Immirgration Contracts?

bonkey

Metrobest wrote:

I'm not quite sure what you mean.

What I mean is that you don't seem to distinguish between asylum seekers and immigrants, and seem to suggest they should both be subject to some "cultural indocrination" in order to be allowed stay here.

I'm just wondering why you brought asylum seekers into a discussion about immigrants. As I said - you seem to equate them just because they're foreign. Tell me - if I marry a (non-EU) foreigner abroad and bring them back to Ireland - should they also be forced to undergo this Irishification or be kicked out?

Victor

bonkey wrote:

"cultural indocrination" ... Irishification

One has to be careful to differentiate indocrination from education. The USA insist all new (naturalised) citizens speak English, not to control them, but to prevent them being exploited through lack of knowledge of local norms.

KnowItAll

The Corinthian wrote:

You were’nt answering arguments posed against you prior to your ban, in fairness.

I'll answer all arguments that are sticking to the point I was making!

The Corinthian wrote:

Back to blaming Germany’s economic woes on immigration again, I see.

How? I've already explained it to you, I blame the German government for Germany's economic problems.

The Corinthian

KnowItAll wrote:

I'll answer all arguments that are sticking to the point I was making!

Except that people were specifically addressing your arguments and you were not responding.

How? I've already explained it to you, I blame the German government for Germany's economic problems.

More correctly you denied it and I refuted your denial in my last post - I even quoted what you said to illustrate my point. I note you’ve conveniently ignored that.

bonkey

Victor wrote:

One has to be careful to differentiate indocrination from education. The USA insist all new (naturalised) citizens speak English, not to control them, but to prevent them being exploited through lack of knowledge of local norms.

Education, I've no problem with. Suggesting people must be educated to make sure that they are comfortable adapting to their new cultural home., coupled with the followup insistence that Those who find they are not, must leave. doesn't sound like education to me.

jc

Metrobest

Bonkey, I hope you can understand my point. I'm not saying that people who come to Ireland should be indoctrinated in "Oirishness" and that they won't qualify to live here unless they go to mass and wear GAA jerseys and drink guinness. What I'm saying is that people who do not feel comfortable with Irish society and culture must leave. We would not allow a practicing cannibal to settle here; so why should we allow someone who believes in female circumcision? We need legislation that's firm - and fair. To everyone: including Irish taxpayers.

All cultures are not equal: Islam, in particular, is a backward culture, and those who believe in its core principles have about them an ideology incompatible with Western values. In Holland, an open-door immigration policy allowed hundreds of thousands of Muslims settle in the Netherlands. However, they could not, did not, integrate with the native population. A liberal culture conspired to silence anyone who felt the immigration policy was getting out of control. In the end, those who did speak out were branded racists. Since the muder of Theo van Gogh and the deathlist which has forced Ayaan Hirsi Ali into hiding, the attitude has hardened and you will now hear Dutch politicians say quite openly that immigrants must integrate, or leave. I think this is a perfectly fair principle. Someone who arrives in your country, wants to take advantage of all the opportunities the country offers them, must repay society's kindness by fully embracing society. If you think that's harsh, I would advise you to look at the Dutch model, which has proven that open-door immigration policies lead to disaster. It has resulted in a climate where islam dissidents are, from their ghetto (both physical and cultural), promoting disharmony, and plotting to destroy the foundations of the wonderful country they have settled in, ruining it for all the ordinary, genuine Western immigrants whose cultural influences make Holland a wonderful place to live in. Ireland cannot afford to make Holland's mistakes.

But let me make clear: I have no problem with any immigrant/asylum seeker coming to Ireland, integrating, and bringing the civilised aspects of their culture along with them. But certain basic values - the role of women, female circumcision, tolerance of homosexuality, etc. - are things which cannot be comprimised in the guise of "multiculturalism."

Hobbes

You keep touting Mulsims as your argument.

