Immirgration Contracts?

KnowItAll

I keep hearing how the economy "needs" immirgration. So lets take Germany as an example of a country that "needed" immirgration.

The German economy was going well years ago so they brought in millions of immirgrants. Now that the economy is going through a very bad spell those immirgrants should be told to go home as they are not needed. But they are there to stay and it's the Germans who are suffering now with high umemployment etc.

This should be a lesson for Ireland. Immirgrants come hear and tell us they are "needed" even though most never even heard of Ireland. These economic migrants ( of which 99% are) should be made to sign a contract and get it renewed every 2-3 years. This way when the economy hits a rough patch their contracts will not be renewed.

This would avoid what happened in Germany and it would benefit the country that the immirgrants are returning to. A win - win situation for all.

billy the squid

If every country in the world were to adopt a policy we would be over run with irish sent home from the likes of America and Austrailia. And you can be sure that there are more Irish in other countries than there are Foreign nationals in this country.

then where would we be.

Hobbes

Why not compare all the countries? You left out the whole unification bit for east/west Germany where they adopted a lot of unemployment.

pete

If it's all the same with you I'll take my immigration policy analysis from someone who can actually spell the word "immigration". Thanks.

Alun

pete wrote:

If it's all the same with you I'll take my immigration policy analysis from someone who can actually spell the word "immigration". Thanks.

But at least he's consistent and spelt it the same way throughout his post ... 7 times in all!

Hobbes

Also "shipping them back to where they came from" wouldn't work. Think about it. Your basically removing people from jobs that they may be actively working in.

So you could be crippling existing businesses.

Btw, economic immigrants do go back to thier home country if there is no more work for them, or depending on visa can prove they will not be a burden on the state.

But then most people who quote the "Go home" argument can't tell the difference between an immigrant, Asylum seeker, refugee or tourist.

sleepwalker

This should be a lesson for Ireland. Immirgrants come hear and tell us they are "needed" even though most never even heard of Ireland

never heard of Ireland ? did you just pull that sentence out of your arse?

Meh

KnowItAll wrote:

I keep hearing how the economy "needs" immirgration. So lets take Germany as an example of a country that "needed" immirgration.

The German economy was going well years ago so they brought in millions of immirgrants. Now that the economy is going through a very bad spell those immirgrants should be told to go home as they are not needed. But they are there to stay and it's the Germans who are suffering now with high umemployment etc.

Germany's economic problems are not caused by immigration. Also, the notion that there is a fixed and unchangeable number of jobs in the economy is one of the most common economic fallacies.

This should be a lesson for Ireland. Immirgrants come hear and tell us they are "needed" even though most never even heard of Ireland. These economic migrants ( of which 99% are) should be made to sign a contract and get it renewed every 2-3 years. This way when the economy hits a rough patch their contracts will not be renewed.

You do know that's exactly how the work permit system works for economic migrants now, right?

sovtek

That's great. I'll go home every 2-3 years...no problem....just give me every cent of tax I've paid back...

KnowItAll

Hobbes wrote:

Also "shipping them back to where they came from" wouldn't work. Think about it. Your basically removing people from jobs that they may be actively working in.

So you could be crippling existing businesses.

I'm sure McDonalds would suffer terrible profit losses!

Hobbes wrote:

Btw, economic immigrants do go back to thier home country if there is no more work for them, or depending on visa can prove they will not be a burden on the state.

Are you having a laugh?

gandalf

sleepwalker wrote:

never heard of Ireland ? did you just pull that sentence out of your arse?

Attack the post and not the poster. 1 week ban.

KnowItAll

sovtek wrote:

That's great. I'll go home every 2-3 years...no problem....just give me every cent of tax I've paid back...

Tax pays for services such as the Gardai etc. You need and use these services while you are here so why should get your tax back?

KnowItAll

pete wrote:

If it's all the same with you I'll take my immigration policy analysis from someone who can actually spell the word "immigration". Thanks.

