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Jivin Turkey

TheMonster wrote:

I beg to differ as under the rules as they are they will qualify directly to the group stages.

Beg all you want, and perhaps read the links and posts that have been put up.

TheMonster

FFS - Take your head out of the sand - Under the current UEFA rules because the FA said top4 qaulify Liverpool do not qualify EOS. If they change the rules of course they can . Did you read what my post replied to? :rolleyes:

Jivin Turkey

TheMonster wrote:

FFS - Take your head out of the sand - Under the current UEFA rules because the FA said top4 qaulify Liverpool do not qualify EOS. If they change the rules of course they can . Did you read what my post replied to? :rolleyes:

Your post replied to the idea that the Turkish team have automatic qualification to the group stages, which is completely wrong. So dont roll your eyes at me. Did you read the link that has been posted up about five time detailing the qualification set up? Because it appears that you havnt.

But Ill spell it out again for you, the Turkish team have generally automatically qualified for the groups as the team that wins the CL has generally qualified for the groups, thus leaving a free spot in the auto entry for the TH. However, the Turkish teams coefficient does not warrant a automatic place, it is just the way luck has fallen for them that they generally have got it.

Turkey do not lose anything they had a right to, they just dont get the promotion they are not entitled to. If you are so concerned about not changing the rules why should UEFA change their rules and put Turkey in the groups? Seeing as they said at the start of the season that they would play in QR3? But Im sure you wont apply the same logic you have to Liverpool because you dont have a chip on your shoulder against Turkey.

And as regards "the FA said top four qualify", last year they categorically said that should an English team win the CL and not finish top four, that they would be entered into the CL at the expense of the fourth placed team. Again going back to your bureaucratic ideas that you cant change the rules. I dont remember them changing the rules this year, so again why shouldnt Liverpool be put in at the expense of Everton (which I wouldnt actually like to see)?

Jivin Turkey

Kingp35 wrote:

No I am not ignoring this its not only a matter of slotting them in but since im talking about it if you have read any of the newspaper reports articles about this etc. you will know that a turkish side will have to drop out of the group stages into the qualifying rounds to let liverpool in. You can put up as many links to structures etc. as you want but this is common knowledge at this stage. What happens if that team doesnt win its qualifying round? they lose £20m thats what happens.

Turkey are not entitled to automatic entry to the groups, so if they lose in QR3 tough, thats where UEFA said they should start at the beginning of the season, why should it be changed?

Kingp35 wrote:

Also with there being 5 english teams in the competition, as was posted earlier in this thread, certain revenue that is gained through tv will have to be split 5 ways between the english clubs and not equally either. Its worked out through a complicated formula depending on how well your team has performed in the competiton before and since Everton have never been in it they stand to lose at least £5m which is alot of money to them. Also Arsenal, Man U and Chelsea stand to lose money too but obviously it doesnt affect them as much. So there are 5 teams that will be directly affected by liverpools entry to the competition.

But if a German team qualified they get put in as a fourth German team and hence diluting the German share, so why should England be treated differently?

Kingp35 wrote:

Would you do me a favour and wake the hell up and realise if UEFA could just slot liverpool in they would. Fact is they cant do it without affecting these teams and that is the whole problem. So stop talking rubbish about it being easy to slot them in because it is far from it. Look at the big picture and see who will be affected by this and how. Then you will see what my problem is.

Im wide awake.

So far you have indicate that

(1) A Turkish team is affected. They arent, they just dont get a place that they were not entitled to.

(2) The other English teams get affected. Yes Ill hold my hands up and agree, but why should German teams suffer from a German team winning the CL and English teams not?

(3) Some smaller team will be affected. No they wont.

So Im afraid I dont see why you have such a problem.

Emmo

his problem is Liverpool winning the Champions League and keeping it.

Emmo

PHB

My problem is that I don't think they deserve to be in it next year.
I don't think previous winners should automatically qualify for anything

Jivin Turkey

PHB wrote:

My problem is that I don't think they deserve to be in it next year.
I don't think previous winners should automatically qualify for anything

But then the holders of the competition could not defend their title, and ultimately lose it to someone else. And this is why the holders have always qualified for the competition, regardless of where they finished in the league.

Say if United won it next year Im sure you would rather Liverpool played in it, as then you would have won it off them. Im sure it would get under your skin when Liverpool fans claimed that you arent the real champions because you couldnt win the competition with the defending champions in it.

LFCFan

PHB wrote:

My problem is that I don't think they deserve to be in it next year.

This is the most rediculous statement ever. How can you say they don't deserve to be in it when they have just won the damn thing. We wouldn't even be having this debate if it was PSV or some non english team who was in this predicament and it would be their rival fans saying they shouldn't be in it. Remove bias from the argument and there's no way anyone could say Liverpool don't deserve to be in it.

Emmo

They deserve to be in it.

They beat some great teams on the way to winning it, culminating in the best final ever seen. Watched by 1.5 Billion people it was a great advertisement for the sport.

By virtue of the fact that they beat every team who played them and won the competition earning the right to call them selves champions who as part of that title have a spot reserved for them in next years competition.

They where the rules set out before the competition started, never mind people saying that Liverpool knew they where not in it.

Liverpool knew that as holders they have a spot reserved for them.

They will defend their title.

Emmo

PHB

Just because you assume I'm biased doesn't make in anyway my arguement invalid.

