Summons for illegal right turn...

jasonb

I agree Tony, need to keep an eye out for those things, I know I was in the wrong. I guess my initial shock was 'I'm going to court for turning right when I shouldn't have?' Especially cos it happened 6 months ago, and I had pretty much forgotten about it. Shouldn't the Gardai tell you if you're going to be summoned at the time? When someone says 'be more careful next time' to you, that sounds like a warning and nothing else to me...

the_syco

Traffic wrote:

If it was on Georges St turning onto Dame St there are plenty of signs warning that this turn is indeed banned and yes you would of been driving in a bus lane too.

2nd week of January, this year, whilst waiting for a mate nearby, I saw a car getting pulled over at least every 2 minutes by a copper. He just stood there. Sometime's he'd pull over one, and pull over another whilst talking to the 1st one.
The reason why that street is busses only, is because of traffic congestion. No cars, busses only, and the busses get out of the city quicker.

dahamsta

jasonb wrote:

What's the situation regarding the Garda not turning up? Is this a common occurence? If it happens, I guessing that you still go up in front of the Judge, but there's a good chance it'll be thrown out?

No chance, it just will. With simple traffic offences the Garda is the "evidence"; if there's no evidence, there's no case.

adam

unkel

dahamsta wrote:

With simple traffic offences the Garda is the "evidence"; if there's no evidence, there's no case.

I presume only when you plead "not guilty"? Would you know if the Garda isn't there before you have to plead?

dahamsta

unkel wrote:

I presume only when you plead "not guilty"? Would you know if the Garda isn't there before you have to plead?

It was a good while back when it happened to me so I can't remember for definite, but I'm pretty sure the case simply couldn't proceed without the Garda present. So yes, that would imply that a Garda has to present themself before a plea is entered, or the case is removed from the docket.

I was delighted when my Garda didn't show anyway, she was accusing me of being 40 over the limit in a 30, on her speedo, which I didn't believe and would have had to challenge. But it was my word against hers, it probably would have resulted in a hefty fine or an endorsement.

adam

daymobrew

I wonder if there is a way for you to pay a fine and avoid the inconvenience of going to court. It would save you time, and the State money.

Since it was so long ago, I wonder if a fine was sent out and since you didn't pay it (because you didn't get it), the next stage is a summons.

samo

daymobrew wrote:

I wonder if there is a way for you to pay a fine and avoid the inconvenience of going to court. It would save you time, and the State money.

Since it was so long ago, I wonder if a fine was sent out and since you didn't pay it (because you didn't get it), the next stage is a summons.

there's a similar thing in place for parking tickets alright...I got a parking ticket some years abck for €19 which I (deliberatly!) didnt pay as was in a rental car at the time so in my own mind figured it wouldnt come back on me...about 2 months on I got a summons in the post with a date to appear in court and everything but there was an option that if I paid double the fine..€38 then I didnt have to go to court. I duly paid the €38 cursing myself for not paying the €19 in the 1st place.

When I asked someone about it who'd be purports to be 'up' on these things about it afterwards, she suggested this is the normal course of action for traffic violations that do not incur penalty points.

Redshift

Stekelly wrote:

How can it be quota filling? If no one broke laws, how would they fill quotas then? Should the guards pick and choose which laws to enforce? If you saw someone doing something blatently in front of a guard and he did nothing, I bet you'd be at the top of the que to call the guard incompetent and question where our tax money is going.

Sorry I should have been clearer, I have no issues at all with the guards enforcing all of the road traffic laws infact I appluad them for doing so. My comment with regards quota filling referred only to the unnecessary act of dragging this driver to court when an on the spot fine or a stern ticking off or both would suffice. A court appearance ties up the legal system, the driver and the guard unnecessarily when they all could be doing more productive things.

vasch_ro

edmund_f wrote:

i would imagine, given a reasonable judge that if you free and openly state the facts of what happened the the judge will be in a better position to determine guilt or innocence. If he has not given a statement, i would assume, that the file that he will be making his decision on will only contain infomation provided by the cop?.

I did not think guilt or innocence was on question here, just the sentence?

Okay lets clear up a few things here, firstly in this country there is a presumption of Innonence , its the bedrock of our legal system .

