Pistol Licence Application

Ammoman

Hi ,

I applied for my pistol licence but have got word back that it has been refused . Has anyone else been refused a licence lately ? I found this hard to beleive because I already own a number of firearms and have a safe and alarms fitted . The reason given was that I didnt have anywhere to shoot it ??? and in the same breath I was told that there was no approved range in the republic of Ireland , so what do we do now , You have to be a member of a club , but there are no approved clubs . Is this the loop hole that the DOJ have been looking for ?

macnas

Sounds familiar alright, check your PMs.

civdef

Hmm, getting worried now....

What's to stop someone shooting on their own land or that on which they have permission, for example?

Sparks

A body which combines the two

There is a saying however - "Never attribute to malice that which is adaquately explained by ignorance"
Remember, gardai get no training for the licencing job, the media is screaming that pistols are causing huge amounts of gun crime, and he's probably got no idea of what target shooting is like. There's no direction on where the law's going from head office or the DoJ, but he know's it's his neck on the block if he messes up. So recalitrance and intransigence are to be expected. Just keep trying, but don't be belligerent about it. Bring photos of the range, show him one of the bullseye targets you'll be using (if they're humanoid silhouettes, maybe not), show him the details of the gun, and so on.

civdef

Two problems,

They say there are no approved ranges. There is no legislation requiring "approval" for ranges (when you're shooting a firearm that is licenced to you).

When clubs ask about this mythical "approval" they get landed with all sorts of onerous requirements. The goalposts seem to be moving on this.

Sparks

A body which combines the two

They say there are no approved ranges.

If it is "they" and not just one or two supers who aren't adaquately trained, then yes, that's a problem. I'm just not sure that's where we are yet.

jaycee

If it is "they" and not just one or two supers who aren't adaquately trained, then yes, that's a problem. I'm just not sure that's where we are yet.

It's a major problem if you live in their area ..

Ammoman

A body which combines the two

civdef wrote:

They say there are no approved ranges. There is no legislation requiring "approval" for ranges (when you're shooting a firearm that is licenced to you).

I dont know anything about the need for approval of ranges , but if there are no approved ranges , what happens to all the pistols granted on permissions given by say the midlands club , when the licences are due for renewal , the owners cannot justify using the pistols on that range because 1. its not open yet & 2. its not approved .

Will they loose their pistols ?

Ammoman

A body which combines the two

civdef wrote:

Hmm, getting worried now....

What's to stop someone shooting on their own land or that on which they have permission, for example?

I tried that one as well , they said that I would need a safe place to use a pistol and that the only safe place would be a pistol range !

I feel that they are looking for a way to stop issuing licences , and this approval thing might be it ?

Ammoman

A body which combines the two

jaycee wrote:

It's a major problem if you live in their area ..

You said it ! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Sparks

A body which combines the two

I don't think so ammoman, if they were, they'd just include an amendment to the Firearms Act in the CJB to say that the Minister can order that certain firearms aren't licencable. Of course, that's exactly what we did hear from him a while ago...

JC, true 'nuff, but if it's just one man, you can work on bringing him around. You shouldn't have to, it's true, but then again, he shouldn't have to do a job he's not trained for and where his neck's on the line if he makes a mistake. Crappy situation for both sides, in other words.

Ammoman

A body which combines the two

Sparks wrote:

I don't think so ammoman, if they were, they'd just include an amendment to the Firearms Act in the CJB to say that the Minister can order that certain firearms aren't licencable. Of course, that's exactly what we did hear from him a while ago .

But it would take them longer to get it put through the CJB , this way they can stop issuing licences now . Its just like the Temporary custodial Order that should have lasted 6 months , that turned into 34 years . If they wanted to take in the pistols they could have included it in one of the amendmants to the firearms act during that time , but they didnt !!! :mad:

Sparks

A body which combines the two

But if they didn't want anyone to have them, they'd just refuse to licence anyone for them. Instead we've had 120 people get pistols at the last count in december and probably twice that by now. I've been told myself that I'll have no problem with getting my .22 or air pistol by the local lad here, so I don't think there's an edict from on high involved. I mean, if the DoJ wanted to ban them, they'd be a bit more direct about it really.

