovers a playoff etc etc.

- UEFA didn't really think that this problem would occur especially at half time. I genuinely think that a lot of the big and small federations would support their inclusion and then change rules so this cannot happen again however the legal action could end up with an injunction being taken in July less than 8 weeks away and ruining the competition.

somano

with Amstel gone Heineken could score great brownie points in Europe by fighting for Liverpool's corner.

oops maybe on mature reflection, Heineken will PROBABLY do whatever they can to stop Liverpool from getting in !

PHB

UEFA cup ain't huge money, I think Liverpool could afford it.
That'd be a really good thing for Liverpools season.

Liverpool are like Porto last year.
Sure we'd like em in the cup, but advertising wise they aren't huge.
Liverpool are one of the most provinical teams to ever have existed, besides the Irish support, they have very very little foreign support, foreign being outside liverpool

mike65

PHB wrote:

Sure we'd like em in the cup, but advertising wise they aren't huge.
Liverpool are one of the most provinical teams to ever have existed, besides the Irish support, they have very very little foreign support, foreign being outside liverpool

ROFL! Liverpool have the second largest fan-base of any UK club (after Man Utd) and one of the biggest anywhere. The idea the following is localised to Liverpool and its province Ireland (!) is mad. I was listening to the BBC 5 live phone in after the game and ppl were e-mailing from every corner of the planet. You only need to do some googling for Liverpool fan clubs etc....

PHB

I'm sure thats the case, I'm sure they've fans world-wide, but I meant in terms of business. Sorry should have made that clear.

Thanx 4 The Fish

PHB wrote:

Liverpool are one of the most provinical teams to ever have existed, besides the Irish support, they have very very little foreign support, foreign being outside liverpool

CL Final watched by a world record 150m people.

beating the previous record of 135m when AC Milan took on Juventus in the 2003 final. So it was not just because many people wanted to see AC.

There are an estimated 100,000 Liverpool supporters in Malaysia alone.

Another couple of hundred thousand in the US and Canada with China boasting a similar amount of reds fans (not the american type from Old trafford)

Very very little foreign support ???

Below is a quick list of countries where once can join an Official LFC supporters club.

AUSTRALIA
AZERBAIJAN
CANADA
CHINA
GHANA
INDONESIA
JAPAN
MALAYSIA
MAURITIUS
NEW ZEALAND
SINGAPORE
SOUTH AFRICA
THAILAND
UNITED STATES
ZAMBIA
IRELAND
SCOTLAND
WALES
BELGIUM
CYPRUS
DENMARK
FAROE ISLANDS
FRANCE
GERMANY
GIBRALTAR
GREECE
ICELAND
ITALY
LUXEMBOURG
MALTA
NETHERLANDS, THE
NORWAY
SPAIN
SWEDEN
SWITZERLAND

Regardless of how big any other teams fanbase is Liverpool with Official support in no less than 35 countries can hardly be called provincial :rolleyes:

PHB

Yeh, I havn't made myself clear.

Man Utd technically have a fanbase of 70 million, but that isn't the people who would buy Man Utd produce, just like Liverpool.
Their actual market is very localised

mike65

That I agree with, clearly with regard to sellling overpriced tat to gullible "fans" Man Utd are streets ahead 'cos of sustained success which the fan-boys love, most of whom will vannish when the good times cease (as they will at some point). I dont know how many shirts etc Liverpool sell but it'll be more now. I dunno how much the sponsers money is worth compared to the other big clubs but its proberly not too far off.

Mike.

somano

they have very very little foreign support, foreign being outside liverpool

You are joking ? Have you ever been to Norway, Finland, Singapore, Thailand, Japan or Australia ? Liverpool mad. Before Ferguson was around Liverpool fans outnumbered Man U in my schooldays by about 5 to 1. Nowadays Man U are the most popular with school kids but not as popular as they were say 6 years ago, kids are also following Real Madrid (Beckham & Owen), Barcelona etc.

My nephew told me that 10 boys have ditched Man U in their class for support of Liverpool and that was before the Final. Multinationals don't care who is flavour of the month as long as they are getting their message across to a wide audience.

