Indicators!!!!!!!

AMurphy

Indicators, I know what they are, but don't really use them much, and as the Camry does not have side relay lamps like your average EU BMW, VW, etc., so even if I have them on they cannot be seen from the side, and that's the important zone.
I look about and if there is nothing there, turn or whatever. If there is something in the way, accelerate or brake and change lane. If there is nobody about for 100 yds in any direction who's there to indicate to anyway, so why bother.
If driving conditions are a bit cramped I probably use them, but that's about it.
Though one cannot say my lamps are difficult to observe, as I fitted them with 50W bulbs.

Question, is it necessary to indicate if you are in a filtered turn-only lane,
If yes. What's the point, ur in a turning lane, what else can you do that's legal?.

If you are in a filtered turn-only lane, how do you differenciate between turning 90 deg and making a 180 "U" turn?. Why,? well if you are in a long or large turning circle vehicle you may have to back up to complete the turn and the last thing you want is someone stuck on your tail.

Many people think using an indicator bestows them with a "right" to change lane, hence my term "Incoming Missile". They do not look, they simply indicate and change lanes expecting you to get out of the way or maybe they think the indicator light is some form of death reay and people just move out if it's way anyway, least they dissappear in a puff of smoke.

Indicators can be dangerous.
Consider you have 2 entrys/exits 20' apart and on the same side as your kerbside.
A car is waiting to exit at the one closest to you as you approach, you turn your indicator to enter (the 2nd one) and before you know it car waiting to exit is in front of you.
Do not indicate until you get past the exiting car and before you know it the car behind you is on your rear seat, 'cause 20 feet is a very short distance to pull up on.
Dammed if you do and dammed if you don't.

DubTony

AMurphy wrote:

Many people think using an indicator bestows them with a "right" to change lane, hence my term "Incoming Missile". They do not look, they simply indicate and change lanes expecting you to get out of the way or maybe they think the indicator light is some form of death reay and people just move out if it's way anyway, least they dissappear in a puff of smoke.

This seems to be standard practice on the continent. I've seen it in Holland, France, and Spain. On a motorway when an indicator goes on, you'd better hit the brakes 'cos that's the European sign for "watch it Paddy, I'm getting in your space". First time, I thought he was mad. Second time I thought I was having a bad week. Third time I was ready. And after that I just went on very carefully. Makes motorway driving real interesting.

seamus wrote:

Sometimes your driving "sixth sense" comes in handy when people don't use their indicators. It's funny on a bike, you become so sensitive to the people who you just *know* are going to move into your lane, or suddenly overtake, or anything else, without indicating. You could pretty much pick them out as you go along, though it's not something you can trust to spot everyone

It's a sort of drivers radar. I call it f*ckingobsh!teontheroaDAR. Had this situation just yesterday. Silly bitch in a Suzuki SUV (thing) drove from Perrystown to Spawell roundabout at 35 - 40 k. Over all the ramps and finally took position on the left lane at the roundabout. I was going right anyway so it didn't matter to me, but I just knew. Sure enough she pulled away and sailed all the way round the roundabout (270-exit 3) in the left lane without looking, checking or indicating. Then as she left the roundabout she moved into the right side lane without indicating again, and so there we were, back where we started. 40 kph and oblivious to the world around her. Comes a time after driving for a while where you can see them coming.

prospect

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

half the motorcyclist deaths were caused by motorists not seeing them even though they glanced/looked in the direction of the motorcyclist

Maybe the answer there is to teach motorcyclists to use lanes properly. After all, overtaking on the inside is illegal, and over taking on the outside at a junction is also illegal!

seamus

prospect wrote:

Maybe the answer there is to teach motorcyclists to use lanes properly. After all, overtaking on the inside is illegal, and over taking on the outside at a junction is also illegal!

The statistic says nothing about overtaking, it's about poor observation on the parts of other vehicles. But then we knew that already.

prospect

seamus wrote:

The statistic says nothing about overtaking, it's about poor observation on the parts of other vehicles. But then we knew that already.

Ok, but how many incidences of cars being hit in this situation are there? Much less i'd guess, and it has nothing to do with the physical size of a car over a motorbike.