I'm very sorry to have caused you offence pete. Thanks for pointing out the spelling mistake. I must admit that i'm not the greatest speller in the world!

sceptre

KnowItAll wrote:

even though most never even heard of Ireland.

Is this true? Show me why (please).

More importantly with regard to the discussion:
Have you a specific problem with (or "take issue with" or "are worried by" or whatever you like), presumably an excess of, foreign workers in Ireland or specific problems with immigration as opposed to migration or the other way around? Or both? (that's not a loaded attack btw - it's A, B or C and we're going to have a repeat of one of those useless discussions we've had in the past if you don't lay out your stall now). If it's one or the other what would you specifically do about the particular one you're making your case on or if it's both, what would you think of doing about each? I've got your 2 year contract thing but as Meh mentioned, that's how the current system currently works for non-EU-national workers so what would you be thinking of changing there? I'm assuming you're not referring to asylum-seekers as obviously they don't work.

Hobbes

KnowItAll wrote:

I'm sure McDonalds would suffer terrible profit losses!

I'm sure that was meant as humour and not some kind of ignorant remark.

Are you having a laugh?

No serious. You have a work permit, you loose your job = back to where you came from. Some permits will allow you to stay here if you can prove you will not be a burden on the state.

while you are here so why should get your tax back?

Actually it would be possible to get some (not all) of the tax back. Certainly a number factors in this. For example if you did not earn the tax limit within a given year you could claim it back.

Just because your not Irish doesn't mean you don't have rights.

ressem

I don't know what economic migrants you've encountered that brought on this viewpoint of the visa system.

http://www.anyworkanywhere.com/visasireland.html

If None Of The Above Categories Apply, you will need a work permit.

Your potential employer must make the application and they have to prove that efforts have been made to fill the position from within the EU/EEC.

Work Permits are generally only arranged for qualified people in sectors where skills are in demand.

The categories are Information and Computing Technology Professionals and Technicians, Architects, Engineers, Quantity and Building Surveyors, Town Planners and Registered Nurses.

My previous manager, economic migrant from India,
got a work visa, while here spent a large portion of his income paying for the masters he and his wife did here through evening courses.

http://www.oasis.gov.ie/moving_country/passports_and_visas/student_visas.html
Non eu students working here, paying huge fees are reputedly keeping the 3rd level institutions afloat. That's certainly the case in the UK.

Crash

http://www.oasis.gov.ie/moving_country/passports_and_visas/student_visas.html
Non eu students working here, paying huge fees are reputedly keeping the 3rd level institutions afloat. That's certainly the case in the UK.

Its the case here as well. Trinity makes a large amount of its income (other than research) from Masters courses and that sort of thing, by reserving a certain number of places for EU and non EU students - as the subjects that i know of fall under government subsidised for Irish applicants.

sovtek

KnowItAll wrote:

Tax pays for services such as the Gardai etc. You need and use these services while you are here so why should get your tax back?

If you leave Ireland and sign a form that you aren't going to work in Ireland for a year you can claim that tax year back.
My point was that if you have to leave ever year or every few years then why should you have to pay tax. Yes you use public services while you are here but you also can't collect the dole and other such public services (state pension?) that citizens do...but you are still paying the same tax. On top of that you have to leave and go back "where ya came from" wether you have any ties to that place or not.
I'm not sure if you read the article or not but it shows how migrants pay more in than they get back.

Andrew 83

On Trinity: 87% of Trinity students are from Ireland. I would volunteer that a lot of the other 13% are a mixture of people from the North and Britain as well as other EU states. That said the college are actively seeking to up the number of non-EU students in the college to up money.

On the topic in general: Germany has made a terrible mess of immigration policy and is blatantly racist about it. The Turkish guest workers who moved to Germany in some cases up to three generations ago were never given citizenship and many of their grandchildren who've lived in Germany all their lives are still not entitled to it.