Also saying that they will etc, won't make it happen Infact little will make it happen, cause its a legal landmine for UEFA.

p.s. If this had happened to United, i'd be so ****ing annoyed that we came 5th I wouldn't want us to be in the CL again.

Liverpool never beat Porto Jivin, does that mean they never actually beat the champions, and inturn never won the league? No because another team beat Porto and knocked them out, then someone beat them, eventually Liverpool beat Porto in the CL. Which I understand. In a sense Liverpool beat Porto to take the crown off them.

The problem however is that you see the Champions league and the Premiership as a seperate compo.

In one sense, ignoring Europe totally, it is a seperate compo. There is seperate prize money etc.

But at the same time, it is a CL qualifier round, it is part of the CL qualifying system, just like the other qualifiers when the Eircom league champs are playing.
It goes,
National League
Pre-Qualifying Round 1
Pre-Qualifying Round 2
Pre-Qualifying Round 2
Group Stages
They had already lost their right to defend it in the first qualifying round of the CL, that being the premiership/serie A/la liga/etc
Just cause they lost in the inital qualifier doesn't mean they should get a bye cause they won.

Thus when say Man Utd win the CL next year, , they will have beaten Liverpool, cause Liverpool will have been knocked out in the round before the pre-qualifiers, the leagues.

Ironically they had already lost the right to defend the title before they won it.

Jivin Turkey

PHB wrote:

Thus when say Man Utd win the CL next year, , they will have beaten Liverpool, cause Liverpool will have been knocked out in the round before the pre-qualifiers, the leagues.

Ironically they had already lost the right to defend the title before they won it.

You keep telling yourself that, something tells me a lot of people wont agree with you

mike65

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2093-1641416,00.html

Liverpool seem set to defend the Champions League, but Uefa are considering starting them at the bottom — in the first qualifying round, writes Rob Hughes

LIVERPOOL remain on track to be invited to defend the Champions League title they won in Istanbul last month. Uefa is still working towards a telephone conference among its executive committee before the June 17 meeting in Manchester — with the announcement probably coming a week tomorrow.

However, the road to next season’s tournament is now likely to involve significant sacrifices. Rather than being welcomed straight into the first round proper group phase, Liverpool could be asked to compete from the very start of the qualifying stages, which kick off in mid-July. Furthermore, the club could be asked to forego TV and marketing money from the first group phase.

Sounds like a fair solution - Rafa can put out a mixed team of youngsters and 1st players for rounds 1 and 2 and the big guns for 3rd round. The loss of TV money from the group phase is'nt so bad if one considers the comparison to the UEFA Cup pot though I suspect a deal could be done there too.

Mike.

PHB

Of course Pool fans won't agree with me, they are pool fans

But do you not accept that in a sense, the premiership is a qualifer already?
Liverpool were already in the CL next year, but they have lost their spot.

---

p.s.
How much would the entire world give to see a Liverpool vs. Man Utd match in the Round 3 qualifiers?
What a game that'd be

Emmo

Spoke to a source of mine who reckons that Uefa will enter Liverpool directly into the group stages.

They will not be representing England but will be representing UEFA as the Champions thereby getting around the 5 team rule.

The second thing that they will be doing is to future proof the rule by insisting that Champions allocations come from the country's allocation in future.

Emmo

arbeitsscheuer

If what I am about to say has been posted already then I'm sorry, but I can't be arsed trawling through the last 200 or so posts to make certain. It seems likely that this would've been noted by somebody, but if so then I'll re-iterate...

In 2000, Real Madrid won the UEFA champions league, and finished 5th in the Primera Liga. The Spanish FA decided to have Real Madrid as the representative of Spain rather than the 4th, Real Zaragoza, who were dumped into the UEFA Cup as a result. Therefore the English FA claim that they can't change the rules doesn't hold water as there is a precedent regarding that case.

In addition, Real Zaragoza have repeatedly stated since Liverpool's victory, that if Liverpool are allowed to partake in next year Champ's League (or qualifiers) without the exclusion of Everton, they will take the Spanish FA to court for unfairly excluding them in 2000.

On this score, I will say this... Since Spain suffered at the hands of this rule in 2000, and could not include both Zaragoza and Madrid, THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL THAT ENGLAND SHOULD BE ALLOWED THE CHANCE TO PUT 5 TEAMS INTO THE CHAMPIONS LEAGUE.

Everton or Liverpool must miss out.

Drag00n79

Spain did not try to enter five teams then. The Spanish FA opted for Madrid over Zaragoza. That was their decision not UEFA's. Now it's UEFA's decision. Different scenario.

arbeitsscheuer

Again, I'm sorry if this has already been pointed out but...

The road to Europe
By Jerry Newman. Wednesday, 10 March 2004.

With the season about to reach its conclusion, we clear-up for you how the European places are awarded.

The Champions League - Number of places available: 4

Eligibility

The UEFA Champions League is open to each national association's domestic champions, as well as clubs who finish just behind them in the domestic championship table.

The number of clubs that can be entered by an association and their entry point in the competition depends on the association's position in UEFA's coefficient ranking list.

Who’s in?

The top two Premiership sides will qualify for the competition automatically, while the third and fourth placed teams will enter initially into the qualification rounds, as Chelsea and Newcastle United did this season.

What if?

