Is the EU Constitution now dead?

capistrano

Earthman wrote:

I'd like to know why they went for the controversial title of constitution in the first place.

And if it was just another treaty (Treaty of Dublin?) then countries that aren't obliged to hold a referendum - such as France, the Netherlands and the UK - probably would have just ratified it in parliament.

Sangre

I'm not even sure if Ireland would have had to have had a referendum based on the Maher v An Toiseach case...but at this stage its probably more political necessecity than a judicial or constitutuinal one.

bringitdown

Slightly OT: Can anyone point me to wheres I can get a soft and/or hard copy of it?

Sangre

www.europa.eu.int should have it somewhere.

mike65

Just over at indymedia (forgive me father for I have sinned) and having read Comrade Roger Coles contribution I suddenly want to vote YES.

The decision of the French people to vote NO and the very strong chance that the Dutch will vote NO as well are major victories in the struggle for democracy and major defeats for neo-liberal warmongering Imperialists...yadda yadda yadda

Mike.

Sand

I dont know how to feel about the rejection of the "constitution". Effectively it just amalgamated the treaties, that are still in force anyway so no loss really. If anything I wouldnt be happy to see a joint EU foreign policy/ President at a time when advocates seem to be stressing a united Europe as some sort of adversary for the US. The US arent our enemies and if the EU is being fashioned as some weapon against them then I'm not interested. And anything that can conceivably even begin to weaken the ability of states to resist tax harmonisation cant be in our interests.

The good news is that the French No should be the final nail in the coffin of a French leadership role in the EU. Their political body just has too many domestic issues and problems to be able to confidently lead - their population is variously voting for ultra-nationalist xenophobes like Le Pen, warmed over Stalinism, or tepid centrist parties who lack the courage and conviction to actually lead France out of the economic and social mess that its in, preferring instead to bash Brussels and compete with each other to see who can be most anti-american. With double digit unemployment, ultra-militant unions and stale growth its not in a position to hand out economic advice to anyone. Its authority was also undermined when it changed the fiscal stability rules underpinning the Euro to suit itself. Any sensible economic reform is painted as anglo-saxon neo liberalism. I guess it will take another couple decades before they get over themselves and realise the earth doesnt rotate about Paris.

And whilst its social services are supposed to make the above worth it, they presided over what is probably the most shocking case of child abuse in recent memory - where an entire community of families abused and sold their children for sex under the nose of the social workers assigned - along with the case whereby crap security and staffing levels meant a French nurse was decapitated by a patient in an mental health hospital and wasnt located until after a massive search. Doesnt sound all that enviable to me.

The xenophobic/protectionist fear of competition from new members in the East means France is on a collision course with the new member states, and indeed Euro skeptic nations like the UK. The new member states have no love for France to begin with after Chiracs diplomacy a few years back, but its in their economic interests to get their neighbours into the EU. And lets face it, this constitution was a French idea, designed by a Frenchman and Chirac was so confident hed have it passed he called an unrequired referendum for it. I think the next time the French come up with a bright idea for the EU there will be a collective rolling of eyes.

mike65

Agree with all that, the French are now praying to Betsy that everyone gets to vote and that several nations reject the "constitution" so they can say - "well its not just our fault".

Chirac on TV last night sounded like a man out of touch he also sounded pretty weary and that'll get worse now he's set two men (Nicolas Sarkozy and Dominique de Villepin) who are rivals and who have different visions of France on a collision course.

Mike.

gandalf

Looks like the Dutch have shot it down as well 62% against http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4601439.stm

It will be interesting if Bertie still insists that we vote on this as its now really dead in the water after 2 founding members of the EU have torpedoed it.

More news and opinions on the Constitution here http://www.euobserver.com/?sid=18

Reader Friendly version of the Constitution here http://www.euabc.com/upload/rfConstitution_en.pdf

Lennoxschips

There was a town in Holland called Urk where 91.6% of the people voted against the treaty. That's just ridiculous.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

toiletduck

Lennoxschips wrote:

There was a town in Holland called Urk where 91.6% of the people voted against the treaty. That's just ridiculous.

i agree... Urk is a stupid name.

