And in News just in!

eirebhoy · 01-06-2005 3:29pm

RE*AC*TOR wrote:

The Spanish FA denied Zaragoza a place - not UEFA. It didn't come to UEFA. Zaragoza could feel hard done by - but I don't think they have any legal grounds.

Well the rules were down that Spain get 4 CL places. I'm sure they asked UEFA about it and they told them they would have to choose 4 teams to represent Spain. If they changed the rules back then, Zaragoza would be richer by about 10 million. I don't know whether they would have a legal case but it would be extremely unfair on Spain and Zaragoza if they changed the rules at this stage to accomodate an English team. It was the FA that changed the rules that they had on their website up until recently.

p.pete · 01-06-2005 3:34pm

eirebhoy wrote:

Well the rules were down that Spain get 4 CL places. I'm sure they asked UEFA about it and they told them they would have to choose 4 teams to represent Spain. If they changed the rules back then, Zaragoza would be richer by about 10 million. I don't know whether they would have a legal case but it would be extremely unfair on Spain and Zaragoza if they changed the rules at this stage to accomodate an English team. It was the FA that changed the rules that they had on their website up until recently.

I think it is and was back then, specificaly written into the Spanish league rules that if one the the teams won the comp and did not automatically qualify then they would get the last place.

This isn't specifically in the Premierships rules at the moment so Everton would have excellent grounds to sue if they were denied a place.

RE*AC*TOR · 01-06-2005 3:41pm

This line of arguement is flawed. Without knowing whether or not the Spanish FA tried to get both in - we are all arguing on hypothesis. Nevertheless the facts we know are that the Spanish FA acitvely denied Zaragoza a place in the Champions League. Liverpool play under the English FA - whose criteria for CL qualification appears to be different from Spain's.

In short: Spain have one set of rules, England have another. Uefa have to determine now if they can allow a situation to arise where the CL winners can't defend the title. That question wasn't necessarily raised in the Real Madrid / Zaragoza example.

Cyrus · 01-06-2005 4:02pm

First of all the original post is old news, i think he is the head of the maltese fa who cares, he made those comments months ago

Second no decision will be made for a few weeks yet, my gut is that we will get in

Thirdly the FA can send any 4 teams from the epl, doesnt have to the top 4, thats who they always chosen to send but there is no rule that says it has to be the top 4 clubs

cant understand why everyone is so bitter about this, liverpool deserve there place as champions

TheMonster · 01-06-2005 4:11pm

Because the rules do not allow it EOS

Cyrus · 01-06-2005 4:31pm

the rules do allow it, the rules allow the epl to send feckin charlton if they want

Dempsey · 01-06-2005 4:49pm

UEFA make the provisional access list and can change depending on what each FA enter offically.

http://www.uefa.com/competitions/UCL/news/Kind=1/newsId=268457.html

This shows what UEFA want next season. Interesting thing is that the Title Holder is down for a Group place.....Hmmmm

eirebhoy · 01-06-2005 5:06pm

Dempsey wrote:

UEFA make the provisional access list and can change depending on what each FA enter offically.

http://www.uefa.com/competitions/UCL/news/Kind=1/newsId=268457.html

This shows what UEFA want next season. Interesting thing is that the Title Holder is down for a Group place.....Hmmmm

Read back over the thread.

UEFA make the presumption that if you're good enough to win the CL you are good enough to qualify for the CL through your league system. If you qualified for the 2nd or 3rd round qualifiers you will get a place in the group stages as CL winners. In most cases the winner of the CL qualify for the group stages which means the 10th placed team (in this case Turkey) get automatic entry to the group stages.

Dempsey · 01-06-2005 5:20pm

I have read the thread and im familiar with the qualification system but that access list states that the title holder qualifies which I find surprising

TheMonster · 01-06-2005 5:30pm

It states what would happen if they had qualified.They assume the holders are good enough to qualify.

redspider · 01-06-2005 5:31pm

seansouth wrote:

your posts are normally quite well informed, however I take issue with this point. Shelbourne have as much right to be in the CL as Chelsea or Barcelona. Under current set up of the competition, Liverpool have no right to be there. I find your disparaging comments about the champions of "slobdovina" or indeed Ireland patronising, and downright offensive.

Oh I agree that Shelbourne have as much a right as Barcelona and Chelsea, and arguably more of a right than Arsenal, Real Madrid and other 2nd and lower placed teams. The problem is that people are saying that the winners of the competition aren't good enough (=have no right) to be in the same competition the following year. That does not make any sense at all! Yes, I realise such qualification is not covered by a rule, but at this stage it is an embarassing faux pas for Uefa. They were embarrassed once by Real Madrid and now again by Liverpool. Also think about the intention here. It was not the intention of Uefa to prevent the winners qualify, they took it as a presumption that they would, and a false one at that.

Rules are made to be changed/broken, and in this case, if every top footballer and ex-footballer that is still alive is stating that Liverpool should be catered for, and there are a couple of bureaucrats from Uefa saying the rules wont be changed, then my money is on the footballers. It would be a travesty and a shame on Uefa if they dont let them in somehow.