Should Arsenal or Chelsea win the Champions League, they will automatically qualify for next season's competition but England will not gain an extra Champions League place, even if they finish outside of the top four in the Premiership.

In that scenario the fourth-placed team in the Premiership will play in next season's UEFA Cup.

Under the FA's own rules at the start of the season, Everton must make way for Liverpool.

Personally, I'd like to see a playoff between the 2 teams, or draw them against eachother in the Champ's League Qualifiers, as that guarantees no more than 4 English teams in the Group Stages while ostensibly allowing both Liverpool and Everton the chance to partake in them.

But those ain't the rules - Zaragozagate provided the precedent, Everton must miss out.

astrofool

Emmo wrote:

Spoke to a source of mine who reckons that Uefa will enter Liverpool directly into the group stages.

They will not be representing England but will be representing UEFA as the Champions thereby getting around the 5 team rule.

The second thing that they will be doing is to future proof the rule by insisting that Champions allocations come from the country's allocation in future.

Emmo

Is that not saying one thing for the future, and doing something completely different?

re:sebthebum, UEFA specifically stated that each and every Association could decide the teams they want in the CL, so it is then up to each Association to decide how teams qualify for it, the FA decided that it was the top 4 teams in the premiership, there is no precedent being set anywhere if you give each country its own choice, it would be like saying that each league had to have the same number of clubs, because one country set a precedent.

Anyway, as I said at the start, the winners of the CL should either have their own seperate place, or not (as it is now), and not some halfway, half arsed measure to cover up for a team that wasn't able to perform in its own league.

Emmo

yes its a once off rule loop hole that they will close after its used.

The problem is that Liverpool do have an allocated place as the holders but this goes against the no more than 4 teams from any one association.

They will future proof the rules and close up this loop hole while making the ruling that they want.

The only question is regarding the TV cash (about 20 - 25 million being divided between 5 teams instread of 4) but with Everton being unseeded this might not come to fruition.

Emmo

TheMonster

Jivin Turkey wrote:

But Ill spell it out again for you, the Turkish team have generally automatically qualified for the groups as the team that wins the CL has generally qualified for the groups, thus leaving a free spot in the auto entry for the TH. However, the Turkish teams coefficient does not warrant a automatic place, it is just the way luck has fallen for them that they generally have got it.

Turkey do not lose anything they had a right to, they just dont get the promotion they are not entitled to. If you are so concerned about not changing the rules why should UEFA change their rules and put Turkey in the groups? Seeing as they said at the start of the season that they would play in QR3? But Im sure you wont apply the same logic you have to Liverpool because you dont have a chip on your shoulder against Turkey.

My point is that under the current rules a Turkish team gets promoted to the group stages, that is because the team that won had not qualified under the same rules, yes there is a place allocated if they qaulified under the rules but they haven't (unde the rules) so that place becomes irrelevant. Can you at least admit under the current rules that a Turkish team gets directly into the group statges.

So unless the rules are changed to faciliate Liverpool a Turksih team has auto entry to the group stage and this is the reason they would be have a probelm with Liverpool being admitted straight into the group stages.

Liverpool fans fail to see that what is published regarding the makeup of the rounds all assumed the holders qualified and has no bearing if they don't.

Kingp35

TheMonster wrote:

My point is that under the current rules a Turkish team gets promoted to the group stages, that is because the team that won had not qualified under the same rules, yes there is a place allocated if they qaulified under the rules but they haven't (unde the rules) so that place becomes irrelevant. Can you at least admit under the current rules that a Turkish team gets directly into the group statges.

So unless the rules are changed to faciliate Liverpool a Turksih team has auto entry to the group stage and this is the reason they would be have a probelm with Liverpool being admitted straight into the group stages.

Liverpool fans fail to see that what is published regarding the makeup of the rounds all assumed the holders qualified and has no bearing if they don't.

This is exactly what I meant. Jivin Turkey there it is in front of you. Read it properly and realise with a rule change this turkish side lose out. Without a rule change they enter the group stages. End of story. Your argument is totally and utterly wrong.

PHB wrote:

Liverpool never beat Porto Jivin, does that mean they never actually beat the champions, and inturn never won the league? No because another team beat Porto and knocked them out, then someone beat them, eventually Liverpool beat Porto in the CL. Which I understand. In a sense Liverpool beat Porto to take the crown off them.

The problem however is that you see the Champions league and the Premiership as a seperate compo.

In one sense, ignoring Europe totally, it is a seperate compo. There is seperate prize money etc.

But at the same time, it is a CL qualifier round, it is part of the CL qualifying system, just like the other qualifiers when the Eircom league champs are playing.
It goes,
National League
Pre-Qualifying Round 1
Pre-Qualifying Round 2
Pre-Qualifying Round 2
Group Stages
They had already lost their right to defend it in the first qualifying round of the CL, that being the premiership/serie A/la liga/etc
Just cause they lost in the inital qualifier doesn't mean they should get a bye cause they won.

Thus when say Man Utd win the CL next year, , they will have beaten Liverpool, cause Liverpool will have been knocked out in the round before the pre-qualifiers, the leagues.

Ironically they had already lost the right to defend the title before they won it.

This is exactly why they should not be allowed enter. I pointed out the fact that the premiership is basically a qualifying group for the champions league with yje qualifying rounds acting as the playoffs. Its true that Liverpool never beat porto they lost out to somebody else just like next years champions wont have beaten liverpool because they lost to somebody else.

