Is the EU Constitution now dead?

bonkey

Quantum wrote:

I don't believe that they need this Constitution in order to reform themselves.

Absolutely right.

The EU has managed to get this far, with all the reform to date, without a Constitution.

To suggest it can go no further without one would require to show that we have reached some insurmountable obstacle which only a constitution could resolve. To date, no-one has even suggested the existence of such an obstacle.

jc

mike65

Whats all this we stuff?

From Jack Straws speech.

“It is now for European leaders to reach conclusions on how to deal with the situation,” he told MPs.

“Until the consequences of France and the Netherlands being unable to ratify the Treaty are clarified, it would not in our judgment now be sensible to set a date for second reading.”

Mike.

The Corinthian

Quantum wrote:

There is nothing offensive about my comments - get a life for goodness sakes.

Suggesting that the Italians mismanage “much else they put their hand to” or that it is as a result of “Italian hypocrisy” is highly offensive - there’s frankly no getting away from that. And given you throw out these accusations without any argument, let alone evidence, I would have to ask you to either back up those claims or retract them.

And clearly I used the word Currency instead of economy by mistake.

Pretty basic mistake considering you were apparently attempting some form of economic argument. Not that you did put forward any economic argument that would significantly set Italy aside from other European nations (most notably France and Germany) that would have suffered similar economic failures.

They have indeed been grossly incompetent and that is the cause of their problems.

How? How is it similar to “much else they put their hand to”? Or how is it “hypocrisy” as you suggested? At least how in so far that you felt the overwhelming need to single out Italy (from other nations) and accuse her?

Because if you can make such accusations without reason, you’re nothing more than a bigot.

Quantum

Quantum wrote:

There is nothing offensive about my comments - get a life for goodness sakes.

Whatever about your other comments,you wont be saying things like that around here without sanction.
Have a short break from here.

ishmael whale

Some eurobabble from our own Minister for Foreign Affairs. When he says ‘50% of the population of the EU have already ratified the constitution’, I take it he means that states representing 50% of the EU population have ratified it. 50% of the population have not voted for it, as most states are not holding a referendum. So, in one sense, the population's votes do mean nothing – or, at least, only indirectly mean something.

Or is our position that the Constitution should be put to an EU wide referendum, and passed by a simple majority of the EU population? In which case he’s saying that the independence of member states means nothing, and can be ignored as the rest of the EU see fit, even in respect of matters that have not yet been conceded to the centre.

http://news.ft.com/cms/s/acf60bd0-d6c9-11d9-b0a4-00000e2511c8.html

…Ireland on Monday said it would go ahead with its referendum vote. Dermot Ahern, Irish foreign minister, told BBC radio: “You have to look at it from the point of view of countries who have already ratified. Over 50% of the population of the EU have already ratified the constitution. Do we say to those people: `Your votes mean nothing’?’’

Calina

Personally I think it is right to continue - otherwise you leave yourself open to the argument that everyone else can make a decision on your part - I think Jack Straw has left Britain open to this accusation - namely, the French and the Dutch can decide on behalf of Britain.

Quantum

The Corinthian wrote:

Pretty basic mistake considering you were apparently attempting some form of economic argument. Not that you did put forward any economic argument that would significantly set Italy aside from other European nations (most notably France and Germany) that would have suffered similar economic failures.

I suggest to you that one reading of the state of the Italian economy compared with most of the rest of the EU can only result in one conclusion - that their economy has been run in a grossly incomptent fashion. This is an inevitable conclusion and in my opinion a correct one. How can this be offensive or insulting.

The Corinthian

Quantum wrote:

I suggest to you that one reading of the state of the Italian economy compared with most of the rest of the EU can only result in one conclusion - that their economy has been run in a grossly incomptent fashion. This is an inevitable conclusion and in my opinion a correct one. How can this be offensive or insulting.

Are you intentionally ignoring what I’ve pointed out repeatedly?

Other than the fact that you originally singled out Italy - even though her economy was not significantly worse than other EU recessionary state’s (and in some indicators better) - you ascribed this to “Italian hypocrisy” and that her economy (revised from your earlier ‘mistaken’ claim of currency) was mismanaged “like so much else they put their hand to” - both of which are highly inflammatory if not grossly offensive accusations. Especially as you didn’t even bother to back them up, let alone proffer evidence of any kind.