The Zaragoza case is water under the bridge as they got paid off at the time. If they thought they had a case of unfair treatment, they should have pursued it then.

In terms of the disparaging remarks, it was a light-hearted comment, but any fans of Pyunik, KR, Sheriff, Flora, HB, Kaunas, BATE, Vardar, Grevenmacher , Leotar and other European league champions or the same ilk, please do not take offence as none is intended.

Redspider

eirebhoy · 01-06-2005 6:23pm

Dempsey wrote:

I have read the thread and im familiar with the qualification system but that access list states that the title holder qualifies which I find surprising

This is from the official Champions League regulations:
"If the title-holders take part, they are always the top seed."

I presume that is why they are at the top of that list.

Guy:Incognito · 01-06-2005 6:40pm

Dempsey wrote:

The coefficient system is based also on years gone by. I reckon Man Utd are still the highest ranked English Club.

Well unfortunatley you'd be wrong. Someone posted the list a few days back, Liverpool are a few points clear as Englands top team.

Guy:Incognito · 01-06-2005 6:43pm

TheMonster wrote:

Do I have to spell it out. :rolleyes: Zaragoza missed out becuase UEFA would not change the rules to accomodate Real Madrid as well as the Spanish FA having no balls. If UEFA had done what is poposed now for Liverpool Zaragoza would have played in it.

It never got as far as Uefa, the spanish fa made the decision straight away based on the assumption that Uefa wouldnt give them a 5th place (much like the assumption that the top 4 in the league are guarenteed a place in the cl by some rule, which incidentally (sp?) doesnt exist)

TheMonster · 02-06-2005 8:28am

Yes but they could have intervened as they are being expected by Pool fans to do.

Bottom line is if UEFA change the rules this season in such a way as to prejudice the way Zaragoza were treated they would have a case, regardless of how far it got last time or who made the decision. The rules at the time and now clearly state 4 teams from each country, how the Spanish FA apply them is up to them as is how The FA apply them, what cannot happen is that UEFA change the SAME rules to allow Liverpool in when they didn't change them to allow Madrid in, their rules should be independent of the way countries choose to apply them.

TheMonster · 02-06-2005 9:14am

From the telegraph - Liverpools involvement would lead to loss of revenue for other clubs - more reason to keep them out

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml?view=DETAILS&grid=&xml=/sport/2005/06/02/sfnliv02.xml

Chelsea, Arsenal, Manchester United and Everton, the four English clubs who will definitely take part in next season's Champions League, stand to lose about £20 million between them, £5 million each, should Liverpool be allowed to defend their title and become the fifth Premiership team in the competition.

The financial rewards each club receive from the Champions League comes from two sources. Firstly, there is prize money, depending on how well the club do in the competition.

In addition, every club have a share of what is called the market pool. This is calculated according to the amount of television money the Champions League takes from the country to which the club belong. English television is the most lucrative and this means that English clubs have a bigger market pool than any of the other UEFA countries. Liverpool's entry would mean the English portion of the cake would have to be sliced up five ways instead of four.

To complicate matters, the amount is not distributed equally between the English clubs. The share-out is done according to a complex formula based on each club's performance in their domestic league the previous season and their past record in the Champions League. Liverpool, as winners, will rank higher than clubs like Everton, who have no sort of record in this competition.

Lars-Christer Olsson, chief executive of UEFA, told me: "If Liverpool take part then the income of the other English clubs in the competition will be reduced and the figure will run into millions."

Olsson confirmed that this potential loss of income is one of the factors being considered by a five-man unit working under his leadership to examine if and how Liverpool may be allowed to defend their title.

UEFA might decide that Liverpool will take part but will not be allowed to share in the market pool income. Or, that all clubs in next season's competition will sacrifice some of their income to allow Liverpool to get a share.

"It is a very complicated situation," Olsson said. "We have to examine all the factors. We cannot take any decision which will adversely affect any other club already in the competition."

For instance, if Liverpool were allowed in at the group stage without having to qualify that would mean Fenerbache, the Turkish champions who are in the group stage, would have to drop back into the qualifying competition. This is unlikely to appeal to Senes Erzik, the senior vice-president from Turkey, an influential UEFA executive member.

However, before such factors are worked out UEFA have to decide whether they want Liverpool to defend their title.

"We must first find out whether there is a majority in the executive for a change of the regulations," Olsson said. "And in arriving at this decision, it must be taken, not on the basis that it is Liverpool, but on the general principle that we want the champions to defend their title under all circumstances."

He would not speculate on how the executive feel but soundings I have taken suggest that a majority are against changing the rules.

As one executive member told me: "We decided on these regulations last month in Tallinn when we knew Liverpool were in the semi-final and could win the competition. However, at the meeting nobody raised any questions. The regulations were agreed without any discussions."

Geoff Thompson, chairman of the Football Association, who as a member of the UEFA executive was at the Tallinn meeting, said: "We knew there was a potential issue with Liverpool and while we raised it informally we didn't raise it at the meeting.

"But our case is that this is now a question of fair play and we are winning some sympathy, but it's impossible to call and the situation changes every day."