What about abortions? We don't allow abortions in Ireland, should anyone who disagrees should be removed from Ireland? Its only in the last generation that the role of women has been expanded, Ireland is famous for it. Likewise with tolerance of homosexuality, I wouldn't call that an Irish trait considering it is only the last few years it was openly accepted and is still considered illegal in certain instances.

As for female circumcision, as far as I am aware it is illegal here. They wouldn't get deported, they would go to jail.

So you have something against muslims? I get the general impression you have no clue about Islam religion, only a certain aspect of it (like Comparing Catholics to those that throw acid on people). Muslims have been living in Ireland for quite some time (certainly before I was born) and we had no problems? Why suddenly now?

Sand

All cultures are not equal: Islam, in particular, is a backward culture, and those who believe in its core principles have about them an ideology incompatible with Western values.

Islam is a religion, and its not backward. It is very anarchic - theres no central authority setting doctrine, beyond maniacs killing anyone who they feel "insults the prophet". This is good an bad - it means that no one person or group of people can influence the religion for ill, but it also means the reverse.

Backward cultural elements associated with Islam are not due to Islam but the local cultures through which Islam has spread. Islam is commonly viewed as anti - woman, but in China there are female immans - they were protected from the Saudi sponsored wahhibi drive by Chinas dislike for anything they dont control. Islam, like Christianity, is used by people to defend and sanctify their interests or personal beliefs. Like the Bible I imagine you can find something to support anything in the Koran - from treating women like chattel to killing unbelievers. Its the culture underlying the interpretation that makes the difference.

The problem is that immigrants from cultures alien to our own can suffer from culture shock, and Islamic fundamentalism offers something familiar, something that helps explain the world to them, in a negative light that helps them feel superiour to the decadent, corrupt West. Theyre hardly going to integrate then.

bonkey

Metrobest wrote:

What I'm saying is that people who do not feel comfortable with Irish society and culture must leave.

But thats not what you're saying.

You're saying that people who's culture we don't feel comfortable with, and who aren't willing to give up (at least some of) the aspects of their culture that we find uncomfotable should be forced to leave.

If I was living in a foreign country (oh, look, I am) and I didn't feel comfortable there...I'd move. The fact that I'm staying means I feel comfortable. Whether or not I am integrating into the local culture is a completely seperate issue, as is whether or not the locals are happy with my culture in amongst the midst of theirs.

All cultures are not equal:

Equal as your culture defines it, yes?

Islam, in particular, is a backward culture,

As Sand pointed out, its a religion, not a culture.
Its also backward based on your cultural perspective.

and those who believe in its core principles have about them an ideology incompatible with Western values.

Which core principles? The ones that say its a religion of peace?

Or by core principles do you mean the extremist/fundamentalist aspects that have taken hold in parts?

Should I equally judge the cultures which practice a Christian religion based on the fundamentalists and extremists who believe they are doing the Lord's work, regardless of whether they make a majority of practioners, policy-makers, or anything?

The KKK believed in God...can I use them to say that Christianity is a backwards culture which believes in racism?
The Catholic Church is effectively homophobic - what does that say about our Catholic culture?
And lets not even get into the hypocracy of a religion which preaches equality for women except within its own ranks. Is that a fair cultural comment on Catholic nations as well - that we're hypocritical about equality?

In Holland, an open-door immigration policy allowed hundreds of thousands of Muslims settle in the Netherlands.

And in Switzerland, the largest Tamil population outside Sri Lanka moved in with nary a problem of the nature you describe. The major difference is that the Swiss welcomed the Tamils as well as just letting them in.

But let me make clear: I have no problem with any immigrant/asylum seeker coming to Ireland, integrating, and bringing the civilised aspects of their culture along with them. But certain basic values - the role of women, female circumcision, tolerance of homosexuality, etc. - are things which cannot be comprimised in the guise of "multiculturalism."

So again - you tried to sell a pitch that if they didn't feel comfortable, they had to leave, but what you really meant is that if you didn't comfortable, they had to leave.