Ammoman

A body which combines the two

When were you told that , i was told late 2004 that my local garda had no problem issuing a pistol licence to me , but when i applied , it has been refused , there has definitely been a change in proceedure since Jan / feb of this year and from my experiance its not a good change !

Ammoman

A body which combines the two

Sparks wrote:

But if they didn't want anyone to have them, they'd just refuse to licence anyone for them. Instead we've had 120 people get pistols at the last count in december and probably twice that by now. I've been told myself that I'll have no problem with getting my .22 or air pistol by the local lad here, so I don't think there's an edict from on high involved. I mean, if the DoJ wanted to ban them, they'd be a bit more direct about it really.

The DOJ have never been DIRECT about anything , 34 years on a 6 month order , thats definitely not direct .As far as I know there are in excess of 300 pistols out there , I'm not sure if any have been licenced recently but since this thing about Approved ranges has come up the frequency of licences being approved has slowed down . If this is not a trend , and i hope that it isn't , what are they up to ? The renewal of licences is soon and club letters dont have to be accepted as a reason to have a pistol because , no ranges are approved . It might happen , hopefully not , but it might , There are organisations out there that dont want anyone to own or have access to a firearm of any discription , and as a number of small "i'm all right jack " groups that organise shooting here in Ireland we wont stand a chance if they decide to hit Ireland next . We need to get together , i dont know how , but we do ,and put our legitimate position forward to keep our firearms and sport alive , and anyone out there that doesnt see this comming, needs to wake up .

Sparks

A body which combines the two

Ammoman wrote:

The DOJ have never been DIRECT about anything , 34 years on a 6 month order , thats definitely not direct .

I didn't say they weren't cynical or very knowlegable in the technicalities! Take the TCO for example - it lasted six months and then it ended. Nothing illegal about it. However, the licence renewal date fell in the middle of the six months, so when everyone went to get the pistols back after the TCO, they had to get their new licences first - and at that point, the policy of not issuing those licences had been announced. So the pistols weren't actually confiscated, not technically - they were still owned by the same people - but since you had no licence, the gardai couldn't legally hand them over. Cynical, yes. Pernickity, yes. Daft as a mad brush, yes. But not illegal. That's what I'd be expecting to see now if the DoJ and Gardai had some sort of actual plan out there to prevent licencing pistols. Frankly I don't think we actually warrant that much attention in their eyes. Maybe back in '72, with the country within spitting distance of open war with the UK, but today?

As far as I know there are in excess of 300 pistols out there

Wouldn't surprise me. If anything, I'd expect slightly higher than that number.

I'm not sure if any have been licenced recently but since this thing about Approved ranges has come up the frequency of licences being approved has slowed down . If this is not a trend , and i hope that it isn't , what are they up to ? The renewal of licences is soon and club letters dont have to be accepted as a reason to have a pistol because , no ranges are approved . It might happen , hopefully not , but it might

True. Thing is, if it did happen there's an upside and a downside. The upside is that the Peace Process is underway so there's no National Security reason there to whack us with if we want to pursue their return. The downside is that this government has shown that it has no problem legislating around High Court and Supreme Court decisions when it wants to. We might have to wait for a more favourable climate under a government with less of a majority (and thus a greater need to actually cooperate rather than pursue an agenda irregardless of public opinion).

There are organisations out there that dont want anyone to own or have access to a firearm of any discription

Not so much in Ireland though. IANSA have a group here, but noone's heard hide nor hair of them since the initial announcement, there isn't an equivalent to the GCN or Mothers Against Guns (and in fact, MAG are pretty much on our side, they're worried about gun crime not guns per se), and the only group that comes close is the Anti-Blood Sports group. And the NARGC and the sporting groups are a fairly solid match for them.

and as a number of small "i'm all right jack " groups that organise shooting here in Ireland we wont stand a chance if they decide to hit Ireland next . We need to get together , i dont know how , but we do ,and put our legitimate position forward to keep our firearms and sport alive , and anyone out there that doesnt see this comming, needs to wake up .

