Mc Cartney prime time

Villain

Earthman wrote:

Actually Is it even possible to know for a fact that he was ever in the IRA based on that logic given that he has changed his position on membership.
It would be a logical stand point to doubt his word at being in the IRA at any point as much as it is to doubt that he's not in it, if one doesnt trust him for lying about it.

But surely if someone is going to accuse another person they should able to provide evidence rather than just say "well you lied about it before"??

Earthman wrote:

I'd be reluctant to do that as we were circling the wagons in it.
But if you want a new thread on the topic I'll happily move all this there.

Meanwhile any further off topic stuff in this thread will go to the recycle bin and thats an order!

I don't see the point in opening a new thread so how about you re-open the old one

shltter

Earthman wrote:

Depending on the degree of badness,I doubt that he could.I'd be pretty certain though that most decent people would be of the view that you couldnt get much worse than the apples we're talking about here ie murderers

the "apples" may be of the worse kind but plenty of organisations have ended up with murderers in their ranks

Earthman wrote:

Alledgedly? They did offer to shoot them, they're on record as saying so.

I said alledgedly because mycroft seemed to be suggesting that they did not actually offer to kill them .(infact i tought it was the purpose of the thread). I didn't see the program so but it was my understanding that they had offered to kill them as well.

Earthman wrote:

There is the argument that once you open the pandora's box of violence and training violence and give these people their platform, then those that opened the box must take responsibility for the mistake of opening the box.

I accept that the IRA trained them but it was not with the intention that they use that training to kill some poor fellow in a row in a pub
I mean should we hold the irish army responsible for that guy that killed the girl up in the dublin mountains

Earthman wrote:

Well this is a lesson really and ultimately,hopefully eventually the standing down/disbandment of the IRA.
But in the meantime,they should be made pariah's untill they turn them selves in and admit what they did.According to the sisters that is not happening.

yes hopefully that will eventually happen

Earthman wrote:

I see...so we should all take up violence to get what we want when the ballot box doesnt immediately deliver it,I dont think thats what you want is it?
Given where we are now the IRA (using the common reasoning for their existance of protecting nationalists) could have stood down a long time before they did and saved a lot of lives in the process and leave the resolution to democracy.

I dont accept that either if the IRA had stood down along time ago then all that would have happened would be that the RIRA would have been a lot bigger and had much more support . The conditions had to be created for the IRA to stand down hopefully we are nearly there now

Earthman wrote:

I refer you to the pandora's box I mentioned above ie no IRA in 2005=no difficultywith the surrender vibes in dealing with the crime.

wether the IRA existed in 2005 or not the chances that people will still be murdered in pubs or outside them and that thugs will intimidate witnesses

Earthman wrote:

It's not unreasonable to assume that those that did the clean up being trained IRA members would have the knack of evidence hoovering.

yes that is not unreasonable and it is what i suggested that the people involved cleaned up and destroyed evidence what MT suggested was that
the IRA sent in some specialists to do this and there is no evidence to back that up

Earthman wrote:

And thats a justification for what exactly, do you agree with everything the British Army does? I doubt you do.

No I dont. MT asked what kind of organisation does not rid it self of these kind of people I was giving an example of the kind of organisation the British army
I did not suggest it was right just showing that the provos are not alone in harbouring scumbags

Earthman wrote:

They would or should be able to paint the picture of who was argue-ing though.
Not strictly the case.

there is no problem Identifying the people who were arguing there names have been printed in newspapers but saying X,Y and Z were arguing in the pub with Robert Mccartney does nothing to answer the question who assualted him outside the pub unless a witness saw the fatal assault the evidence of what they saw in side the pub is pretty useless remembering that there was about a dozen people involved

shltter

shltter wrote:

the "apples" may be of the worse kind but plenty of organisations have ended up with murderers in their ranks

How many of these plenty that you mention make illegal killing their purpose though?

I accept that the IRA trained them but it was not with the intention that they use that training to kill some poor fellow in a row in a pub
I mean should we hold the irish army responsible for that guy that killed the girl up in the dublin mountains

If you could establish that he used his training as a member of the Irish army to carry out the crime and of course to avoid the law and its punishment for the crime-thats not the case is it? The pandora's box is still open.

I dont accept that either if the IRA had stood down along time ago then all that would have happened would be that the RIRA would have been a lot bigger and had much more support . The conditions had to be created for the IRA to stand down hopefully we are nearly there now

How would RIRA have had the support you think it would? Theres no evidence to back that up.Given the RIRA and CIRA mindset that allowed the Omagh bombing,I'd reckon that they would have had miniscule to no support if the current strategy by SF and the IRA was played out years earlier.

wether the IRA existed in 2005 or not the chances that people will still be murdered in pubs or outside them and that thugs will intimidate witnesses

perhaps, but they wouldnt be IRA people damaging the IRA and anyone associated with it.They would most likely be getting the law a lot quicker as there'd be no organisation there to be worried about an on going controversy damaging its street cred and that of those associated with it, in their view.

yes that is not unreasonable and it is what i suggested that the people involved cleaned up and destroyed evidence what MT suggested was that
the IRA sent in some specialists to do this and there is no evidence to back that up

Its a variant way of saying the same thing really to be honest.

there is no problem Identifying the people who were arguing there names have been printed in newspapers but saying X,Y and Z were arguing in the pub with Robert Mccartney does nothing to answer the question who assualted him outside the pub unless a witness saw the fatal assault the evidence of what they saw in side the pub is pretty useless remembering that there was about a dozen people involved