I think anyone who wants to come into Ireland should be able to and try to make their way. Let's not forget that some of the immigrants into Ireland (granted not many of them as a fraction of immigration as a whole) are refugees and asylum seekers who aren't allowed to work even if they want to.

pete

pete wrote:

If it's all the same with you I'll take my immigration policy analysis from someone who can actually spell the word "immigration". Thanks.

Pete,you should know better than to attack the poster.
Temporary ban for that.

johnnyboy4711

To whom it may concern!
there is going to be inbalance in Ireland until Irish people are treated as equals in there own country! At the moment it seems that anyone that decides to come into ireland have a couple of kids gets a housing allowance before irish people who have been on the waiting list for years!
Thus relying on the Irish sense of patience!
this is wrong!
Am I incorrect?
Its a typical Irish solution to an Irish problem,throw TAXPAYERS money at it and it will be fine!
Having previously worked for the past 5 years in a number of countries(Australia,New Zealand,America and the UK)I am amazed to see how the issue is being dealt with here!
After working in immigration in New Zealand I cannot understand how it is so easy for non-nationals to exploit the system.
As for the road network!?!
A Irish citizen and tax contributor,

Hobbes

johnnyboy4711 wrote:

Am I incorrect?

We will know when you quote actual sources of your information.

Oh and remember immigration is not the same as asylum seekers/refugees.

After working in immigration in New Zealand I cannot understand how it is so easy for non-nationals to exploit the system.

Again please quote actual sources of exploiting the system. Thanks.

bonkey

johnnyboy4711 wrote:

To whom it may concern!
Am I incorrect?

Yes, you are.

You fail to notive that there are a myriad of issues in which the Irish people are treated perferentially compared to non-Irish. Your plea for equal treatment is nothing of the sort, becuase you're not going to suggest giving up all the advantages we have in order to claw back some of the ways in which you (incorrectly) seem to think we are disadvantaged. What you want is equal-or-preferential-without-exception treatment for the Irish, not equal treatment.

Its also incorrect that we are disadvantaged in the manner you describe when discussing immigrants, as is the topic. Don't worry though - we're used to seeing those opposed to foreigners being in Ireland confuse the lines between immigrants and asylum seekers to suit their need to complain.

jc

gandalf

johnnyboy4711 wrote:

To whom it may concern!
there is going to be inbalance in Ireland until Irish people are treated as equals in there own country! At the moment it seems that anyone that decides to come into ireland have a couple of kids gets a housing allowance before irish people who have been on the waiting list for years!
Thus relying on the Irish sense of patience!
this is wrong!
Am I incorrect?
Its a typical Irish solution to an Irish problem,throw TAXPAYERS money at it and it will be fine!
Having previously worked for the past 5 years in a number of countries(Australia,New Zealand,America and the UK)I am amazed to see how the issue is being dealt with here!
After working in immigration in New Zealand I cannot understand how it is so easy for non-nationals to exploit the system.
As for the road network!?!
A Irish citizen and tax contributor,

Sources please?

Also next time I see you spamming the same message over multiple threads on Politics I will ban you.

KnowItAll

johnnyboy4711 wrote:

To whom it may concern!
there is going to be inbalance in Ireland until Irish people are treated as equals in there own country! At the moment it seems that anyone that decides to come into ireland have a couple of kids gets a housing allowance before irish people who have been on the waiting list for years!
Thus relying on the Irish sense of patience!
this is wrong!
Am I incorrect?
Its a typical Irish solution to an Irish problem,throw TAXPAYERS money at it and it will be fine!
Having previously worked for the past 5 years in a number of countries(Australia,New Zealand,America and the UK)I am amazed to see how the issue is being dealt with here!
After working in immigration in New Zealand I cannot understand how it is so easy for non-nationals to exploit the system.
As for the road network!?!
A Irish citizen and tax contributor,

Some people are blind to these problems and cannot see whats happening before their eyes.

Irish people should be given first choice in everything ( I'm sick of hearing about this equal rights crap!). Why should an Irish person be left wanting when things like houses and grants are given out to foreign nationals.