So its still little more than "get Oirish, or get out".

jc

Metrobest

Bonkey etc., what is your policy on immigration/asylum then? An open door? You seem to be coming from the standpoint of "all cultures are equal" but that leads to the kinds of problems which are clearly visible in Holland.

I am a secularist and I have no time for the Catholic religion, indeed, any religion. However, there are no Irish examples (aside from the IRA but that's another issue) of catholic fundamentalists murdering filmmakers in the most gruesome fashion imaginable, and politicians who need teams of bodygaurds to protect them from Irish passport-holders who want have sworn a solemn oath to kill them. Ireland has enough conservative crackpots as it is. We do not need an influx of muslim fundamentalists. Certainly not in the guise of multiculturalism.

Multiculturalism works when cultures can relate to one another on some level. But on no level can Irish society relate to those who believe in the backwardness of Islam. By definition, asylum seekers are seeking freedom from their native country. Ireland can offer them that freedom only if they relinquish aspects of their culture which we (for good reason) are opposed ti. Otherwise, they should go home where they can feel more comfortable. Why should we apologise for asking the reasonable request that all non-Western immigrants who come here integrate and accept and respect our values and democracy? These are basic, reasonable requirements and those who cannot meet them must leave.

murphaph

Metrobest,
You're making some serious generalisations about billions of people. I do however agree with the broad thrust of your stance. The facts are this; we live in a westernised liberal society, where we take certain things for granted. These 'values' for want of a better word define our 'culture'. Certain INDIVIDUALS do not accept these values yet insist on living in their adoptive countries and this causes disharmony. We've seen what's his face in Brixton (anybody remember his name?) who openly despises Britain yet is seemingly happy to live there. It's not a question of asking people to give up traditions and/or religions, just that they integrate into their new home (not assimilate!! their cultures bring value to Ireland so assimilation is not desirable!!).

I hate that this keeps touching on Islam tbh but seeing as it is, I work with 3 muslims-all vastly different characters with varying levels of commitment to the religion. 2 of them are immigrants and 1 was born here. The 2 who migrated here are less into the whole thing than the Irish guy!! Both of them are drinkers/smokers/womanisers etc. so it's not on just to say "all muslims are x. y or z".

bonkey

Metrobest wrote:

Bonkey etc., what is your policy on immigration/asylum then? An open door?

What makes you think I supoprt an open-door policy? The fact that I disagree that you can ban people because you're scared of their cultural difference?

You seem to be coming from the standpoint of "all cultures are equal" but that leads to the kinds of problems which are clearly visible in Holland.

Explain to me how it didn't lead to the same problems in Switzerland with the Tamils (and the rest of the more-than-1-in-8 foreigners). Otherwise, I would suggest it was not the numbers that were let in, nor their cultures, which was the base issue.

I am a secularist and I have no time for the Catholic religion, indeed, any religion.

By your own logic, shouldn't you be made to leave Ireland then. You're obviously not comfortable with its culture...

However, there are no Irish examples (aside from the IRA but that's another issue)

Why is it another issue? Because you're willing to accept the murdering scum on this island who kill in teh name of what they believe in, but as soon as they have a different god, a different colour of skin, or a different native language, they're a far more unacceptable kind of murdering scum?

Ireland has enough conservative crackpots as it is.

My point exactly. The only difference between foreign crackpots and irish crackpots is their nationality, but your excuse is that its the crackpotedness of these foreigners which makes them unacceptable.

But on no level can Irish society relate to those who believe in the backwardness of Islam.

Either you've mis-stated that, or you've reversed position...you're saying that irish society can't relate to you?

By definition, asylum seekers are seeking freedom from their native country.

Not quite...but close enough for now.

Ireland can offer them that freedom only if

Then its not asylum.

Otherwise, they should go home where they can feel more comfortable.

So you're tellnig me a Muslim would be safer back home where his government is trying to kill him for dissention than he would be living next door to a bunch of Catholics because they have a problem with his religion?

Pull the other one. Its not the asylum seekers who are feeling uncomfortable having had their lives saved.