Olsson is hoping to complete his investigation by next week. Thompson, however, feels no decision will be taken until UEFA's executive meet in Manchester on June 17. UEFA insiders say that much will depend on Lennart Johansson, the UEFA president who has made noises suggesting that he wants some way to be found for Liverpool to take part.

Jivin Turkey · 02-06-2005 1:59pm

TheMonster wrote:

Yes but they could have intervened as they are being expected by Pool fans to do.

There was no need as Zaragoza took the money. There was no pressure for them to be included. Why would they intervene when they weren't asked?

TheMonster wrote:

Bottom line is if UEFA change the rules this season in such a way as to prejudice the way Zaragoza were treated they would have a case, regardless of how far it got last time or who made the decision. The rules at the time and now clearly state 4 teams from each country, how the Spanish FA apply them is up to them as is how The FA apply them, what cannot happen is that UEFA change the SAME rules to allow Liverpool in when they didn't change them to allow Madrid in, their rules should be independent of the way countries choose to apply them.

Zaragoza would not have a case as they took the offer that was put to them. They accepted what was happening and took the money as consideration. In legal terms Id be very certain that because they took compensation then, they could not dig up any old claim now.

And UEFA can change the rules as they see fit, they are the governing body after all. And the Madrid/Zaragoza case is not the only time this has happened. In the 96/97 season when only one entrant from each league was allowed in, Juve won the CL but finished outside the CL qualifying places, yet they were allowed in. What has changed since then? In sure you were as vocal about the decision back then :rolleyes:

When it comes down to it Liverpool can easily be accomodated in the CL draw, without any team not being able to compete.

The loss of revenue to other clubs would also apply if say Germany increased their coefficient to allow 4 entrants, should that be outlawed as well?

You in particular seem to have a problem with Liverpool entering the competition, and to be honest from reading your posts Id say its just down to bitterness. You have put many reasons for their exclusion across in this thread only for them to be rebutted, on which you disappear for a day or two and join in thinking no one would notice.

Can I put to you one more question? In future years do you think that any team that doesnt win their league, should be included in the CL ahead of the holders of the competition? Its a simple yes or no answer.

SteM · 02-06-2005 2:14pm

Jivin Turkey wrote:

When it comes down to it Liverpool can easily be accomodated in the CL draw, without any team not being able to compete.

I haven't read this whole thread but I was under the impression that it would be difficult to include Liverpool without leaving out a team such as Everton.? Especially if Liverpool are given top seeding as winners the previous year.

What have I missed?

Kingp35 · 02-06-2005 2:34pm

Jivin Turkey wrote:

And UEFA can change the rules as they see fit, they are the governing body after all. And the Madrid/Zaragoza case is not the only time this has happened. In the 96/97 season when only one entrant from each league was allowed in, Juve won the CL but finished outside the CL qualifying places, yet they were allowed in. What has changed since then? In sure you were as vocal about the decision back then :rolleyes:

Sorry your wrong here, the rules have changed since then. At that stage the rules stated that the winners of the champions league did qualify automatically for the competition. Obviously this was because with only league winners qualifying it was a lot less likely that the winners would qualify by right again. The rules have changed since then with more teams being aloud in. In my opinion UEFA are justified to assume that the winners of the champions league should have the ability to finish in the qualifying positions in their league now that more teams qualify. This is where liverpool are in trouble because they didnt have the ability to do this. Your also forgetting the fact that the rules for the World Cup have also changed since then now that the winners of that competition also have to qualify. For example if Brazil failed to Qualify for this World cup would you want the rules to be changed to allow them in and another team who rightly qulaified to lose out? No because thats not fair and rules are rules. If you like the Premiership can be taken as a champions league qualifying group with the top 4 qulaifying. Liverpool didnt make it.

Jivin Turkey wrote:

When it comes down to it Liverpool can easily be accomodated in the CL draw, without any team not being able to compete.

Again your wrong here. To accomodate Liverpool another team has to lose out. The competition is already structured in such a way that a certain number of qualifiers from certain countries enter at a particular stage of the competition. One of these teams would have to lose out because Liverpool would be a fifth english team thus throwing the structure into disarray. If they could easily accomodate them they would and this argument wouldnt be happening. There is no place held in the structure for the winners as the rules state that the winners do not automatically qualify.

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Can I put to you one more question? In future years do you think that any team that doesnt win their league, should be included in the CL ahead of the holders of the competition? Its a simple yes or no answer.

People may not agree with this rule especially not Liverpool fans but I doubt liverpool fans would be arguing this case so strongly if it wasnt them that were missing out. I think the rules should be followed the way they are laid out now. So to answer your question Yes I do think a team that rightly qualifies from their league should be put in ahead of a team that doesnt qualify. As I say if Brazil fail to qualify they will not be put in as there is no room in the competition for them just like there is no room for Liverpool in the champions League. You need to think about the points your making because none of them are valid. The rules are clearly set out and should be followed otherwise UEFA just become a laughing stock. Congratulations to Liverpool for winning but they didnt qualify for next season.

