provisional license

jhegarty

commited wrote:

And you can practice with a fully qualified driver with you. If you have no fully qualified driver available, then you can pay for lessons like the rest of us.


Agree on both points.

how man lessons should you have in the 12 months you are waiting for your test... and by the way you just paid €4,500 for your insurance that year too....

Nuttzz

Both my parents got their driving licences without doing any test, my mother had a "complete" full licence, she was licenced to drive motorbike and HGV's despite never driving one. So if I had of applied for my provisional HGV licence years ago my mother could have could have been my "qualified" driver.

/edit: the law has since changed and she doesnt have a hgv licence anymore

Simple solutions that I see would be to replace a useless subject like religion in our schools and replace it with driver education, and make sitting your test a part of the leaving cert.

whippet

to the OP, if your girlfriend want's to go to mcdonalds she should walk, bus, taxi or a lift ... or if she really wants to drive .. pass the test. My 15 year old cousin would love to be able to drive to school, but I don't her him complaining that it is a stupid law that requires him to have a license to drive.

To be in a position to drive unaccompanied needs to be earned and you have to prove that you are capable of doing it, there are too many dangers and lives at risk by incompetant drivers.

The amount you spend on driving lessons is reflected on how good a driver you are and how quickly you learn, whereby huge initial insurnace premiums (wrightly or wrongly) are a reflection of the risk that is associated with a driver who has not shown the competancy of passing a simple driving test.

Driving should be seen as an honour not a right.

OMcGovern

I think it's madness that someone can drive to their driving test.... completely fail it... showing that they're still not ready to drive competantly on our roads.
Then they are entitled to drive their car home........

Tis madness I say.... madness.

What about old people who cling on to their licenses until their eyesight fails ?
Do you reckon their should be a driver retest at age 65, 70, 75 etc ?
Or are we tolerating slow, awkward, and mildly dangerous old drivers for humane reasons, rather than safety reasons ?

regards,
Owen

thatkindofgirl

Nuttzz wrote:

mmmm not every learner driver is a kid...I have a 35 year old friend who is just learning to drive. His 70 year old mother will be a great help to him when he's out driving...

Hire a driving instructor then. It's not really that complicated. :rolleyes:

koneko

The whole system needs an overhaul, but that's such a monumentous task it's unlikely to ever happen.

The system works much better in other European countries, like Holland. You *have to* clock up a certain amount of hours with instructors, and then you do your test (short waiting times). Then when you pass, you're allowed to drive. The only reason people here drive on their own is because the waiting times are so incredible (a year?!?!). Then again there are those that take advantage and drive on a provisional for years. When I went in for my test, there was a middle-aged woman there who had been driving for 11 years, and was going in for her test now - she had failed multiple times before (she didn't get to do her test that time because of a technicality, didn't have her L-plates up or a light wasn't working, or something equally stupid she should have checked before coming in, but she couldn't possibly have cared less)..

Nuttzz

thatkindofgirl wrote:

Hire a driving instructor then. It's not really that complicated. :rolleyes:

he has, and completed his 10 lessons and knows the basics on how to drive.

do you sugguest that he brings his driving instructor on his daily commute too :eek: :rolleyes:

Alun

Nuttzz wrote:

he has, and completed his 10 lessons and knows the basics on how to drive.

do you sugguest that he brings his driving instructor on his daily commute too :eek: :rolleyes:

No, he should do what everyone else should do in his circumstances and take the bus / train / bicycle or whatever. Merely buying a car doesn't infer some unalienable right to drive it on the public roads.

OMcGovern

Nuttzz wrote:

he has, and completed his 10 lessons and knows the basics on how to drive.

No... he knows the basics of how to control a car.
That's nothing to do with lane discipline, safe overtaking, judgement of hazards, rain, snow and night driving. You get a sixth sense on predicting other drivers behaviours after a while.... essential when they don't signal properly eg. taxi drivers.

Nuttzz

Alun wrote:

Merely buying a car doesn't infer some unalienable right to drive it on the public roads.