From seeing the programme, the reconstruction of what went on in the pub was based on RTÉ information from unnamed witnesses in the pub.
The reconstruction suggested that it was clear who left the pub and that they were the peole giving it loads to McCartney and Devine.

shltter

Earthman wrote:

How many of these plenty that you mention make illegal killing their purpose though?

well obviously the IRA would not consider their killing illegal as they believed themselves to be involved in a war

Earthman wrote:

If you could establish that he used his training as a member of the Irish army to carry out the crime and of course to avoid the law and its punishment for the crime-thats not the case is it? The pandora's box is still open.

the pandoras box would be to open him to a culture of violence and train him how to kill people and as such make killing someone more acceptable

Earthman wrote:

How would RIRA have had the support you think it would? Theres no evidence to back that up.Given the RIRA and CIRA mindset that allowed the Omagh bombing,I'd reckon that they would have had miniscule to no support if the current strategy by SF and the IRA was played out years earlier.

because if the PIRA had just packed it in then teh people who supported the PIRA would just have shifted their allegiance to the RIRA or CIRA why that did not happen was because Adams and co had spent years and years creating a political alternative so that people could see that their was an alternative to armed struggle

Earthman wrote:

perhaps, but they wouldnt be IRA people damaging the IRA and anyone associated with it.They would most likely be getting the law a lot quicker as there'd be no organisation there to be worried about an on going controversy damaging its street cred and that of those associated with it, in their view.

obviously not if the IRA did not exist but if anyone thinks that street brawling and murder will disappear with the IRA they are in for a big disapointment

Earthman wrote:

Its a variant way of saying the same thing really to be honest.

no it is very different what MT alledged was that the IRA had sent in specialists to clean up after the killers of robert Mccartney that is not what happened the people who killed robert mccartney used what ever knowledge they had to destroy evidence and as I said before the bar was not secured nor was the street scene and bar staff cleaned the pub that night

Earthman wrote:

From seeing the programme, the reconstruction of what went on in the pub was based on RTÉ information from unnamed witnesses in the pub.
The reconstruction suggested that it was clear who left the pub and that
they were the peole giving it loads to McCartney and Devine.

giving it loads as you put it is not the same thing as having a witness that saw X Y or Z stabbing Mccartney and Devine
any defence barrister would quickly dismantle a case based on what happened in the bar as the fatal assault took place in the street
As i said i did not see the program but at best if mccartney and devine were assaulted in the bar the only conviction a witness in the bar could help secure is an assault conviction

shltter

shltter wrote:

well obviously the IRA would not consider their killing illegal as they believed themselves to be involved in a war

That would be irrelevant in the case of the McCartney killing though as to even just use the definition of their green book and according to their laws the killers were acting "illegally".

the pandoras box would be to open him to a culture of violence and train him how to kill people and as such make killing someone more acceptable

Thats sounding awfully like what Alex Maskey initially said about this murder, If you dont mind me saying.
Besides, the pandora's box that contained these killers also contained the training for them and the wherewithall to do an after the fact forensic clean up-Thats not something usually associated with run of the mill murders.

because if the PIRA had just packed it in then teh people who supported the PIRA would just have shifted their allegiance to the RIRA or CIRA why that did not happen was because Adams and co had spent years and years creating a political alternative so that people could see that their was an alternative to armed struggle

With respect Adams should have got his IRA ceasefire long before he did and lives would have been saved, there was no material difference between 1990 and 1994 and many would say years earlier than that.

obviously not if the IRA did not exist but if anyone thinks that street brawling and murder will disappear with the IRA they are in for a big disapointment

Thats not the point here, see the point above and the earlier points about there not being any tangible reason to cover up a murder in a pr damage limitation exercise.

no it is very different what MT alledged was that the IRA had sent in specialists to clean up after the killers of robert Mccartney that is not what happened the people who killed robert mccartney used what ever knowledge they had to destroy evidence and as I said before the bar was not secured nor was the street scene and bar staff cleaned the pub that night

Lets make no mistake about it, if as alledged senior Belfast IRA figures were involved in this murder, then they would be experts at such a clean up as well, they would have had plenty of experience.
If you are referring to the separation of the IRA and the members of the IRA and that the heads of the organisation did not sanction this operation,I'd have to put it to you that it is not unreasonable for someone to say a leading figure of the IRA in Belfast at the time of the murder is the IRA ergo they act for the IRA untill the IRA say otherwise. Thats what went on down in Adare anyway.
This for instance, if McCartney had not died from it would have been marked down probably as another punishment beating.The soundings coming out around Devine point in that direction.

giving it loads as you put it is not the same thing as having a witness that saw X Y or Z stabbing Mccartney and Devine
any defence barrister would quickly dismantle a case based on what happened in the bar as the fatal assault took place in the street
As i said i did not see the program but at best if mccartney and devine were assaulted in the bar the only conviction a witness in the bar could help secure is an assault conviction

I dont know what conviction that would have arose out of it.But I do know that if the IRA ceasefire had have happened years earlier, the pandora's box in this case might not have been open and the forensic clean up might not have happened,indeed neither might the murder.

shltter

Earthman wrote:

That would be irrelevant in the case of the McCartney killing though as to even just use the definition of their green book and according to their laws the killers were acting "illegally".