Big Ears

somano wrote:

Here's my view:

- would be great if Liverpool were allowed in. If at expense of Everton, they would sue FA and would probably win. Ditto a team from Turkey or Poland if they lost their place because of rule changes. Maybe even Real Zaragoza would end up suing. I think most would think that it is unfair that the rules don't permit Liverpool's entry.

The FA never stated the criteria to qualify at the start of the season , therefore they can chose any 4 English teams to put forward , they could put Palace ahead of Chelsea if they liked and Chelsea couldn't sue . Zaragoza have already received compensation from the Spanish FA , a team from Turkey or Poland wouldn't lose their place either they would just be put back a round( which is only being put back to where the coefficiants rank them)

eirebhoy

Jivin Turkey wrote:

There is a spot there for the TH, qualified or not. If Celtic were to win it, it just throws up the same scenario that there would only be 11 teams to play the winners of the twelve 1st round qualifying games. Who moves up/down?

There is no issue here apart from UEFA not wanting five teams from a league, which is ridiculous. The tournie can easily accomodate Liverpool in the TH spot, after all they are the TH. No one loses out.

I haven't read any other posts posted after this so it might have been answered already. I'll try to explain this as best I can comparing Celtic (or any other team qualified through their domestic league) and Liverpool. If Celtic won the CL the following happens:

• They get the TH spot and get automatic entry into the group stages (instead of the QR2).
• That leaves an extra spot in QR2.
• What happens is the Turkish team goes into QR3 (instead of the group stages)
• that leaves 33 teams in QR3.
• The Polish team then moves down to QR2 and fills the extra spot.

If Liverpool were allowed entry into the CL group stages the following happens:

• There are 33 teams in the group stages so the league with the lowest coefficent has to drop out. In this case the Turkish team.
• The Turkish team moves down to QR3 leaving it with 33 teams.
• The Polish team will have to drop down to QR2 leaving that with an extra team.
• The Slovakian team will then have to drop down to QR1 to fit them in.
• QR1 then has an extra team meaning someone will have to drop out to fit Liverpool in.

I have explained it that way for simplicity. That is not exactly the way it happens. What I mean is that the winners of the Turkish league knew at the start of the season that they would enter into QR3. Since there is an extra space in the group stages (and usually always is because the winner of the CL normally qualifies for the group stages through their league anyway) the Turkish team take that space. It goes that way all the way down.

But all you need to know is that the TH space is used for a team that has qualified for whatever round of the CL to give them an automatic space in the group stages. This has used way too many brain cells up.

somano

I can't be biased here as I do believe it would be very unfair on Everton if the FA didn't let them in or Chelsea, Man U or Arsenal for that matter. No one really believed there would be a problem but the beauty of sport is such, that quagmires like this can be thrown up from time to time. I don't envy UEFA.

nlgbbbblth

somano wrote:

I can't be biased here as I do believe it would be very unfair on Everton if the FA didn't let them in or Chelsea, Man U or Arsenal for that matter. No one really believed there would be a problem but the beauty of sport is such, that quagmires like this can be thrown up from time to time. I don't envy UEFA.

Let Everton in, let Liverpool in, let Arsenal and Chelsea in.

Kick Man Utd out - as punishment for their arrogant refusal to take part in the FA Cup back in 2000.

Scum.

Jivin Turkey

Ive finally got my head around this, but I still dont think its a problem at all.

eirebhoy wrote:

If Liverpool were allowed entry into the CL group stages the following happens:

• There are 33 teams in the group stages so the league with the lowest coefficent has to drop out. In this case the Turkish team.
• The Turkish team moves down to QR3 leaving it with 33 teams.
• The Polish team will have to drop down to QR2 leaving that with an extra team.
• The Slovakian team will then have to drop down to QR1 to fit them in.
• QR1 then has an extra team meaning someone will have to drop out to fit Liverpool in.

Liverpool get put into the group stages with a Czech team (I think they have moved above Turkey now, or according to this anyway) move down. The domino continues and we have an extra team, now there are two choices.