While I agree, the system isnt set up like that, if you have the money to buy a car, insure & tax it you can do what ever you want on the roads at the moment

No... he knows the basics of how to control a car.
That's nothing to do with lane discipline, safe overtaking, judgement of hazards, rain, snow and night driving. You get a sixth sense on predicting other drivers behaviours after a while.... essential when they don't signal properly eg. taxi drivers.

and he isnt going to learn any of these by leaving his car sitting in the driveway either.

I have been driving 15+ years and I can count on one hand how many times I have driven in snow.

Alun

Nuttzz wrote:

While I agree, the system isnt set up like that, if you have the money to buy a car, insure & tax it you can do what ever you want on the roads at the moment

Au contraire ... the system is such that what he's doing is illegal, it just isn't enforced like so many laws in this country.

That however doesn't however give you, your mate, or anyone else for that matter carte blanche to just ignore it. This isn't a law designed just to irritate and annoy people, you know, it's there to protect other road users from incompetent idiots. And yes, I know that there are plenty of incompetent idiots out there with full licences, but again we come back to the subject of enforcement of the law. In a properly policed system these people would be off the roads in the blink of an eye, but they aren't.

Alun

Nuttzz wrote:

and he isnt going to learn any of these by leaving his car sitting in the driveway either. .

And how, pray, will he learn these by driving on his own with no-one to point out his mistakes? That's what driving schools are for.

Nuttzz

system was the wrong choice of words on my part, perhaps situation would have been better.

It is all down to enforcement, however as I stated eariler in the thread we should try and introduce driver education into the schools and prevent situations where we have unqualified drivers driving our streets.

With the current situation of long waiting times for tests etc it is sad but no surprising that people flout the law

steviec

Alun wrote:

And how, pray, will he learn these by driving on his own with no-one to point out his mistakes? That's what driving schools are for.

So your saying the best way for someone to learn to drive is to book the test now, wait about 45 weeks without setting foot in a car, then book lots of lessons for the weeks leading up to the test(unless your a millionaire and can afford a whole year of lessons), then go into the test with no experience whatsoever of driving on their own without being told what to do constantly? Is that how you went into your test?

Alun

steviec wrote:

So your saying the best way for someone to learn to drive is to book the test now, wait about 45 weeks without setting foot in a car, then book lots of lessons for the weeks leading up to the test(unless your a millionaire and can afford a whole year of lessons), then go into the test with no experience whatsoever of driving on their own without being told what to do constantly?

I'm not saying anything of the sort. How you deal with the waiting time for the test is entirely up to you, but you could, say, have a few lessons to begin with to get the basics right, drive as regularly as you can with a qualified driver, possibly with the odd lesson in between until you get your test date when you would resume regular lessons. The incompetence of the government in dealing with the waiting list problem is no excuse to break the law.

And why is "driving on your own without being told what to do all the time" a prerequisite for passing a test? Pretty much every country in the civilized world operates system like that, why should we be any different?

Is that how you went into your test?

No, I passed mine 31 years ago in the UK. I took my first lesson on my 17th birthday, and passed (first time) 3 months later. Took regular lessons during this time (once a week) and drove my parents' car (with one of them in it) in the meantime.

Citizen_Erased

This whole question was sparked because somebody with a provisional license wanted to take the car to the shop or a party.

That is the problem, you want to dive in too soon and get in on the driving scene too soon. Its like this , until you get your full license the car to you is only for learning , it is not a utility to you until you have passed your test. So until then , the only reason you should be driving a car is on a educational basis anyway. Youve last without the car up until then and your going to have to for what ever time it takes to earn your license.
Would you feel happy that as soom as someone got their students pilots license , they flew you to say, France. The might have got no air time , but they can still do it.

Alun

Well said. Here the order of events seems to be 1) Buy car 2) Drive 3) Take test as opposed to the rest of the world where it's 1) Learn to drive 2) Take test 3) Buy car.

whippet

'So your saying the best way for someone to learn to drive is to book the test now, wait about 45 weeks without setting foot in a car, then book lots of lessons for the weeks leading up to the test(unless your a millionaire and can afford a whole year of lessons), then go into the test with no experience whatsoever of driving on their own without being told what to do constantly? Is that how you went into your test?'