absolutely it was illegal under anyones laws

Earthman wrote:

Thats sounding awfully like what Alex Maskey initially said about this murder, If you dont mind me saying.
Besides, the pandora's box that contained these killers also contained the training for them and the wherewithall to do an after the fact forensic clean up-Thats not something usually associated with run of the mill murders.

i have no idea what alex maskey said said so for the moment i dont mind you saying

without going into details a recent murder in north county dublin seems to suggest that the murderer had knowledge of forensics as far as i know the main suspect did not have any connection wit h any organisation that could have tought him this knowledge
perhaps we should hold the discovery channel responsible

Earthman wrote:

With respect Adams should have got his IRA ceasefire long before he did and lives would have been saved, there was no material difference between 1990 and 1994 and many would say years earlier than that.

except the ground work had to be done to suggest adams could have achieved this earlier is conjecture

Earthman wrote:

Thats not the point here, see the point above and the earlier points about there not being any tangible reason to cover up a murder in a pr damage limitation exercise.

yes but thugs like these will always try to get away with what they did

Earthman wrote:

Lets make no mistake about it, if as alledged senior Belfast IRA figures were involved in this murder, then they would be experts at such a clean up as well, they would have had plenty of experience.

how do you know what their expertise is

and if they were already there then the IRA did not send them in as MT alleged

Earthman wrote:

If you are referring to the separation of the IRA and the members of the IRA and that the heads of the organisation did not sanction this operation,I'd have to put it to you that it is not unreasonable for someone to say a leading figure of the IRA in Belfast at the time of the murder is the IRA ergo they act for the IRA untill the IRA say otherwise. Thats what went on down in Adare anyway.
This for instance, if McCartney had not died from it would have been marked down probably as another punishment beating.The soundings coming out around Devine point in that direction.

there is a huge difference between a planned operation on behalf of the IRA such as the attempted robbery in Adare and a pub brawl which ended in murder
yes they would still be the IRA in matters that involve the IRA however killing people in a pub brawl is not IRA business

I have not heard any suggestion that devine recieved a punishment beating People have pointed out his history in an effort to dispel the myth that devine was some kind of innocent abroad unused to violence and violent behaviour

Earthman wrote:

I dont know what conviction that would have arose out of it.But I do know that if the IRA ceasefire had have happened years earlier, the pandora's box in this case might not have been open and the forensic clean up might not have happened,indeed neither might the murder.

I dont think that there is any evidence to support that and it has nothing to do with my point that witnesses in the pub wether intimidated or not are useless to try and convict someone for an incident that happened outside of their view

shltter

shltter wrote:

without going into details a recent murder in north county dublin seems to suggest that the murderer had knowledge of forensics as far as i know the main suspect did not have any connection wit h any organisation that could have tought him this knowledge
perhaps we should hold the discovery channel responsible

I think you should go into details.

except the ground work had to be done to suggest adams could have achieved this earlier is conjecture

Why is that conjecture, what material fact is different about the lives of nationalists in NI in 1990 and 1994 that merited IRA bombing and shooting in the interim?

yes but thugs like these will always try to get away with what they did

I dont doubt that thugs want to get away with their thuggery, that much is obvious.

how do you know what their expertise is

Well the lack of forensic evidence in and around mcginesis bar suggests a lot of expertise.

and if they were already there then the IRA did not send them in as MT alleged

That would presuppose that a leading commander in the Belfast IRA brigade wouldnt be seen as being the IRA untill he was expelled.
That presuposition wouldnt wash with a lot of people.But I take your point if you are saying that you believe or would believe different, thats your own perogative.

there is a huge difference between a planned operation on behalf of the IRA such as the attempted robbery in Adare and a pub brawl which ended in murder
yes they would still be the IRA in matters that involve the IRA however killing people in a pub brawl is not IRA business
I have not heard any suggestion that devine recieved a punishment beating People have pointed out his history in an effort to dispel the myth that devine was some kind of innocent abroad unused to violence and violent behaviour

Which I'm saying could just as easily have been used to say that both were at the receiving end of a punishment beating if McCartney had lived.
And before you say it, yes that is conjecture

I dont think that there is any evidence to support that and it has nothing to do with my point that witnesses in the pub wether intimidated or not are useless to try and convict someone for an incident that happened outside of their view

Well it is obvious as I posited earlier that if the IRA had been stood down several years earlier and this incident had still have happened, then there would have been no IRA honour to defend here and a more cut and shut situation for the locals to deal with.

shltter

Earthman wrote:

I think you should go into details.

no one has been charged with the murder but the gardai ay there was a derth of forensic evidence
and the media have reported that they suspect that the murderer attacked teh victim in the nude had a shower cleaned up the scene and took a route to the house to avoid cameras etc

Earthman wrote:

Why is that conjecture, what material fact is different about the lives of nationalists in NI in 1990 and 1994 that merited IRA bombing and shooting in the interim?

the material fact is that adams and co were trying to ensure that there would be no split in the IRA or to keep the split as small as possible so that an armed campaign could not continue after the main IRA had stopped and tehy have been largely successful in that

Earthman wrote:

I dont doubt that thugs want to get away with their thuggery, that much is obvious.

yes

Earthman wrote:

Well the lack of forensic evidence in and around mcginesis bar suggests a lot of expertise.

or incompetence in the PSNI

Earthman wrote:

That would presuppose that a leading commander in the Belfast IRA brigade wouldnt be seen as being the IRA untill he was expelled.
That presuposition wouldnt wash with a lot of people.But I take your point if you are saying that you believe or would believe different, thats your own perogative.

what is your point of course he is A part of the IRA untill he is expelled however that does not mean everything he does is on behalf of or sanctioned by the IRA
I doubt that when he joined the IRA they told him it would be ok to kill people in bars or indeed outside them

Earthman wrote:

Which I'm saying could just as easily have been used to say that both were at the receiving end of a punishment beating if McCartney had lived.
And before you say it, yes that is conjecture

yes it is

Earthman wrote:

Well it is obvious as I posited earlier that if the IRA had been stood down several years earlier and this incident had still have happened, then there would have been no IRA honour to defend here and a more cut and shut situation for the locals to deal with.

