Gardai shooting to kill?

Moriarty

Trotter wrote:

You cant arrest someone for an armed robbery they havent committed yet.

Uhm, actually I'm fairly sure you can. "Conspiracy to commit.." ring a bell?

mycroft

tim3115 wrote:

I'd rather not actually, thanks for your input though. Give them the toughest time possible in prison, making them serve their actual sentence. If you're a repeat offender, hit them hard, very hard.

I can't understand the prison system here. I was listening to Newstalk106 this morning, had this prison warden on from the US. Had the right idea and it's a pity we don't follow suit. 2 meals a day, tough conditions, 23 hours inside for some and so on...

And yet the USA has the largest amount of prisoners than any western country and executes more people than any democratic state. Yet has a massive violent crime rate, executes more minors, and still has the largest prison population. Thats the model you think we should base ourselves on?

What an attitude. How can you have sympathy for these folk? I'd rather give my good hard earned money to people I actually care about, people who deserve it.

And again the cynic would suggest that the scant euros spent rehabilitilating some junkie compared to the several hundred euro I'll have to potentially spend post break in. If you're going at this on a purely economic POV, it financial makes more sense to invest in proven prisoner rehabilitation programs that cost a few euros a taxpayer than the burden of insurance costs for a selection of tax payers who are the victims of crime. Play the %.

It damned him alright, one bullet sorted that out fairly quickly. Why on earth would you want to rehabilitate people like this? I would think you have similar opinions regarding sex offenders? It wouldn't surprise me really.

Classy imply I support paedophiles and rapists, way to seize the high moral ground.

Totally off topic, but yes, why not? There's no turning back, no matter what way you look at it. If the problem hasn't been tackled early on, then that's it.

Then enlighten us with your progressive POV how would you tackle these offenders early on?

mycroft

Moriarty wrote:

Uhm, actually I'm fairly sure you can. "Conspiracy to commit.." ring a bell?

Not to be cyncial but the crime of commiting is far more serious than conspiracy to commit. I would cyncially suggest that recent high profile gun crimes, murders, and robberies led to this situation, and the police may have been forced into this showdown by political forces eager to make a high profile, hard on crime bust.

billy the squid

CJhaughey wrote:

Sorry, been away for a while and this thread developed way faster than I could respond to.
I was not likening the Gardai to the RUC of the 70's -80's.
I was asking the question based either correctly or incorrectly on my recollection that nearly every incident that armed Gardai are in attendance appears to result in a Casualty/Fatality, not always the criminals as in this case but also in Abbeyleix (Garda killed and injured) and Abbeylara (man shot dead).
I asked are the gardai adequately trained or trigger happy?
It seems the more information that comes to light the more questionable the tactics employed by the gardai are.
Had they had not thought that the Robbers might use a back/side door?

The ERU spent several weeks in Limerick in a high profile manner and no one died by their hands while they were there.

You have to understand. The guarda that fired the shots that killed these bank robbers had to make a split second decision. "There is a man in front of me pointing a gun at me, do I take him down or do i join Jerry McCabe and all the other guards who have been killed in the line of duty.?"

That is another thing to consider. who has killed more. have the guards killed more criminals or have criminals killed more guards.

bounty

yea, the squid is right, the guards must have been put in a life or death situation, or else they wouldnt have fired

well, we can't say that for sure, but i have confidence enough in the guardai that this is the only situation that they would shoot at someone

Trotter

Moriarty wrote:

Uhm, actually I'm fairly sure you can. "Conspiracy to commit.." ring a bell?

I was just passing on the opinion of one of RTE's crime reporters.. He said the DPP wouldnt touch it for fear of them not having enough evidence to convict. He basically said you had to catch them in the act.