Given, at this stage, that I’ve pointed out these comments repeatedly and you’ve magically overlooked them each time I’ve asked you about them, I can only assume you know exactly what I’m saying but have not yet grown the prerequisite balls to respond.

ishmael whale

Calina wrote:

Personally I think it is right to continue - otherwise you leave yourself open to the argument that everyone else can make a decision on your part - I think Jack Straw has left Britain open to this accusation - namely, the French and the Dutch can decide on behalf of Britain.

When you consider that we held a second referendum on Nice, I think we have to accept that the actions of other countries has a very big impact on what we can decide. In that situation the practical reality was that as every other state ratified the treaty meant we had to too. In this situation the practical fact that France and the Netherlands have rejected the treaty, and Britain has suspended ratification, suggests that a referendum is pointless until we know what we are voting on.

Are we voting on the adoption of the full constitution or just the parts that all states can agree on? Are we voting to say France and the Netherlands have to hold fresh referendums, or what? None of this is clear at present.

Quantum

The Corinthian wrote:

Are you intentionally ignoring what I’ve pointed out repeatedly?

Other than the fact that you originally singled out Italy - even though her economy was not significantly worse than other EU recessionary state’s (and in some indicators better)

"Italy's economy shrank in the last quarter by 0.3 percent, the most in six years, the national statistics office said Feb. 15. The $1.7 trillion economy was the worst-performer among the four- largest countries sharing the euro last year, gaining 1.1 percent." :rolleyes: Bloomberg

I think that singling out Italy was wholly justified - though I don't want to drag this thread further off topic and am happy to leave it at that.

1203_axle_d3

hopefully this constitution will take its last breath soon..

The Corinthian

Quantum wrote:

I think that singling out Italy was wholly justified - though I don't want to drag this thread further off topic and am happy to leave it at that.

I’m not, so try addressing what you said as I’ve repeatedly asked you too. Here you go - I’ve even put in bold for you:

The Germans have no intention whatsoever to abandoning the hugely successful Euro The Italians may well - and it would do us no harm if they did. The Italians have grossly mismanaged their currency, like so much else they put their hand to. It has nothing to do with the Euro or the Euro project - only Italian hypocricy.

Now try to explain it without sounding too much like a bigot.

capistrano

There was a story on Newsnight last night about Italy. It is Northern League policy to abandon the Euro and reintroduce the Lira, but this time tied to the dollar.

This isn't some half-baked looney idea from some extremists - Northern League is part of the Italian government.

Jean-Claude Trichet, the ECB head, described the notion as "absurd" 4 times in a single response to a journalist.

1203_axle_d3

Scrap the Euro!

Quantum

The Corinthian wrote:

I’m not, so try addressing what you said as I’ve repeatedly asked you too. Here you go - I’ve even put in bold for you:

Now try to explain it without sounding too much like a bigot.

This is the last time I am going to answer your question. I am not a moderator, so I have rules about being abusive that I have to adhere to, rules that you may to be immune to.

"Italy's economy shrank in the last quarter by 0.3 percent, the most in six years, the national statistics office said Feb. 15. The $1.7 trillion economy was the worst-performer among the four- largest countries sharing the euro last year, gaining 1.1 percent." Bloomberg

In other words, and incompetently and hypocritically managed economy. QED.

Calina

- Northern League is part of the Italian government.

true, they are also looking for independence from Italy if I remember correctly...

Red Alert

I think we should hold the vote on it. I personally will be voting against it, but I think it's important we have the referendum so we've a concrete record of where as a nation we stand on the issue. Then Bertie and Brian Cowen cannot claim that we support it or don't support it to suit themselves.

Given their success with nice-2 will they just keep at us till we vote yes?

capistrano

Red Alert wrote:

I think it's important we have the referendum so we've a concrete record of where as a nation we stand on the issue.

And squander millions of euros in the pointless exercise?

The Corinthian

Quantum wrote:

This is the last time I am going to answer your question.

You mean the last time you’re going to evade it. You’ve not addressed it once.

I am not a moderator, so I have rules about being abusive that I have to adhere to, rules that you may to be immune to.

Your opinion to as to being a moderator or not is frankly irrelevant outside of allowing you to blow more smoke to obfuscate your lack of response.

In other words, and incompetently and hypocritically managed economy. QED.

Do you actually know what hypocrisy is? How did that quote in any way demonstrate hypocrisy, let alone how it shows that Italians mismanage “much else they put their hand to”? Seriously - there’s no mention, not even an inference of hypocritical behaviour in that quote.

TBH, at this stage, were you not so offensive you’d be ridiculous.