I dont think people are being silenced to defend the IRAs honour if indeed they are being silenced it is to protect the culprits from the law and could and does happen with or without the IRA

Villain

I see Congressman Peter King has upset the government by saying that the murder of Mr Mccartney was the sort of "pub dispute that could have happened in any city in the US"

He also said "there is no evidence it was sanctioned by the IRA" and that "we shouldn't rush to be too sanctimonious" abouts it's impact.

shltter

shltter wrote:

no one has been charged with the murder but the gardai ay there was a derth of forensic evidence
and the media have reported that they suspect that the murderer attacked teh victim in the nude had a shower cleaned up the scene and took a route to the house to avoid cameras etc

I wouldnt be surprised if clever criminals are capable of such things as opposed to stupid criminals(the ones you see on crimewatch with their unmasked mugs on camera) Theres no doubt in the world though that those involved in this would have received IRA training and certainly that pandora's box trained a lot of people(by experience on operations at least) to do a lot of savoury things.

the material fact is that adams and co were trying to ensure that there would be no split in the IRA or to keep the split as small as possible so that an armed campaign could not continue after the main IRA had stopped and tehy have been largely successful in that

You are giving me something about what was happening within the IRA, when I was asking you what material fact was different for nationalists in NI in 1990 and 1994 to keep them bombing and shooting in the interim? This is going off topic but if you wish to continue,I'll split and move it elsewhere.

or incompetence in the PSNI

Thats not what the sisters say or indeed the programme said based on witnesses the programme claimed to base the reconstruction on.

what is your point of course he is A part of the IRA untill he is expelled however that does not mean everything he does is on behalf of or sanctioned by the IRA

I see so you are of the view that a senior commander of an IRA Belfast brigade wouldnt be seen as the IRA in the locality, thats your view of course, others would disagree with you.

I doubt that when he joined the IRA they told him it would be ok to kill people in bars or indeed outside them

The IRA have never shot anyone in a bar, or outside it or blew them up or killed several people in or about a bar before??

I dont think people are being silenced to defend the IRAs honour if indeed they are being silenced it is to protect the culprits from the law and could and does happen with or without the IRA

On that note and at this stage in the McCartney saga,I'm inclined to agree with you as regards whats going on now.The message has got through I think that allowing this to fester on is not good.
The complication is probably delivering the action required on the ground to put that message into action.The problem could be stubborness possibly, but again thats only conjecture.

shltter

Earthman wrote:

I wouldnt be surprised if clever criminals are capable of such things as opposed to stupid criminals(the ones you see on crimewatch with their unmasked mugs on camera) Theres no doubt in the world though that those involved in this would have received IRA training and certainly that pandora's box trained a lot of people(by experience on operations at least) to do a lot of savoury things.
.

undoubtedly but they did not train them so they could use that knowledge to kill people during a brawl and cover their tracks

Earthman wrote:

You are giving me something about what was happening within the IRA, when I was asking you what material fact was different for nationalists in NI in 1990 and 1994 to keep them bombing and shooting in the interim? This is going off topic but if you wish to continue,I'll split and move it elsewhere
.

.

no i dont want to open a new topic i was merely giving my opinion as to why the ceasefire did not happen earlier

Earthman wrote:

Thats not what the sisters say or indeed the programme said based on witnesses the programme claimed to base the reconstruction on.
.

I'am sure the sisters do not want to get into a slanging match with the PSNI or do anything to remove the heat from the people it should be on the perpatrators
however it is a fact that the PSNI did not seal the scene in the bar or the street

Earthman wrote:

I see so you are of the view that a senior commander of an IRA Belfast brigade wouldnt be seen as the IRA in the locality, thats your view of course, others would disagree with you.
.

of course he would be seen as the IRA but that does not mean that every action he takes is seen as an IRA action

Earthman wrote:

The IRA have never shot anyone in a bar, or outside it or blew them up or killed several people in or about a bar before??
.

not to my knowledge because they had had a row with someone in the bar because they believed the person had insulted an IRA mans wife

.

Cork

irish1 wrote:

I see Congressman Peter King has upset the government by saying that the murder of Mr Mccartney was the sort of "pub dispute that could have happened in any city in the US"

The brutal murder and subsequent cover up and intimidation were a disgrace.

This incident has been more upsetting to the McCartney family who are now being threatened by certain quarters.

They now deserve justice. If the intimidation continues - they won't get it.

jman0

Cork wrote:

The brutal murder and subsequent cover up and intimidation were a disgrace.
This incident has been more upsetting to the McCartney family who are now being threatened by certain quarters.
They now deserve justice. If the intimidation continues - they won't get it.