Why should we apologise for asking the reasonable request that all non-Western immigrants who come here integrate and accept and respect our values and democracy?

Because such racist/cultural/religious discrimination is not a reasonable request. It flies in the face of the UDHR, and our very own laws (and constitution) concerning discrimination.

These are basic, reasonable requirements and those who cannot meet them must leave.

You can't even stop saying they must leave because they aren't comfortable, when what you are very clearly meaning is that we must force them out because people like you aren't comfortable with them being here.

Can you?

If you can't even say honestly and openly what your "reasonable" request is....perhaps you shoudl consider that perhaps its because its not actually all that reasonable when you don't try and reword it to hide its less tolerant aspects.

jc

ArthurDent

Metrobest wrote:

Multiculturalism works when cultures can relate to one another on some level. But on no level can Irish society relate to those who believe in the backwardness of Islam. By definition, asylum seekers are seeking freedom from their native country. Ireland can offer them that freedom only if they relinquish aspects of their culture which we (for good reason) are opposed ti. Otherwise, they should go home where they can feel more comfortable. Why should we apologise for asking the reasonable request that all non-Western immigrants who come here integrate and accept and respect our values and democracy? These are basic, reasonable requirements and those who cannot meet them must leave.

Approx 3.46 million people described themselves as catholic here in Ireland in the last census
http://www.cso.ie/statistics/popnclassbyreligionandsex2002.htm
That would seem to me to define our "values" as predominantly catholic - I'd have pretty major problems with a lot of the values held by catholics, birth control, homosexuality, divorce, aids prevention- to name but a few - does that mean I should scuttle off somewhere else? Somewhere I'd feel more comfortable?

What definition of Islam can you use to describe it as backwards? - certainly some fundamentalist sects would have values and beliefs that I'd find questionable - , but I have a pretty big problem with fundamentalists of most major religions - female circumcision, birth control, divorce, stem cell treatment, just a couple of areas. There are probably more common areas in faith systems such as Islam and Christianity than differences (both montheistic, even share most of old testament). You can always find fundamentalists in any religious grouping you want - don't think you can use religion as a reason for deciding who should be allowed stay in a country (didn't a funny looking Austrian guy try and do that in the 1930's and 40's?)

KnowItAll

The Corinthian wrote:

Except that people were specifically addressing your arguments and you were not responding.

More correctly you denied it and I refuted your denial in my last post - I even quoted what you said to illustrate my point. I note you’ve conveniently ignored that.

I have explained already that I don't blame immigrants for germanys problems, I blame the government. Do you not believe me? If I thought it was the immigrants fault then believe me, I'd say it!

You keep saying I avoided answering some questions. I don't know what questions and couldn't be bothered to go looking all the way back.

You ask me any question and I will gladly answer. Some might have good points, I dunno. I'm not trying to avoid anything.

The Corinthian

KnowItAll wrote:

I have explained already that I don't blame immigrants for germanys problems, I blame the government. Do you not believe me? If I thought it was the immigrants fault then believe me, I'd say it!

I’m sorry, but you never mentioned the German government only that the economy was ruined by influx of immigration. So join the dots and don’t try to backtrack - you’re beginning to sound like Quantum, TBH.

You keep saying I avoided answering some questions. I don't know what questions and couldn't be bothered to go looking all the way back.

You ask me any question and I will gladly answer. Some might have good points, I dunno. I'm not trying to avoid anything.

The questions have been asked already, and not only by me. Page back and look at them if you like. There’s numerous posts there. Don’t come back until you do that.

bonkey

KnowItAll wrote:

I blame the government.

....for letting too many immigrants in, and allowing those immigrants to stay while the presence of those immigrants screwed the economy.....

So its not the immigrants, but rather the immigration policy that you blame?

jc

KnowItAll

bonkey wrote:

....for letting too many immigrants in, and allowing those immigrants to stay while the presence of those immigrants screwed the economy.....

So its not the immigrants, but rather the immigration policy that you blame?

jc

I was actually talking about how the economy went bad in the first place but since you brought it up then yes, I do blame the government for not deporting the immigrants.