Well said PHB

spockety

Liverpool beat Porto indirectly this year, as they beat the team who beat the team who beat the team who beat the team who beat Porto in this years Champions League etc..

J.

Kingp35

spockety wrote:

Liverpool beat Porto indirectly this year, as they beat the team who beat the team who beat the team who beat the team who beat Porto in this years Champions League etc..

J.

how wonderfull. The same could be said for all teams

Jivin Turkey

TheMonster wrote:

My point is that under the current rules a Turkish team gets promoted to the group stages, that is because the team that won had not qualified under the same rules, yes there is a place allocated if they qaulified under the rules but they haven't (unde the rules) so that place becomes irrelevant. Can you at least admit under the current rules that a Turkish team gets directly into the group statges.

So unless the rules are changed to faciliate Liverpool a Turksih team has auto entry to the group stage and this is the reason they would be have a probelm with Liverpool being admitted straight into the group stages.

Liverpool fans fail to see that what is published regarding the makeup of the rounds all assumed the holders qualified and has no bearing if they don't.

Kingp35 wrote:

This is exactly what I meant. Jivin Turkey there it is in front of you. Read it properly and realise with a rule change this turkish side lose out. Without a rule change they enter the group stages. End of story. Your argument is totally and utterly wrong.

The Turkish teams coefficient does not warrant a automatic group place. Why should they get promoted automatically to the groups when their performance doesnt warrant it? Its the exact same argument you are using against Liverpool except there is a place for the TH in the groups. Liverpool are the TH.

Adding the Turkish team to the groups also would cause the need for re-organisation of the qualifying rounds because there would be one team less, something you were all against earlier on in the thread.

The Turkish team gets a place (they dont deserve) in the groups by default. If the Champion is from any other country either than Italy, Spain, or England, and doesnt qualify for the groups the Turkish team doesnt get it, because they have not performed well enough to deserve it.

The Turkish team loses out on something they dont deserve to get in the first place. They have no right to the automatic groups stage, and knew this all along.

There is no issue with the Turkish team.

TheMonster

The one point you conveniently forget is that under the current rules the Turkish team qualifies for the group stages. This is not an issue with who warrants waht or derserves what - it is an issue with rules.

To Simplify:
Who currently gets the last qualifying place with the rules as is(i.e. Liverpool not qualifying)?

The Rooster

Its just down to luck whether or not the Turkish team makes the CL group stages or not.

If ManU had won the CL, Turkey would be in the qualifiers.
If Chelsea had won the CL, Turkey would be in the group stages.
If UEFA decide the champions (Liverpool) should automatically qualify for the group stages, Turkey would be in the qualifiers.
If UEFA decide the champions (still Liverpool) should not automatically qualify for the group stages, Turkey would be in the group stages.

Would it be unfair on Turkey if ManU had won the CL? No just hard luck.
Would it be unfair on Turkey if UEFA decide the champions (Liverpool) should automatically qualify for the group stages? No just hard luck.

Common sense really, but you wouldnt expect that from Liverpool haters.

On the other hand, all Liverpool supporters would agree that taking a CL place from Everton and banishing them to the UEFA Cup would have been unfair - not that they wouldnt have taken it in an instant had it been granted, and laughed heartily! But Everton came 4th and deserve their place in the CL - its just hard luck they'll be unseeded in the qualifier. Likewise the turkish champs Fenerbache deserve their place in the CL - what round they'll start off in, they'll wait and see what UEFA decide.

Jivin Turkey

TheMonster wrote:

The one point you conveniently forget is that under the current rules the Turkish team qualifies for the group stages. This is not an issue with who warrants waht or derserves what - it is an issue with rules.

To Simplify:
Who currently gets the last qualifying place with the rules as is(i.e. Liverpool not qualifying)?

It doesnt say in the rules that the Turkish team qualifies for the group stages. In fact it says quite the opposite, it says they start in QR3. I will link the UEFA site again for you, can you please read it this time.

Qualification layout

Who currently gets the last group place? Well it hasnt been decided yet. If I had to lay a bet on it Id say it will be Liverpool.

If a Turkish team were to get it, it would go against the rules as set out at the beginning of the year, something I have accepted can and should happen if the situation warrants, but something you have again and again said shouldnt. Why do you apply different logic to Turkey than you do to Liverpool?

TheMonster

They are not the rules - this is the format the draw takes when the holder has qualified.

Hint. take a look at the Note at the bottom

NOTE: The information included in these lists are provisional and will be confirmed by UEFA in mid-June following the receipt of the official entry documents from each of the national associations.

Now can you answer my question, if the "rules" are applied as is which team gets the the title holders place?

Jivin Turkey

TheMonster wrote:

They are not the rules - this is the format the draw takes when the holder has qualified.

Hint. take a look at the Note at the bottom


Now can you answer my question, if the "rules" are applied as is which team gets the the title holders place?

Where does it say "this is the format when the holder has qualified?". That is the format set out by UEFA

All your note proves is that nothing can be confirmed until mid-June when the teams from each association confirm what teams are entered.

In fact your note also backs up the idea that Liverpool could be confirmed as a team from England despite not being in the top four seeing as its up to the FA to put in whoever they want, and they said last year that if a team wins the CL they will be put in ahead of whoever finishes fourth.