But the thing is, the McCartneys have defined the sort of "justice" they seek: RUC/PSNI -> Court.
And unfortunately that isn't the path of "justice" people are very familiar or comfortable with.
They also join a long list of people still hoping http://62.253.251.16/dailyireland/home.tvt?_ticket=22HDALOLO9M2TRRIVXP9ANWPOIA9CHVTWRRKITQABWYGCLKACK3AC4QFIR0BARXDALOL64EFURUSHONGEMTEGUKACK3AF1ESXC&_scope=DailyIreland/Content/Comment&id=4410&opp=1.
Maybe the McCartney's get bumped to the top of the queue for political reasons. But there are other faces of "Justice" and apparently they were already offered one.

oscarBravo

jman0 wrote:

But the thing is, the McCartneys have defined the sort of "justice" they seek: RUC/PSNI -> Court.
And unfortunately that isn't the path of "justice" people are very familiar or comfortable with.

It takes a very special type of mindset, all too common in this country, to describe the progression from police to court as "justice". Most civilised people simply call it justice.

But there are other faces of "Justice" and apparently they were already offered one.

See, there's a context where the quotes are justified.

Just a little heads-up for you: the RUC doesn't exist anymore. I know it'll probably take a while for that to sink in; after all, the demise of the Free State doesn't seem to have made an impression yet.

jman0

oscarBravo wrote:

Just a little heads-up for you: the RUC doesn't exist anymore.

How wrong you are oscarBravo
http://www.ruc.police.uk <follow link

Rock Climber

Maybe its because unionists don't know about pages like these

Leaving a redirect on an old organisations site to the new organisation does not an old orgaisation make.

jman0

Rock Climber wrote:

Maybe its because unionists don't know about pages like these

Leaving a redirect on an old organisations site to the new organisation does not an old orgaisation make.

It does actually.
It's very symbolic.
What it means, is that the RUC is another name for the PSNI

jman0

jman0 wrote:

It does actually.
It's very symbolic.
What it means, is that the RUC is another name for the PSNI

While this is a lovely aside,its not the topic so could we get back to the topic please.

mycroft

irish1 wrote:

Easy now mycroft, I'm being civil here you could at least do the same.

You don't know if he is lying now do you? Do you know for a fact Gerry Adams is currently a member of the IRA??

If you object to the tone or content of one of my posts please report it to the mods, your preferred method of rebuttal.

As stated before the standard of proof when somebody has previously lied about this exact matter, and can offer nothing more than his word on the matter now, and gains by continuing this pretense, can be viewed with more than a little suspicion.

By your own admission Adams can offer nothing more than his word as evidence that he isn't in the IRA, and his word on this very matter is dubious.

He has not being arrested with membership, I have seen no factual evidence to prove he is currently a member and I believe what he says, so why would I accept he is a member?. IMO if people make an accusation they should be able to prove it, in this case there is no proof just opinion.

The standard of proof in this instance should lie on the person who has proven to have lied about his membership status with this group.

As stated you have nothing but Adam's word to go on to show us that he is no longer a member.

And as proof to why Adams has not been arrested I give you what another one of your apologists said

the material fact is that adams and co were trying to ensure that there would be no split in the IRA or to keep the split as small as possible so that an armed campaign could not continue after the main IRA had stopped and tehy have been largely successful in that

Adams is more valuable to the peace process, the sheer naviety of this pov is blinding, there are a number of criminals and IRA men walking the streets who should be in prison but stay free because they're more valuable to society at large keeping their band of psychopaths in check.

MT

irish1 wrote:

I see Congressman Peter King has upset the government by saying that the murder of Mr Mccartney was the sort of "pub dispute that could have happened in any city in the US"

He also said "there is no evidence it was sanctioned by the IRA" and that "we shouldn't rush to be too sanctimonious" abouts it's impact.

Friends of Sinn Féin must be exerting pressure.

MT

irish1 wrote:

Oh no please do "cover" it, I'd be very interested to know what disgusting behaviour your referring to.

My, my, the selective amnesia strikes again. Let’s see. To begin with, the party and Alex Maskey played the entire thing down hoping that it would all blow over. They entirely abdicated their responsibility in one of their fiefdoms to see that murderous thugs were brought to justice. Then when the focus did fall on Sinn Fein did they attempt to make amends by encouraging co-operation with the police? Oh no. Instead, they instructed witnesses to speak to a lawyer or a priest knowing full well this would be of little help to the investigation. Then, it turns out a number of prospective SF electoral candidates had been in the bar and despite many weeks having passed still hadn’t provided an account of what took place to the relevant authorities.

At this stage any party with even a shred of decency or concern for the family would have reprimanded these party hopefuls for their wanton disregard for the relatives plight, but did SF. Of course not. And of course their contempt for the sisters was further demonstrated with Marty ‘peace and justice’ McGuinness’s threat over the sisters courageous campaign to do right by their brother. To top it all, when the family has a chance of gaining substantial compensation through a civil suit, Sinn Fein refused to back the motion in the European Parliament providing funding for the case.

Throw in the whispering campaign against the sisters – even the apologists on this board know full well who started that – and the cunningly bemused queries by several republicans with regards funding for the McCartney sisters, ie. them traitors is in the pay a the Brit bastards, and other smears about their brother’s and their own characters and the movement had mounted a full on hatchet job. And had this took place in the mid 90’s, that hatchet job would have been a lot more literal.