Dyr

bounty wrote:

yea, the squid is right, the guards must have been put in a life or death situation, or else they wouldnt have fired

The gardai put themselves and the public in a life or death situation through their own muppetry, they never thought of covering all the entrances, they shoudn't be allowed out on their own, let alone allowed firearms :mad:

bounty wrote:

well, we can't say that for sure, but i have confidence enough in the guardai that this is the only situation that they would shoot at someone

I don't. And its gonna take more than an internal "inquiry" by one of their own to satisfy me as the whether thats the case or not

Turner

Bambi wrote:

probably becasue the gardai appeared to have set up an ambush rather than intervene before the raid was in progress to make arrests

As the garda press officer said they set up hundereds of stings every week based on intelligence gathered.. Very few actually have positive results such as major drug finds / apprehending major criminals.

This one paid off by excellent intellegence gathering and the gardai couldnt know for sure that it was going to happen until the raiders actually entered the post office.

The ERU dont havent been sitting around on the asses since abbeylara I presume they conduct raids / stings every week.

And as for catching the robbers before they entered the post office, you would have one man caught in posession of a illegal firearm - max he'd get in court 3-5 years.

One man in posession of a sledge hammer, "garda im a builder i need it for work", no judge would convict.

And 3 men sitting in a car... hardly a jailable offence.


Excellent work by the detectives / ERU involved and a satisfactory outcome. Read in the examiner that 98% of people agreed with how the Gardai had handles the incident.

L5

Im glad 2 of them were killed. Its a pity all 5 werent.
That kind of scum think they can get away with anything in this country, hopefully now they'll think twice before trying something like this again.
pure scum, ive no sympathy for them at all.

murphaph

Moriarty wrote:

Uhm, actually I'm fairly sure you can. "Conspiracy to commit.." ring a bell?

Is there such an offence as conspiracy in ireland? I thought there wasn't.

pete

Chief--- wrote:

This one paid off by excellent intellegence gathering and the gardai couldnt know for sure that it was going to happen until the raiders actually entered the post office.

It's a pity their "excellent intelligence" didn't include the fact that there was a back door....

And as for catching the robbers before they entered the post office, you would have one man caught in posession of a illegal firearm - max he'd get in court 3-5 years.

... in your opinion. IANAL, but the Criminal Justice Act, 1984 appears to say:

14. —(1) Section 15 of the Firearms Act, 1925 , as amended by section 21 (4) of the Criminal Law (Jurisdiction) Act, 1976 (possessing firearm or ammunition with intent to endanger life or cause serious injury to property) is hereby amended by the substitution, for "imprisonment for a term not exceeding fourteen years", of "imprisonment for life".

(2) Section 26 (1) of the Firearms Act, 1964 , as amended by section 21 (6) (b) of the Criminal Law (Jurisdiction) Act, 1976 (possession of firearm while taking vehicle without authority) is hereby amended by the substitution, for "seven years", of "fourteen years".

(3) Section 27 (2) of the Firearms Act, 1964 , as amended by section 21 (6) (c) of the Criminal Law (Jurisdiction) Act, 1976 (use of firearm to resist arrest or aid escape) is hereby amended by the substitution for "imprisonment for a term not exceeding fourteen years", of "imprisonment for life".

(4) Section 27A (1) of the Firearms Act, 1964 , inserted by section 8 of the Criminal Law (Jurisdiction) Act, 1976 (possession of firearm or ammunition in suspicious circumstances) is hereby amended by the substitution, for "five years", of "ten years".

(5) Section 27B (1) of the Firearms Act, 1964 , inserted by section 9 of the Criminal Law (Jurisdiction) Act, 1976 (carrying firearm with criminal intent) is hereby amended by the substitution, for "ten years", of "fourteen years".

There were some minor amendments in 1998 to include the option of fines and / or imprisonment, but I don't believe the maximum sentences have been revised downwards. I may of course be wrong.

One man in posession of a sledge hammer, "garda im a builder i need it for work", no judge would convict.

Based on prior cases such as...?

Call Me Jimmy

pete "based on prior cases such as?" eh well if the guys outside the shop look like they wont be convicted cause they "didn't kno what was going on inside" then I'm guessing a guy walking along the street with a sledgehammer isn't gonna get convicted now is?

nanook

*

nanook

this is one of those debates that will always ponder on in life.
Did the guards use to much force....... ?
did the robbers indicate that they would not give up ......... ?
who fired first ........... ?
why where they not given warning shot ......... ?
why is there a shoot to kill policey .......... ?