Imposter

The parliment ratified it here in Austria but if it had gone to the people there would have been no chance of it getting through. The same is probably true of germany. The EU needs to look at where it's gonig and what its people think of it at the moment. Trying ot push true reforms, whether neccessary or not, that people are uncomfortable with is not going to do it any favours. Bertie ddin't help matters with his re-vote on Nice either.

toiletduck

i really dont see why the european leaders are saying that the ratification needs to be continued in the states that havent voted yet. The constitution is dead.

ionapaul

Well I saw a very funny interview with a 'professional European' (somebody or other working in Brussells) this morning on EuroNews who chose to spin the two referendum results as a *positive* event for the EU constitution - now the smaller countries could really show their support for the constitution, without being overshadowed by French or Dutch support! It was a hilarious but predictable line to take by the spin doctors...

capistrano

On an ITV News report yesterday I noticed that the Dutch were voting on the very same electronic voting machines that caused such a frenzy here last year. Obviously they really voted yes and someone got in a fiddled with the results!

Quantum

toiletduck wrote:

i really dont see why the european leaders are saying that the ratification needs to be continued in the states that havent voted yet. The constitution is dead.

The Constitution is indeed dead.

But I don't accept your generality about "european leaders" saying that ratification needs to be continued. In every group of people you can always find a few with almost any opinion. And what does 'european leaders' mean exactly ?
My understanding is that most leading figures in the EU now see it as dead and have accepted it as such.

toiletduck

Quantum, i was referring to the likes of President Chirac, Prime Minister Jean-Claude Juncker of Luxembourg and Bertie who have been calling for the ratification process to continue despite what has happened.

Sand

Chirac isnt a European leader though. Hes a politically dead in the water, internationally discredited and his response to the defeat of the referendum is to appoint a man whose never stood for public office as Prime Minister, and who apparently has no ideas whatsoever on what to do other than waffle.

The parliment ratified it here in Austria but if it had gone to the people there would have been no chance of it getting through. The same is probably true of germany. The EU needs to look at where it's gonig and what its people think of it at the moment. Trying ot push true reforms, whether neccessary or not, that people are uncomfortable with is not going to do it any favours. Bertie ddin't help matters with his re-vote on Nice either.

This is a result of the basest level of politicians, whereby they blame Brussels for all thats wrong with the world, and how the EU is screwing over their country in particular. Its been going on for decades, and then the European governments are surprised that people are actually coming round to the opinion that the EU is bad for them?

The EU has actually been fantastic for us, and in Ireland especially it stands as the body that can force the Irish government to live up to basic standards of government and accountability. Stabilising the exchange rates and the economic liberalisation that the EU is forcing the government to carry out it also a massive boon to us. Do you think Eircom would be offering broadband to us if it wasnt forced kicking and screaming to? Let alone that it was the EU Parliment that is assisting the McCartneys with funds for their civil case.

But youll rarely hear Irish politicians champion the EU in any real sense. Same across Europe. People are merely picking up the signals from politicians who in word and deed discredit the EU at every opportunity, and then yet expect voters to support their treaties.

Quantum

Sand wrote:

This is a result of the basest level of politicians, whereby they blame Brussels for all thats wrong with the world, and how the EU is screwing over their country in particular. Its been going on for decades, and then the European governments are surprised that people are actually coming round to the opinion that the EU is bad for them?

The EU has actually been fantastic for us, and in Ireland especially it stands as the body that can force the Irish government to live up to basic standards of government and accountability. Stabilising the exchange rates and the economic liberalisation that the EU is forcing the government to carry out it also a massive boon to us. Do you think Eircom would be offering broadband to us if it wasnt forced kicking and screaming to? Let alone that it was the EU Parliment that is assisting the McCartneys with funds for their civil case.

But youll rarely hear Irish politicians champion the EU in any real sense. Same across Europe. People are merely picking up the signals from politicians who in word and deed discredit the EU at every opportunity, and then yet expect voters to support their treaties.

This is an excellent and far reaching point. Our system of democracy promotes a blame culture and it has been all to easy for everyone and anyone who has a gripe to blame the EU. After all they don't argue back.

Now we are reaping what we sow.

Unfortunately we are also suffering from incompetent management at the highest levels when a project like this is handed to a past president of France who's interest is mainly in his own legacy and reputation, and not in the best interests of the Euopean people.

mike65

So then, Jack Straw (UK Foreign Minsister) is due to announce that the British Government is putting the UK ref on hold. Which means the Brits will get blamed by Olde Europe esp for killing of the EU Constitution. Meanwhile Chriac and his fellow deluded are huddled together telling each other black is white and the show must go on.

Just to add some spice the money markets are now marking the Euro down
as sceptics take heart while looking at Italy which some think is heading for current account meltdown and that such is the likelyhood of bad blood between member states that no-one will come to thier rescue.