Furthermore, not only did Sinn Fein attempt to thwart the investigation by ‘discouraging’ witness statements, they then tried to undermine the credibility of the investigating officers in the minds of those in the community by spreading wild conspiracy theories about deliberate police inactivity. Clever tactic, I’ll admit. Just when some witness may have overcome their fear of the local ‘peace and justice campaigners’ and decided to aid the inquiry it never hurts to sprinkle a few seeds of doubt. ‘Remember, we’re the real victims here, this is all an evil PSNI conspiracy to damage our struggle for human rights.’ ‘Oh, and that McCartney fúcker was asking for it, sure he had the cheek to make gestures at the TV.’ Heaven knows, given the ‘Ra boys concern for gestures at the TV the BBC will soon be employing their services as licence inspectors.

Finally, there’s the little matter of Sinn Fein being the political wing of the IRA. Whatever the latter gets up to is no doubt agreed, covered up, aided, etc. by the entire organisation.

In total, Sinn Fein’s behaviour in this squalid affair has been nothing short of disgusting. In many ways, all the more so as they hypocritically claim to care for the human rights of those in the very communities they subject to this type of jackboot thugery. They were seen for what they are by the MEPs in the European parliament and similarly those of us not taken in by their mawkish and dishonest howls of victimhood see them for the slithering monsters they really are. The words of Sean O’Casey still ring true today, ‘no one can suffer enough for the republican project, least of all the innocent.’

jman0

So, to paraphrase MT's post:
He believes SF are like really, really, really bad.
But still believes they can click their heels together 3 times and make all this bad stuff disappear. Or something.

MT

That response would suggest you haven't even bothered to read my post. The 'or something' at the end confirms it.

However, like many others, I do believe SF are 'really, really, really bad. Indeed, they're probably beyond that. What else can you say about an organisation that facilitates brutality, murder and all round tyranny. Someone would need to be devoid of a sense of right and wrong to think anything else.

Villain

MT wrote:

What else can you say about an organisation that facilitates brutality, murder and all round tyranny. Someone would need to be devoid of a sense of right and wrong to think anything else.

I can assure you there is nothing wrong with my sense of right and wrong and I think you would better off avoiding such remarks about posters as the mods here have banned users for simalar comments.

P.S. I haven't got a chance to read your last post yet, but will do in time.

MT

shltter wrote:

So can you name any organisation that does not have any bad apples

I dont think the IRA has taken the atitude that this is no biggy they alledgedly offered to shoot the individuals

Well I’d have no difficulty in describing the entire organisation as a lot worse than bad apples. However, relative to their gutter based sense of morality, these vile thugs found a new low. I guess they’d reached sewer level. It’s true that other organisations – funnily enough most I can think of haven’t committed mass murder – have their undesirable characters. But few of these turn out to be psychopathic murderers. I mean the ‘deviants’ in other organisations would come across as relative saints in comparison to these monsters. And, by the way, before apologists get into further quibbling arguments that attempt to draw equivalence with the civilised world, slicing a man from navel to neck and stamping on his head until it collapsed is incomparably barbaric. So don’t try and play this off as some minor hullabaloo that’s commonplace everywhere.

Oh, but the IRA takes exactly the view that this was no biggy. From their warped perspective, had this innocent father had the sense to be forgotten like all the other victims of late night murder and beatings they’ve perpetrated, he and his ‘traitorous’ sisters would have been confined to the nameless statistics of punishment beatings gone wrong. Given their past disregard for innocent life it’s entirely reasonable to believe the IRA cared not a jot for justice in this case. What prompted their remarkably delayed anguish for the plight of this murdered man’s family was political damage to the Sinn Fein wing brought on by a media spotlight, or unionist press bias if you occupy the provo parallel universe. I mean can apologists explain how an organisation that still refuses to reveal the whereabouts to their tortured families of various victims they ‘disappeared’ suddenly went through a human rights road to Damascus conversion and developed a sense of compassion for the lives they’ve trashed. I doubt it. And in this vein, their offer to shoot the ‘perpetrators’ – or judgement of Solomon style wisdom as apologists seem to be playing it – was nothing but strategic. I wouldn’t be surprised if the army council had picked the three least able volunteers and planned to execute them in private leaving the much more violent psychopaths for future use. If any republican every again whinges about the SCC let this offer of summary execution be a testament to their glaring hypocrisy.

Then there’s the whole underhand move to implicate the sisters in murder. ‘Look,’ they’d be able to cry to the world, ‘we have support for our violent slayings.’ Wouldn’t be long before they’d be declaring a mandate.

shltter wrote:

there was no IRA involvement there was the involvement of IRA members which is a completely different thing

how would you suggest that the IRA remove these people from a position of threat to the public

Of course there was IRA involvement. A high ranking member of the organisation was involved, their specialists would have been dispatched to remove forensic evidence and in the aftermath the Short strand wing carried out systematic witness intimidation. Furthermore, the IRA bares the full responsibility for training and sheltering these psychopathic maniacs. Apparently, at least one of them had committed previous acts of savagery of a similar debased nature and yet remain in the ‘Ra’s employ. I guess homicidal lunatics are too useful to let go of in a terrorist organisation.

As for removing their threat, well, stripping them of IRA membership would have gone someway towards removing their belief that they could act with impunity sheltered by a powerful tyranny. Or they could have supplied their membership details to the police and put them where they belong – a prison cell, preferably with a hairy transvestite. Failing that, splitting them up could well have worked. Wolves hunt in packs and these cowards might well have been a lot less fearless had they been denied a group to gang up with and outnumber their pray.