I personally feel, that if motorbikes stayed in lane, and spend less time weaving in and out, and across lanes, then they would be less inclined to suffer these accidents.
I am not saying it is okay for a vehicle to turn without indicating, but I reckon the bike is equally to blame for bursting up on the white line.

I have often been in traffic, and two motorbikes have passed me at the same time, one on each side!!!

In my book,
1 lane = 1 Vehicle
You dont drive on the white line, you drive centred between the lines
Bus lanes are for buses and taxis
Hard shoulder, emergancy vehicles and beak downs

seamus

prospect wrote:

Ok, but how many incidences of cars being hit in this situation are there? Much less i'd guess, and it has nothing to do with the physical size of a car over a motorbike.

It has everything to do with the size of the vehicle. The majority of car/bike accidents occur when the car driver fails to "register" the motorcyclist and pulls out across his path.
It's all about how people observe and look. Most drivers when they look, are looking for something specific, usually a car, truck, truck or bus. This is a subconscious thing. Most of the time, a pedestrian or a motorcycle who enters the field of view will be noticed, but occasionally, whatever way the mind works, the driver sees them, but their existence just doesn't register as a hazard, and the driver does his manouver regardless.

I've done it myself long long ago and scared the **** out of myself. This is why running your lights all the time is recommended for most bikers. The lights add an unexpected thing into the field of view, and the driver is forced to do a double-take.

As Cap'n Midnight pointed out, the actual visibility of motorcyclists isn't in question (though it is important) - most accidents occur despite the fact that the other motorist did look at the motorcycle.

prospect

seamus wrote:

It has everything to do with the size of the vehicle....
.... other motorist did look at the motorcycle.

I see your point, and accept it.

This has happened to me also, a few times in around town.

BUT:

You have to ask yourself, and be honest here, usually the motorcyclist is somewhere he/she shouldn't be. Overtaking near a junction, crossing solid white lines, travelling up between lanes etc. etc.
So therefore, they should accept part of the blame.

In recent months I was joining a roundabout on the nangor road/fonthill road.
The left lane leads to another roundabout, which is where i was, and the right lane heads around the roundabout heading up to clondalkin, which is where a motorcycle courier was.

I proceed on to the left, and then swich to my right indicator, to go right at the next roundabout. Meanwhile, without any indication, the motorcycle has acellerated and tried to go around infront of me, while I am negotiating a roundabout, switching lanes and joining a new roundabout. And did he indicate? No.
So he has broken 5 laws, and what is the upshot, he starts waving his arms around at me when we nearly hit? **Blood boiling**

Now unless I am very much mistaken, motorcycles are supposed to obey the same rules of the road as cars, and yet a massive majority of them make them up as they go along, creating new lanes between lines of traffic, weaving in and around moving and stationary traffic etc. etc.
That above all else, as far as i am concerned, is the reason they get involved in accidents.

seamus

prospect wrote:

a motorcycle courier

Enough said
Couriers are not representative of the rest of us

prospect

seamus wrote:

Enough said
Couriers are not representative of the rest of us

Oh right, It's like that?
LOL

Capt'n Midnight

In the Ad they had the motorcyclist on the main road with a car on a side road to his left cutting across him to go to the far side. - Remember the old adds about a thumb at arms length blocking pedestrain/cyclist at x yards away. the roof / door supports on a car don't help - there are a few merge lanes I avoid because it's bloody impossible to see oncoming traffic at the merge angle.

Motorcyclist had right of way because:
- already crossing the junction , motorist was stopped
- was on the main road , motorist was on side road
- was going straight, motorist was turning
etc.

Macy

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

In the Ad they had the motorcyclist on the main road with a car on a side road to his left cutting across him to go to the far side. - Remember the old adds about a thumb at arms length blocking pedestrain/cyclist at x yards away. the roof / door supports on a car don't help - there are a few merge lanes I avoid because it's bloody impossible to see oncoming traffic at the merge angle.

Motorcyclist had right of way because:
- already crossing the junction , motorist was stopped
- was on the main road , motorist was on side road
- was going straight, motorist was turning
etc.