I also want to point out that many people seem to blaming other people, who are only stating the rules of the competition, for being bitter that Liverpool won the Champions League. I think it is completely the opposite. I think Liverpool fans are the bitter ones because their team hasnt qualified despite being champions. It is Liverpool fans who are screaming out that an injustice has been done against them when it hasnt. The rules are simply being witheld. Liverpool fans are trying to think of all these reasons etc. of why they should be in despite not qualifying. I believe they are the bitter people that they didnt qualify not the people upholding the rules.

P.

TheMonster · 02-06-2005 2:38pm

Jivin Turkey wrote:

There was no need as Zaragoza took the money. There was no pressure for them to be included. Why would they intervene when they weren't asked?

Zaragoza would not have a case as they took the offer that was put to them. They accepted what was happening and took the money as consideration. In legal terms Id be very certain that because they took compensation then, they could not dig up any old claim now.

They took money from the Spanish FA not from UEFA - there beef if Liverpool were allowed in would be with UEFA. The Spanish FA made their decision becuase of the UEFA rules(4 clubs per country) - the fact that they may not ask UEFA to do so is irrelevant (don't know whther it was discussed now)
Can you not open your eyes to their being 2 seperate decisions 1 by Local FA and 1 by UEFA.

Can I put to you one more question? In future years do you think that any team that doesnt win their league, should be included in the CL ahead of the holders of the competition? Its a simple yes or no answer.

Yes(under the current rules)

And yes I do have a problem with Liverpool fans assuming they have a god given right to change the rules so that it suits them.(The rules were known at the start of the season.) Could you imagine the furore if it was United asking the same thing?

I think it is wrong that the champions can't defend it but also think it unfair to change the rules to cater for the situation that has arisen. The rules shoudl be changed the ensure it doesn't happen again.

~Rebel~ · 02-06-2005 3:02pm

Just quoting myself cause tired of sayin same things. Its not hard for a new team to be added. If its perfectly fine for a german team to be added, then its obviously logistically possible for another english team to be added. An extra teams an extra team, just 1 more number.

~Rebel~ wrote:

Whats the difference between an extra place (5th) for england being added (currently not allowed) and an extra place (4th) for Germany being added (allowed)? Surely the only problem is that they dont want a 5th english team and thats it.
If an extra team can be added if the winner comes from germany (or any other country with less then 4 spots) and finishes outside the top 3 domestically then why (logistically) cant a team from a country with 4 spots not be added in exactly the same way, its still just an extra team..

Also in terms of Liverpool being granted entry, obviously its a matter of opinion. THERE IS NO RIGHT ANSWER! its the rules currently in place VS common Sense. Obviously its NOT reasonable for Uefa to assume a team capable of winning it should always be capable of qualifying in league because this hasn't happened twice in 8 years. Thats a quarter of the time since Juventus got in and the rules changed!! Theres a reason every major person in the sport is saying "of course liverpool The Champions Of Europe should defend the title" - ITS THE CHAMPIONS LEAGUE! Its just common sense. Now on the other side, we have the argument saying they didn't technically gain entry for next year to defend the title (even though the title has always ALWAYS been defended). There is No More that can be said about it here with the 2 sides just keeping their points and repeating over and over, it seems noone is willing to change so its clear its just down to uefa to settle it. In my opinion they should be added, but i accept there is an argument against this so if they dont get it i think it'll be harsh but acceptable.

Kingp35 · 02-06-2005 3:10pm

~Rebel~ wrote:

Also in terms of Liverpool being granted entry, obviously its a matter of opinion. THERE IS NO RIGHT ANSWER! its the rules currently in place VS common Sense. Obviously its NOT reasonable for Uefa to assume a team capable of winning it should always be capable of qualifying in league because this hasn't happened twice in 8 years. Thats a quarter of the time since Juventus got in and the rules changed!! Theres a reason every major person in the sport is saying "of course liverpool The Champions Of Europe should defend the title" - ITS THE CHAMPIONS LEAGUE! Its just common sense. Now on the other side, we have the argument saying they didn't technically gain entry for next year to defend the title (even though the title has always ALWAYS been defended). There is No More that can be said about it here with the 2 sides just keeping their points and repeating over and over, it seems noone is willing to change so its clear its just down to uefa to settle it. In my opinion they should be added, but i accept there is an argument against this so if they dont get it i think it'll be harsh but acceptable.

obviously you are going to say this because you are a liverpool fan. Your opinion is a biased one whereas my opinion is a nuetral one. I think its ridiculous that this situation has arisen. The rule stated the winners automatically qualify should never have been changed but is has.

The rule should be changed but I do not think it should come into affect this year it is too far gone into the season. i think it should be introduced for the following season. However saying this i guarantee you liverpool fans wont accept this because they are not srguing for the good of football they are arguing for the good of their team. As I said your opinions are biased and therefore unable to give a clear and proper view on the situation

TheMonster · 02-06-2005 3:14pm

~Rebel~ wrote:

(even though the title has always ALWAYS been defended).

This is due to the Spanish FA having no balls rather than UEFA rules.