The provisional license is designed to allow un-licensed drivers drive for the purpose of learning. Do what myself and most of my peers did ... get provisional license, do about 5-10 lessons, get insured on mammy's or daddy's car. Get a little experience on saturdays when mammy lets you drive home from shops, or daddy gives you a lesson. Then when the test comes around .. a few more lessons and a pre-test or two and bob's your uncle you then can drive on your own should you pass.

The excuse of can't afford insurance or a lesson or car or any combination of the three dosn't wash with me. Capitalism is a reality and like it or hate it those with more money can afford more or better access to insurance, cars, lessons etc ... but everyone must sit the same test and adhere to the laws of the land regarding provisional licenses.

lilulila

Nuttzz wrote:

Simple solutions that I see would be to replace a useless subject like religion in our schools and replace it with driver education, and make sitting your test a part of the leaving cert.

I agree driving is a skill that 90% of the country require. It should be introced onto the schools. Also they could have classes which expand on hazzards like the ignition course. I did the ignition course last thursday and it really opened my eyes.

Citizen_Erased

You seem to have missed my point , what I was saying is yes , you may drive the car with just a qualified driver all you want , but not to think that the car is a tool for you to use for yourself eg going to clubs etc until you yourself are a qualified driver.

commited

dawballz wrote:

What is your definition of a qualified driver?
My father has been driving for I don't know how many years(a lot), he has a full license but never did a test. I know plenty of others who are in the same boat.

A new driver is a cautious one imo.
When I got my bike, for the first few months, I was very nervous, which is a good thing imo.
A "qualified" driver could put me under pressure. I know for sure that if my father was in the seat beside me while I was driving, I wouldn't be very happy.
He just wouldn't have the patience.

A qualified driver is a driving instructor or a responsible full license holder.
And you say a new driver is cautious - when you really mean nervous (as shown in the next line), thus prone to panic and rash decisions which could result in an accident.
A qualified driver should never put you under pressure - if they do, then you should refuse to drive with them.

jhegarty wrote:

how man lessons should you have in the 12 months you are waiting for your test... and by the way you just paid €4,500 for your insurance that year too....

You shouldnt learn how to drive until you can afford the necessary teaching then. You dont need to pay insurance for a driving school as they provide it. Thus the required experience is gained in the correct manner and you save money on car insurance. If every other person in every other European country does the same - why cant you?

Nuttzz wrote:

he has, and completed his 10 lessons and knows the basics on how to drive.

do you sugguest that he brings his driving instructor on his daily commute too :eek: :rolleyes:

How did he manage for the last 15 or so years of work then? Did he get lifts off his 70year old mum?
Or did he use public transport?

In my opinion - driving is a privaledge, not a right and if you cant obey the basic rules & laws of the roads then you shouldnt be on them.

Nuttzz wrote:

While I agree, the system isnt set up like that, if you have the money to buy a car, insure & tax it you can do what ever you want on the roads at the moment

No not at all - the law states that this is PRECISELY what you cannot do.
Although apparently it's ok to have your provisional for 2 years, then go out and buy a car and drive unaccompanied without ever having driven before. What a silly silly law. Only in Ireland.

Nuttzz wrote:

and he isnt going to learn any of these by leaving his car sitting in the driveway either.

That's what driving schools are for.

steviec wrote:

So your saying the best way for someone to learn to drive is to book the test now, wait about 45 weeks without setting foot in a car, then book lots of lessons for the weeks leading up to the test(unless your a millionaire and can afford a whole year of lessons), then go into the test with no experience whatsoever of driving on their own without being told what to do constantly? Is that how you went into your test?

Where did he say that? I agree that 45weeks is a ridiculous wait for a test and puts certain financial limitations on the amount of time you can be formally taught, but intensive teaching is never the answer.

eth0_

When our poxy, amateur government get the finger out and reduce the test waiting time to something acceptable (like <1 month), maybe then i'll give a **** about driving unaccompanied. I've not got my full licence yet (my test date isn't til next JANUARY!), but along with having a weekly lesson, I drive my Dad's car on my own when i'm at home, just into town, on routes i'm familiar with, and I don't drive on the motorway! I do realise i'm probably the exception to the rule in being cautious like this.