Like I've said a hundred times, if you want a single unified political lobbying group, good, but it must be independent of the shooting bodies, and it must be directly answerable to the members, open and transparent. It should also have an agenda defined by the members. None of this FLAG malarky where only a few friends of the Committee get to know what's happening, but everyone has to pay and they claim to speak on behalf of everyone.

jaycee

the frequency of licences being approved has slowed down

There may be a simple explanation for this ..

Licences expire at the end of july , so it's not the smartest time to get a new licence .Another potential reason for a slow down in licences may be that others (Like myself) have decided to hold off on any new purchases until the dust settles a little and hopefully there is more clarity with regard to what we may ..or may not licence.

I do believe there is a degree of "send the fool further " going on..
It's always been there and it won't vanish overnight.

In the absence of clear decisions and direction this sort of attitude is understandable to a degree , Who want's to put their head on the block .?

On the other hand we may be suffering from a little collective paronia,
not every silver lining ..has a cloud.. :rolleyes:

Sparks

A body which combines the two

Changed the poll choices to make it a little more fine-grained.

Ammoman

A body which combines the two

jaycee wrote:

There may be a simple explanation for this ..

Licences expire at the end of july , so it's not the smartest time to get a new licence .Another potential reason for a slow down in licences may be that others (Like myself) have decided to hold off on any new purchases until the dust settles a little and hopefully there is more clarity with regard to what we may ..or may not licence.

I disagree , If they didnt want to issue a licence until after ther renewal date , thats one thing , but a Refusal is another . They can approve the licence and hold it but a refusal is final .

[/QUOTE]I do believe there is a degree of "send the fool further " going on..
It's always been there and it won't vanish overnight.[/QUOTE]

Sorry I have lost you here " Send the Fool Further " ?



[/QUOTE]On the other hand we may be suffering from a little collective paronia,
not every silver lining ..has a cloud.. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]


Unfortunately parania is sometimes reality.... :eek:

jaycee

I disagree , If they didnt want to issue a licence until after ther renewal date , thats one thing , but a Refusal is another . They can approve the licence and hold it but a refusal is final .

I think you misunderstood me...

I meant that I and others wouldn't bother applying and paying for a licence now,
that is going to expire and therefore need paying for again in another few weeks.

I do believe there is a degree of "send the fool further " going on..
It's always been there and it won't vanish overnight.[/QUOTE]

Sorry I have lost you here " Send the Fool Further " ?[/QUOTE]

Sorry..It's an expression that describes the way people are sometimes "Stalled" by bouncing them from one department (Or whatever ) to another.
Each person in turn simply decides to "Send the fool further" so no decision is ever arrived at and the victim is just going round in circles.

Ammoman

A body which combines the two

jaycee wrote:

I think you misunderstood me...

I do believe there is a degree of "send the fool further " going on..
It's always been there and it won't vanish overnight.

Sorry I have lost you here " Send the Fool Further " ?[/QUOTE]

Sorry..It's an expression that describes the way people are sometimes "Stalled" by bouncing them from one department (Or whatever ) to another.
Each person in turn simply decides to "Send the fool further" so no decision is ever arrived at and the victim is just going round in circles.[/QUOTE]


I wish that was the case for me but I didnt get stalled , the Licence was refused so a decision was made . This causes a number of problems , I cannot appeal this decision , it effects my application to join some clubs , I cannot take part in my chosen sport , and i am not sure if this refusal goes on record against me in the Park ? I am disgusted at my local superintendant for this , i am of good standing and have not been involved in crime , so being squeaky clean doesnt mean anything to the Gardai , maybe its true , Crime does pay !!! I am considering legal action against the gardai as i have fulfilled all their requirements and have been refused a licence based , not on legal grounds but on a personal ideal of the superintendant that he fully knows cannot be acheived . ie. being a member of an approved range ... . :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Sparks

A body which combines the two

Ammoman wrote:

This causes a number of problems , I cannot appeal this decision

You actually can, technically, but it involves getting a judicial review in the High Court. Which, as you can imagine, reduces the number of appeals the Superintendents get...