Actually your note also points out that the list of names must be confirmed by the association, but leaves a place for the TH regardless of what teams are entered by the associations.

So to answer your question, and thanks for confirming what I thought, Liverpool would be entered as TH, seeing as they are the TH and there is a space there for them. The only possible issue stopping this is whether UEFA want five teams from England in the competition, an issue that I think will be overcome with a little common sense.

TheMonster

English FA have stated Chelsea, Arsenal, ManUtd and Everton qualify(or have you conveniently forgotten that).
UEFA rules currently stipulate max 4 teams per country - fairly clearcut to me.
List of regulations here - please read 1.01 to 1.03(for some reason won't copy)
http://www.uefa.com/Competitions/UCL/CompetitionInfo/index,newsId=28012.html



BTW Where does it say this format is the rules. It is my understanding and a few others here that this format is totally dependent on the winner qualifying(i.e by the rules of their assocation) and is an information page and not a rules page

Actually your note also points out that the list of names must be confirmed by the association, but leaves a place for the TH regardless of what teams are entered by the associations.

Where?

eirebhoy

Here's a quote from Johansson:

"We can't say yes to Liverpool if it means damaging another club.

The idea of putting Liverpool straight into the group stages is one of the more remote possibilities"

If Liverpool enter they would be top seeds. that means Sporting Lisbon will go from Pot 2 to Pot 3. Is that counted as damaging another club? Just a thought.

Jivin Turkey

TheMonster wrote:

English FA have stated Chelsea, Arsenal, ManUtd and Everton qualify(or have you conveniently forgotten that).

No I havn't, but have you conveniently forgotten that this is in contravention to the rules they set out last season, saying that in the event of a team winning the CL that they would be entered.

I don't remember them ever changing that, and thats because they never did, yet you seem to think it shouldn't apply.

TheMonster wrote:

UEFA rules currently stipulate max 4 teams per country - fairly clearcut to me.

I've acknowledged this umpteen times, but it would be farcical to omit the champions of the competition as a result. Why should any other country bar England, Spain or Italy get an extra place if the champions come from that country?

TheMonster wrote:

List of regulations here - please read 1.01 to 1.03(for some reason won't copy)
http://www.uefa.com/Competitions/UCL/CompetitionInfo/index,newsId=28012.html


BTW Where does it say this format is the rules. It is my understanding and a few others here that this format is totally dependent on the winner qualifying(i.e by the rules of their assocation) and is an information page and not a rules page


Where?

Good link.

The format is the CL 2005/06 access list. The people who are of the opinion that it is dependant on the winners qualifying automatically are neglecting to realise that the draw would need to be completely re-jigged, something that you were all admantly against (are you going to deny that?) originally.

The problem lies with the FA's attempt to pass the buck based on the probability of Liverpool winning the CL being slim.

Its come back to bite them in the ass now, as by their rules, which I do not remember changing since last year, Liverpool should now be in the draw. This is blatantly obvious from their quick attempt to take down the leak before it got into the public domain.

You are constantly changing your arguement from X team will be hurt, to Y team will be hurt, to England can only have 4 teams in the competition. You know as well as I do that Liverpool deserve to be there. The champions have always defended their trophy, despite the times that they have finished outside the league qualification positions.

Jivin Turkey

eirebhoy wrote:

If Liverpool enter they would be top seeds. that means Sporting Lisbon will go from Pot 2 to Pot 3. Is that counted as damaging another club? Just a thought.

I know we have discussed this before, but on further examination of the draw Im pretty sure I have it right here:

- 24 teams start in QR1. 12 go through.
- 16 teams start in QR2, plus the 12 from QR1, 28 in QR2, 14 to go through.
- 18 teams start in QR3, plus the 14 from QR2, 32 in QR3, 16 to go through.
- 15 teams automatically in the groups, plus the 16 from QR3, 31 in the groups.

That leaves 31 teams in the groups, by putting Liverpool in there I fail to see how a team would be disadvantaged.

As I said Im pretty sure I have it right, but my mathematics aint what it used to be so feel free to points flaws in it if Ive made any.

eirebhoy

I can't get my head around this at all Jivin. I'm actually not going to try this time though. I'll just keep my eye on bert's site.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/seedcl2005.html

TheMonster

Jivin Turkey wrote:

No I havn't, but have you conveniently forgotten that this is in contravention to the rules they set out last season, saying that in the event of a team winning the CL that they would be entered.

I don't remember them ever changing that, and thats because they never did, yet you seem to think it shouldn't apply.


I've acknowledged this umpteen times, but it would be farcical to omit the champions of the competition as a result. Why should any other country bar England, Spain or Italy get an extra place if the champions come from that country?


Good link.

The format is the CL 2005/06 access list. The people who are of the opinion that it is dependant on the winners qualifying automatically are neglecting to realise that the draw would need to be completely re-jigged, something that you were all admantly against (are you going to deny that?) originally.

The problem lies with the FA's attempt to pass the buck based on the probability of Liverpool winning the CL being slim.

Its come back to bite them in the ass now, as by their rules, which I do not remember changing since last year, Liverpool should now be in the draw. This is blatantly obvious from their quick attempt to take down the leak before it got into the public domain.