The way I see it, you need to have some experience of driving alone before you do your test to build your confidence. You can't be wrapped in cotton wool by having mummy or daddy beside you all the time.

commited

eth0_ wrote:

When our poxy, amateur government get the finger out and reduce the test waiting time to something acceptable (like <1 month), maybe then i'll give a **** about driving unaccompanied.

I agree - I had to wait 10 months for my test. If you want a test quicker, ring your test centre weekly - they have cancellations. I was told this after I passed :rolleyes:

eth0_ wrote:

I've not got my full licence yet (my test date isn't til next JANUARY!), but along with having a weekly lesson, I drive my Dad's car on my own when i'm at home, just into town, on routes i'm familiar with, and I don't drive on the motorway! I do realise i'm probably the exception to the rule in being cautious like this.

You're being "cautious" yet you are still breaking the law?

eth0_ wrote:

The way I see it, you need to have some experience of driving alone before you do your test to build your confidence. You can't be wrapped in cotton wool by having mummy or daddy beside you all the time.

I disagree. If every other European country doesnt need to do this and has far better drivers than Ireland (Italy & Spain being the exceptions), why do we have to be the exception? It's about time the government grew some balls and came down hard on provisional drivers and axed the 2nd Provisional law.

30-6shooter

The only way you can get rid of the provisional set-up, is if people can do their few lessons and then book their tests guarenteed a test within a month. And a resit in another month if failedthe 1st time.

that way they can have their full license and their car sorted out in a relatively quick time period. Say 3 months would do it for instance.

Its unfair if someone were to decide to buy a car and then couldnt drive it without having a full license, and to get the license thye have to wait nearly a fookin year to get the chance of getting the license. so until the waiting times are slashed to a month, the provisional set-up will be here, and rightly so in out current fook up of a system

eth0_

What was all the talk of bringing in external driving testers? Has that fallen by the wayside?

Can there really be so many people applying to do their test that the waiting list is a year in some counties, or is it just testers failing people so they'll have to resit and therefore pay more money to the government?

L5

its ridiculous, i applied in november, ill be lucky if im tested before september.
All that time you pick up bad habits driving (if you cant afford to pay for lessons every week).
Its a national disgrace the length of time it takes to get a test.

commited

30-6shooter wrote:

Its unfair if someone were to decide to buy a car and then couldnt drive it without having a full license, and to get the license thye have to wait nearly a fookin year to get the chance of getting the license. so until the waiting times are slashed to a month, the provisional set-up will be here, and rightly so in out current fook up of a system

They should decide to buy a car after they get their full license surely?
It's not like it's a surprise now that the waiting times are as long as they are. Everyone knows. Thus - book a test and then abide by the law until you pass your test and then buy your car.

Nuttzz

eth0_ wrote:

What was all the talk of bringing in external driving testers? Has that fallen by the wayside?

Can there really be so many people applying to do their test that the waiting list is a year in some counties, or is it just testers failing people so they'll have to resit and therefore pay more money to the government?

their union had a tissy, promising strike action if externals were brought in.

30-6shooter

its ridiculous, i applied in november, ill be lucky if im tested before september.

Thats the same as me. I applied late Oct/early Nov, and i dont expect to get it till August or so. I`d love to get it during the summer, before going back to college as i could fit more lessons in during the summer than when im bk at college.

My 2nd provisional isnt up until Sept`06, so im not too worried. Even if i fail, i still have another year to get me full license, but i want it as soon as possible,, Fookin country :mad:

yelselseivad

If the driving test wait time was reduced to a reasonable time none of these posts would be necessary. My son is putting me under considerable pressure to allow him to drive unaccompanied - he applied for his test months ago there's a 56 week wait - and 'all' his friends are driving on their own. I'm horrified as one of them has only had 2 lessons. It seems to be the norm to just get insured and jump into a car - I'm seen as the mean mommy as I won't let him and it's becoming increasingly difficult as I know myself that he's a competent driver and would no doubt pass his test in the morning. I don't know how I'll manage to keep saying no for another 6 months. It would be so much easier to give him the keys and let him do some of the runs I have to do every day with the little ones as well.
Just wondering, why aren't people driving with L-plates on their first licence stopped and charged as I thought it was against the law. Are they also covered by insurance?