That's the ad though. Not necessarily saying that the stats are wrong or false, or they don't relate to cases such as above... however stuff like the drink driving "stats" and the way they were represented earlier in the week would make me sceptical of road safety organisation stats...

Shane Smith

AMurphy wrote:

Question, is it necessary to indicate if you are in a filtered turn-only lane,
If yes. What's the point, ur in a turning lane, what else can you do that's legal?.

As a proposed answer to your question, there could be -and usually is- PEDESTRIANS all over the place, is it THEIR business to read road signs meant for Motorists? I would indicated even at a filtered turn simply because upon a glance from Pedestrians they know exactly which direction I'm going (this sometimes prevents them making suicide runs in that direction...)

Just drive thru Dublin city, people think the roads & streets are theirs to use (probably cos there's so many people it just spills onto the road) and making any kind of a turn in a city like this without indicating is, in my opinion, negligent...

Macy

Shane Smith wrote:

As a proposed answer to your question, there could be -and usually is- PEDESTRIANS all over the place, is it THEIR business to read road signs meant for Motorists?

I would indicate in such a situation, however, if there are pedestrian lights it is THEIR business not to jay walk...

seamus

Shane Smith wrote:

As a proposed answer to your question, there could be -and usually is- PEDESTRIANS all over the place, is it THEIR business to read road signs meant for Motorists?

I would say that all road users, including pedestrians, have a duty to use the information available to them to make judgement calls. This includes road signage.

DubTony

prospect wrote:

I have often been in traffic, and two motorbikes have passed me at the same time, one on each side!!! .......

...... You dont drive on the white line, .......

I believe they call this "filtering"; whatever the f*ck that is. I call it stupidity. By all means pass me when I'm moving. I'll even make room for you. But when traffic is stopped? Now that's ..... ah let's not get into all that ..... again

AMurphy

Shane Smith wrote:

....PEDESTRIANS all over the place, ......

..... and making any kind of a turn in a city like this without indicating is, in my opinion, negligent...

Peds X-ing, forgot about them. However, not many of them wandering about the highways and expressways here, any more than there on the M-50.

Yeah, that's close quarter city driving, eg Downtown San Francisco, when I might be inclined to use one.

However, peds here "wandering" as you indicate are very likely to get a ticket or two also, and they go against your driving lisc. points collection, assuming you have a lisc. Same for boat and bicyle offences.

As for indicating while stopped in a turn-only lane; The unwritten norm that has developed about here is, indicate when making a "U" turn only. Thus, we know you are making a "U" turn and best to keep back jic you need room to back-up.

Balfa

AMurphy wrote:

Peds X-ing, forgot about them. However, not many of them wandering about the highways and expressways here, any more than there on the M-50.

Not many filtered left turn lanes on them either :P

Yes, you must indicate when you're in a filtered turn lane, because it's only obvious to drivers going the same direction as you which lane is for what. If someone else in the oncoming direction is waiting to turn left across the path of your direction, it can be hard to see what lane you're in especially at night, and even whether or not that lane is left-only. So if you don't indicate they assume you're going straight and wait until it's clear to make their left turn. Then you turn left in front of them and they curse and swear at you (this happens to me a lot) cos they could have got across if you were indicating.

Same with someone going straight across from your right to your left. They could do it if they knew you were slowing down to turn, but wouldn't chance it if they thought you were just zooming straight through. Lots of other situations too. Like i said, there are far too many random situations and road users to just not use your indicator. You can NEVER account for everything. You've shown a fine example of not thinking of all other road users in your situation right there. So just use them all the time.

If you're doing a U-turn, especially in a large unwiedly vehichle, use your hazard lights to indicate that you're doing an unsual manouvre, and everyone will leave you plenty of space. Go slow and be prepared for unusual things happen during your unusual manouvre.

1

dahamsta wrote:

It's the in Dublin part I have trouble with seamus. If you played your cards right you'd actually get rid of me quicker, I seem get lost every second time just trying to get out!

adam

Don't get me started..... One sign post saying "Place" that way... little further up major junction.. no more sign posts... I swear the do it to keep you driving around the place....