This is my opinion and it goes simply, two scumbags are no longer able to terrorise people. Two scumbags got their just deserves and they received their kudos. People will shout that it was unfair for the loss of two lives, to them i ask one question.

During the incident before the ERU arrived, and this is only going from media reports, the raiders were proceeding to demolish a secure glass partition with a sledge hammer. To demolish these things takes some strength and planning.
Now what would have happened if they had gotten through the partation and found that the safe was time locked and could not be opened?
How many deaths/injuries would have occured then?

I have experienced this at first hand and have stared down a double barrell sawn off shot gun and i am still terrified at work.
When you have experienced an armed robbery and can live to tell the tale (life is good) then tell me that 2 scumbags that have died was uncalled for and the should have been wounded.

The police did their job and are now being scrutinised for doing it.

pete

Call Me Jimmy wrote:

pete "based on prior cases such as?" eh well if the guys outside the shop look like they wont be convicted cause they "didn't kno what was going on inside" then I'm guessing a guy walking along the street with a sledgehammer isn't gonna get convicted now is?

I presume you're referring to the 2 men and 1 woman released from police custody last night, and I presume also that you are aware that a file is being prepared for the DPP. It's a little early to be talking about them not being convicted when we don't know what charges - if any - will be brought.

pete

murphaph wrote:

Is there such an offence as conspiracy in ireland? I thought there wasn't.

Gavin Farrelly, 28, with an address at 42 Lower Sheriff St, was charged last night at Blanchardstown Garda Station with possession of a firearm and with intent to commit a robbery.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0528/dublin.html

murphaph

Hmmm, interesting. The RTE crime correspondent said there were "no conspiracy laws in Ireland". Is there a difference between intent and conspiracy? I always thought conspiracy involved more than one individual, no?

Quantum

pete wrote:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0528/dublin.html

Is that a yes ? (conspiracy) I can't find anything on the justice web site on this....

pete

murphaph wrote:

I always thought conspiracy involved more than one individual, no?

Quantum wrote:

Is that a yes ? (conspiracy) I can't find anything on the justice web site on this....

Sorry, I should have quoted post #209.

i.e.

Trotter wrote:

You cant arrest someone for an armed robbery they havent committed yet.

Gavin Farrelly, 28, with an address at 42 Lower Sheriff St, was charged last night at Blanchardstown Garda Station with possession of a firearm and with intent to commit a robbery.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0528/dublin.html

Call Me Jimmy

pete i didnt make my point very well, i meant to say that the gardai were gonna have a hard time getting any sort of a serious conviction for the people u refer to, and that a person with a sledgehammer can simply say they are knocking down a wall in their back garden or some such ****. There was a case some time back ( i am not sure of when or where but it was in ireland) when an establishment was blown up by a guy who had been carrying 2 huge containers of petrol and he just said his car broke down and he wasnt convicted (this is something i have heard so i cant be 100 percent sure)

Trotter

Bambi wrote:

The gardai put themselves and the public in a life or death situation through their own muppetry, they never thought of covering all the entrances, they shoudn't be allowed out on their own, let alone allowed firearms :mad:



I don't. And its gonna take more than an internal "inquiry" by one of their own to satisfy me as the whether thats the case or not

All this anti garda sentiment is ridiculous.. you dont know what happened on the ground, you dont know how the ERU are trained, and you dont know any of the individuals involved.

Bambi wrote:

they shoudn't be allowed out on their own, let alone allowed firearms

Thats a ridiculous statement. You'd prefer to have these criminal gangs do what they like? Exactly how should yesterday have been handled so? Before answering that, bear in mind you DONT know exactly what happened on the ground.

My answer to that would be its grossly unfair to call them "Muppets" when you have no clue what happened before during or after the raid. If you were in a post office with a sawn off shotgun at your head, you'd be wetting yourself hoping one of those "muppets" would shoot the scumbag and dont say you wouldnt. Nobody is that heroic.