(i) The lowest two ranked teams FAR and KAZ playoff in a preliminary stage

or

(ii) and a solution that will keep all the white knights intent on not seeing a small team done over by letting Liverpool in, they let in the three teams they exclude, LIE, AND, and SMR and they playoff with whatever number of the lowest ranked teams it takes in a preliminary round to ensure that only 32 are in the QR1. I trust that all the people bleating that a small team would get done over by Liverpool are just as concerned with these young lads and its not some issue they have with LFC.

eirebhoy wrote:

I have explained it that way for simplicity. That is not exactly the way it happens. What I mean is that the winners of the Turkish league knew at the start of the season that they would enter into QR3. Since there is an extra space in the group stages (and usually always is because the winner of the CL normally qualifies for the group stages through their league anyway) the Turkish team take that space. It goes that way all the way down.

But all you need to know is that the TH space is used for a team that has qualified for whatever round of the CL to give them an automatic space in the group stages. This has used way too many brain cells up.

Thats not actually what happens, its the Czech team that move down if the winner doesnt qualify automatically, not Turkey moving up. If you count the teams on the link above it gives 15 automatic qualifiers, plus 9 from the QR3, and then the TH. If say Celtic were TH they would take the Czechs place.

But to get aside from all this technical debate, a simple solution is to move the bottom two ranked teams to a playoff into QR1 proper, and then shift all the others down one as pointed out, you then have 32 in QR1. And before people go ranting on that why should the draw be altered to suit Liverpool, teams get jigged around at the expense of the title holders every year but I never saw anyone complain about it before.

Take it

nlgbbbblth wrote:

Let Everton in, let Liverpool in, let Arsenal and Chelsea in.

Kick Man Utd out - as punishment for their arrogant refusal to take part in the FA Cup back in 2000.

Scum.

good god you talk some sh*te

i would be v disapointted not to see liverpool in the CL but its not up to Liverpool UEFA will have to make a very difficult decision, people keep going on about the rules state this and that blah blah, the rules state jack!!, thats why there is all this confusion as there was NO RULES in place for this situation and what seemed to be rules last season has changed this season!!

eirebhoy

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Thats not actually what happens, its the Czech team that move down if the winner doesnt qualify automatically, not Turkey moving up.

No, the Czech team are guaranteed a place in the group stages no matter what happens. Since the CL began, the CL winner nearly always qualified for the group stages through their league so the 10th placed country (in this case Turkey) would get into the group stages as there was a free space there.

andyman

I agree and disagree about what has been said.

I agree that the holders should be allowed defend their crown...but must start from the 1st Qualifying stage.

But this would mean that 1 of the teams in the 1st Qualifying stage would lose theie place, and that could possibly be Shels.

Jivin Turkey

eirebhoy wrote:

No, the Czech team are guaranteed a place in the group stages no matter what happens. Since the CL began, the CL winner nearly always qualified for the group stages through their league so the 10th placed country (in this case Turkey) would get into the group stages as there was a free space there.

According to that link to uefa.com, there are 15 places allocated to countries for the group stages, a further 9 teams come in from QR3. Making 24, 8 groups of 3. The Turkish team doesnt come into it at all whether the winner of the CL qualifies automatically or not.

If say Celtic won the CL they would move from QR2 to the groups automatically, and one of the 15 would have to drop into QR3. Im assuming it would be the Czechs because they are bottom of that list.

eirebhoy

Jivin Turkey wrote:

According to that link to uefa.com, there are 15 places allocated to countries for the group stages, a further 9 teams come in from QR3. Making 24, 8 groups of 3. The Turkish team doesnt come into it at all whether the winner of the CL qualifies automatically or not.

If say Celtic won the CL they would move from QR2 to the groups automatically, and one of the 15 would have to drop into QR3. Im assuming it would be the Czechs because they are bottom of that list.

I'm right. :mad:

16 teams are in the CL group stage (including the TH). Another 16 join them from the QR3. Since the TH in this case (and in most cases) have already qualified for the group stages through their league/or can't qualify for the CL through their league. That leaves 1 space in the group stages and it goes to the Turkish team.

The easier way to explain it is that there are 15 teams in the group stages and 16 join them from QR3. That leaves 31 so the Turkish team are promoted.