Mike.

Sand

Latvia has voted the constitution through.

To be honest, whilst Im not totally unhappy with the constitution being put aside, Im a little disturbed with the idea that the French voted against it, 10 countries have voted for it, but France=Europe so no point going any further.

The French voting no isnt a reason to stop - the treaty includes recognition that not all countries might ratify it first time. When Chirac is removed from power theres every chance the French will actually examine the treaty itself and maybe vote in favour of it. The other side of things is that with a split leftist camp, and Chiracs camp in meltdown, the door is open for Le Pen and his buddies to improve on their showing last time out and go all the way in the next elections. That really would be the end of Frances participation in the EU.

Unfortunately we are also suffering from incompetent management at the highest levels when a project like this is handed to a past president of France who's interest is mainly in his own legacy and reputation, and not in the best interests of the Euopean people.

Yup - the sad thing is they were amalgamating treaties, not creating a constitution. It had to be a very precise, boring, dry legal document to spell out exactly how the EU is run. They were trying to do too much all at once.

In comparison, if you look at the US constitution its full of idealistic feel good stuff and important brakes on centralising power and above all its not boring. Its a statement of intent that all Americans - who are easily as diverse in ethnic and cultural makeup as Europeans are - can find agreeable, even sacred! The US institutions of the state - flag, constitution, the checks and balances, etc etc are what unite Americans, rather than colour, creed or national heritage.

Theres a lesson for the EU there, because there is little in the way of a common european heritage beyond the fact we all hate each other and have all tried to kill each other in the past..The EU constitution is very hard to get worked up about. It should have been a document that set out in clear, easily understood terms what the EU was about, and how it was going to carry out that mission in broad terms. Leave the details to the individual treaties. And more importantly, whilst politicians in the US of all stripes champion the institutions that unite the US, in the EU politicians of all stripes dismiss them.

utopian

Sand wrote:

When Chirac is removed from power theres every chance the French will actually examine the treaty itself and maybe vote in favour of it.

I think that the refusal of the pro-Europeans to acknowledge that there may be valid anti-treaty arguments, and the pretence that only "yes" voters understand the treaty, demonstrates an anti-democratic mindset.

Do you think the Spaniards "examined the treaty itself"? Is that why less than half of the electorate bothered to vote? Should they have a re-vote as well?

A refusal to accept the judgement of the French and Dutch voters risks turning a setback into a crisis.

capistrano

utopian wrote:

A refusal to accept the judgement of the French and Dutch voters risks turning a setback into a crisis.

If we accept the French and Dutch vote then we truely have a crisis. And we do have a crisis!

The job now is to keep the show on the road. Work with the existing treaties and keep public confidence in the European project.

Stern magazine this week ran a story about a meeting between the German Finance Minister (Hans Eichel) and senior Bundesbannk economists to discuss a plan to reinstate the Deutschmark should monetary union disintegrate.

The story is that the Italian economy is a basket case. Without the Euro the lira would have been devalued by now. But obviously that can't happen. Are other EU powers prepared to step in to back up Italy? In the looser environment post the No votes in France and Holland maybe not!

This is very scary stuff. Loose anti-EU talk now can have very serious consequences. I really believe we could be at a turning point in the evolution of Europe. And if the EU doesn't continue to be a strong force Ireland can only suffer.

Be afraid, be very afraid!

Quantum

capistrano wrote:

Be afraid, be very afraid!

In your dreams.

There is a crisis - but only a crisis with respect to one single project. The media is stirring it up and some people swallow everything they read in a newspaper. It becomes as self fulfilling prophecy. The Germans have no intention whatsoever to abandoning the hugely successful Euro The Italians may well - and it would do us no harm if they did. The Italians have grossly mismanaged their currency, like so much else they put their hand to. It has nothing to do with the Euro or the Euro project - only Italian hypocricy.

The Constitution is Dead. If they have any sense they will take the document, split it to relevant, manageable sections and strip out the crap. Then it will return and probably be passed with little fuss if they are honest and transparent about it.

bonkey

capistrano wrote:

If we accept the French and Dutch vote then we truely have a crisis.

Right...because we didn't complain when they didn't accept our first vote
on Nice. We thought they were slap bang in order to insist on a re-vote.

Its democracy. Accept it.

And we do have a crisis!

Do we? That implies that we're in a crisis and that only the constitution could bail us out. After all, refusal to accept the constitution leaves us exactly where we are. Why is this a crisis?