Anyway... whats worse than not using you indicators are using them with the God given right card.

"Hi I have applied my indicators so I am now going to pull out in front of you. Please apply your brakes so that you don't run into me. Thanks."

As far as I am aware its an "indication" of what you would like to do. Not a god given right to do so. This applies to lane switching situations. Obviously.

Capt'n Midnight

Balfa wrote:

If you're doing a U-turn, especially in a large unwiedly vehichle, use your hazard lights to indicate that you're doing an unsual manouvre, and everyone will leave you plenty of space. Go slow and be prepared for unusual things happen during your unusual manouvre.

Huh ??

I see someone with Hazards in the inside lane and the overtaking lane is empty and the way ahead is clear I'll overtake them since I'd assume they are stopping because of a problem. If they turn into my lane without indicating... People don't give you plenty of space when you use hazards because they are't used correctly here. Hazard warning lights are for double parking, Taxis also use them as indicators/brake lights - one light for all purposes to warn people they will slow down / speed up / turn / jam on / or just aren't looking because they are fiddling with the meter.


IMHO It's better to be in the middle of two lanes with one set of indicators on as that's unabmiguous. If you have to use Hazards then wait until you are in the middle of the turn so people can see what's going on.

Shane Smith

AMurphy wrote:

However, peds here "wandering" as you indicate are very likely to get a ticket or two also, and they go against your driving lisc. points collection, assuming you have a lisc. Same for boat and bicyle offences.

Ha! That'd NEVER happen here!!!! I can imagine the Gardai out in force chasing thousands of people down O Connell Street waving a ticket! In an ideal "Ireland" maybe but the gas thing is we all do it when we're not driving. Ye just stroll around town and when u come to a large street ye just think "ah the cars'll stop..they always stop...they have to stop..."

If only...

AMurphy

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Huh ??

I see someone with Hazards in the inside lane and the overtaking lane is empty and the way ahead is clear I'll overtake them since I'd assume they are stopping because of a problem. ......

IMHO It's better to be in the middle of two lanes with one set of indicators on as that's unabmiguous. If you have to use Hazards then wait until you are in the middle of the turn so people can see what's going on.

That would be the situation here also. emergency flashers, most would think you've blown the engine and drive around you.

A longer/larger truck might sit on the line or in both lanes, were there 2 turnging lanes.

AMurphy

Shane Smith wrote:

Ha! That'd NEVER happen here!!!! I can imagine the Gardai out in force chasing thousands of people down O Connell Street waving a ticket! In an ideal "Ireland" maybe but the gas thing is we all do it when we're not driving. Ye just stroll around town and when u come to a large street ye just think "ah the cars'll stop..they always stop...they have to stop..."

If only...

Just like downtown Shanghai. A critical mass gathers on the kerb on both sides, then like a flock of birds, or a school of fish, they all go at once, brining 2,3,4 lanes of traffic to a halt, until everyone is across.

AMurphy

Balfa wrote:

.....
If someone else in the oncoming direction is waiting to turn left across the path of your direction, it can be hard to see what lane you're in especially at night, and even whether or not that lane is left-only. So if you don't indicate they assume you're going straight and wait until it's clear to make their left turn. Then you turn left in front of them and they curse and swear at you (this happens to me a lot) cos they could have got across if you were indicating.

Same with someone going straight across from your right to your left. They could do it if they knew you were slowing down to turn, but wouldn't chance it if they thought you were just zooming straight through.

Are we driving LHD or RHD in the above.
Eitehr way, I cannot see a situation where I'd want to pull out short in front of something just because they had their indicator on... they could be turning into a petrol pump just to my left side, not into the sideroad I'm trying to get out of. ( I don't trust people and indicators much). I'd wait for them to slow down first.

Very few instances here where you'd be turning across behind someone at a light, etc. you'd cross in front so as the traffic is not cutting through other traffic. Try go behind them and they and they curse and swear at you or the guy in the second car will drive into you.

Balfa wrote:

.....

So just use them all the time.

I'll try, I promise... but they make so much goddam noise....