Having said all this the simplest preventative measure would have involved the IRA leaving the stage in its entirety ten years ago.

shltter wrote:

but if the brits had just left then the IRA could have disbanded years ago

besides which they did not use any IRA weapons unless your suggesting that the IRA is responsible for sewer rods and kitchen knives
and as for a training and culture of violence people manage to stab and kill other people all the time with out any paramilitary involvement

It was the IRA that was caught with its trousers down on this occasion so lets focus the blame where it belongs and not indulge in whataboutery. How would people feel if a British soldier murdered someone in the North tomorrow and Tony Blair dismissed the incident with the claim that had the IRA disbanded years ago there would have been no army presence? Such logic gets no one anywhere.

And what about the majority in the North that consider themselves Brits? Should they leave too, is that what it will take to end IRA violence?

They may not have used IRA weapons but that’s who trained them and brainwashed them into a culture of violence and who retained them as volunteers. Was the rope used by Lindy England to drag an Iraqi prisoner across the floor supplied by the US army?

As for people stabbing and killing all the time, this sounds like another episode from life in the provo parallel universe. But of course, the paramilitaries contribute nothing to the violence that’s common place across NI. I mean punishment beatings, intimidation and threats – it’d all happen anyway had the loyalist and republican gangsters never existed. As excuses go, that’s poor.

shltter wrote:

what specialists were sent in the IRA crime scene cleaners for gods sake talk about building your arguement up

the people involved in the murder did a clean up and on top of that the PSNI did not preserve the scene and the bar staff cleaned the bar that night

Of course specialists were called upon. This slaying involved a senior IRA man and the organisation has a long history of leaving nothing chance to safeguard key volunteers from prosecution. As for the PSNI not preserving the scene and bar staff mopping up blood, that’s nothing more than the airbrushed version of history parroted by SF propagandists and Pravda… sorry, Daily Ireland.

shltter wrote:

well apart from the fact that your going on nothing substantiated can you provide any links oe evidence to back up the claim

And this compares unfavourably with the fabricated version of history disseminated by the Republican Movement. What is it with apologists and double standards? Well, if you look around the web you’ll find plenty of background on the delightful characters involved in this slaying. It seems one finished a disagreement by, er, throwing someone off a balcony. Then there was the time he kicked a pregnant woman in the stomach. And I’m sure theirs plenty more. Do you think they were angels that went bad having just had too much to drink? Which is more likely, an IRA filled with violent thugs or normal, compassionate human beings?

shltter wrote:

the British army has a history for example of readmitting people convicted of very serious charges including murder upon their release from prison

And that makes it okay for the IRA to do likewise? Two wrongs make a right? That is on a par with the very worst type of whataboutery prevalent in the North. Shocking.

shltter wrote:

first we know that upto a dozen people were involved could they intimidate 50 people of course they could

Are you kidding? Do you really believe that the intimidation stopped at just the 50 that were in the bar? Setting aside that the dozen ‘freedom fighters’ would have in no way attempted such a feat without approval from further up the chain of tyranny… sorry, command the intimidation would have went much further. Anyone the 50 might have spoken to would have been threatened. Their friends, families and work colleagues would have experienced the pleasure of the good old community solidarity too. Why do you think nobody in the area came forward to stop the intimidation of the occupants of the pub that fateful night – because they were under the provo jackboot as well.

shltter wrote:

secondly the main problem is that there were not 50 witnesses or anything like that
the assault that killed robert mccartney took place outside the pub in the street
people in the pub saw the altercation a bottle and alledgedly devine produce a knife they did not see the assualt that killed mr mccartney so any evidence tehy can give would be pretty useless to a murder investigation

I’m sorry, but as far as insulting our intelligence goes… Don’t you think that at the very least the police would have been keen to ascertain the identity of the thugs involved? Oh, and that’s a cleverly one-sided insinuation there. Isn’t it interesting that republicans are always sketchy on the mindless violence perpetrated by the ‘peace and justice’ brigade that night and yet are never slow to impart factoids that besmirch the character of one of the victims. If I were a cynic I might suspect another republican smear campaign. Tell me, as you know so much about the weapon supposedly produced by Devine, what of the weapon(s) used by his attackers? Or are such minor details to be ignored?

shltter wrote:

what smears

Come now, here no evil, see no evil…

shltter wrote:

what disgusting behaviour

See my response to Irish1

MT

continued…

shltter wrote:

see you cant have it both ways criticisse the IRA for doing nothing and condemn them for offering to do the only real thing that they could do to their members involved

I have never attempted to have it both ways. Throughout the whole of this repulsive saga, I’ve only ever argued for the protection of human rights and maintenance of justice.

Firstly, as one of the most prolific violators of justice and rights on this island, the IRA shouldn’t even exist. I have never criticised the IRA for doing nothing – I want them to go further and disappear altogether. My criticism has been that the IRA has been doing the exact opposite of nothing. Their men, acting under their auspices murdered Robert McCartney, they covered up and destroyed evidence of the crime and they sustained a campaign of intimidation in the area to dissuade witnesses from aiding the investigation. They’ve done more than enough harm. Then, having stymied the police investigation by evidence tampering, witness intimidation, etc. they continued to show a knuckle headed ignorance of the judicial process by rounding up three of the ‘suspects’ with the intention of trying them secretly in a kangaroo court and issuing the death penalty. And I’m not for a moment convinced these were the real murderers, just less valuable scapegoats. After this debacle, lets hear no more outrage from republicans over the 80’s shoot to kill policy, the Diplock courts or the SCC. In this one act the movement revealed its true colours with regard to justice and rights.