They came to Germany to make money so I think they should leave or be deported if they are draining the economy.

KnowItAll

The Corinthian wrote:

I’m sorry, but you never mentioned the German government only that the economy was ruined by influx of immigration. So join the dots and don’t try to backtrack - you’re beginning to sound like Quantum, TBH..

Thanks for the apology. I'm not backtracking btw. Don't know who quantum is?

The questions have been asked already, and not only by me. Page back and look at them if you like. There’s numerous posts there. Don’t come back until you do that.

I invited you to ask me any question you liked. Can you not think of any? You did say there were loads of questions I avoided!

The Corinthian

KnowItAll wrote:

Thanks for the apology.

I wasn’t apologising - I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you were being facetious in saying I was.

I'm not backtracking btw.

Your initial post said nothing about governments, only immigration. You only change your tune and shift your emphasis a few posts ago in response to me - so you are backtracking. Pretty obviously at that.

Don't know who quantum is?

Another poster who is loathed to respond to points he doesn’t like.

I invited you to ask me any question you liked. Can you not think of any? You did say there were loads of questions I avoided!

And I suggested you respond to some of the questions and rebuttals that were directed towards you that you casually ignored. Specifically we could mention:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2825995&postcount=8
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2830950&postcount=15
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2837153&postcount=18

seedot

However, there are no Irish examples (aside from the IRA but that's another issue) of catholic fundamentalists murdering filmmakers in the most gruesome fashion imaginable, and politicians who need teams of bodygaurds to protect them from Irish passport-holders who want have sworn a solemn oath to kill them. Ireland has enough conservative crackpots as it is. We do not need an influx of muslim fundamentalists. Certainly not in the guise of multiculturalism.

The largest number of non-EU migrants in Ireland come from a country where Catholics ARE murdering people on behalf of their religion, where doctors and medical centres do have bodyguards and security because of them. And that is just the Catholics - the same country has a huge number of other christians who are fundamentalist and violent - and that is just when they are in government.

But what would the IDA say if we deported all the Americans?

Metrobest

Seedot, your hyperbolic hatred of America undermines your point.

Bonkey, my point is, the kind of society that exists in today's Ireland is a product of the people who inhabit it. We have control to shape our destiny. Part of that control involves determining who is allowed to join our society, and who should be deported from it.

I'm not anti-immigration and I'm not anti-Islam. I have friends and colleagues in the Netherlands who are Muslim; I am happy to see the checkout girls in the Dutch supermarkets wearing their head gear, which is something you don't see too often in Dunnes Stores, Ireland! Muslims who intergrate - and there are a great many of them living in Holland, the prime example being the inspirational Ayaan Hirsi Ali (who is at risk of being murdered) - are a positive influence on society. The problem is when a large number choose not to integrate. Then you get the kind of problems that have caused such awful problems in Holland.

Everyone loves immigrants who integrate. Hence the media hoopla over Kunle's will-he-won't-he-sit-the-leaving-cert debacle. But you won't hear too many media stories about muslim fundamentalists who are coming to Ireland. Perhaps none are coming. If so, be thankful. But be warned: if they do come, we must not sweep it under the carpet and pretend they will all embrace Irish society and its values. The lesson of Holland is that this attitude is dangerously complacent.

mycroft

Metrobest wrote:

Seedot, your hyperbolic hatred of America undermines your point.

Uh ? Were did you see the capitalist pig running dog imperalist scum in seedots post? He's raising a valid point, are Catholics and Fundamentalists christians in the US killing doctors to support their worldview? Yes. Is this an example of fundamentalist behaviour among christians.

Bonkey, my point is, the kind of society that exists in today's Ireland is a product of the people who inhabit it. We have control to shape our destiny. Part of that control involves determining who is allowed to join our society, and who should be deported from it.

And of course who says what, who has the right who is allowed to "shape" our destiny?

