NTL finds it's voice again

capistrano

Blaster99 wrote:

I incidently don't think that system used by UPC in Holland is VoIP.

They appear to offer both: "Digitale tenefonie" and just "Telefonie".

The digital telephony is described as:

Digitale telefonie is nieuw en maakt gebruik van de revolutionaire VOIP-technologie. Hierdoor kunnen de kosten voor uw vaste telefoonabonnement en uw gesprekstarieven veel lager uitvallen.

which babelfish translates as:

Digital telephony is new and uses of revolutionary Voip-technologie. Because of this the costs for your fixed tel. subscription and your conversation tariffs much can burst out lower.

causal

Blaster99 wrote:

The killer feature of NTL's VoIP is that they will implement QoS to ensure voice quality.
...
As the ISP's start to offer VoIP they may start blocking access to competing services.

I don't think it's a killer feature of NTLs. As things stand my voice quality is fine with blueface. Also there are limits to the QoS NTL can guarantee even on their own network, nevermind the internet.

And I can't see comreg allowing ISPs block competing VoIP here, check this out

Citron said he was not concerned that telcos' ISP divisions will start to cap or even block VoIP traffic in a bid to protect their revenues as Mexico's Telmex appears to have done. Telmex ADSL subscribers can't even access the Skype website, he said.

"Such actions are already illegal in the US," he told The Register, "and we think the regulator would look on them very unfavourably in the UK." ®

causal

Blaster99

What's your voice quality like if you start an upload in the middle of a conversation?

There's a US network that's [in]famous for blocking out SIP, it's been mentioned a few times around here.

bk

Blaster99 wrote:

What's your voice quality like if you start an upload in the middle of a conversation?

There's a US network that's [in]famous for blocking out SIP, it's been mentioned a few times around here.

Clearwire, a wireless ISP in the US (and now entering the Irish market) do.

bk

causal wrote:

I don't think it's a killer feature of NTLs. As things stand my voice quality is fine with blueface. Also there are limits to the QoS NTL can guarantee even on their own network, nevermind the internet.

The killer feature would be a free ATA (must people aren't willing to pay another €100+ for extra equipment) and just one bill for TV, BB and Phone. Most people wouldn't mind paying a little extra for this convenience.

Plus don't forget, NTL has a major advantage with advertising. They know who has cable BB and they can directly advertise to them, by including leaflets with bills, etc. NTL are really good at this, they have a much higher BB take up rate then Eircom due to these tactics.

NTL has the size and muscle to make VoIP mainstream in Ireland, Blueface could ever only hope to be a niche player.

This will mean that Blueface's only potential customer base are wireless users and heavy international users on DSL.

vibe666

bk wrote:

A wifi voip phone seems to be a bit far fetched.

well, they are out ther. a bit expensive at the moment, but prices will fall as they always do once technology gets established.

causal

Blaster99 wrote:

What's your voice quality like if you start an upload in the middle of a conversation?

There's a US network that's [in]famous for blocking out SIP, it's been mentioned a few times around here.

According to the article in The Register it's illegal in the U.S., so it's surprising if it's happening.

As for uploading a file while using VoIP - most ATA's have built-in QoS provisioning which works fine as long as you have it on the WAN side of your gateway/router or indeed have a gateway with builtin VoIP ports.
Currently my ATA is on the LAN side of my gateway so I do get a loss of quality when VoIP calls are concurrent with full uploads but even at that it's not a call ender.

[EDIT] Of course this is on my home LAN, NTL still can't guarantee WAN or Internet QoS [/EDIT]

causal

causal

bk wrote:

The killer feature would be a free ATA (must people aren't willing to pay another €100+ for extra equipment) and just one bill for TV, BB and Phone. Most people wouldn't mind paying a little extra for this convenience.

True, and most people simply won't delve into the 'techy maze' of figuring out how they can get VoIP - it needs to be made very easy for them.

This will mean that Blueface's only potential customer base are wireless users and heavy international users on DSL.

Possibly, but it depends on what each offers. If it's cheaper for me to stay with blueface then I won't be changing to NTL - even though I am an NTL bb customer.