Mitch Connor · 02-06-2005 3:16pm

i think it would be a shame if liverpool were not granted entry - but i think it would be the right call. the rules were in place at the start of the year. every team knew they would have to qualify via a league place to be in the champions league, they ALL knew winning the trophy would not be enough. I can not see why the rules should be changed because they are inconvienient.

as i say, it would be a shame for liverpool to not defend their title, but they have NO right to defend it in the first place.

Mitch Connor · 02-06-2005 3:18pm

more specifically it was because it was Real as the team in need of help - god forbid Real not being in the champions league, i feel quite confident in saying had it been the other way round (real in 4th, Zaragoza winning the CL) the spanish FA would have been quite happy to leave things as they were.

~Rebel~ · 02-06-2005 3:18pm

Kingp35 wrote:

obviously you are going to say this because you are a liverpool fan. Your opinion is a biased one whereas my opinion is a nuetral one. I think its ridiculous that this situation has arisen. The rule stated the winners automatically qualify should never have been changed but is has.

The rule should be changed but I do not think it should come into affect this year it is too far gone into the season. i think it should be introduced for the following season. However saying this i guarantee you liverpool fans wont accept this because they are not srguing for the good of football they are arguing for the good of their team. As I said your opinions are biased and therefore unable to give a clear and proper view on the situation

I agree that there's definately a major argument for them not to be in (as i said) as the rules state they shouldn't be.
I also said this blatantly goes against common sense (as you agreed) and will almost certainly be changed from the following season. What could well get liverpool in this year is that they're supported by pretty much everyone in their side of things, that it would be kinda wrong for holders to not defend. Yes Im biased but i awknowledged both sides arguments and admitted i have no real complaints if they dont get in as both sides have very valid points. what more do you want?

TheMonster · 02-06-2005 3:31pm

Fair play rebel at least you can see both sides.

I don't think anyone is arguing that it is worng for the holders not to qualify.

Kingp35 · 02-06-2005 3:39pm

~Rebel~ wrote:

I agree that there's definately a major argument for them not to be in (as i said) as the rules state they shouldn't be.
I also said this blatantly goes against common sense (as you agreed) and will almost certainly be changed from the following season. What could well get liverpool in this year is that they're supported by pretty much everyone in their side of things, that it would be kinda wrong for holders to not defend. Yes Im biased but i awknowledged both sides arguments and admitted i have no real complaints if they dont get in as both sides have very valid points. what more do you want?

I dont think there are many people here that dont agree that it is a bad rule and it should be changed. Im just a firm believer that if the rules exist at the start of a season they should be witheld for the whole season. For example there have been quite a few rule changes throughout football in the last few years but none of these changes have happened during a season. I feel for liverpool fans and the rule should be changed but I dont think now is the right time. UEFA should acknowledge that its a bad rule and change it for next season. Unfortunately i just dont think its fair to change the rule now. It is ridiculous that a team cant defend their title and it is common sense to let them but its obvious UEFA dont have any hence their rules.

If liverpool do get in i will be disappointed with the way UEFA has acted but yeah I would understand why because they will be under tremendous pressure. But I think liverpool should be made an example of and the rule changed so it doesnt happen again however in the interests of other teams they shouldnt be allowed in this season its too late and it would cause too much unrest for other clubs. However whatever decision UEFA make would be understandable. Both opinions are valid in their own way but I think the opinion of not letting them in has more reason behind it than the one to let them in

P.

~Rebel~ · 02-06-2005 4:23pm

My God we all seem to have general agreement (as much as is possible in this case) with each side still sticking to their own opinions but accepting the oppositions. Not sure i've seen this on a soccer forum before..

redspider · 02-06-2005 5:23pm

~Rebel~ wrote:

Also in terms of Liverpool being granted entry, obviously its a matter of opinion. THERE IS NO RIGHT ANSWER! its the rules currently in place VS common Sense. Obviously its NOT reasonable for Uefa to assume a team capable of winning it should always be capable of qualifying in league because this hasn't happened twice in 8 years. Thats a quarter of the time since Juventus got in and the rules changed!! Theres a reason every major person in the sport is saying "of course liverpool The Champions Of Europe should defend the title" - ITS THE CHAMPIONS LEAGUE! Its just common sense. Now on the other side, we have the argument saying they didn't technically gain entry for next year to defend the title (even though the title has always ALWAYS been defended). There is No More that can be said about it here with the 2 sides just keeping their points and repeating over and over ... so its clear its just down to uefa to settle it.

Agreed. Only UEFA will decide this, not us on boards.ie.

Btw, the Uefa guy that said this:
"We decided on these regulations last month in Tallinn when we knew Liverpool were in the semi-final and could win the competition. However, at the meeting nobody raised any questions. The regulations were agreed without any discussions."

That is only a half-truth. The stance taken by Uefa and stated clearly to the media, is that they will plan as normal wthout the Liverpool "situation" taken into account. If Liverpool should win the CL, then and onlt then, they will re-consider on June 17th. So, the plans that this executive agreed to are not cast in stone as Liverpool won the CL. Everything is up for review.