Kingp35

eirebhoy wrote:

I'm right. :mad:

16 teams are in the CL group stage (including the TH). Another 16 join them from the QR3. Since the TH in this case (and in most cases) have already qualified for the group stages through their league/or can't qualify for the CL through their league. That leaves 1 space in the group stages and it goes to the Turkish team.

The easier way to explain it is that there are 15 teams in the group stages and 16 join them from QR3. That leaves 31 so the Turkish team are promoted.

eirebhoy is right. Jivin turkey you couldnt be more wrong. UEFA goes by the assumption that the tournament holders will have the ability to qualify again. Fair assumption if you ask me. There is no way they can put liverpool in without taking a spot away from somebody else. That is what is not fair. Its UEFAs f**k up for their assumption but those are the rules and eirebhoy is right

Jivin Turkey

eirebhoy wrote:

I'm right. :mad:

16 teams are in the CL group stage (including the TH). Another 16 join them from the QR3. Since the TH in this case (and in most cases) have already qualified for the group stages through their league/or can't qualify for the CL through their league. That leaves 1 space in the group stages and it goes to the Turkish team.

The easier way to explain it is that there are 15 teams in the group stages and 16 join them from QR3. That leaves 31 so the Turkish team are promoted.

My bad. I was forgetting to add the teams who qualify from QR2 into QR3.

But since you have now explained the workings of it to me, why should the Turkish team get promoted to make the 32? Their coefficient doesnt warrant it. Why not give Liverpool the TH spot? Thats what my original thought was. Or do I just have a mental problem and cant understand this?

Big Ears

andyman wrote:

But this would mean that 1 of the teams in the 1st Qualifying stage would lose theie place, and that could possibly be Shels.

Shels being seeded would mean it wouldn't happen .

Balfa

This is a good decision. Sure, they changed the rules not long ago so that the world cup winner wouldn't get a free ride back in four years, and would still have to qualify like everyone else. If you win a tournament and don't qualify for the next one, that just means you're inconsistent, and tough luck.

Take it

World cup is different no use in compairing as in the world cup automatic qualifing means no real match practice before the next tournament

Guy:Incognito

Take it wrote:

World cup is different no use in compairing as in the world cup automatic qualifing means no real match practice before the next tournament

Exactly, a two year spell without a competitive game is not what any team wants when they are preparing for a competition. Brazil are NEVER going to fail to qualify, so it's a win win for them.

~Rebel~

Whats the difference between an extra place (5th) for england being added (currently not allowed) and an extra place (4th) for Germany being added (allowed)? Surely the only problem is that they dont want a 5th english team and thats it.
If an extra team can be added if the winner comes from germany (or any other country with less then 4 spots) and finishes outside the top 3 domestically then why (logistically) cant a team from a country with 4 spots not be added in exactly the same way, its still just an extra team..

spockety

~Rebel~ wrote:

Whats the difference between an extra place (5th) for england being added (currently not allowed) and an extra place (4th) for Germany being added (allowed)? Surely the only problem is that they dont want a 5th english team and thats it.
If an extra team can be added if the winner comes from germany (or any other country with less then 4 spots) and finishes outside the top 3 domestically then why (logistically) cant a team from a country with 4 spots not be added in exactly the same way, its still just an extra team..

.. nail... on the... head.

astrofool

they almost didn't last time, if people remember, I think they had the oceania play off, or were one place above.

I don't think Denmark defended their euro '92 title either (correct me if wrong), but you defo have to qualify for it.

France had a long run without competitive world cup qualifier games because they hosted and won the tournament, so missed two cycles in a row.

PHB

Because the assumption is, and I think its valid, is that a 5th place team can't possibly deserve to be in the Champions League.

RuggieBear

BBC 5 live have an interview with one of the members of the UEFA comitee/boards who will decide Liverpools fate...as far as he is concerned "rules are rules" and it is too late to change them and liverpool will not be in next seasons champions league.