Dyr

If its true that they failed to cover all the entry points into the building (which is what the gardai appear to be saying)then they're muppets imo


Look trotter, you've made plenty of brilliantly inaccurate and unfounded statements on this thread with other people to have to constantly correct you, so its a bit rich to tell me i dont know EXACTLY what happened on the ground. What appears to have happened was a massive balls up which could have had far worse consequences than two dead bogeys.

Allow me to digress, i guy i knew as a kid was involved in a "political" bank job that went wrong, their car was rammed by gardai everyone arrested. All fair and proper. One of the cops then discharged this guys shotgun because they wanted to claim they were fired on to earn these lads stiffer sentences. Kind backfired on them as the lads arm was shattered on the crash so they'd have to explain how he fired a shotgun with one hand. so yeah damn right i dont trust the gardais word in this kind of incident

Trotter

Bambi wrote:

Look trotter, you've made plenty of brilliantly inaccurate and unfounded statements on this thread with other people to have to constantly correct you, so its a bit rich to tell me i dont know EXACTLY what happened on the ground. What appears to have happened was a massive balls up which could have had far worse consequences than two dead bogeys.

Anything Ive said has been from what Ive heard on Radio or TV. Why is there always someone who gets personal??

You're right Bambi in everything you have said.. I ask anyone not to disagree with your opinion because they will be labelled as brilliantly inaccurate.

Anyway.. back up your statement

Bambi wrote:

"you've made plenty of brilliantly inaccurate and unfounded statements on this thread with other people to have to constantly correct you, so its a bit rich to tell me i dont know EXACTLY what happened on the ground."

Its rich in your opinion, but at least Ive had full respect for those that disagree with me. And by the way..rich or not, you are making assertions against the Gardai which .. in my opinion.. arent fair.

Isnt having an opinion what boards is about? If everyone had to take that abuse then nobody would bother post. Now.. as I said.. back up your statement.

pete

Call Me Jimmy wrote:

pete i didnt make my point very well, i meant to say that the gardai were gonna have a hard time getting any sort of a serious conviction for the people u refer to, and that a person with a sledgehammer can simply say they are knocking down a wall in their back garden or some such ****.

With all due respect, I sincerely doubt this defence would be believed, given the totality of evidence.

There was a case some time back ( i am not sure of when or where but it was in ireland) when an establishment was blown up by a guy who had been carrying 2 huge containers of petrol and he just said his car broke down and he wasnt convicted (this is something i have heard so i cant be 100 percent sure)

That sounds familiar.... Unless I'm mistaken, you're possibly thinking of the Stephen "Rossi" Walsh case in 1994 which featured a similar defence. If I remember correctly, the bauld Rossi (sorry - "Stíofan Breathnach", as he now likes to be known) was discovered in the smouldering wreckage of Collins pub in Ballybough, beside a couple of petrol cans.

His defence was something along the lines of "Who? Me? Sure I was just passing through."

Mr. Breathnach is currently serving a 15 year sentence for arson.

Dyr

I make the effort not to present veiwpoints that are not supported by the facts. like the idea that people who shoot gardai will be out on TR in no time or that the gardai can only arrest you if you're actually pointing a gun at someone while demanding money. You dont seem to think that your own opinions/statements have to live up to the standards that you (rightly) expect of others. if that's getting personal, then i apologise. It probably came across in more confrontational manner than it was intended, and if a mod aint happy about it I'll gladly edit

BTW what am supposed to be back up? that the gardai messed up in lusk or that i doubt the integrity of some of their members?

Dyr

pete wrote:

His defence was something along the lines of "Who? Me? Sure I was just passing through."

oh yeah I remember that. that was funny lol, some neck on him

Trotter

Bambi wrote:

I make the effort not to present veiwpoints that are not supported by the facts. like the idea that people who shoot gardai will be out on TR in no time or that the gardai can only arrest you if you're actually pointing a gun at someone while demanding money. You dont seem to think that your own opinions/statements have to live up to the standards that you (rightly) expect of others. if that's getting personal, then i apologise. It probably came across in more confrontational manner than it was intended, and if a mod aint happy about it I'll gladly edit

BTW what am supposed to be back up? that the gardai messed up in lusk or that i doubt the integrity of some of their members?