You are constantly changing your arguement from X team will be hurt, to Y team will be hurt, to England can only have 4 teams in the competition. You know as well as I do that Liverpool deserve to be there. The champions have always defended their trophy, despite the times that they have finished outside the league qualification positions.

lol - I am always changing - My argument is that both the English and UEFA rules as they currently stand do not allow for Liverpool to be in and if this was to change it would be to the detriment of other clubs

You vary between
1. deserve to be there
2. English FA change the rules
3. UEFA can accomodate them in the groups

pot calling kettle black

BTW The champions always defending trophy was down to the Spanish FA and was accomdated under the rules(same ones that apply now). As the English FA have made their stance clear there is NO way under the current rules to accomodate Liverpool. At least admit that for UEFA to accomodate them that a rule change is required.

Copy of UEFA Rules attached

Emmo

The rules of the UEFA cup (intercity UEFA cup back then) were changed once back in 1974 for let two teams from the same city compete in the same competition, do you know what teams they where?

they will chage again.

Turkey your spot on with regards to the places available.

The only issue with this is if 5 English teams get into the group stages it reduces the cash for all of them from approx 5Million x 4 Teams into 4Million x 5 teams.

Everton have been complaining the most via the FA according the my source.

If Liverpool do go into the competition which it looks more and more likely too then UEFA will future proof the rules to make sure this issue doesnt happen again and bend the rules slightly without annoying some other nations teams.

For instance if Liverpool go into the 1st round then one of the 24 teams loses out.

If they go in the 2nd round then one of those 28 teams loses out or drops down a step in the 1st round there by annoying two team.

The issue gets more and more compounded the higher Liverpool get entered except at the group stages where they have a position reserved for them.

It doesnt matter if you want them to defend their title or not. They most likely will. By virtue of the fact that they beat all comers, they provided the most viewed and exciting European final of all time and they are wanted to defend their title. A place is reserved for them.

Build a bridge, get over it. Stop being bitter.

Back to the question I posed orginally the teams where Liverpool and Everton back then too. Just another one of those coincidences?

Emmo

Jivin Turkey

TheMonster wrote:

lol - I am always changing - My argument is that both the English and UEFA rules as they currently stand do not allow for Liverpool to be in and if this was to change it would be to the detriment of other clubs

But you've also stated that various teams lose out. Bar the English teams getting diluted earnings (a scenario that would affect every other country bar two should the winner come from that country so I dont see why England should be treated differently), every team you've claimed that would lose out would not lose anything that they were entitled to in the first place.

Hence you've chopped and changed your arguement when you have ran out of things to cover up the main reason that you are against the admittance of Liverpool.

TheMonster wrote:

You vary between
1. deserve to be there
2. English FA changed the rules
3. UEFA can accomodate them in the groups

I don't vary, these are my points. They do deserve to be there, the champions have always been there.

The English FA have (apparently) changed their rules from last year, although they seem to have done this mid-season, something that you base your arguement against Liverpool on.

And UEFA have a place for them in the groups. Something you deny but is the case.

TheMonster wrote:

BTW The champions always defending trophy was down to the Spanish FA and was accomdated under the rules(same ones that apply now).

The champions always defending their trophy is down to a lot more than that. Its down to common sense and honour. Real Madrid were the second team to defend their CL title despite not finishing in the required qualification position through the league, and god knows how many times it happpened as the European Cup (shock horror there was football before the CL :eek: ).

All that is fact. Things like honour and tradition should overrule a bunch of morons who banked that a very possible situation wouldnt arise. Such inept people shouldnt be making rules.

TheMonster wrote:

As the English FA have made their stance clear there is NO way under the current rules to accomodate Liverpool.

The English FA have indicated what their stance is, but there is no way of knowing what their official stance will be until they admit their application in the next week or so.

The English FA have also changed their qualification rules pre-season, something that you are trying to argue can't happen. It is quite clear that this is the case due to the attempt at trying to break the link to where it said it on the official FA site before it reached the public domain. But not surprisingly the boys in suits were a few steps behind everyone else.

TheMonster wrote:

At least admit that for UEFA to accomodate them that a rule change is required.

Copy of UEFA Rules attached

I'll happily admit it. I'm not sure I even said that a rule change wasn't required. I remember asking for clarification or back up to the claims that the CL holders weren't automatically entered and I'm glad I've got it. It was a good link.

TheMonster

I have frequently said I thinks the rules are wrong and that Liverpool should have the chance to defend it, but I cannot see how this can be accomodated under the current rules, to which you have admitted they can't.

AFAIK the FA don't have any hard and fast rules that the top 4 get in, but they have said this is what is happening, I don't believe the article posted on their web site last year was a statement of rules.(I stand corrected on that)

I am not sure as to the legailities of changing the rules now to allow Liverpool in, sas people have stated the league is the qualifier so in affect it a 2 year competion and you are 1/2 way though it now. I am sure UEFA will explore it but I won't be surprised if they are excluded.

The easy decision is status quo.
No appeal from Turkish Club
No appeal from 4 Englsh clubs due to loss of TV earnings.
No appeal from R Zaragoza.

If Liverpool are excluded there are no grounds to appeal on. If they are admitted it becomes a legal mindfield.

RE*AC*TOR

wow lads - you sure have some staying power arguing this point. You should go work in Northern Irish politics (joke).

Jivin Turkey

TheMonster wrote:

I have frequently said I thinks the rules are wrong and that Liverpool should have the chance to defend it, but I cannot see how this can be accomodated under the current rules, to which you have admitted they can't.