I'm not anti-immigration and I'm not anti-Islam. I have friends and colleagues in the Netherlands who are Muslim; I am happy to see the checkout girls in the Dutch supermarkets wearing their head gear, which is something you don't see too often in Dunnes Stores,

Some of my best friends are foreigners...... :rolleyes:

Everyone loves immigrants who integrate. Hence the media hoopla over Kunle's will-he-won't-he-sit-the-leaving-cert debacle. But you won't hear too many media stories about muslim fundamentalists who are coming to Ireland. Perhaps none are coming. If so, be thankful. But be warned: if they do come, we must not sweep it under the carpet and pretend they will all embrace Irish society and its values. The lesson of Holland is that this attitude is dangerously complacent.

And the madding hysteria you present lets us whip into a frenzy of paranoia and hysteria to ensure that any immigrants arriving face paranoia and hostility, fine vicious circle your hysteria breeds.

Metrobest

Not hysteria: you obviously have not been following events in Holland over the last 2 years, culminating in the murder of Theo van Gogh and in the huge Dutch rejection of the EU constitution. To translate what had happened recently in Holland into an Irish context, picture this scene: 400,000 muslims are living in Ireland, Kevin Myers has been shot and stabbed in broad daylight on O'Connell Street as "God's punishment" for one of his columns, and Michael McDowell, David Norris and Mary Harney are in hiding becuase a muslim fanatic has scrawled over Myers' body that they are next to die, and a death list is floating about featuring some of the most prominent figures in public life? How would you feel if these events were taking place in Ireland? Would your attitude then still be "oh well, we have catholic crackpots so let's give asylum to loads of muslim crackpots, too"? No, it would probably more in line with my attitude which is: integrated immigration works, open door policies based on a mulitcultural ideology don't. So, to boil it down: a big YES to muslims who are able to live comfortably and normally in Western society; and a "please leave" to those who cannot.

dathi1

Some of my best friends are foreigners......

MyCroft at least he's putting valid arguments across....all you can come up with is: :rolleyes: ????

pete

Metrobest wrote:

To translate what had happened recently in Holland into an Irish context, picture this scene: 400,000 muslims are living in Ireland

To translate it into an Irish context, you'd have to divide that number by 4

Netherlands — Population: 16,407,491 (July 2005 est.)
According to http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/fields/2119.html

Ireland — Population: 4,015,676
According to http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2119rank.html

As of 2002 there were 20,000 muslims in Ireland.

murphaph

pete wrote:

To translate it into an Irish context, you'd have to divide that number by 4

As of 2002 there were 20,000 muslims in Ireland.

The OP was wrong. There are 721,930 Muslims in Holland according to the CIA factbook (4.4% of pop.).

You'd need 176,690 Muslims in ireland to maintain that ratio.

At present there are 236,925 residents defined as 'other religion' by the CIA. This is made up of everything except Catholic and Protestant. They don't give an exact figure for Islam/hinduism/Budhism/Judaism etc.

Where did that figure of 20k come from Pete? I'm not doubting it-just curious where you got it.

Hobbes

pete wrote:

As of 2002 there were 20,000 muslims in Ireland.

Not sure where you got your figure from, but according to the Muslims there are only 5,000

http://www.islamfortoday.com/ireland.htm

Hobbes

Metrobest wrote:

Kevin Myers has been shot and stabbed in broad daylight on O'Connell Street as "God's punishment" for one of his columns, and Michael McDowell, David Norris and Mary Harney are in hiding becuase a muslim fanatic has scrawled over Myers' body that they are next to die, and a death list is floating about featuring some of the most prominent figures in public life?

I love your works of fiction, shame its total tosh comparing Holland to Ireland. Do they have a point?

Frank Grimes

Hobbes wrote:

Not sure where you got your figure from, but according to the Muslims there are only 5,000

http://www.islamfortoday.com/ireland.htm

It's about 20,000 - Link

pete

Hobbes wrote:

Not sure where you got your figure from, but according to the Muslims there are only 5,000

http://www.islamfortoday.com/ireland.htm

2002 Census