And the real good news for consumers is that they'll both be fighting for our custom

Will NTL only offer VoIP to their own customers, or will they simply provide a SIP server with un/pw for access - same goes for all the other future VoIP providers.
Triple play bundling has it's advantages - but it also has it's disadvantages - like when you want to change bb provider, move house etc.

causal

bk

causal wrote:

Will NTL only offer VoIP to their own customers, or will they simply provide a SIP server with un/pw for access - same goes for all the other future VoIP providers.

I expect that this service will only be offered to NTL customers and it will be tied strongly with NTL's network. I'd say NTL will make the service as straight forward and "ordinary phone" like as possible, they won't play up the fact that it is VoIP or make use of the nicer VoIP features.

Remember NTL isn't looking to compete with the VoIP companies, it is looking to compete with Eircom and steal their customers. That means they will need to make it as simple as possible in order to attract mainstream customers.

It will probably work by having the ATA built into the modem. The customer simply plugs their standard phone into it. The customer probably won't need to mess with username and passwords or sip settings, NTL will take care of all of that. NTL will probably port your current number to the VoIP setup and for the consumer it will work just like a normal phone, allowing them to send and receive normal calls. They will probably also offer all the other standard phone features, voice mail, caller id, caller blocking, caller waiting, etc. They will probably also properly support 999 calling.

For some idea of the pricing, take a look at http://www.upcfrance.com they offer unlimited local and national calls at anytime for €20. Mobile calls are just 12c per minute at anytime. They also have a €7 offer where you can make local and national calls at anytime for just 1.5c, ideal for people who mostly only receive calls.

I also have a hunch that they could offer this with very cheap "slow" broadband also.
If you take a look at the NTL contract, you will notice that they mention a fourth Broadband product called NTL Broadband Value which has a 3GB cap. Rumour has it that this product would operate at 150k. They could offer the VoIP service with this for €15 - €20 and even sell it to people who don't even want the BB part, but just want to use the phone service.

Also about NTL and QoS. You should remember that NTL has an excellent pan Ireland fiber optic network, that can even challenge Eircoms, also NTL has now been bought by UGC Europe who have a Tier 1, 2.5 Gbps fiber optic backbone network across Europe which was specifically designed to handle Voice and Video as well as data. http://www.ugceurope.com/Technology/
I assume they will expand this network to Ireland and they could certainly enable QoS across thid network. Im' not saying they will, but they could.

causal

bk that all makes sense. I just really dislike that scenario :mad:

It's VoIP, but not as we know it. I'm calling it pVoIP (pseudo VoIP)
It's a dumbed down, controlled, more expensive version of VoIP.
Sure it's cheaper than PSTN, but the providers are keeping control and tying you into their network and services. I don't want that, I want freedom.

I want my VoIP packets to be like all other IP packets - free.

causal

bk

causal wrote:

bk that all makes sense. I just really dislike that scenario :mad:

It's VoIP, but not as we know it. I'm calling it pVoIP (pseudo VoIP)
It's a dumbed down, controlled, more expensive version of VoIP.
Sure it's cheaper than PSTN, but the providers are keeping control and tying you into their network and services. I don't want that, I want freedom.

I want my VoIP packets to be like all other IP packets - free.

Unfortunately the vast majority of people aren't like you and me. They don't want too much freedom, not when it is complex, they just want it simple and easy to understand, they don't want to deal with all the variety of stuff involved with VoIP.

I don't think it is the case that NTL would be trying to control you, it is that in trying to make something simple and easy to use, you often lose flexibility and freedom (I see the same thing happening every day in Software Engineering).

On the bright side, this does show a way in which Blueface/Vonage can survive. By offering the more advanced features from VoIP, such as:

- Portability (being able to take your ATA anywhere).
- Having multiple numbers in different geographical locations redirected to one location (handy for a business wanting a number in 021, 061, etc. and having them all point to your ATA no matter where it is.)
- Advanced voice mail features like checking your voice mails from a website or as an attachement on a email.

Just look at the Vonage website for some of the cool things possible.

Unfortunately for Blueface/Vonage they are never likely to be more then a niche player with this sort of strategy, as most people just don't want these features.