Well on reflection it would not actually take a rule change from UEFA to admit them. They could be admitted as a fourth team from England.

It has taken a rule change from the Engligh FA to stop this happening.

TheMonster wrote:

AFAIK the FA don't have any hard and fast rules that the top 4 get in, but they have said this is what is happening, I don't believe the article posted on their web site last year was a statement of rules.(I stand corrected on that)

I dont have the page saved, Im sure someone does. But the text came across as a matter of fact as I remember and set out the rules for last year.

TheMonster wrote:

I am not sure as to the legailities of changing the rules now to allow Liverpool in, sas people have stated the league is the qualifier so in affect it a 2 year competion and you are 1/2 way though it now. I am sure UEFA will explore it but I won't be surprised if they are excluded.

The easy decision is status quo.
No appeal from Turkish Club
No appeal from 4 Englsh clubs due to loss of TV earnings.
No appeal from R Zaragoza.

If Liverpool are excluded there are no grounds to appeal on. If they are admitted it becomes a legal mindfield.

The Turkish club would have no claim what so ever. They are not entitled to an automatic CL place.

I doubt the English teams would have a claim. Would any other association (bar Eng/Spa/Ita) have a claim if the winner came from there? No. Even IF it were the case UEFA could just apply FA logic and hope one of the qualifiers doesnt make it to the groups. Liverpool could even forego payment, Im sure they would for the chance to compete. Problem solved.

Zaragoza wouldnt have a case because they willingly accepted payment in lieu.

Hardly a legal minefield. Pretty straight forward actually.

Also refer to para 30.01 "Unforseen circumstances". No problem amending the rules if needs be.

PHB

The 'legal minefield' will come from Arsenal United Chelsea and Everton who will promtly say, wtf, you just cause us one million euro?
You think those clubs will sit back happily accepting that?

Jivin Turkey

PHB wrote:

The 'legal minefield' will come from Arsenal United Chelsea and Everton who will promtly say, wtf, you just cause us one million euro?
You think those clubs will sit back happily accepting that?

For a start two of those three will have to qualify for the groups for such a scenario to arise.

Secondly, if you had read what I said, Im sure Liverpool would forego any tv payments if it meant that they could compete in the competition.

Emmo

thats assuming that both United and Everton (and Liverpool) all get into the group stages from the qualifiers.

While United are seeded Everton are not and I dont hold out much hope for them accross a two leged tie with a decent side from Europe.

The TV cash is only divied up at the group stages, till then its just sponsership and gate recipets that teams get including any independant deals they might have with broadcasters or sponsers.

Everton seem to be treating this as some kind of huge pay day. Its not at all. Its only 5 Million when the TV figures are accounted.

Without the Champions invovled it is estimated that the entire TV revnenues could fall by 1 or 2% which is why the sponsers have been canvessing on behalf of Liverpool.

Emmo

TheMonster

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Well on reflection it would not actually take a rule change from UEFA to admit them. They could be admitted as a fourth team from England.

I don't dispute that but assuming the English FA don't back down, a UEFA rule change is needed.

Jivin Turkey wrote:

It has taken a rule change from the Engligh FA to stop this happening.

I dont have the page saved, Im sure someone does. But the text came across as a matter of fact as I remember and set out the rules for last year.

The Turkish club would have no claim what so ever. They are not entitled to an automatic CL place.

Thats where you are wrong - if the UEFA rules are applied - (the regualtions I posted) then a turkish team gets the last group spot. So to suddenly change those rules deprives them of the spot. They would not have the spot had Milan won it but beause Liverpool had not qualified they do now have the spot.

I doubt the English teams would have a claim. Would any other association (bar Eng/Spa/Ita) have a claim if the winner came from there? No. Even IF it were the case UEFA could just apply FA logic and hope one of the qualifiers doesnt make it to the groups. Liverpool could even forego payment, Im sure they would for the chance to compete. Problem solved.

If Liverpool forgoe payment not an issue if not then it is, even if Everton did get knocked out instead if 3 teams sharing there would be 4. Whatever way you look at it the existing teams are deprived of income.

Zaragoza wouldnt have a case because they willingly accepted payment in lieu.

How do you know this? Have you proof? Can you not accept if the rules are changed now that Zaragiza would have got if the same change was applied then?

Jivin Turkey

TheMonster wrote:

I don't dispute that but assuming the English FA don't back down, a UEFA rule change is needed.

Refer to "Unforseen circumstances" paragraph of the rules. Basically a disclaimer meaning that UEFA can amend as they see fit.

TheMonster wrote:

Thats where you are wrong - if the UEFA rules are applied - (the regualtions I posted) then a turkish team gets the last group spot. So to suddenly change those rules deprives them of the spot. They would not have the spot had Milan won it but beause Liverpool had not qualified they do now have the spot.

Applications for entries to the CL have not yet closed. So as of yet there is no Turkish team in the group stages.

And for the millionth time, the Turks are not entitled to an automatic group place going by their coefficient, they do not have a case.

TheMonster wrote:

If Liverpool forgoe payment not an issue if not then it is

If this was the only hurdle stopping them then I think it is pretty obvious they would forfeit the couple of million tv money.

TheMonster wrote:

even if Everton did get knocked out instead if 3 teams sharing there would be 4. Whatever way you look at it the existing teams are deprived of income.