I mean what was in the constitution that we cannot continue without? And which of those aspects cannot be taken individually as new seperate treaties while they try and figure out what they can sell to the various publics to get tighter integration.

The job now is to keep the show on the road.

Other than some playacting to the media, and the markets overreacting as they always do, the show is on the road.

Stern magazine this week ran a story about a meeting between the German Finance Minister (Hans Eichel) and senior Bundesbannk economists to discuss a plan to reinstate the Deutschmark should monetary union disintegrate.

Oh right...we've had no said to the EU, so obviously all the stuff we said yes to now should fall apart. I've seen such articles too, and I can't figure out what the hell these people are thinking.

Recall the Nice vote. The No voters cried doom and gloom and an EU Federal Superstate (or whatever Typedef consistently called it) as smoe sort of inevitable outcome. The yes voters pointed out the fallacy of the slippery-slope argument there, and that one could easily vote for Nice without favouring the EUFS notion.

Now, we see the reverse...someone said NO, so not only does that mean we can't take this step forwards, but that they are now also somehow retroactively opposed to all the steps that we have taken, and that everything is going to fall apart.

Its political opportunism being fuelled by the media. THe media make a big noise over the No. The opponents of anything already in place predict it will all fall apart, and start making noise about how we can cater with the disintegration of the EU.

Its just another fallatious slippery slope argument.

Loose anti-EU talk now can have very serious consequences.

Yup. Very scary. People will buy more newspapers. The post-rate on Politics will go way up. And in the meantime, the politicians will do what they always do, which is mostly to ignore public hysteria and to go and do their job to further the aims that they've always been working towards.

I really believe we could be at a turning point in the evolution of Europe.

Yeah we might be...if our politicians are dumb enough to start listening to public hysteria now. Or if - lord forbid - people start ating on their hysteria in general elections, resulting in significant political shifts.

And if the EU doesn't continue to be a strong force Ireland can only suffer.

I'm expecting to hear this a lot in coming weeks. I even expect to hear it from people who've argued in the past that the EU hasn't really given us anything.

Villain

Jack Straw is set to announce that the UK will not hold a referendum on the EU Constitution after the French and Dutch rejected it, so looks like its dead in the water now.

The Corinthian

Quantum wrote:

The Italians may well - and it would do us no harm if they did. The Italians have grossly mismanaged their currency, like so much else they put their hand to. It has nothing to do with the Euro or the Euro project - only Italian hypocricy.

Other than the fact that you’re making quite a few rather offensive accusations specifically directed at a nation rather than a government or even specific policy, without any evidence whatsoever, where do you get the notion that the currency has been mismanaged - especially given that Italy no longer handles her own currency? Market reform and public deficit have certainly been badly handled (largely due to the distraction of Berlusconi’s American adventure), but that’s not the same thing as currency, is it?

I’d also be interested to know how you came to the conclusion that this was as a result of “Italian hypocrisy”, or at least how this was so more hypocritical than other nation that you felt the need to single it out.

Failing the above, an apology will suffice.

Cork

Quantum wrote:

The Constitution is indeed dead.

If it is - It can be brought back to life.

The EU has to be competitive on a global basis. Change will be essential in France.

Many countries in the EU have unemployment rates over 10%. They need to change.

Quantum

The Corinthian wrote:

Other than the fact that you’re making quite a few rather offensive accusations specifically directed at a nation rather than a government or even specific policy, without any evidence whatsoever, where do you get the notion that the currency has been mismanaged - especially given that Italy no longer handles her own currency?

There is nothing offensive about my comments - get a life for goodness sakes. And clearly I used the word Currency instead of economy by mistake. A grevious sin for which I apologise abjectly. They have indeed been grossly incompetent and that is the cause of their problems. Germany has simply hidden their head in the sands and the politicians have acted with deep cowardice. They know well what to do to fix their economy and yet refuse to take risks.
But the tide is turning from some evidence in the media and it appears that a willingness to tackle public spending, privatisation and competition is emerging.

Once the current trumped up 'crisis' about the EU and the Euro settled down maybe we will enter a period of reform of those countries and the EU and Euro will drive onward - as long as they take a time out from more major EU changes.

Quantum

Cork wrote:

If it is - It can be brought back to life.

The EU has to be competitive on a global basis. Change will be essential in France.

Many countries in the EU have unemployment rates over 10%. They need to change.

I don't believe that they need this Constitution in order to reform themselves.