Victor

But the problem in Germany is a stagnant economy with large amounts of structural (largely people too old to be retrained in a new job) unemployment in the east.

bonkey

KnowItAll wrote:

I'm sick of hearing about this equal rights crap!

I'm guessing that as soon as some Irish person gets given advantages that are denied to you because of an "unequal rights" policy, that tune would change.

I'm sick of hearing of the number of people who complain about equality of any form for no apparent other reason than because it means they lose out.

But I guess we'll both just have to live with what sickens us.

jc

walshb

KnowItAll wrote:

Some people are blind to these problems and cannot see whats happening before their eyes.

Irish people should be given first choice in everything ( I'm sick of hearing about this equal rights crap!). Why should an Irish person be left wanting when things like houses and grants are given out to foreign nationals.

Knowitall, these Irish people aren't blind to the problem. The trouble is that an awful lot of people in Ireland especially the hoteliers and solicitors are getting very rich from these immigrants and asylum speakers. Everytime a deportation order is issued, some solicitor will challenge it and appeal it at the cost of the taxpayer. Hoteliers are being paid by the state to house these immigrants and refugees. It's a blank cheque for them. I have no problem what so ever with legitimate asylum seekers and immigrants, it's the abuse of the system that needs to be stopped. But what happens when we try apply the rules???, the 'dogooders' are up in arms calling the damn race card, refugee council and civil liberties etc etc. Ireland at the moment can't eve deal with their own people, yet the floodgates are opened here for anyone to enter without even the remotest sign of screening. My god, not even a health check is done and considering the rise of HIV and HEP C in the 3rd world, you would think that we would be more vigilant. As regards Irish people being given first choice or preference as regards housing etc. I agree fully. Take care of your own people first, then HEAL the world

Hobbes

KnowItAll wrote:

Some people are blind to these problems and cannot see whats happening before their eyes.

Again.. please quote some sources. You will never open anyones eyes if you just spout out like that.

The Corinthian

I was in Switzerland last week, where they’re presently in the process of holding a referendum that would ratify a number of bilateral agreements that they presently have with the EU. I loved the No Campaign posters in particular for their emotive and largely hysterical approach. Reading through this thread KnowItAll reminded me of this.

KnowItAll began with a fundamentally flawed theory that claimed that Germany’s economic woes were as a result of immigration. When it was pointed out to him (or her) that this was a simplistic supposition and that it ignored the effects of reunification, which (surprise, surprise) coincide with the decline of Germany’s economy, he (or she) quietly ignored the rather gaping hole in his (or her) logic.

Additionally, the effects of contract immigration when reversed on Ireland (in particular were the US or Australia to send back all those Irish who immigrated there) would more than reverse any benefits that we would escrow from such a policy here. This too was both pointed out to him (or her) and ignored.

Additionally no sources, let alone credible ones, have been proffered. Of course there’s nothing wrong with this as long as it is explained that this is opinion rather than fact, but the lack of deduction in this opinion seems to render it invalid.

If there is a problem with immigration, be it the volume or simply how it is handled, then this should be examined rationally and coldly. However, what has been put forward here has been little more than argument induced from a premise that it is bad rather than the reverse and appears to be as hysterical and emotive as the opposite calls that any criticism is tantamount to racism.

bonkey

The Corinthian wrote:

I was in Switzerland last week,

And we coulda done beers if I had known

where they’re presently in the process of holding a referendum that would ratify a number of bilateral agreements that they presently have with the EU.

Schengen/Dublin, this weekend. Looks like it should be a Yes vote.

I loved the No Campaign posters in particular for their emotive and largely hysterical approach.

Interestingly, such "hysteria-based" tactics have been so successful that someone on the Yes side did up a set of posters done in exactly the same style!

Offtopic, I know...but it just goes to show that the "sensationalist" approach of making big, brash, loud statements in order to cover up a lack of actual solid evidence to support the underlying theory is one that works.

Unfortunately.