Shred

Here's the link from BBC for that: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/4598737.stm

There seems to be some confusion or breakdown in communication within UEFA - last week William Gaillard (communications director) said "they can't change the rules" yet the president of UEFA ,Lennart Johansson, has said several times that if a rule needs to be changed they would have to consider it I wish they'd make their mind up :rolleyes:

Dempsey

astrofool wrote:

France had a long run without competitive world cup qualifier games because they hosted and won the tournament, so missed two cycles in a row.

That has changed, only the hosting nation gets automatic qualification. It happened around the 2002 world cup

TheMonster

TBH - it is is hard for UEFA to come up with a solution that doesn't leave them open to legal action.

Admit Liverpool along with 4 English clubs - Real Zaragoza have a claim
Remove Everton and admit Liverpool - Everton have a claim
Not admit Liverpool - Liverpool have no claim as the rules were in place.

RE*AC*TOR

True but Zaragoza's claim would be with the Spanish FA really - not with UEFA...

Guy:Incognito

astrofool wrote:

France had a long run without competitive world cup qualifier games because they hosted and won the tournament, so missed two cycles in a row.

Exactly, and look how well they did.

Guy:Incognito

PHB wrote:

Because the assumption is, and I think its valid, is that a 5th place team can't possibly deserve to be in the Champions League.

But they can deserve to win it?

Big Ears

RE*AC*TOR wrote:

True but Zaragoza's claim would be with the Spanish FA really - not with UEFA...

and the Spanish Fa already compensated them so they've no claim .

Guy:Incognito

RE*AC*TOR wrote:

True but Zaragoza's claim would be with the Spanish FA really - not with UEFA...

As would Liverpools with the english fa.

Big Ears

TheMonster wrote:

TBH - it is is hard for UEFA to come up with a solution that doesn't leave them open to legal action.

Admit Liverpool along with 4 English clubs - Real Zaragoza have a claim
Remove Everton and admit Liverpool - Everton have a claim
Not admit Liverpool - Liverpool have no claim as the rules were in place.

Everton wouldn't have a claim either as the FA can chose any 4 sides they want to enter in the competition , unless you mean UEFA remove Evertton which simply isn't going to happen .

TheMonster

RE*AC*TOR wrote:

True but Zaragoza's claim would be with the Spanish FA really - not with UEFA...

Not if UEFA give 5 places to England.

redspider

PHB wrote:

Because the assumption is, and I think its valid, is that a 5th place team can't possibly deserve to be in the Champions League.

Well, not unless they win the CL !! That surely gives a lot of credence for doing well in the CL the following year, if not more so than winning a league, never mind a 4th place team, or indeed a 1st place team from "slobdovina" or indeed Ireland.

Also, what about Villa in the eighties? When they won the top european trophy they ended up 11th or something in the same year, and still qualified?

I am very confident of Liverpool getting into the competition.
Its quite simple, if the winners of the eircom league get in,
and the likes of leagues from Armenia, Azerbijzan, Georgia
and other places, surely the winners of the competition have
every right to be there? All people in the game are in favour
of them getting in, the Beckenbaur's, Eusebio's, Giles, etc
and the likes of Johansson (head of Uefa, etc). Uefa will
make an allowance for them. The only thing which is strange
at the moment is that the Uefa communications guy, who is a
real bureaucrat, keeps saying to the media that they wont be
in it according to the rules. Whilst those are the current rules,
the Uefa executive commitee can start a process of changing
the rules very soon! It is Uefa's competition after all!
Also, Uefa aren't stupid. The competition sponsors (Amstel
et al) will want Liverpool in it for TV viewing, etc. They pay the
bills, so if they want it, it will likely happen. There are very few
stakeholders that dont want to let them in.

As for the argument that the World cup winners dont qualify
anymore, that is completely different circumstances. The
competition is every 4 years, teams play with mainly different
players, and previous winners (such as France and Brazil)
lobbied to NOT qualify as lack of competitive practice
resulted in poor showings for them in follow-on world-cups.
France were woeful in 2002.

I mean there is only so much you can learn from playing Japan,
USA, Australia, China, Hong-Kong, etc in friendlies.