I think that Uefa will get them in, and I wouldnt be surprised if there is internal political fall-out of some sort in Uefa. Johansson has some common sense.

Redspider

Jivin Turkey · 03-06-2005 1:03am

Kingp35 wrote:

Sorry your wrong here, the rules have changed since then. At that stage the rules stated that the winners of the champions league did qualify automatically for the competition. Obviously this was because with only league winners qualifying it was a lot less likely that the winners would qualify by right again. The rules have changed since then with more teams being aloud in. In my opinion UEFA are justified to assume that the winners of the champions league should have the ability to finish in the qualifying positions in their league now that more teams qualify. This is where liverpool are in trouble because they didnt have the ability to do this.

The difference is though (and has been pointed out previously in the thread) that if England only had three places in the competition and the same scenario arose that Liverpool would be granted a place. So obviously the problem doesnt lie with the holders not being readmitted, just England having five teams in the competition.

And why was the page taken down from the FA site, clearly stating that the CL holders would be put in ahead of a fourth place team last year? I dont recall the FA changing their policy on this, so why is it different this year?

I have also failed to see the rule that says "the title holders will not be readmitted", Im just taking a load of heresay. The title holders have always been readmitted, and to be honest I never heard of that changing.

Kingp35 wrote:

Your also forgetting the fact that the rules for the World Cup have also changed since then now that the winners of that competition also have to qualify. For example if Brazil failed to Qualify for this World cup would you want the rules to be changed to allow them in and another team who rightly qulaified to lose out? No because thats not fair and rules are rules. If you like the Premiership can be taken as a champions league qualifying group with the top 4 qulaifying. Liverpool didnt make it.

You are also forgetting the fact that this point has been addressed ad nauseum in the thread.

International football is different, the rule to not allow the holders automatically into the competition as it was lobbied for by the holders as they were disadvantaged as a result of lack of competitive matches.

Kingp35 wrote:

Again your wrong here. To accomodate Liverpool another team has to lose out. The competition is already structured in such a way that a certain number of qualifiers from certain countries enter at a particular stage of the competition. One of these teams would have to lose out because Liverpool would be a fifth english team thus throwing the structure into disarray. If they could easily accomodate them they would and this argument wouldnt be happening. There is no place held in the structure for the winners as the rules state that the winners do not automatically qualify.

Again Im wrong? I didnt realise I was wrong in the first place. But to address this, if you look at the qualification matrix with I will link again here, a simple maths calculation will show you that there is a need for another team:

As it stands

- 24 teams start in QR1. 12 go through.
- 16 teams start in QR2, plus the 12 from QR1, 28 in QR2, 14 to go through.
- 18 teams start in QR3, plus the 14 from QR2, 32 in QR3, 16 to go through.
- 15 teams automatically in the groups, plus the 16 from QR3, 31 in the groups, now let me think where the extra team is supposed to come from???

So please point out where the "issue" is with accomodating them. Ive discussed this with a few in this thread and fail to see the problem.

Kingp35 wrote:

People may not agree with this rule especially not Liverpool fans but I doubt liverpool fans would be arguing this case so strongly if it wasnt them that were missing out.

Im sure I wouldnt as it wouldnt bother me so much, but at the same time I wouldnt delude myself enough to say that the other team doesnt deserve or shouldnt be there. The European Cup has always been defended, I dont see what has changed.

Kingp35 wrote:

I think the rules should be followed the way they are laid out now.

And thats where many of the problems with football stem. Too many bureaucrats. Common sense should overrule any law, as is the case in every game when it comes to many of referees decisions.

Kingp35 wrote:

So to answer your question Yes I do think a team that rightly qualifies from their league should be put in ahead of a team that doesnt qualify. As I say if Brazil fail to qualify they will not be put in as there is no room in the competition for them just like there is no room for Liverpool in the champions League. You need to think about the points your making because none of them are valid. The rules are clearly set out and should be followed otherwise UEFA just become a laughing stock. Congratulations to Liverpool for winning but they didnt qualify for next season.

My question was "In future years do you think that any team that doesnt win their league, should be included in the CL ahead of the holders of the competition?"

Kingp35 wrote:

I also want to point out that many people seem to blaming other people, who are only stating the rules of the competition, for being bitter that Liverpool won the Champions League. I think it is completely the opposite. I think Liverpool fans are the bitter ones because their team hasnt qualified despite being champions. It is Liverpool fans who are screaming out that an injustice has been done against them when it hasnt. The rules are simply being witheld. Liverpool fans are trying to think of all these reasons etc. of why they should be in despite not qualifying. I believe they are the bitter people that they didnt qualify not the people upholding the rules.

Im not bitter, and if LFC dont get to defend their trophy next year Ill be a bit disappointed but I wont be bitter.

I assume that most fans are like me and would rather see them have a proper go at the league than a great CL run.

TheMonster · 03-06-2005 8:27am

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Common sense should overrule any law

This must be the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard - why bother having rules at all? :rolleyes:

Jivin Turkey · 03-06-2005 9:30am

TheMonster wrote:

This must be the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard - why bother having rules at all? :rolleyes:

Well then you should get out and live in the real world more often.