All I’ve ever argued for is that the IRA go out of business. For it to stop murdering and beating innocent people, to stop masquerading as a community police force while in reality maintaining an oppressive and violent tyranny in the areas it controls. And at the same time lining their pockets with the money they can steal with impunity and bully out of the hands of the residents that fear them. Had this republican regime not been in place Robert McCartney would still be living and a much liked member of his community. Furthermore, having done the deed the IRA should have backed off leaving the investigation to the police. They certainly shouldn’t have tried to thwart it and then attempted to take over and dispense with the due process of justice involving actions that would have implicated the McCartney family in murder.

I’m simply opposed to the IRA tyranny facilitated by Sinn Fein. There’s been nothing inconsistent in my response to any of the developments in this sustained campaign of tyranny by the Republican Movement.

For that matter, it’s SF and the IRA that have tried to have it both ways. They can’t claim to be community defenders while butchering and savagely beating members of that community. They can’t be against police brutality while doing the lions share of the brutalising. They can’t be against no jury trials while operating secret kangaroo courts. They can’t claim to be for inquiries into, or compensation for, human rights abuses in the North while refusing to support EU aid that might see this happen. They can’t be for equality while applying one rule to IRA thugs that act with impunity and another to the hard pressed inhabitants of their fiefdoms. They can’t be for the rights of Irish women while thwarting justice for the McCartney sisters and excusing the torture and murder of Jean McConville as less than a crime. They can’t be for peace while their armed wing continues to terrorise innocent Catholics throughout the North.

It’s SF and the IRA that want it both ways.

shltter wrote:

people who join the IRA submit themselves to the justice system that operates with in the IRA .It obviously in no way would be a justice system that anyone would operate in a democratic society but the IRA cannot have an open court and a jury panel nor can it operate a prison to house people who have breeched its rules

You’ve encapsulated the flawed psychology of the movement in a nut shell. It is ‘in no way… a justice system’ that anyone would operate anywhere, full stop. I suggest that the ‘Ra’s closed militaristic society should bring itself to an end as soon as possible before another family has a much loved member murdered.

You seem to have a grasp of the problem, can you see the solution?

shltter wrote:

how do you want them to exercise the responsiblity they have for the now former members that committed this crime
examples please

End witness intimidation immediately.

Provide the police with any evidence taken from the bar.

Make a public declaration of support for the PSNI investigation, sending out a loud and clear signal to their prowling neanderthals.

Take on board the European parliament’s advice and cease all actions thwarting the investigation and peacefully – no kangaroo courts, understand – impress upon the suspects to give themselves in and confess.

Support the EU’s efforts to provide the sisters with funding for a civil case against the murderers. Indeed, they should apologise for not voting in favour of the proposal.

Failing either a criminal or civil prosecution, offer compensation to the McCartney family.

Call for an independent international inquiry into this abuse of human rights and the wider problem of abusive and unjust IRA community policing.

Call for an IRA community policing watchdog or ombudsman if you like.

Join the policing board and support the PSNI to ensure this abuse of policing power by the IRA never happens again.

shltter wrote:

I would imagine your self and compatriots on boards do not need an excuse to be hostile to republicans or the "cause" and if it was not robert mccartney it would be something else

There are plenty of excuses for the hostility. Foremost amongst these are abuse of human rights, oppression and criminality. And yes, if it wasn’t the murder of Robert McCartney, it would be something else as the republican movement’s up to its neck in tyranny and criminality. The violations of democracy and its attendant principles are legion.

jman0

MT while it's interesting and maybe progressive having (i presume) a DUP supporter posting on an irish message board, i think your monologues are just a wee bit OOT.
Perhaps you need reminding that the majorityof nationalists in NI support SF. Are you saying they are devoid of a sense of right and wrong?
When you denigrate that political party in such terms as you do, I believe you also denigrate the people that choose SF to represent them.

MT

irish1 wrote:

I can assure you there is nothing wrong with my sense of right and wrong and I think you would better off avoiding such remarks about posters as the mods here have banned users for simalar comments.

Before you start delivering threats, you might care to read what I've written again. Where have I mentioned you personally or your sense of right and wrong?

As for your attempt to assume the authority of a moderator and threaten me on their behalf, I imagine that's behaviour they would take issue with. So, examine your own posts before imparting advice to others.

irish1 wrote:

P.S. I haven't got a chance to read your last post yet, but will do in time.

It seems you didn't read the one you commented on either.

Villain

MT wrote:

Before you start delivering threats, you might care to read what I've written again. Where have I mentioned you personally or your sense of right and wrong?

As for your attempt to assume the authority of a moderator and threaten me on their behalf, I imagine that's behaviour they would take issue with. So, examine your own posts before imparting advice to others.



It seems you didn't read the one you commented on either.

I was just giving some friendly advice, not threating anyone or trying to mod in anyway.

jman0

It's no biggie irish1 if you haven't read all MT's post.
Just take a glance at how long it is and you can be sure it's a hate-filled anti-SF rant of the most Paisely-ite variety.