The other key difference is that qualification for a CL the following
year takes place at the same time as the CL itself, so doing well
in one can and does affect doing well in the other. An example is when
Forest won it in 1978, Villa in 1980, even Liverpool have finished 5th
before and won the cup in the same year and qualified. This factor
doesnt happen in a World Cup because it is a tournament run over
4 weeks.

So, I think Uefa will change the rule and will put it the rule in
permanently from now on.

Still savouring the win ..... beats a premiership any day imo.

Redspider

(changed the top paragraph, not a questions but a statement)

TheMonster

But can they change the qualifying rules of a qualifcation that has already taken place?

Dempsey

As someone said earlier "UEFA goes by the assumption that the tournament holders will have the ability to qualify again".

The reference to the world cup is the same. FIFA and UEFA have gone away from the idea that the holders automatically get to defend their title. Now its more if your good enough to win it surely you're good enough to qualify to defend it.

redspider

TheMonster wrote:

But can they change the qualifying rules of a qualifcation that has already taken place?

Yes. They make the rules, its the Uefa CL. They can change them at any time.

There are two other points which I didnt address.

If Uefa grant Liverpool an entry into the competition at some level (the logistics of that will be worked out, teams are queueing up to play them!), will there be a legal case because of the Zaragoza incident? Well, for one thing it was the Spanish FA that gave the place to Real Madrid, and not Uefa, so any gripe or court case will be with the Spanish FA. But it has been mentioned in various places that Zaragoza got the equivalent money from the Spanish FA anyway, more or less "keep shtum" money. I cant see Zaragoza raising it now.

The other point is to forget about FIFA. They are a different organisation. To some extent, FIFA and UEFA compete, even though Uefa is a member organisation of FIFA. FIFA may have an opinion, but thats all. Even though the world cup has gone from a system of winners qualifying, as mentioned, the CL is completely different in nature. The winners are likely to qualify as in many countries its the top 4 that get through. Most years they do, but in the case of Real Madrid/Zaragoza they didnt, and now this year with Liverpool.

I think Uefa will get Liverpool in this year and will make a decision once and for all to make sure the winners automatically qualify, if for some unsual reason (such as losing 11 games in the league or something) that they dont manage to qualify proper.

Its ironic, that if Uefa used their own co-efficient system that Liverpool would be the 1st team out of England to qualify!

Redspider

_blank_

redspider wrote:

Well, not unless they win the CL !! That surely gives a lot of credence for doing well in the CL the following year, if not more so than winning a league, never mind a 4th place team, or indeed a 1st place team from "slobdovina" or indeed Ireland.

Its quite simple, if the winners of the eircom league get in,
and the likes of leagues from Armenia, Azerbijzan, Georgia
and other places, surely the winners of the competition have
every right to be there?

redspider, your posts are normally quite well informed, however I take issue with this point.

Shelbourne have as much right to be in the CL as Chelsea or Barcelona. Under current set up of the competition, Liverpool have no right to be there.

I find your disparaging comments about the champions of "slobdovina" or indeed Ireland patronising, and downright offensive.

Dempsey

redspider wrote:

Its ironic, that if Uefa used their own co-efficient system that Liverpool would be the 1st team out of England to qualify!

The coefficient system is based also on years gone by. I reckon Man Utd are still the highest ranked English Club.

TheMonster

redspider wrote:

Will there be a legal case because of the Zaragoza incident? Well, for one thing it was the Spanish FA that gave the place to Real Madrid, and not Uefa, so any gripe or court case will be with the Spanish FA. But it has been mentioned in various places that Zaragoza got the equivalent money from the Spanish FA anyway, more or less "keep shtum" money. I cant see Zaragoza raising it now.

Do I have to spell it out. :rolleyes: Zaragoza missed out becuase UEFA would not change the rules to accomodate Real Madrid as well as the Spanish FA having no balls. If UEFA had done what is poposed now for Liverpool Zaragoza would have played in it.

RE*AC*TOR

The Spanish FA denied Zaragoza a place - not UEFA. It didn't come to UEFA. Zaragoza could feel hard done by - but I don't think they have any legal grounds.

TheMonster

both did - if Liverpool are allowed be a 5th English team.