I meant back up your statement that Im constantly being corrected.. Anyways, it dosnt matter, dont worry about it.

As regards temporary release for police killers being an inaccurate fact that I need to be constantly corrected about...

From RTE.ie 14 December 2000
"Yesterday, RTÉ News revealed that one of the killers of Detective McCabe, who was granted temporary release to visit his sick mother, spent a night in a hotel with a woman. A second man released to visit his sick father was found in a pub in Donegal when it was raided by the Gardaí after hours. The Garda Representative Association has strongly criticised the insensitivity of the Department of Justice in releasing the men who it says are clearly abusing the system of temporary release.

Fine Gael's spokesperson on Justice, Michael Noonan, described the temporary release of the men as "quite appalling". Mr Noonan said that he had been informed that the decision to release prisoners was founded on letters from general practitioners, which in each case claimed that a close relative of each prisoner was seriously ill."

And from Irishabroad.com "The four are now serving their sentence in the low-security jail in Castlerea. They have been freed on occasion on temporary release, to the annoyance of both McCabe’s widow Ann and the Garda Representative Association. "

Theres plenty more too.

And.. I didnt mean that you could only be arrested if you're actually pointing a gun at someone while demanding money. My point was that the DPP will not persue a case unless there is more than enough evidence to convict, and I was only echoing the opinions of crime reporters in the media (Not The Sun btw).. as can be seen in the "petrol can man" example.

So.. My opinions are grounded on what I read in the media.

DublinWriter

Bambi wrote:

rubbish, take a look at the amount of time anyone who has shot a cop in this country has done. last i knew, The death sentence was still technically on the books for this very reason.

The death sentance was removed from the books here in the mid-90's. The last people to be sentanced for death in this country where the bank-robbers who shot that Guard in St.Anne's Park in Raheny in 1979, the names escape me, but even by then, the death-sentance usually meant 'natural-life' in prision (they were released in the mid 90's).

To be honest, the robbers had to be caught in the act. End of story. There was no other way to prove intent.

Secondly, to all the bleeding hearts who are arueging about two robbers getting shot while only one was armed, rumour has it that the Guards only fired one shot. One gang-member was fatally wounded by a bullet entering and exiting him and entering another robber standing closeby, who died hours later.

Don't try and twist this to be anything other than it is. It's a result, plain and simple.

Considering, at the time, the number of armed detectives around and number of unharmed civilians, this is a complete vindication of the discipline and training methods of An Garda Siochana. If this had have happened in the states, it would have been a complete bullet-fest with numerous civilian casualties.

murphaph

DublinWriter wrote:

...rumour has it that the Guards only fired one shot. One gang-member was fatally wounded by a bullet entering and exiting him and entering another robber standing closeby, who died hours later.

I hope that's true. It's absolutely hilarious to think the scumbag met his death like that. Somebody stated earlier that "nobody on here was rejoicing in yer man's death". Wrong! I am. I think it's wonderful that they're dead. I was disappointed that the Garda commisioner saw fit to send condolences to their familes. Almost apologetic it was and the Gardai have nowt to be apologising for. That Garda should get a medal for putting a couple of scumbags out of commission. I'm against the death penalty by the way, because mistakes can be made but when scum are shot dead in the middle of the act then fcuk 'em all to hell.

The Gardai are not always the most competent bunch but I thought that was a first rate result. Just a pity the other 3 left with pulses.

Dyr

I thought the death sentence might have been done away with by now, which is why i said "the last i heard"

AFAIR my old man knew that woman who shot that guard, She actually smacked the guy in the head with the gun while running away and the gun went off and blew the poor f****rs head off. She did serious time too. I might be wrong though if it was that incident.