But if Everton (or United ) qualify, its ok? Either they are deprived income or not.

TheMonster wrote:

How do you know this? Have you proof? Can you not accept if the rules are changed now that Zaragiza would have got if the same change was applied then?

Zaragoza received money for not competing. Now Im no law expert but in general if you receive compensation in lieu of something, you cant really come back after (particularly after you have probably consumed said compenstion) and say I want more.

If the rules were changed now it would have no bearing on a previous competition. Ill put a question to you, why not admit Liverpool because they came 4th in 1997, it qualifies now, why not then?

When it comes down to it, the English FA have changed their rules depriving LFC of a place in this years competition. UEFA have the power to change the rules. The holder has always defended the title. I dont expect next year to be different.

Emmo

it would seem that the Turks where a little bit more powerful that expected and wouldnt let go of their spot

By Chris Bascombe, Liverpool Echo


LIVERPOOL'S entry into next season's European Cup is set to be confirmed tomorrow after a powerful high ranking Turkish delegate threw his weight behind the holders.

It's been widely presumed the Turks were against the move to hand Rafa Benitez's side a place in this year's competition.

Fenerbahce were worried they would lose their automatic qualification spot if the European champs were successful.

However, that's not going to be the case. The increasingly likely compromise is the Reds will be entered into the third qualifying round alongside Manchester United and Everton.

The UEFA senior vice-president is Turkish delegate Senes Erjik and he is understood to be backing this proposal.

Erjik is a powerful figure within the organisation. He's second in command to Lennart Johannson and is tipped to take over the Presidency when the 75-year-old steps down.

Having fought to assure Fenerbahce of their place, Erjik is now believed to be lobbying support for Liverpool's right to defend their title.

The club who will miss out on Champions League football is expected to come from either San Marino or Andorra, one of whom will be withdrawn from the first qualifying round.

This will have a knock-on effect, creating a vacancy for Liverpool to enter as top seeds in the third qualifier in August.

The most contentious topic of discussion for the committee, which meets tomorrow, isn't Liverpool's right to defend their title. No European champion has ever been denied that privilege since the competition began and the majority of members support Liverpool's cause.

Of more concern is the repercussions of an unprecedented five clubs from one Football Association participating. Financially, this will impact on the share of the lucrative market pool.

As it stands, if all reach the group stage, five rather than four clubs share an estimated £52m. That means Liverpool, Everton, Manchester United, Chelsea and Arsenal would get £10.4m each rather than £13m.

The further the clubs get, the greater their share of the market pool. If all five clubs then reached the knockout stage, or even the last eight, their share of earnings would inevitably be less than in previous years when four clubs divided the cash allocated to their association.

UEFA also know they will have to clarify the rules for future tournaments in the event of a repeat of the current farce.

The example of 2000 when Real Madrid were given a place ahead of Real Zaragoza has been widely interpreted as a missed opportunity.

However, in UEFA's defence, the Champions League format was different then as there were only four groups in the competition.

UEFA didn't want any of the groups to include two clubs from the same association - a policy still in place. Since then, the format has changed and there are eight groups.

Technically, UEFA could amend the rules to allow a maximum of eight teams from one association, and still ensure they didn't meet during the group stage.

In 2000, Real Madrid finished outside a qualifying position in La Liga but entered the Champions League in the group stage as number one seeds.

Liverpool believe the same should apply to them, but if a compromise is reached and they enter the final qualifying round, they're not likely to launch an appeal.

---

Emmo

~Rebel~

Nice to know the top 2 are in our favour at least. It really is lookin more and more likely 'pool will be in at some level, hopefully 3rd round as 1st round would cause havoc with their fixtures in japan.

The Rooster

Emmo wrote:

The club who will miss out on Champions League football is expected to come from either San Marino or Andorra, one of whom will be withdrawn from the first qualifying round.

This will have a knock-on effect, creating a vacancy for Liverpool to enter as top seeds in the third qualifier in August.

Apparently thats not true. The champs of San Marino and Andorra only ever get into the UEFA Cup.

If Liverpool do get parachuted into the final qualifying round, the team to lose out will be the Slovakian champions it seems. They will have to play an extra qualifying round. It is proposed Slovakia will be compensated by awading Liverpool's place in the UEFA Cup to an additional team from Slovakia rather than giving it to the next best English team, i.e. Man City.

redspider

Its looking more and more likely that Liverpool will get in. The fixtures will be sorted out, thats easier than the money part. But those divvying up rules can be adjusted in a fair way, perhaps re-distributing parts from the top clubs so no club/country loses out any significant amount, essentially increasing the English slice of the pie, and decreasing others. The formula is complex, well not really once its written down, and it can be adjusted, as long as the main stakeholders are willing to do some level of compromise.

eg: Man U getting 12.5m instead of 13m. They aren't going to complain about that, surely?

One thing is for sure though, I am positive that Uefa will in future mandate that the Title Holder gets the TH spot in the draw, wherever they come in their domestic league, and so get rid of this problem once and for all. I dont think Uefa will be too happy with the English FA at the end of the saga.

I'd say its gonna happen. Liverpool will be in the CL somewhere.

Thanks Lennart, and those that support football.

No thanks to those begrudgers and bureacrats and the "rules are rules" camp.

Redspider

PHB

Its nice to see you can respect other peoples opinions redspider