Balfa

AMurphy wrote:

Are we driving LHD or RHD in the above.
Eitehr way, I cannot see a situation where I'd want to pull out short in front of something just because they had their indicator on... they could be turning into a petrol pump just to my left side, not into the sideroad I'm trying to get out of. ( I don't trust people and indicators much). I'd wait for them to slow down first.

My examples were considering LHD. If someone's turning into the premesis just beyond your side street, then they're not going to be going the speed limit by the time they reach the side street, are they? So pulling out in front of them is fine. None of this is really about safety, it's more about convenience for other road users. On a typical american surface street where cars are doing 40mph, there's no danger in pulling out in front of them unless they're right on top of you. It might inconvenience them (they have to brake - god help you if you make me have to brake ) if you pull out in front and don't get up to speed quickly enough, but if they have their indicators on, either they're about to slow down anyway to turn, or they're idiots who deserve to be inconvenienced. That's how i look at it

Very few instances here where you'd be turning across behind someone at a light, etc. you'd cross in front so as the traffic is not cutting through other traffic. Try go behind them and they and they curse and swear at you or the guy in the second car will drive into you.

I don't really understand what you're saying! Help me out.

AMurphy

Hadn't observed yout TX address.

Yeah, if someone was turning into something just beyond my exit, they could still be going pretty fast, and if they had their ind on as they approached from my left, I'd not assme they were turning into the sidestreet I was exiting, just cause they had an ind on. I'd wait for them to slow and show signs were actually intending to turn into the street I was leaving. Mainly, watch the direction of the wheels.
I'd not pull out in front of something that is less than about 2~3 seconds away and I had a clear and unobstructed exit, no matter what the speed... cars do not tend to stop about here, so it would be very unwise to pull out and expect them to stop. Cars do not expect to stop here, so if you want to get "T" boned or blasted off the road, pull out across the cross traffic and stop.
........

I'm sure it is the same at Left turning lanes in TX. ie, cars do not loop around behind each other, a common practice in ROI, the left turning car from the oncoming lane passes to your right side (it would pass to your left if you do the loop around behind them). So if i'm in a left turning lane, there is either no (oncoming) lane directly ahead of me or it is also a L turning lane and thus not a problem.
If there is no specific left turning lane, I indicate, not necessarily to let the car ahead know I want to turn, because that will pass unobstructed to my right anyway, but the car approaching from behind.. forget I'm not moving and run over me.

Balfa

Ah, i see. yeah, the irish arse-to-arse right-turn thing. It makes sense there, but in america it makes more sense to cross in front of one another because junctions are usually fifteen times the size over here

But the indicating is for the benefit of the fella coming towards you aswell because, like i said, it's not always easy to tell that you're actually in the turning lane and he might think you were going straight and wait for you if you're not indicating.

I hope you've been counting how many times you've indicated since promising to try

Bard

Enduro wrote:

Given that its a legal requirement for you to use your indicators,...

Is it though? I thought it was just common courtesy - the recommended course of action by the rules of the road and not actually a legal requirement.

Humpty D

And why do taxi drivers use their hazard lights when they pull in? An indicator would suffice, and also be more useful to let the driver behind knwo what the hell they're doing - hazrad lishg tare only supposed to be used in a "hazard" - pulling in doesn't exactly qualify. Taxi drivers are vermin.

Most people haven't got clue how to signal on roundabouts either.

Capt'n Midnight

AMurphy wrote:

I'll try, I promise... but they make so much goddam noise....

Yeah mine made more noise on the way into work last week. So I went to a motor factor and bought a new bulb. I dislike silent indicators. I also like when there are two lights on the dash for indicators rather than just one.

AMurphy

Balfa wrote:

.......

I hope you've been counting how many times you've indicated since promising to try

Even at small junctions about here, Irish sized ones. And I read somewhere it was becoming popular in ROI in some places/junctions at least, which now means you'd be totally confused, like people meeting in a narrow corridor, each correcting the situation by making the same wrong move, until on e decides, the best move, is to stay stopped. (Or if it is a fairly sizeable woman, grab her Ceili style and swing about her)

Like Dreyfus opens in the Pink Panther, "Every day in every way I'm getting better and better"....... where's that idiot Clouseau.