I am considering legal action against the gardai as i have fulfilled all their requirements and have been refused a licence based , not on legal grounds but on a personal ideal of the superintendant that he fully knows cannot be acheived . ie. being a member of an approved range ... . :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

You can't actually sue him for it though. What you do is appeal to the High Court for a Judicial Review of the Super's decision. Odds are that the NARGC would help with this.

macnas

Note to self: join the NARGC

macnas

This maybe a bit off the wall but..... would it be unconstitutional for a Superintendent not to recognise an approved facility in Northern Ireland, Article 3 and all that???? ........ Straws and Clutching I hear you say

Is there a Senior Counsel in the House?????

Sparks

A body which combines the two

It wouldn't even arise macnas, Northern Ireland is another jurisdiction so the Gardai couldn't approve the range themselves, and if there's no PSNI-Gardai cooperation on listing approved ranges, then it's not the Super's fault.

(note, I'm not a soliciter, so if you want to pursue that avenue, seek one out!)

civdef

I tried that one as well , they said that I would need a safe place to use a pistol and that the only safe place would be a pistol range !

That of course is nonsense. Anywhere safe to shoot a .22lr is more than safe enough for a pistol. It looks like you need to start looking at legal advice, or maybe a meeting with the super in question.

Sparks

A body which combines the two

Anywhere safe to shoot a .22lr is more than safe enough for a pistol.

Er, not necessarily! Anywhere outdoors would be safe enough for most pistols
Indoor .22 ranges like DURC and RRPC propably wouldn't be safe for .45ACPs, for example. And then there's that 7.62mm pistol which someone was shooting in Bisley at 1000yds...

Ammoman

A body which combines the two

Sparks wrote:

You actually can, technically, but it involves getting a judicial review in the High Court. Which, as you can imagine, reduces the number of appeals the Superintendents get...


You can't actually sue him for it though. What you do is appeal to the High Court for a Judicial Review of the Super's decision. Odds are that the NARGC would help with this.

Whats involved in getting a judicial Review ?

Do you agree that I would have a case ?

Is it worth persuing ?

how long would it take ?

Ammoman

A body which combines the two

Sparks wrote:

Er, not necessarily! Anywhere outdoors would be safe enough for most pistols
Indoor .22 ranges like DURC and RRPC propably wouldn't be safe for .45ACPs, for example. And then there's that 7.62mm pistol which someone was shooting in Bisley at 1000yds...

Not according to my station . They will not accept private land as a safe place to target shoot , I explained that I shoot over in excess of 1000 acres and it made no difference , i have tried to fulfill all their requirements but every time i have hit a wall , i must add that I have never been refused a licence before and am very unhappy at being refused this one . :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Sparks

A body which combines the two

Ammoman wrote:

Whats involved in getting a judicial Review ?

You have to apply to the high court first to see if you can have a judicial review. Sounds like that wouldn't be a problem. Then there's the review itself. Again, going by what you've posted here, it sounds like you'd have the decision sent back. Here's the kicker - the court cannot order the licence granted, at most they can say that the decision wasn't made properly and that the garda has to make it again with more justification. Up till now, that's always meant the applicant has gotten the licence - in fact in most cases, the garda (you have to take the individual garda to court, not the DoJ or Garda HQ) settles it on the steps by issuing the licence. Which is great for you, but sadly doesn't set a legal precedent so until a proper firearms bill is drafted which sets up an actual appeals process, everyone given hassle has to apply for a review

Do you agree that I would have a case ?

From what you've said, yes.

Is it worth persuing ?

That's something only you can answer - you're looking at a risk in terms of money for costs, and it will take time, and it may set that garda against you personally for years. If it's worth it to you, then I suggest you call your soliciter if you have one, and the NARGC to discuss it with them (I think they have a regular barrister for this kind of thing, but I don't know for sure).

how long would it take ?

A few months at least. Maybe up to a year from start to finish? The soliciter could give you a better estimate.

civdef

Have they given you the refusal in writing? AFAIK they have to do so , setting out the exact reasons. Seeing as safety is the reason given, that should include an outline of what safewty standard is being applied.