The statement stuff is a load of crap. On the day in question in court there will be a callover of the cases on the list. Any case's that can be dealt with there and then, will be dealt with (normally where is a plea of guilty).
If there is a not guilty plea entered ( which even in this case u would be allowed to make ) the case gets put back on the list .Either way guilty or not guilty the Garda will get into the box , take the oath and give in his/her opinion what happened on the day , he will also be required to mention a legal proof or two in this case that it happened in a public place ( if not happy days ), if u plead guilty the judge may or may not ask u why u turned against the sign, if u plead not guilty you will be sworn into the box and then can give your side of the case
The judge then makes a decision. For a first offence where there was no immediate danger to any other road users a small fine will be the order of the day .

For a prosecution to occur the Garda concerned will have to be in court that day.There is no requirement to tell you whether you wll be prosecuted or not, although some may argue its good manners.

It is not always possible to issue a ticket on the spot for example some offences are not catered for with the ticket system, the driver may contest that he did anything wrong etc etc. To say that you are clogging up the courts by bringing a matter like this to court is silly . The courts are designed to hear cases like this , thats what they are for , if they cannot cope wit the volume or case load then that is a matter for the Court Service who should provide more courts!!

NUTLEY BOY

Worked in insurance claims in a previous life and saw this sort of nonsense periodically.

A general principle of criminal law is that a defendant cannot be guilty of an offence if they had no intention of doing the act. However, road traffic offences seem to fall into a special catergory where that nicety does not seem to apply. They seem to go on the basis that proof of commission of the wrongful act raises a presumption of guilt.

Onus of proof resting on the prosecution ! You wonder at times !!

This puts you in the unhappy position of having to prove your innocence ! In practical terms, you need to have a really good excuse if you are going to plead NOT guilty and hope for acquittal.

If you decide to plead guilty you save the prosecuting garda some work. However, I think that they will still need to give evidence of the facts to allow the judge to assess the seriousness or otherwise of your case.

If pleading guilty you just focus on mitigating facts to lighten the sentence. A good opening gambit might be to tell the "Justice" that you are very sorry but that you made a simple mistake. Explain your mitigating facts. Are you familiar with Dublin ? Heavy traffic volumes ? Concentrating on traffic and pedestrians in darkness and you missed the sign ?

I think that it is lousy of the gardai to prosecute you for this. I think that you have been most unlucky. Any one of us could make a similarly simple mistake. Lets hope the garda has something better to do and does not turn up.

If you get a bum decision you can always appeal to the Circuit Court where it is also not unknown for Gardai to fail to appear.

vasch_ro

NUTLEY BOY wrote:

I think that it is lousy of the gardai to prosecute you for this. I think that you have been most unlucky. Any one of us could make a similarly simple mistake. Lets hope the garda has something better to do and does not turn up.

If you get a bum decision you can always appeal to the Circuit Court where it is also not unknown for Gardai to fail to appear.

its their job to enforce the law , if u have a problem with the law as it stands get in touch with your TD, if the Garda does not turn up , he/she will be discipilined and most likely encur a hefty fine for him/herself.

The rules of the road are there for the safety of every one .

Victor

NUTLEY BOY wrote:

A general principle of criminal law is that a defendant cannot be guilty of an offence if they had no intention of doing the act. However, road traffic offences seem to fall into a special catergory where that nicety does not seem to apply. They seem to go on the basis that proof of commission of the wrongful act raises a presumption of guilt.

Based on the old misdemeanor / felony concept (now effectively offence / crime), the courts have no problem convicting people somewhere between "beyond reasonable doubt" and "on the balance of porbabilities". Prosecutions for offences are easy to get.

Also "intent" is a word you have to use carefully. A shop lifter or some one who commits manslaughter may have no intent, but do have criminal responsibility.

mcguiver

if the Garda does not turn up , he/she will be discipilined and most likely encur a hefty fine for him/herself. --dont think so!

If the case falls on the Garda's time off they don't get paid to attend.... which can mean they spend half the day hanging around the court....., therefore you can get one who wont turn up, or worse still..one thats very p***ed off that they are there in the first place.