Do never think that in many instances in football (not to mention life in general) that people who enforce rules/laws use their judgement and common sense over what piece of paper says?

spockety · 03-06-2005 2:35pm

eirebhoy wrote:

Read back over the thread.

UEFA make the presumption that if you're good enough to win the CL you are good enough to qualify for the CL through your league system.

No they don't.

If Germany, for example, won the CL, they would be given an extra place.

The ONLY issue here is the rule stating that no more than 4 teams from any one country can be entered.

eirebhoy · 03-06-2005 2:49pm

spockety wrote:

No they don't.

If Germany, for example, won the CL, they would be given an extra place.

I didn't know that. Any links?

Kingp35 · 03-06-2005 2:56pm

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Well then you should get out and live in the real world more often.

Do never think that in many instances in football (not to mention life in general) that people who enforce rules/laws use their judgement and common sense over what piece of paper says?

For starters this is a football matter not "life in general". This is not some silly on-field incident where common sense should prevail over a minor rule this is a major rule which will affect alot of teams so I have to agree your comment here is pretty damn stupid.

Jivin Turkey · 03-06-2005 3:34pm

Kingp35 wrote:

For starters this is a football matter not "life in general".

Thats why I said it was a football matter.

Kingp35 wrote:

This is not some silly on-field incident where common sense should prevail over a minor rule this is a major rule which will affect alot of teams so I have to agree your comment here is pretty damn stupid.

Ive already demonstrated that Liverpool can be put into the competition without affecting the draw for any other team, so how will it "affect alot of teams"? Or are you just ignoring this again?

PHB · 03-06-2005 3:53pm

It will affect other teams because Liverpool will be playing matches, just that simple

Kingp35 · 03-06-2005 4:02pm

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Ive already demonstrated that Liverpool can be put into the competition without affecting the draw for any other team, so how will it "affect alot of teams"? Or are you just ignoring this again?

No I am not ignoring this its not only a matter of slotting them in but since im talking about it if you have read any of the newspaper reports articles about this etc. you will know that a turkish side will have to drop out of the group stages into the qualifying rounds to let liverpool in. You can put up as many links to structures etc. as you want but this is common knowledge at this stage. What happens if that team doesnt win its qualifying round? they lose £20m thats what happens.

Also with there being 5 english teams in the competition, as was posted earlier in this thread, certain revenue that is gained through tv will have to be split 5 ways between the english clubs and not equally either. Its worked out through a complicated formula depending on how well your team has performed in the competiton before and since Everton have never been in it they stand to lose at least £5m which is alot of money to them. Also Arsenal, Man U and Chelsea stand to lose money too but obviously it doesnt affect them as much. So there are 5 teams that will be directly affected by liverpools entry to the competition.

Would you do me a favour and wake the hell up and realise if UEFA could just slot liverpool in they would. Fact is they cant do it without affecting these teams and that is the whole problem. So stop talking rubbish about it being easy to slot them in because it is far from it. Look at the big picture and see who will be affected by this and how. Then you will see what my problem is.

spockety · 03-06-2005 4:30pm

You are all conveniently choosing to ignore the fact that the ONLY problem is England having 5 teams in. There is NO problem with "figuring out where to slot them in". they go in to the "TH" (Title Holders) slot that is allocated by UEFA already.

Some Turkish team lose 20 million if they don't get through the qualifier? 20m?? HAHAHAHA, are you having a laugh or what?

BTW, your arguments are all redundant anyway, Liverpool will be in the Champions League next season, and if they're not, I'll eat my hat!

Kingp35 · 03-06-2005 4:33pm

spockety wrote:

You are all conveniently choosing to ignore the fact that the ONLY problem is England having 5 teams in. There is NO problem with "figuring out where to slot them in". they go in to the "TH" (Title Holders) slot that is allocated by UEFA already.

Some Turkish team lose 20 million if they don't get through the qualifier? 20m?? HAHAHAHA, are you having a laugh or what?
!

Thats it im a stand up comedian. You go and read about it and you will know what im talking about and yes you earn approx £20m playing in the group stages so they would lose this

spockety · 03-06-2005 4:37pm

Can you please point me to something that shows that a TURKISH outfit could earn TWENTY million from playing in the group stages?

p.pete · 03-06-2005 4:42pm

spockety wrote:

BTW, your arguments are all redundant anyway, Liverpool will be in the Champions League next season, and if they're not, I'll eat my hat!

What flavour is it?

Keano_sli · 03-06-2005 4:54pm

spockety wrote:

Can you please point me to something that shows that a TURKISH outfit could earn TWENTY million from playing in the group stages?

[HTML]http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/news/000925b.html[/HTML]

These are UEFA Figures from 2000 so the figures are sure to be higher now. The figure for the winner is 32.5 million CHF whcih is about €21.5 million so thats bound to be more now, includes match bonuses and share of Market pool, does not seemt o include TV money or gate receipts so we can assume that will push up the final figure.
So Technically a Turkish team could stand to earn over €20 million if they won the CL and before you even try to rubbish the prospect who would have thought Liverpool or Porto were contenders at the start of the last 2 campaigns.