Now grow a pair and respond or retract.

mike65

Meanwhile back at the ranch...tonights press conference after the EU Summit meeting was an exercise of mind boggling arrogance and "whistling past the graveyard". According to Jean-Claude Junker its buisness as usual. There will be a 2 year period of reflection but after that everyone will vote YES!

Mike.

murphaph

mike65 wrote:

Meanwhile back at the ranch...tonights press conference after the EU Summit meeting was an exercise of mind boggling arrogance and "whistling past the graveyard". According to Jean-Claude Junker its buisness as usual. There will be a 2 year period of reflection but after that everyone will vote YES!

Mike.

Fcuking politicians are the same everywhere! Arrogant shower of pr!cks. I hate to say it because I'm generally an integrationist (is that a word?) but the EU needs to take stock now and relax.

The people of Europe are sick and tired of their inept leaders and any referendum on any issue risks a NO vote because they're the only type of vote that allow people to just say 'NO'. It's not like an election where you hae to vote for some other muppets (spoiling your vote doesn't embarrass anyone).

mycroft

murphaph wrote:

Fcuking politicians are the same everywhere! Arrogant shower of pr!cks. I hate to say it because I'm generally an integrationist (is that a word?) but the EU needs to take stock now and relax.

The people of Europe are sick and tired of their inept leaders and any referendum on any issue risks a NO vote because they're the only type of vote that allow people to just say 'NO'. It's not like an election where you hae to vote for some other muppets (spoiling your vote doesn't embarrass anyone).

It is as always the essential parrallel between early school "now we're all going to stay behind till we get the right answer"

The EU can hide between the polling that the majority of people were voting aganist their governments when they rejected the Nice treaty and the current constitution, but it's wearing bloody thin fast, we're reaching a finite point when the politicians are going to have to address many of the issues raised by voters instead of ignoring their constitutiations and assuring the rest of the EU we'll just keep voting till we get the right answer.

bonkey

mycroft wrote:

we're reaching a finite point when the politicians are going to have to address many of the issues raised by voters instead of ignoring their constitutiations and assuring the rest of the EU we'll just keep voting till we get the right answer.

Maybe if we stopped voting for those particular poli....

nevermind....its a stupid idea.

mycroft

bonkey wrote:

Maybe if we stopped voting for those particular poli....

nevermind....its a stupid idea.

No wait I think you're on to something...... Nah if it hasn't worked yet.......

Quantum

mycroft wrote:

It is as always the essential parrallel between early school "now we're all going to stay behind till we get the right answer"

The EU can hide between the polling that the majority of people were voting aganist their governments when they rejected the Nice treaty and the current constitution, but it's wearing bloody thin fast, we're reaching a finite point when the politicians are going to have to address many of the issues raised by voters instead of ignoring their constitutiations and assuring the rest of the EU we'll just keep voting till we get the right answer.

It's one of those situations where the people (us) have to get the finger out and WRITE to politicians of all parties and our MEP's explaining what it is we want, in a rational and coherent fashion. It's not enough whinging and moaning here on forums (I don't mean you). If we don't tell them clearly and directly then they can always say they didn't know.

I have recently written to a couple of MEP's and got a couple of great responses including one direct phone call from the MEP herself from her Brussels office.

No emails !! Proper ink and paper. TD's, MEP's, Ministers, and the Taoiseach.

The Corinthian

Quantum wrote:

I have recently written to a couple of MEP's and got a couple of great responses including one direct phone call from the MEP herself from her Brussels office.

Given the agility you’ve displayed in avoiding the fact that you’ve been shown up for racist comments here (earlier in this thread in fact), it would seem that you’ve been an excellent student in similar political sidestepping.

Quantum

The Corinthian wrote:

Given the agility you’ve displayed in avoiding the fact that you’ve been shown up for racist comments here (earlier in this thread in fact), it would seem that you’ve been an excellent student in similar political sidestepping.

Your sensetivity toward the hypocritical and incompetent Italians in the EU is admirable and your doggedness in stalking my posts is touching - matched only by the dissembling, misrepresenting and sham accusatations that they contain. But it does nothing for your argument which ......... of course, is completely off topic and irrelevant to this thread.

The Corinthian

Quantum wrote:

Your sensetivity toward the hypocritical and incompetent Italians in the EU is admirable and your doggedness in stalking my posts is touching - matched only by the dissembling, misrepresenting and sham accusatations that they contain. But it does nothing for your argument which ......... of course, is completely off topic and irrelevant to this thread.

No more off topic that your penchant for racist generalisations.

gandalf

Had enough of this thread closed. If I see either of you bickering again I will ban you.