Now quit talking through your rear end please!

eirebhoy · 03-06-2005 5:18pm

The Turkish team would not have a case. They knew at the start of the season that the winner of the CL would enter into the 3rd round qualifier. If the winner of the CL has already qualified for the group stages (which has been the case most years) than the Turkish team would get automatic entry. There was nothing at the start of the season saying the Turkish winner are guaranteed entry into the group stages though.

Shred · 03-06-2005 6:04pm

FOOTBALL FANS UNITE TO BACK REDS EURO BID

From LFC.TV

Football supporters across the world are uniting to back Liverpool's bid to defend the Champions League trophy they won so gloriously in Istanbul last week.

A special website - www.fairplaytoliverpool.co.uk - has been set up and fans of all clubs have been registering their support for the Reds by adding their name to a rapidly growing petition.

The mission statement of the website reads as follows:

'CALLING all fans of football and fair play.

Welcome to the campaign for Liverpool FC to defend the Champions League Trophy, won in such dramatic fashion this week.

The whole of football, barring UEFA's big wigs, seem to agree that it is only "Right and Fair" that Liverpool F C should be allowed to defend their title.

Football is nothing without its fans, who provide the spirit, the atmosphere, the revenues and the passion of the beautiful game.

UEFA should therefore bow to what the fans want, and that is for them to do what is right, and make an exception to the rules. Please take the time to fill in our petition which will be presented to the UEFA delegation at the meeting in Manchester in June.'

Already over 4,000 (this has risen to over 16,000 since) fans have backed the campaign and spokesman Tom Smith, a Manchester City supporter, says: "No matter what club you support, you can't fail to have been captivated by the final in Istanbul.

"Liverpool are the rightful 'Champions League champions' and it will be a nonsense if they are not allowed to defend their title.

"It will make a mockery of next season's competition, damage football and show UEFA to be as horribly out of touch with the grassroots fans as they are appearing to be now unless someone in Switzerland sees sense."

Les Lawson, Secretary of the Merseyside Branch Of The Official Liverpool Supporters Club (AIB), is fully endorsing the campaign and adds: " We need to make as many people as we can, aware of this petition and get them to add their names to the petition which will ultimately be sent to UEFA."

Jivin Turkey · 03-06-2005 7:47pm

eirebhoy wrote:

The Turkish team would not have a case. They knew at the start of the season that the winner of the CL would enter into the 3rd round qualifier. If the winner of the CL has already qualified for the group stages (which has been the case most years) than the Turkish team would get automatic entry. There was nothing at the start of the season saying the Turkish winner are guaranteed entry into the group stages though.

Thank you.

No back to the papers for me, because apparently they are the gospel on these matters.

TheMonster · 03-06-2005 8:02pm

eirebhoy wrote:

The Turkish team would not have a case. They knew at the start of the season that the winner of the CL would enter into the 3rd round qualifier. If the winner of the CL has already qualified for the group stages (which has been the case most years) than the Turkish team would get automatic entry. There was nothing at the start of the season saying the Turkish winner are guaranteed entry into the group stages though.

I beg to differ as under the rules as they are they will qualify directly to the group stages.

Guy:Incognito · 03-06-2005 8:15pm

Look, tbh your all missing the point. No-one cares because we are European champions, you can all go ahead and have the competition without us next year. I'm very confident, and I'd be willing to put money on it, that Chelsea are the only English team who have a chance next year, with or without Liverpool.

I also reckon that theres a very good chance that Liverpool and Everton will meet in the UEFA cup next season, assuming Everton get far enough to be able to play Liverpool. So, as far as I'm concerned I'm happy with Liverpool playing in the UEFA cup for a season because they can't do betternext season than they did this so they can concentrate on winning a different competition (hopefully the league, but I'm not over-confident). Here's hoping Rafa can win his 2nd UEFA cup in 3 years.

eirebhoy · 03-06-2005 8:16pm

TheMonster wrote:

I beg to differ as under the rules as they are they will qualify directly to the group stages.

My head was messed trying to figure out if a team would lose there place if Liverpool qualified but I am 110% sure that the 10th place country in the rankings (in this case Turkey) get a place in the 3rd qualifying round. Last season it was Celtic and because Porto had already qualified for the group stages Celtic were promoted into the group stages to fill the extra place. Almost every year the 10th place team gets automatic entry into the group stages but that is only because almost every year the winners of the CL qualify for the group stages from their domestic league.

From http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/qual2005.html:

The Champions League cup-holder spot will not be used because Liverpool did not qualify for the Champions League based on league position. The English FA said it will enter the top four teams of the Premiership, and UEFA said it will not allow five English teams in 2005/2006. This implies that the champion of the 10th country on the ranking list (Turkey) will gain direct access to the 1st round...

If Liverpool were to get a place in the group stages Fenerbahce would just have to do with a place in QR3 as that is all they are guaranteed. If Porto came 2nd in the Portuguese league last year Celtic would have had to do with a place in QR3 aswell but they wont their league which meant Celtic were promoted.

And in News just in!

Comments